Out of the blue, my faithfull old Hoover washer tripped the RCD on my consumer unit.

After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is powered on at the socket, but as soon as I turn the control to anything other than 'off' the RCD trips.

The strange thing is that I've left the washing machine unplugged and yet the RCD still tripped a couple more times, but seems to have settled now and been ok for a few hours.

So, two questions:-
1. Any idea why the RCD might be tripping when machine is not plugged in (I'm assuming it is the machine that is faulty)

2. Assuming the machine is faulty, anyone know where to start looking for what could be causing the imbalance? Don't want to invest in a new machine if this one could be fixed easily/cheaply.

Note that the ring main MCB is not tripping, just the RCD for all the downstairs breakers.

I have electrical knowledge and multimeters etc. Just seeking opionions on what might be most likely.

Thanks, as always, for sharing your knowledge and experience.

wrote:

I have electrical knowledge and multimeters etc. Just seeking opionions on what might be most likely.

could be leakage of the mains filter in the machine, if you test on the
plug of the washing machine, what impedance do you see across E&L, and
E&N ... megger would be better than a multimeter if you have one.


Could be a chafed cable connection e.g. neutral to earth (if it was live
to earth or to neutral it would be fuses or MCBs tripping)

On 12/02/2019 15:18, wrote:
Out of the blue, my faithfull old Hoover washer tripped the RCD on my
consumer unit.

After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is powered on at
the socket, but as soon as I turn the control to anything other than
'off' the RCD trips.

The strange thing is that I've left the washing machine unplugged and
yet the RCD still tripped a couple more times, but seems to have
settled now and been ok for a few hours.

You have an 'almost' trip somewhere else.

The washing ,machine is simply taking it over te dege

In my case the last two times it has been water on electrics due to
plumbing leaks.



So, two questions:- 1. Any idea why the RCD might be tripping when
machine is not plugged in (I'm assuming it is the machine that is
faulty)

That may not be a valid assumption



--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

On 12/02/2019 15:27, Andy Burns wrote:
wrote:

I have electrical knowledge and multimeters etc.Â* Just seeking
opionions on what might be most likely.

could be leakage of the mains filter in the machine, if you test on the
plug of the washing machine, what impedance do you see across E&L, and
E&N ... megger would be better than a multimeter if you have one.


Could be a chafed cable connection e.g. neutral to earth (if it was live
to earth or to neutral it would be fuses or MCBs tripping)

Did you read the bit where he said 'it tripped with the washing machine
UNPLUGGED

Clearly the fault is not with the washing machine: that is simply the
trigger.




--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

On 12/02/2019 15:18, wrote:
Out of the blue, my faithfull old Hoover washer tripped the RCD on my consumer unit.

After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is powered on at the socket, but as soon as I turn the control to anything other than 'off' the RCD trips.

The strange thing is that I've left the washing machine unplugged and yet the RCD still tripped a couple more times, but seems to have settled now and been ok for a few hours.

So, two questions:-
1. Any idea why the RCD might be tripping when machine is not plugged in (I'm assuming it is the machine that is faulty)

2. Assuming the machine is faulty, anyone know where to start looking for what could be causing the imbalance? Don't want to invest in a new machine if this one could be fixed easily/cheaply.

Note that the ring main MCB is not tripping, just the RCD for all the downstairs breakers.

I have electrical knowledge and multimeters etc. Just seeking opionions on what might be most likely.

Thanks, as always, for sharing your knowledge and experience.

The RCD is looking as the cumulative earth leakage across all the
circuits connected to it. So it is likely that several items are adding
up to enough to cause a trip but no one item will be enough to trip it.

Progressively test the leakage of the likely culprits one at a time.
best to do the tests at mains voltage or with a megger tester as many
leaks will be voltage dependent and your LV ohm meter possibly will not
show up a fault.

Things with heating elements are worth looking at first cooker rings,
oven, dishwasher, immersion etc
Second are things with RFI filters in where capacitors have gone leaky.

On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 07:18:07 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Out of the blue, my faithfull old Hoover washer tripped the RCD on my consumer unit.

After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is powered on at the socket, but as soon as I turn the control to anything other than 'off' the RCD trips.

snip

When mine was doing that it was carbon (brush) dust on / around the
motor and blowing it out with a compressor fixed it.

In our case it was tripping when power was supplied at the wall,
*even* if the machine was off.

Cheers, T i m

More likely to be a pin hole in a hose near some electrical part. After all
those internal hoses do get a pounding on spin you know. I'm rather
intrigued by the memory effect of your cut out device myself. Are we totally
sure that the device itself is not suddenly ultra sensitive. Any chance of
swapping one from another circuit to prove its the appliance given the trips
when the device is unplugged.
Brian

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"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
wrote:

I have electrical knowledge and multimeters etc. Just seeking opionions
on what might be most likely.

could be leakage of the mains filter in the machine, if you test on the
plug of the washing machine, what impedance do you see across E&L, and E&N
... megger would be better than a multimeter if you have one.


