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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Apprentice and Hex keys
Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble
putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? -- Adam |
#2
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On 10/01/19 19:10, ARW wrote:
Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? Imperial vs metric? -- Jeff |
#3
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On 10/01/2019 19:15, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 10/01/19 19:10, ARW wrote: Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? Imperial vs metric? Torx, not hex? -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
#4
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On 10/01/2019 19:10, ARW wrote:
Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? torx ing to much. |
#5
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On Thursday, 10 January 2019 19:10:06 UTC, ARW wrote:
In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Aldi? Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? Lefty loosey righty tighty? Owain |
#6
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 19:15:24 +0000, Jeff Layman
wrote: On 10/01/19 19:10, ARW wrote: Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? Imperial vs metric? +1 Cheers, T i m |
#7
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Apprentice and Hex keys
ARW Wrote in message:
Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? Holding the short end to tighten up the screws? (i.e. Insufficient torque...) -- Jim K ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ |
#8
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On 10/01/2019 19:10, ARW wrote:
Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? I am not sure that I would want to use an all metal tool in that situation, unless I knew the incoming supply was not connected. -- Michael Chare |
#9
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Apprentice and Hex keys
Michael Chare Wrote in message:
On 10/01/2019 19:10, ARW wrote: Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? I am not sure that I would want to use an all metal tool in that situation, unless I knew the incoming supply was not connected. Adam did mention an isolator... -- Jim K ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ |
#10
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On 10/01/2019 19:55, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 19:15:24 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: On 10/01/19 19:10, ARW wrote: Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? Imperial vs metric? +1 Indeed. But at least he came in and said he had a problem. And the problem is now sorted. Obviously never heard of the word imperial before and was amazed at the markings on the tool that he had never noticed. -- Adam |
#11
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On Thursday, 10 January 2019 21:08:45 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 10/01/2019 19:55, T i m wrote: On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 19:15:24 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: On 10/01/19 19:10, ARW wrote: Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? Imperial vs metric? +1 Indeed. But at least he came in and said he had a problem. And the problem is now sorted. Obviously never heard of the word imperial before and was amazed at the markings on the tool that he had never noticed. Where the h does your brainless boss get these kids? |
#12
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Apprentice and Hex keys
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#13
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 21:23:19 -0000 (UTC), Jethro_uk
wrote: On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 21:08:43 +0000, ARW wrote: On 10/01/2019 19:55, T i m wrote: On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 19:15:24 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: On 10/01/19 19:10, ARW wrote: Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? Imperial vs metric? +1 Indeed. But at least he came in and said he had a problem. And the problem is now sorted. Obviously never heard of the word imperial before and was amazed at the markings on the tool that he had never noticed. Oh dear, how will he cope when £sd and feet inches and roods come back ? weg Cheers, T i m |
#14
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On 10/01/2019 21:23, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 21:08:43 +0000, ARW wrote: On 10/01/2019 19:55, T i m wrote: On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 19:15:24 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: On 10/01/19 19:10, ARW wrote: Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? Imperial vs metric? +1 Indeed. But at least he came in and said he had a problem. And the problem is now sorted. Obviously never heard of the word imperial before and was amazed at the markings on the tool that he had never noticed. Oh dear, how will he cope when £sd and feet inches and roods come back ? My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- "two metres of 4 bay 2" |
#15
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On 10/01/2019 20:23, Michael Chare wrote:
