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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#41
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
"Kal Ico" wrote in message ... Latest news: Following the earlier steer that the most likely component to break is the heater element in the washer, I took the connections off that. It then does not trip the RCD and I was able to select the drain programme then the spin programme, without problem. But then the strange bit - when the spin finished I reconnected the heating element and it still didn't trip the RCD. Testing the resistance from each terminal on the heating element to Earth, with the low-voltage meter, it was about half a Meg Ohm on each. Could this be a fault that only shows up when under power and/or heated? Just to be clear, there have been NO further trips of the RCD when the washer is unplugged. Maybe just a coincidence Unlikely given that it happened more than once with the washing machine unplugged. or maybe that ring has high earth leakage anyway. Or something else plugged into that ring has an intermittent fault. Not sure. |
#42
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
On Monday, 18 February 2019 22:21:43 UTC, wrote:
On Monday, 18 February 2019 22:12:50 UTC, Kal Ico wrote: Latest news: Following the earlier steer that the most likely component to break is the heater element in the washer, I took the connections off that. It then does not trip the RCD and I was able to select the drain programme then the spin programme, without problem. But then the strange bit - when the spin finished I reconnected the heating element and it still didn't trip the RCD. Testing the resistance from each terminal on the heating element to Earth, with the low-voltage meter, it was about half a Meg Ohm on each. Could this be a fault that only shows up when under power and/or heated? Just to be clear, there have been NO further trips of the RCD when the washer is unplugged. Maybe just a coincidence or maybe that ring has high earth leakage anyway. Not sure. Half a meg at low voltage is not right, suspect it has a problem. That R figure will fall as higher V is applied. The heater elephant is only powered up during the wash cycle, and half a meg from N to E doesn't matter. I'd test the element resistance at full voltage. Leaky elements are cheap enough to replace. NT Thanks. New element ordered. Cheers |
#43
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
On 18/02/2019 22:12, Kal Ico wrote:
Testing the resistance from each terminal on the heating element to Earth, with the low-voltage meter, it was about half a Meg Ohm on each. Could this be a fault that only shows up when under power and/or heated? Oh yes. Half a meg is WAY OK. I've seen trippy elements at around 10k Faults I HAVE located that caused trips are as follows. Water in sewage treatment motor. Water dripping onto boiler electrics Water dripping into lighting circuit Water dripping into motorised valve Winding to armature leak aroudn 3k in washing machine motor. Element to earth leak of around 3K in cooker grill element. Note that actual appliance issues have been fewer than other issues affecting wiring etc. -- In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act. - George Orwell |
#44
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
On 18/02/2019 22:38, Kal Ico wrote:
On Monday, 18 February 2019 22:21:43 UTC, wrote: On Monday, 18 February 2019 22:12:50 UTC, Kal Ico wrote: Latest news: Following the earlier steer that the most likely component to break is the heater element in the washer, I took the connections off that. It then does not trip the RCD and I was able to select the drain programme then the spin programme, without problem. But then the strange bit - when the spin finished I reconnected the heating element and it still didn't trip the RCD. Testing the resistance from each terminal on the heating element to Earth, with the low-voltage meter, it was about half a Meg Ohm on each. Could this be a fault that only shows up when under power and/or heated? Just to be clear, there have been NO further trips of the RCD when the washer is unplugged. Maybe just a coincidence or maybe that ring has high earth leakage anyway. Not sure. Half a meg at low voltage is not right, suspect it has a problem. That R figure will fall as higher V is applied. The heater elephant is only powered up during the wash cycle, and half a meg from N to E doesn't matter. I'd test the element resistance at full voltage. Leaky elements are cheap enough to replace. NT Thanks. New element ordered. Cheers Don't be too sure. He is (as usual) talking relative ********. half a meg is 500uA. Well below 30 mA. IME trips happen around the tens of K mark. The elements I have replaced all measured that when cold. Thats not to say they didnt get worse when hot, but they all showed up in the sub 100K zone cold. As did my motor winding to chassis 'short' -- "A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding". Marshall McLuhan |
#45