Could be a chafed cable connection e.g. neutral to earth (if it was live
to earth or to neutral it would be fuses or MCBs tripping)

On Tuesday, 12 February 2019 15:18:10 UTC, wrote:
Out of the blue, my faithfull old Hoover washer tripped the RCD on my consumer unit.

After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is powered on at the socket, but as soon as I turn the control to anything other than 'off' the RCD trips.

The strange thing is that I've left the washing machine unplugged and yet the RCD still tripped a couple more times, but seems to have settled now and been ok for a few hours.

So, two questions:-
1. Any idea why the RCD might be tripping when machine is not plugged in (I'm assuming it is the machine that is faulty)

2. Assuming the machine is faulty, anyone know where to start looking for what could be causing the imbalance? Don't want to invest in a new machine if this one could be fixed easily/cheaply.

Note that the ring main MCB is not tripping, just the RCD for all the downstairs breakers.

I have electrical knowledge and multimeters etc. Just seeking opionions on what might be most likely.

Thanks, as always, for sharing your knowledge and experience.

Look for the faulty appliance(s) by resistance testing from L+N to E or case with it unplugged & its power switch on. Using a multimeter will often pick up leaky items, a megger more reliably does.


NT

Yes also any anti surge socket bars as well.
Brian

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The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
...
On 12/02/2019 15:18, wrote:
Out of the blue, my faithfull old Hoover washer tripped the RCD on my
consumer unit.

After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is powered on at the
socket, but as soon as I turn the control to anything other than 'off'
the RCD trips.

The strange thing is that I've left the washing machine unplugged and yet
the RCD still tripped a couple more times, but seems to have settled now
and been ok for a few hours.

So, two questions:-
1. Any idea why the RCD might be tripping when machine is not plugged in
(I'm assuming it is the machine that is faulty)

2. Assuming the machine is faulty, anyone know where to start looking for
what could be causing the imbalance? Don't want to invest in a new
machine if this one could be fixed easily/cheaply.

Note that the ring main MCB is not tripping, just the RCD for all the
downstairs breakers.

I have electrical knowledge and multimeters etc. Just seeking opionions
on what might be most likely.

Thanks, as always, for sharing your knowledge and experience.

The RCD is looking as the cumulative earth leakage across all the circuits
connected to it. So it is likely that several items are adding up to
enough to cause a trip but no one item will be enough to trip it.

Progressively test the leakage of the likely culprits one at a time. best
to do the tests at mains voltage or with a megger tester as many leaks
will be voltage dependent and your LV ohm meter possibly will not show up
a fault.

Things with heating elements are worth looking at first cooker rings,
oven, dishwasher, immersion etc
Second are things with RFI filters in where capacitors have gone leaky.

No you have a cumulative issue here. Not just one device. I'd most certainly
remove everything of that ring and test the washer on its own.
Brian

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Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 07:18:07 -0800 (PST), wrote:

Out of the blue, my faithfull old Hoover washer tripped the RCD on my
consumer unit.

After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is powered on at the
socket, but as soon as I turn the control to anything other than 'off' the
RCD trips.

snip

When mine was doing that it was carbon (brush) dust on / around the
motor and blowing it out with a compressor fixed it.

In our case it was tripping when power was supplied at the wall,
*even* if the machine was off.

Cheers, T i m

On 12/02/2019 15:18, wrote:
Out of the blue, my faithfull old Hoover washer tripped the RCD on my consumer unit.

After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is powered on at the socket, but as soon as I turn the control to anything other than 'off' the RCD trips.

The strange thing is that I've left the washing machine unplugged and yet the RCD still tripped a couple more times, but seems to have settled now and been ok for a few hours.

So, two questions:-
1. Any idea why the RCD might be tripping when machine is not plugged in (I'm assuming it is the machine that is faulty)

Either something else leaking and the washer just takes it over the
threshold, or, more likely, a faulty RCD.

Bill

wrote

Out of the blue, my faithfull old Hoover washer tripped the RCD on my
consumer unit.

After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is powered on at the
socket,
but as soon as I turn the control to anything other than 'off' the RCD
trips.

The strange thing is that I've left the washing machine unplugged
and yet the RCD still tripped a couple more times,

That means the RCD itself is likely faulty, try replacing it.

In theory it could be a wiring fault to the socket you
plug the washer into, but thats not as easy to test for

but seems to have settled now and been ok for a few hours.