On 10/01/2019 19:10, ARW wrote: Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? I am not sure that I would want to use an all metal tool in that situation, unless I knew the incoming supply was not connected. I recall some years ago needing to disconnect and and later reconnect some tails to a henley block. This was an old TN-S install with one of the dodgy pre-war metal clad main cutouts, with ceramic fuse carriers. So I did not fancy having to pull the fuse. Normally a quick tail removal, and replacement on a live henley is easy enough with a set of VDE screw drivers. So this time I was a bit distressed to discover the henley terminals were hex headed, and I did not have an insulated hex driver. Fortunately I did have some hex bits of the right size and a magnetic bit holder. So the easiest thing to do was tape up the holder so there was no exposed metalwork, and then stick it in my (all plastic bodied) cordless drill and use that! -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#16
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On 10/01/2019 21:08, ARW wrote:
Obviously never heard of the word imperial before and was amazed at the markings on the tool that he had never noticed. Understandable, metric has been taught in schools for the past 40+ years. -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
#17
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote:
My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
#18
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Apprentice and Hex keys
wrote in message ... On Thursday, 10 January 2019 21:08:45 UTC, ARW wrote: On 10/01/2019 19:55, T i m wrote: On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 19:15:24 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: On 10/01/19 19:10, ARW wrote: Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? Imperial vs metric? +1 Indeed. But at least he came in and said he had a problem. And the problem is now sorted. Obviously never heard of the word imperial before and was amazed at the markings on the tool that he had never noticed. Where the h does your brainless boss get these kids? Same place everyone else does, the labour market. |
#19
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Apprentice and Hex keys
"alan_m" wrote in message ... On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? Always was and still is here. |
#20
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On 10/01/2019 22:55, alan_m wrote:
On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? No. It was 4" x 2" SteveW |
#21
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On 10-Jan-19 23:33, Steve Walker wrote:
On 10/01/2019 22:55, alan_m wrote: On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? No. It was 4" x 2" Some people always get the wrong end of the stick. -- Sam Plusnet |
#22
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Apprentice and Hex keys
alan_m wrote:
On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? Yes. Before it was planed. -- Roger Hayter |
#23
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On 11/01/2019 00:32, Roger Hayter wrote:
alan_m wrote: On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? Yes. Before it was planed. ...approximately -- "It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere" |
#24
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Apprentice and Hex keys
alan_m wrote:
On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? In USA. |
#25
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Apprentice and Hex keys
Rod Speed wrote:
"alan_m" wrote in message ... On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? Always was and still is here. Always been 4 be 2 here. |
#26
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Apprentice and Hex keys
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#27
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On Friday, 11 January 2019 04:14:24 UTC, FMurtz wrote:
tabbypurr wrote: On Thursday, 10 January 2019 21:08:45 UTC, ARW wrote: On 10/01/2019 19:55, T i m wrote: On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 19:15:24 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: On 10/01/19 19:10, ARW wrote: Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? Imperial vs metric? +1 Indeed. But at least he came in and said he had a problem. And the problem is now sorted. Obviously never heard of the word imperial before and was amazed at the markings on the tool that he had never noticed. Where the h does your brainless boss get these kids? They have to get knowledge from somewhere. If they've got to 16 or 18 without realising there are imperial measurements, I doubt they're about to get any knowledge anywhere. NT |
#28
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Apprentice and Hex keys
"FMurtz" wrote in message ... Rod Speed wrote: "alan_m" wrote in message ... On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? Always was and still is here. Always been 4 be 2 here. Bull****. |
#29
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Apprentice and Hex keys