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/02/2019 22:38, Kal Ico wrote: On Monday, 18 February 2019 22:21:43 UTC, wrote: On Monday, 18 February 2019 22:12:50 UTC, Kal Ico wrote: Latest news: Following the earlier steer that the most likely component to break is the heater element in the washer, I took the connections off that. It then does not trip the RCD and I was able to select the drain programme then the spin programme, without problem. But then the strange bit - when the spin finished I reconnected the heating element and it still didn't trip the RCD. Testing the resistance from each terminal on the heating element to Earth, with the low-voltage meter, it was about half a Meg Ohm on each. Could this be a fault that only shows up when under power and/or heated? Just to be clear, there have been NO further trips of the RCD when the washer is unplugged. Maybe just a coincidence or maybe that ring has high earth leakage anyway. Not sure. Half a meg at low voltage is not right, suspect it has a problem. That R figure will fall as higher V is applied. The heater elephant is only powered up during the wash cycle, and half a meg from N to E doesn't matter. I'd test the element resistance at full voltage. Leaky elements are cheap enough to replace. NT Thanks. New element ordered. Cheers Don't be too sure. He is (as usual) talking relative ********. half a meg is 500uA. Well below 30 mA. IME trips happen around the tens of K mark. The elements I have replaced all measured that when cold. Thats not to say they didnt get worse when hot, but they all showed up in the sub 100K zone cold. As did my motor winding to chassis 'short' I disagree. Any measurable leakage (at least with ordinary instruments outside of a lab) is evidence of impending failure. Anyway, he's got a Megger so can test it on the bench and hopefully let us know the result. He could always heat it with a plumbing blow lamp if it is still borderline. -- Roger Hayter |
#46
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
On 19/02/2019 14:03, Roger Hayter wrote:
I disagree. Any measurable leakage (at least with ordinary instruments outside of a lab) is evidence of impending failure. No it is not. The 'insulation' insde a heating element in particular is not an absolute insulator. It is in general Magnesium oxide. Because that has excellent thermnal conductivity. The great danger inimmersin heaters is water ingress. But if that gets in te ting will show very low resistance Anyway, he's got a Megger so can test it on the bench and hopefully let us know the result. He could always heat it with a plumbing blow lamp if it is still borderline. RCD are designed to cope with some leakage. All elements leak. The question is how much. I dont regard half a megohm as interesting at all. -- €śPeople believe certain stories because everyone important tells them, and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them. Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, ones agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of ones suitability to be taken seriously.€ť Paul Krugman |
#47
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
On Tuesday, 19 February 2019 13:55:36 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/02/2019 22:38, Kal Ico wrote: On Monday, 18 February 2019 22:21:43 UTC, tabbypurr wrote: On Monday, 18 February 2019 22:12:50 UTC, Kal Ico wrote: Latest news: Following the earlier steer that the most likely component to break is the heater element in the washer, I took the connections off that. It then does not trip the RCD and I was able to select the drain programme then the spin programme, without problem. But then the strange bit - when the spin finished I reconnected the heating element and it still didn't trip the RCD. Testing the resistance from each terminal on the heating element to Earth, with the low-voltage meter, it was about half a Meg Ohm on each. Could this be a fault that only shows up when under power and/or heated? Just to be clear, there have been NO further trips of the RCD when the washer is unplugged. Maybe just a coincidence or maybe that ring has high earth leakage anyway. Not sure. Half a meg at low voltage is not right, suspect it has a problem. That R figure will fall as higher V is applied. The heater elephant is only powered up during the wash cycle, and half a meg from N to E doesn't matter. I'd test the element resistance at full voltage. Leaky elements are cheap enough to replace. NT Thanks. New element ordered. Cheers Don't be too sure. He is (as usual) talking relative ********. half a meg is 500uA. Well below 30 mA. IME trips happen around the tens of K mark. The elements I have replaced all measured that when cold. Thats not to say they didnt get worse when hot, but they all showed up in the sub 100K zone cold. As did my motor winding to chassis 'short' Half a meg at 1.5v means it should be tested at higher voltage, which is what I advised the OP to do. I don't know at this point whether he did or not.. NT |
#48
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