So, two questions:-
1. Any idea why the RCD might be tripping when machine is not plugged in

Two obvious possibilitys are a faulty RCD and
a wiring fault with the wiring to that socket.

(I'm assuming it is the machine that is faulty)

You can't assume that with those symptoms.

2. Assuming the machine is faulty,

Looks unlikely given that it does trip at time when its unplugged.

anyone know where to start looking for
what could be causing the imbalance?

Most likely a wire has come adrift or is charred etc or water has got
in where it shouldnt, but that wont be the case with your washer.

Don't want to invest in a new machine if this one could be fixed
easily/cheaply.

Note that the ring main MCB is not tripping,
just the RCD for all the downstairs breakers.

I have electrical knowledge and multimeters etc.
Just seeking opionions on what might be most likely.

Most likely the RCD is faulty but it can easily be the wiring to the socket.

Thanks, as always, for sharing your knowledge and experience.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
wrote:

I have electrical knowledge and multimeters etc. Just seeking opionions
on what might be most likely.

could be leakage of the mains filter in the machine,

No, because it has tripped with the washer not even plugged in.

if you test on the
plug of the washing machine, what impedance do you see across E&L, and E&N
... megger would be better than a multimeter if you have one.


Could be a chafed cable connection e.g. neutral to earth (if it was live
to earth or to neutral it would be fuses or MCBs tripping)

On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 18:16:12 -0000, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

No you have a cumulative issue here. Not just one device.

I didn't suggest otherwise Brian. However, if the WM causes an
overload it could well also be part of the problem.

Cheers, T i m

Brian Gaff wrote

More likely to be a pin hole in a hose near some electrical part.

Nope, because the RCD still trips occasionally with the washer not even
plugged in.

After all those internal hoses do get a pounding on spin you know. I'm
rather intrigued by the memory effect of your cut out device myself.

The explanation is obvious, faulty RCD, faulty wiring or some other
device that is leaking not quite enough to trip the RCD and the
washer turned on adds enough more of a leakage to trip the RCD.

Are we totally sure that the device itself is not suddenly ultra
sensitive. Any chance of swapping one from another circuit to prove its
the appliance given the trips when the device is unplugged.

Better to unplug everything else plugged in first
to check if that’s what is leading, not the washer.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
wrote:

I have electrical knowledge and multimeters etc. Just seeking opionions
on what might be most likely.

could be leakage of the mains filter in the machine, if you test on the
plug of the washing machine, what impedance do you see across E&L, and
E&N ... megger would be better than a multimeter if you have one.


Could be a chafed cable connection e.g. neutral to earth (if it was live
to earth or to neutral it would be fuses or MCBs tripping)

Wow! Just wow! Thanks so much guys - this is all really good advice.

It did strike me that it could be the RCD at fault. I will run a long cable to a socket that's hung off the other RCD and see if the washer still trips it. I can also plug the washer directly into a portable 30mA trip RCD.

The suggestion re carbon in the motor could well be worth looking at. I reaplced the brushes in the motor with new ones about 3 months ago, so it could be 'dusty' in there. That said, it trips even when the control knob is set to somethign that doesn't immediately run the motor.

Classic case of trying to think what else has changed, isn't it. There are some recenlty fitted under-cupboard/over-worktop lights. They seemed decent fittings when I bought them, but after running for a few hours, the 20W Halogen G4 bulbs caused some of the plastic to melt. Nice huh! I've replaced them with 1.7W LED lamps, so they will run cooler. But that was done 2 days ago, so maybe a culprit. (Though they were all switched off when the trip happened. It looked very much like the washer tripping it, but there are some good points here about why the washer might be just taking it over the edge).

Thanks to all - I will report back in the morning. Cheers

On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 12:10:16 -0800 (PST), wrote:

snip

The suggestion re carbon in the motor could well be worth looking at. I reaplced the brushes in the motor with new ones about 3 months ago, so it could be 'dusty' in there.

Mine was as I saw when I blew it out (outdoors).

That said, it trips even when the control knob is set to somethign that doesn't immediately run the motor.

I think one side of he motor can be energised, even if it isn't
actually doing anything and that can then cause a leak to ground.

A (potentially) simple test would be to unplug the motor (often a plug
on the side or end of a short cable) and see what happens then. No RCD
trip the chances are it is the carbon issue.

Cheers, T i m

wrote :
The suggestion re carbon in the motor could well be worth looking at. I
reaplced the brushes in the motor with new ones about 3 months ago, so it
could be 'dusty' in there. That said, it trips even when the control knob is
set to somethign that doesn't immediately run the motor.

Be aware that a neutral to earth leakage can also cause a trip, not
just a live to earth leakage - many people forget this. So even an item
turned off/ live disconnected can still cause an RCD to trip if it is
plugged in, yet turned off.

On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 23:36:41 +0000, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

wrote :
The suggestion re carbon in the motor could well be worth looking at.
I reaplced the brushes in the motor with new ones about 3 months ago,
so it could be 'dusty' in there. That said, it trips even when the
control knob is set to somethign that doesn't immediately run the
motor.

Be aware that a neutral to earth leakage can also cause a trip, not just
a live to earth leakage - many people forget this. So even an item
turned off/ live disconnected can still cause an RCD to trip if it is
plugged in, yet turned off.

Doesn't really apply to the OP. Unless there is a magic earth/neutral
connection when unplugged.



--
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wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 12/02/2019 20:10, wrote:
Wow! Just wow! Thanks so much guys - this is all really good advice.

It did strike me that it could be the RCD at fault. I will run a long cable to a socket that's hung off the other RCD and see if the washer still trips it. I can also plug the washer directly into a portable 30mA trip RCD.

The suggestion re carbon in the motor could well be worth looking at. I reaplced the brushes in the motor with new ones about 3 months ago, so it could be 'dusty' in there. That said, it trips even when the control knob is set to somethign that doesn't immediately run the motor.

Classic case of trying to think what else has changed, isn't it. There are some recenlty fitted under-cupboard/over-worktop lights. They seemed decent fittings when I bought them, but after running for a few hours, the 20W Halogen G4 bulbs caused some of the plastic to melt. Nice huh! I've replaced them with 1.7W LED lamps, so they will run cooler. But that was done 2 days ago, so maybe a culprit. (Though they were all switched off when the trip happened. It looked very much like the washer tripping it, but there are some good points here about why the washer might be just taking it over the edge).

Thanks to all - I will report back in the morning. Cheers


Two things have tripped me up before.

1/. Neutral earth shirt somewhere.
2/. Water on wiring somewhere.

Bothe of these make the whole system more senstive, but do not
necessarily flip the trip.

Actual hard cases of serious appliance earth leakage have been somewhat
less.



--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 13 Feb 2019 01:33:14 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 23:36:41 +0000, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

wrote :
The suggestion re carbon in the motor could well be worth looking at.
I reaplced the brushes in the motor with new ones about 3 months ago,
so it could be 'dusty' in there. That said, it trips even when the
control knob is set to somethign that doesn't immediately run the
motor.

Be aware that a neutral to earth leakage can also cause a trip, not just
a live to earth leakage - many people forget this. So even an item
turned off/ live disconnected can still cause an RCD to trip if it is
plugged in, yet turned off.

Doesn't really apply to the OP. Unless there is a magic earth/neutral
connection when unplugged.

But how would that apply to:

"Out of the blue, my faithful old Hoover washer tripped the RCD on my
consumer unit.

After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is powered on at
the socket, but as soon as I turn the control to anything other than
'off' the RCD trips."

The WM *must* be playing a part, even if it isn't the only player?

And can we assume this hasn't always been the case and may have some
connection with the OP recently changing the brushes (and therefore
the previous brushes would be spread inside the motor and
surroundings)?

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On 13 Feb 2019 01:33:14 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 23:36:41 +0000, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

wrote :
The suggestion re carbon in the motor could well be worth looking at.
I reaplced the brushes in the motor with new ones about 3 months ago,
so it could be 'dusty' in there. That said, it trips even when the
control knob is set to somethign that doesn't immediately run the
motor.

Be aware that a neutral to earth leakage can also cause a trip, not just
a live to earth leakage - many people forget this. So even an item
turned off/ live disconnected can still cause an RCD to trip if it is
plugged in, yet turned off.

Doesn't really apply to the OP. Unless there is a
magic earth/neutral connection when unplugged.

But how would that apply to:

"Out of the blue, my faithful old Hoover washer
tripped the RCD on my consumer unit.

After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is
powered on at the socket, but as soon as I turn the
control to anything other than 'off' the RCD trips."

Some other appliance or the wiring has a significant
leakage so that it only needs the hoover to add a bit
more to see the RCD trip, or the RCD is flaky.

The WM *must* be playing a part, even if it isn't the only player?

Yes, but that's clearly not the fundamental problem
given that it does still trip a bit with the wm unplugged.

And can we assume this hasn't always been the case

Yes.

and may have some connection with
the OP recently changing the brushes

Doesn't explain why it still trips at times with the washer unplugged.

(and therefore the previous brushes would be
spread inside the motor and surroundings)?

Doesn't explain why it still trips at times with the washer unplugged.

Bob Eager used his keyboard to write :
Doesn't really apply to the OP. Unless there is a magic earth/neutral
connection when unplugged.