"Roger Hayter" wrote in message ... The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 18/02/2019 22:38, Kal Ico wrote: On Monday, 18 February 2019 22:21:43 UTC, wrote: On Monday, 18 February 2019 22:12:50 UTC, Kal Ico wrote: Latest news: Following the earlier steer that the most likely component to break is the heater element in the washer, I took the connections off that. It then does not trip the RCD and I was able to select the drain programme then the spin programme, without problem. But then the strange bit - when the spin finished I reconnected the heating element and it still didn't trip the RCD. Testing the resistance from each terminal on the heating element to Earth, with the low-voltage meter, it was about half a Meg Ohm on each. Could this be a fault that only shows up when under power and/or heated? Just to be clear, there have been NO further trips of the RCD when the washer is unplugged. Maybe just a coincidence or maybe that ring has high earth leakage anyway. Not sure. Half a meg at low voltage is not right, suspect it has a problem. That R figure will fall as higher V is applied. The heater elephant is only powered up during the wash cycle, and half a meg from N to E doesn't matter. I'd test the element resistance at full voltage. Leaky elements are cheap enough to replace. NT Thanks. New element ordered. Cheers Don't be too sure. He is (as usual) talking relative ********. half a meg is 500uA. Well below 30 mA. IME trips happen around the tens of K mark. The elements I have replaced all measured that when cold. Thats not to say they didnt get worse when hot, but they all showed up in the sub 100K zone cold. As did my motor winding to chassis 'short' I disagree. Any measurable leakage (at least with ordinary instruments outside of a lab) is evidence of impending failure. Nope, just a limitation of the technology, most obviously with water heating elements. Anyway, he's got a Megger so can test it on the bench and hopefully let us know the result. He could always heat it with a plumbing blow lamp if it is still borderline. |
#49
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
On 2019-02-19 12:40 p.m., Rod Speed wrote:
"Roger Hayter" wrote in message ... The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 18/02/2019 22:38, Kal Ico wrote: On Monday, 18 February 2019 22:21:43 UTC, * wrote: On Monday, 18 February 2019 22:12:50 UTC, Kal Ico* wrote: Latest news: Following the earlier steer that the most likely component to break is the heater element in the washer, I took the connections off that. It then does not trip the RCD and I was able to select the drain programme then the spin programme, without problem. But then the strange bit - when the spin finished I reconnected the heating element and it still didn't trip the RCD. Testing the resistance from each terminal on the heating element to Earth, with the low-voltage meter, it was about half a Meg Ohm on each. Could this be a fault that only shows up when under power and/or heated? Just to be clear, there have been NO further trips of the RCD when the washer is unplugged.* Maybe just a coincidence or maybe that ring has high earth leakage anyway.* Not sure. Half a meg at low voltage is not right, suspect it has a problem. That R figure will fall as higher V is applied. The heater elephant is only powered up during the wash cycle, and half a meg from N to E doesn't matter. I'd test the element resistance at full voltage. Leaky elements are cheap enough to replace. NT Thanks.* New element ordered.* Cheers Don't be too sure. He is (as usual) talking relative ********. half a meg is 500uA. Well below 30 mA. IME trips happen around the tens of K mark. The elements I have replaced all measured that when cold. Thats not to say they didnt get worse when hot, but they all showed up in the sub 100K zone cold. As did my motor winding to chassis 'short' I disagree.** Any measurable leakage (at least with ordinary instruments outside of a lab) is evidence of impending failure. Nope, just a limitation of the technology, most obviously with water heating elements. Anyway, he's got a Megger so can test it on the bench and hopefully let us know the result. He could always heat it with a plumbing blow lamp if it is still borderline. no he can't |
#50
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
In article , Kal
Ico scribeth thus Latest news: Following the earlier steer that the most likely component to break is the heater element in the washer, I took the connections off that. It then does not trip the RCD and I was able to select the drain programme then the spin programme, without problem. But then the strange bit - when the spin finished I reconnected the heating element and it still didn't trip the RCD. Testing the resistance from each terminal on the heating element to Earth, with the low-voltage meter, it was about half a Meg Ohm on each. Could this be a fault that only shows up when under power and/or heated? Just to be clear, there have been NO further trips of the RCD when the washer is unplugged. Maybe just a coincidence or maybe that ring has high earth leakage anyway. Not sure. Any further with that odd Earth Neutral short on the mains filter?.. Very often heating elements increase their leakage as they warm up least the two or so I've had to replace have!.. -- Tony Sayer |
#51
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
As (I think) Tony pointed out earlier, the elements are cheap enough to replace so I've ordered another one.