I did spot that, but worth pointing out anyway as it causes so much
regular confusion.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
wrote :
The suggestion re carbon in the motor could well be worth looking at.
I reaplced the brushes in the motor with new ones about 3 months ago,
so it could be 'dusty' in there. That said, it trips even when the
control knob is set to somethign that doesn't immediately run the
motor.

Be aware that a neutral to earth leakage can also cause a trip, not
just a live to earth leakage - many people forget this. So even an item
turned off/ live disconnected can still cause an RCD to trip if it is
plugged in, yet turned off.

but very rarely if it's unplugged

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Wed, 13 Feb 2019 09:19:03 +0000, T i m wrote:

On 13 Feb 2019 01:33:14 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Tue, 12 Feb 2019 23:36:41 +0000, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

wrote :
The suggestion re carbon in the motor could well be worth looking at.
I reaplced the brushes in the motor with new ones about 3 months ago,
so it could be 'dusty' in there. That said, it trips even when the
control knob is set to somethign that doesn't immediately run the
motor.

Be aware that a neutral to earth leakage can also cause a trip, not
just a live to earth leakage - many people forget this. So even an
item turned off/ live disconnected can still cause an RCD to trip if
it is plugged in, yet turned off.

Doesn't really apply to the OP. Unless there is a magic earth/neutral
connection when unplugged.

But how would that apply to:

"Out of the blue, my faithful old Hoover washer tripped the RCD on my
consumer unit.

After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is powered on at the
socket, but as soon as I turn the control to anything other than 'off'
the RCD trips."

Well, he also said:
"The strange thing is that I've left the washing machine unplugged and yet
the RCD still tripped a couple more times"

The WM *must* be playing a part, even if it isn't the only player?

I think so too! There is something very marginal, and the WM may have a
minor leak (e.g. heating element).

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
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On 13/02/2019 21:49, Bob Eager wrote:
The WM*must* be playing a part, even if it isn't the only player?
I think so too! There is something very marginal, and the WM may have a
minor leak (e.g. heating element).

almost any load that puts a momentary pulse on the mains will add to
leakage current via RFI caps that are effectively between live and earth.

If you have a neutral/earth short the trip will be acting more like a
current trip anyway. Anything wiill tip it over the edge.


--
€œPeople believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, ones
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
ones suitability to be taken seriously.€�

Paul Krugman

In article ,
scribeth thus
Out of the blue, my faithfull old Hoover washer tripped the RCD on my consumer
unit.

After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is powered on at the socket,
but as soon as I turn the control to anything other than 'off' the RCD trips.

The strange thing is that I've left the washing machine unplugged and yet the
RCD still tripped a couple more times, but seems to have settled now and been ok
for a few hours.

So, two questions:-
1. Any idea why the RCD might be tripping when machine is not plugged in (I'm
assuming it is the machine that is faulty)

2. Assuming the machine is faulty, anyone know where to start looking for what
could be causing the imbalance? Don't want to invest in a new machine if this
one could be fixed easily/cheaply.

Note that the ring main MCB is not tripping, just the RCD for all the downstairs
breakers.

I have electrical knowledge and multimeters etc. Just seeking opionions on what
might be most likely.

Thanks, as always, for sharing your knowledge and experience.

Some appliances around the house have a bit of earth leakage thats when
the Live line supply is going back to the neutral at the substation end
via a path other then the neutral supply.

The principal of the RCD is to monitor the current IN on the live
incomer and then OUT on the neutral no matter what the overall actual
current is, its the balance between them, current flowing in MUST be the
same as that going OUT on the neutral line any that's not the same i.e.
leaking to Earth and NOT returning via the Neutral line it will if it
exceeds the trips rated tripping level then the trip will just go on a
trip;!

So in your instance there is likely to be a bit of equipment thats got
some leakage, it might be say around 20 milliamps now thats below a 30
milliamp RCD so all's well.

Now add in something else thats got some leakage say its a bit of gear
like a washing machine thats got say 15 milliamps "ma" for short! Then
you can see that added 20 and 15 makes 35 which is now in excess of the
trips rated current - not good!..

Some PC gear can and does have a small amount of leakage many PC's all
on the same circuit can cause tripping. However in a domestic situation
Cooker hotplates, Immersion heaters, heating elements in washing
machines, same in dishwashers, motors in washers anywhere where water
can get into the electric's will cause leakage.


One other real PITA with trips is the Earth Neutral short this doesn't
immeaditly cause a trip its the same principal live in must equal
neutral out here the neutral is connected to earth so some current is
leaking away Via earth instead of the neutral.

If nothing is switched on then the trip will remain OK but if something
is switched on and it DOES NOT have to have any leakage at all in it at
all, it can be earth free if the current now rises so that more than the
nominal 30 ma is going away via the earth short then out will go the
trip.

This can be a sod to find and cause a lot of confusion needs someone
with a multimeter to test for that there should be infinite resistance
between earth and BOTH the live and Neutral conductors in the wiring.

HTH...


--
Tony Sayer

Update:

Well, this is proving an odd one!

I have had no more RCD trips whilst the washing machine is unplugged, so maybe just coincidence before that the cct tripped without it plugged in.

I took the advice to remove the motor and blow out any carbon dust. Actually, there wasn't really any dust there and all looked in good order with the brushes. I plugged the WM back in, with the motor disconnected and there was no RCD trip.

I then tried it with the newly cleaned motor reconnected and still no trip RCD. Hooray! Except that was a little premature.

I ran the machine with the back off and all tickety-boo. But when I pushed it back under the worktop and put some washing in, it ran for only a few minutes before tripping the RCD. Drats!

So this time, a full test with a different cct/RCD and still it trips the RCD, so I think that rules out the RCD.

I've dismantled the whole front and got the control panel off. Checked the PCB over and no sign of burning or anything like that.

When it's all connected, I got these strange resistance readings:-

Switched off gives:-
E-N = 500KOhms (all approx)
E-L = 700 KOhms

Switched on gives:-
E-L = 800 KOhms
E-N = 980 KOhms

Switch back off gives (strange this):-
E-L = 1.5 MOhms
E-N = 1.5 MOhms

Testing across the mains filter that is at the back of the machine, immediately connected to the incoming cable, gives:-
E-L = 330 M Ohms
E-N = short (0-ish Ohms)

If I disconnect the front control panel then plugging in the WM doesn't trip the RCD. But if I reconnect everything back up, then it trips immediately.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about those filter things, but is that E-N short correct? Could it be the filter that's duff?

The control panel has a big sealed switch for the main control know, so I've no idea what the contacts are like inside. Moreover, I don't know if it's possible to buy another panel (economically at least) or if it's just time for a new washing machine.

Thanks again gents for all your expertise. Hoping someone might know a next step to try.

wrote:

Update:

Well, this is proving an odd one!

I have had no more RCD trips whilst the washing machine is unplugged, so
maybe just coincidence before that the cct tripped without it plugged in.

I took the advice to remove the motor and blow out any carbon dust.
Actually, there wasn't really any dust there and all looked in good order
with the brushes. I plugged the WM back in, with the motor disconnected
and there was no RCD trip.

I then tried it with the newly cleaned motor reconnected and still no trip
RCD. Hooray! Except that was a little premature.

I ran the machine with the back off and all tickety-boo. But when I
pushed it back under the worktop and put some washing in, it ran for only
a few minutes before tripping the RCD. Drats!

So this time, a full test with a different cct/RCD and still it trips the
RCD, so I think that rules out the RCD.

I've dismantled the whole front and got the control panel off. Checked
the PCB over and no sign of burning or anything like that.

When it's all connected, I got these strange resistance readings:-

Switched off gives:- E-N = 500KOhms (all approx) E-L = 700 KOhms

Switched on gives:- E-L = 800 KOhms E-N = 980 KOhms

Switch back off gives (strange this):- E-L = 1.5 MOhms E-N = 1.5 MOhms

Testing across the mains filter that is at the back of the machine,
immediately connected to the incoming cable, gives:- E-L = 330 M Ohms E-N
= short (0-ish Ohms)

If I disconnect the front control panel then plugging in the WM doesn't
trip the RCD. But if I reconnect everything back up, then it trips
immediately.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about those filter things, but is that E-N
short correct? Could it be the filter that's duff?

The control panel has a big sealed switch for the main control know, so
I've no idea what the contacts are like inside. Moreover, I don't know if
it's possible to buy another panel (economically at least) or if it's just
time for a new washing machine.

Thanks again gents for all your expertise. Hoping someone might know a
next step to try.

I am assuming these are all readings taken with the machine unplugged
and with a low voltage multimeter rather than a high voltage insulation
tester, and taken across the mains input, may as well be at the plug
pins

The first three sets are fairly consistent, and show significant
leakage, though only in the sense that the leakage is likely to be much
higher when hot and at 240V. It might just be the electronics showing a
slight leakage to earth and of no significance though.

The fourth readings at the mains filter are not consistent and should
not be different from the others as the mains lead has negligible
resistance for this purpose. Either there is an intermittent earth to
neutral short circuit here or you made a mistake. Most likely the
latter, as E-N short would probably trip the RCD regardless of the
machine being on or the front panel being connected. So I shall assume
the fourth set are wrong. By all means repeat them, as an E-N fault
would be highly significant. But would not explain the control panel
connection being relevant. And would be evident in the first three
sets of readings.