I haven't taken the old one out to bench test it at mains voltage, but I can say that I have run two cycles with the element disconnected and neither time did the RCD trip. I have then run two cycles with the element connected and both time it tripped after a minute or two (presumably when it went to heat). On the basis of balance of probabilties and cheapness to replace, I'm going to try a new element and will let you all know what happens. Thanks, as always, for the clever advice. |
#52
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
On 13 Feb 2019 21:49:03 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:
snip After reset, it'll stay untripped when the machine is powered on at the socket, but as soon as I turn the control to anything other than 'off' the RCD trips." Well, he also said: "The strange thing is that I've left the washing machine unplugged and yet the RCD still tripped a couple more times" Yeahbut that didn't negate the WM from 'the issue' as it was tripping more regularly when it was connected? The WM *must* be playing a part, even if it isn't the only player? I think so too! There is something very marginal, and the WM may have a minor leak (e.g. heating element). Agreed (and seems likely from the further info from the OP). As an aside, we have just ordered and I replaced Mum's washing machine. Well, it replaced a replacement she was given years earlier and I found was doomed to fail when I made it functional a bit back. I was given to her by her granddaughter on the grounds that I might be able to fix it and I recently did when her (very) old Hoover finally died (rear ally drum casting corroded away). The Whirlpool was 'crunchy' when you turned the drum by hand and after stripping it down, I found *loads* of calcium loose between the drum and the tub. However, I also noticed loads of corrosion and cracks in the inner spider that supported the back of the drum so told Mum not to use the higher spin speeds (and she wanted to get *some* use out of the WM because 1) she was given it by her GD and 2) she had stored it for some time so wanted to use it out of principal. ;-) The other day she said 'it's leaking and won't spin' and when I went to pull it out ready for the new one, I turned the drum and found it really rattling about and the drive belt was broken and on the floor. ;-) We got her a Bosch like the one our daughter got us as it has one simple program knob and a stop / start button and ours seems to work ok (with an A+++ energy rating or summat). ;-) Cheers, T i m |
#53
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
Latest update (& solved).
Thanks again for all the advice. I replaced the heating element and all is tickety-boo. One thing I did before replacing it was measure the resistance (yes, at low voltage, using my multimeter) between E and the two power terminals on the element. It showed as totally open circuit. Compared to the 500k - 1M Ohm of the old element. (I realise it would have been better to measure at mains but was unable to do that). So, the washer is fixed (for now!) Which leaves the strange thing of the RCD still tripping a couple more times after I first unplugged the washer. I didn't imagine that, and of course there could be this high residual current thing that some of you suggest, with the washer just pushing it over the edge. I also wondered if it could be that the characteristics of an RCD change, even if slightly, if it is repeatedly tripped in a short space of time. This making it a little 'sensitive', so to speak, such that even with the washer unplugged it tripped a couple more times. What do you all think? Seems odd, but it has not tripped at all since and everything is very much back to normal. |
#54
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Electrical advice: Washing machine tripping RCD
Kal Ico wrote
Latest update (& solved). Thanks again for all the advice. Thanks for the washup, not done often enough imo. I replaced the heating element and all is tickety-boo. One thing I did before replacing it was measure the resistance (yes, at low voltage, using my multimeter) between E and the two power terminals on the element. It showed as totally open circuit. Compared to the 500k - 1M Ohm of the old element. (I realise it would have been better to measure at mains but was unable to do that). So, the washer is fixed (for now!) Which leaves the strange thing of the RCD still tripping a couple more times after I first unplugged the washer. I didn't imagine that, Yeah, you definitely have a separate problem there. and of course there could be this high residual current thing that some of you suggest, with the washer just pushing it over the edge. Yeah, thats the most likely possibility. It could also be a marginal RCD that is more trigger sensitive just after its tripped due to the fault in the washing machine too. I also wondered if it could be that the characteristics of an RCD change, even if slightly, if it is repeatedly tripped in a short space of time. It wouldnt be by design, but could well be a marginal. RCD with that result. This making it a little 'sensitive', so to speak, such that even with the washer unplugged it tripped a couple more times. But that would only happen if there is some leakage in one of the other appliances plugged into that circuit or the circuit itself. What do you all think? Seems odd, but it has not tripped at all since and everything is very much back to normal. I wouldnt worry about it unless you normally have a freezer plugged in to that circuit. If you do, and go away for long much, I would try a deliberate leakage that is below the RCD trip current to see if that circuit or RCD is marginal, and do that with and without anything plugged into that circuit and fix the leakage if the RCD does trip with your deliberate leakage below what it should allow. |
#55
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Lonely Psychotic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert! LOL
On Thu, 28 Feb 2019 06:25:28 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again: Kal Ico wrote Latest update (& solved). Thanks again for all the advice. You felt personally addressed when he thanked the people in this thread, you abnormal sociopathic trolling Ozzietard? ****ing HILARIOUS! LOL -- Bill Wright addressing senile Ozzie cretin Rot Speed: "Well you make up a lot of stuff and it's total ******** most of it." MID: |
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