Your observation with the control panel may mean the latter is at fault
or may mean the control panel wiring completes some connections,
especially of neutrals, in other parts of the machine.

So not much further forward.

If you can isolate both ends of the heater element then check leakage
from either end to earth. If there is any, this is probably the cause
of the fault. If you can temporarily disconnect the heater and tape the
connectors to it safely enough to turn the machine on with the control
panel connected this would establsh whether the element is at fault.
This could be repeated with other parts, disconnecting both live and
neutral, and if none prevent the fault then it probably is in the
control panel. The only way to test the innards of the control panel
is by standard electronic fault finding methods.

Testing across the mains filter that is at the back of the machine, immediately
connected to the incoming cable, gives:-
E-L = 330 M Ohms
E-N = short (0-ish Ohms)

That shouldn't be like that Earth to Neutral short if the machine is
disconnected from the mains unplugged..

Try that again and report back with the machine unplugged.

If there is an E to N short than these the cause of the problem its one
of those barsteward leaks that won't trigger till you get some current
flowing.

The usual cause of tripping is a Live to earth short in the water
heating element had this more than the once!..

But this filter, can you pull all the leads of it then run those ohms
checks again, make a careful note of which wire goes where or take a pic
of it!.



If I disconnect the front control panel then plugging in the WM doesn't trip the
RCD. But if I reconnect everything back up, then it trips immediately.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about those filter things, but is that E-N short
correct? Could it be the filter that's duff?

The control panel has a big sealed switch for the main control know, so I've no
idea what the contacts are like inside. Moreover, I don't know if it's possible
to buy another panel (economically at least) or if it's just time for a new
washing machine.

Thanks again gents for all your expertise. Hoping someone might know a next
step to try.

--
Tony Sayer

On 16/02/2019 18:50, wrote:
I'm afraid I don't know enough about those filter things, but is that
E-N short correct? Could it be the filter that's duff?

That is massively incorrect.

Double check.


--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

Thanks again for your steer.

I'm with you, Roger, that I think I will have mis-measured. Yes, I was using a low voltage AVO multimeter. I have a mains tester and even an insulation tester but would have to read up how to use them. (I qualified as 16th Edition, years ago, but not made use of this stuff in a long time. What is it they say about the brain - if you don't use it, you lose it!)

If the heater element is most likely to be at fault, I can remove that (after draining down - not easy!) then test that. I expect they are not too expensive to replace, so worth a try.

My alternative is a new washer, which must be circa £350. This one has done about 8 years, so not bad. But I prefer to look after and repair stuff if I can. The modern ones are all so complicated, with LCD displays for goodness sake. It's a washer!

On Sun, 17 Feb 2019 04:14:52 -0800 (PST), Kal Ico
wrote:

Thanks again for your steer.

I'm with you, Roger, that I think I will have mis-measured. Yes, I was using a low voltage AVO multimeter. I have a mains tester and even an insulation tester but would have to read up how to use them. (I qualified as 16th Edition, years ago, but not made use of this stuff in a long time. What is it they say about the brain - if you don't use it, you lose it!)

If you have to read up on how to use an insulation tester, you don't
really have the knowledge needed to diagnose the problem.

16th edition is meaningless. Anyone can pass the regs exam, you do not
have to have had even a miniscule amount of training or experience to
sit and pass the wiring regs test. Unless you have training or
experience, and your request for help on a very simple fault suggests
you haven't, get someone to look at it that does know where to start.

On the plus point most of the "advice" doesn't seem that bad. 'Pity to
have the equipment to diagnose the problem in minutes, yet not have
the solution.

For the solution you have to apply logic. Electrical diagnosis comes
into it, but you need a "system".

If you dig out the instructions for the Megger and have confidence
using it, you are well on your way to success. I would still ask an
electrically qualified aquaintance though :-)

AB

On 17/02/2019 12:14, Kal Ico wrote:
Thanks again for your steer.

I'm with you, Roger, that I think I will have mis-measured. Yes, I was using a low voltage AVO multimeter. I have a mains tester and even an insulation tester but would have to read up how to use them. (I qualified as 16th Edition, years ago, but not made use of this stuff in a long time. What is it they say about the brain - if you don't use it, you lose it!)

If the heater element is most likely to be at fault, I can remove that (after draining down - not easy!) then test that. I expect they are not too expensive to replace, so worth a try.

My alternative is a new washer, which must be circa £350. This one has done about 8 years, so not bad. But I prefer to look after and repair stuff if I can. The modern ones are all so complicated, with LCD displays for goodness sake. It's a washer!

If you are gettinmg trips with the washing machine unplugged IT IS NOT
THE WASHING MACHINE



--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

On 17/02/2019 18:48:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/02/2019 12:14, Kal Ico wrote:
Thanks again for your steer.

I'm with you, Roger, that I think I will have mis-measured.Â* Yes, I
was using a low voltage AVO multimeter.Â* I have a mains tester and
even an insulation tester but would have to read up how to use them.
(I qualified as 16th Edition, years ago, but not made use of this
stuff in a long time.Â* What is it they say about the brain - if you
don't use it, you lose it!)

If the heater element is most likely to be at fault, I can remove that
(after draining down - not easy!)Â* then test that.Â* I expect they are
not too expensive to replace, so worth a try.

My alternative is a new washer, which must be circa £350.Â* This one
has done about 8 years, so not bad.Â* But I prefer to look after and
repair stuff if I can.Â* The modern ones are all so complicated, with
LCD displays for goodness sake.Â* It's a washer!

If you are gettinmg trips with the washing machine unplugged IT IS NOT
THE WASHING MACHINE

Clearly the OP wants a new washing machine. Now they'll have to find
another excuse to buy one.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 17/02/2019 12:14, Kal Ico wrote:
Thanks again for your steer.

I'm with you, Roger, that I think I will have mis-measured. Yes, I was
using a low voltage AVO multimeter. I have a mains tester and even an
insulation tester but would have to read up how to use them. (I
qualified as 16th Edition, years ago, but not made use of this stuff in a
long time. What is it they say about the brain - if you don't use it,
you lose it!)

If the heater element is most likely to be at fault, I can remove that
(after draining down - not easy!) then test that. I expect they are not
too expensive to replace, so worth a try.

My alternative is a new washer, which must be circa £350. This one has
done about 8 years, so not bad. But I prefer to look after and repair
stuff if I can. The modern ones are all so complicated, with LCD
displays for goodness sake. It's a washer!

If you are gettinmg trips with the washing machine unplugged IT IS NOT THE
WASHING MACHINE

But given that he does get trips with the washing machine plugged
in to a different circuit with a different RCD, it does appear that the
washing machine does have a fault and that there is also a separate
fault with the original circuit or whats plugged into it.

On Mon, 18 Feb 2019 08:09:28 +1100, 2987fr, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rot Speed, wrote:

If you are gettinmg trips with the washing machine unplugged IT IS NOT THE
WASHING MACHINE

But

I auto-contradicting mode again, senile idiot? LOL

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing senile Rot:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
MID:

On Sunday, 17 February 2019 12:14:54 UTC, Kal Ico wrote:
Thanks again for your steer.

I'm with you, Roger, that I think I will have mis-measured. Yes, I was using a low voltage AVO multimeter. I have a mains tester and even an insulation tester but would have to read up how to use them. (I qualified as 16th Edition, years ago, but not made use of this stuff in a long time. What is it they say about the brain - if you don't use it, you lose it!)

If the heater element is most likely to be at fault, I can remove that (after draining down - not easy!) then test that. I expect they are not too expensive to replace, so worth a try.

My alternative is a new washer, which must be circa £350. This one has done about 8 years, so not bad. But I prefer to look after and repair stuff if I can. The modern ones are all so complicated, with LCD displays for goodness sake. It's a washer!

Mains voltage insulation tester will give a much clearer picture, but it does look like you've got bad insulation in there somewhere. Once you find it it will quite likely be fixable for anything from nothing to £30 or so.

Draining is trivial, pull the hose off the standpipe and lay it down in a bowl - water runs out.

You can also eliminate the element by disconnecting it at both terminals, see if it runs. That will cause the program to stall in wash mode.


NT

On Tuesday, February 12, 2019 at 3:18:10 PM UTC, Kal Ico wrote:
Out of the blue, my faithfull old Hoover washer tripped the RCD on my consumer unit.

Mains tester plugs like this one
https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Winner-Main...7607277&chn=ps
have some leakage from live and neutral to earth
so can be used to trip RCDs which are almost tripping
which could be useful in finding whats going on.

But I dont know how many milliamps they leak, anyone know?

George

Latest news:

Following the earlier steer that the most likely component to break is the heater element in the washer, I took the connections off that.

It then does not trip the RCD and I was able to select the drain programme then the spin programme, without problem.

But then the strange bit - when the spin finished I reconnected the heating element and it still didn't trip the RCD.

Testing the resistance from each terminal on the heating element to Earth, with the low-voltage meter, it was about half a Meg Ohm on each. Could this be a fault that only shows up when under power and/or heated?

Just to be clear, there have been NO further trips of the RCD when the washer is unplugged. Maybe just a coincidence or maybe that ring has high earth leakage anyway. Not sure.