wrote in message ... On Friday, 11 January 2019 04:14:24 UTC, FMurtz wrote: tabbypurr wrote: On Thursday, 10 January 2019 21:08:45 UTC, ARW wrote: On 10/01/2019 19:55, T i m wrote: On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 19:15:24 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: On 10/01/19 19:10, ARW wrote: Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? Imperial vs metric? +1 Indeed. But at least he came in and said he had a problem. And the problem is now sorted. Obviously never heard of the word imperial before and was amazed at the markings on the tool that he had never noticed. Where the h does your brainless boss get these kids? They have to get knowledge from somewhere. If they've got to 16 or 18 without realising there are imperial measurements, I doubt they're about to get any knowledge anywhere. And yet Adam says he is on the best of the apprentices and he clearly did end up with the knowledge eventually. |
#30
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote:
On 10/01/2019 21:23, Jethro_uk wrote: On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 21:08:43 +0000, ARW wrote: On 10/01/2019 19:55, T i m wrote: On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 19:15:24 +0000, Jeff Layman wrote: On 10/01/19 19:10, ARW wrote: Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? Imperial vs metric? +1 Indeed. But at least he came in and said he had a problem. And the problem is now sorted. Obviously never heard of the word imperial before and was amazed at the markings on the tool that he had never noticed. Oh dear, how will he cope when £sd and feet inches and roods come back ? My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- "two metres of 4 bay 2" Its sold in 300mm (i.e metric foot) increments starting at 300mmm, so 2.0m is not a standard length. 1.8 or 2.1 would be your choices. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#31
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Apprentice and Hex keys
Rod Speed wrote:
"FMurtz" wrote in message ... Rod Speed wrote: "alan_m" wrote in message ... On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? Always was and still is here. Always been 4 be 2 here. Bull****. In my circle I have never heard 2x4 from anyone but yanks |
#32
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Apprentice and Hex keys
On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 23:33:35 +0000, Steve Walker wrote:
On 10/01/2019 22:55, alan_m wrote: On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? No. It was 4" x 2" SteveW Had a problem when re-roofing a brick-built shed (timbers going/gone and sheets cracked a bit). The timbers were ~70 years old and 2x3, so unobtainable nowadays. Combined with the hard mortar that had been shovelled in to fill all the gaps, I spent ages with a an SDS chisel getting it even enough for a full timber frame and to fit the 'generous' 46x72 mm. Even as a smallish child I was upset that 2" wood wasn't 2" - what part of lying is acceptable in trade descriptions? -- Peter. The gods will stay away whilst religions hold sway |
#33
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Apprentice and Hex keys
"FMurtz" wrote in message ... Rod Speed wrote: "FMurtz" wrote in message ... Rod Speed wrote: "alan_m" wrote in message ... On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? Always was and still is here. Always been 4 be 2 here. Bull****. In my circle I have never heard 2x4 from anyone but yanks Then you need a new circle, bad. |
#34
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Apprentice and Hex keys
"PeterC" wrote in message ... On Thu, 10 Jan 2019 23:33:35 +0000, Steve Walker wrote: On 10/01/2019 22:55, alan_m wrote: On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? No. It was 4" x 2" SteveW Had a problem when re-roofing a brick-built shed (timbers going/gone and sheets cracked a bit). The timbers were ~70 years old and 2x3, so unobtainable nowadays. Combined with the hard mortar that had been shovelled in to fill all the gaps, I spent ages with a an SDS chisel getting it even enough for a full timber frame and to fit the 'generous' 46x72 mm. Even as a smallish child I was upset that 2" wood wasn't 2" - what part of lying is acceptable in trade descriptions? That part when it's the undressed dimension used. |
#35
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Apprentice and Hex keys
In message , Roger Hayter
writes alan_m wrote: On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? Yes. Before it was planed. Likely before it was sawn: the saw kerf included in the measurement. Trees have exceptionally funny rules:-) -- Tim Lamb |
#36
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Apprentice and Hex keys
The screws were not actually hex at all?
Brian -- ----- -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "ARW" wrote in message ... Third year apprentice (one of the best we have had) was having trouble putting the meter tails into the mains isolator on some new builds. He was having difficulty tightening up the hex screws. One answer in the office was "You have a **** set of Allen keys" In his defence he replied "They are brand new I only got them on Saturday and I paid for the most expensive of the two pairs available as I don't want **** tools" Anyone care to guess what went wrong:-)? -- Adam |
#38
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Apprentice and Hex keys
"ARW" wrote in message
... Obviously never heard of the word imperial before and was amazed at the markings on the tool that he had never noticed. I can understand it. Modern engineering uses metric for all official measurements (as opposed to "folk units" such as "oh, about 4 foot eight and a half"). I'm 55 years old - old enough to have grown up with imperial as folk units and to estimate in those units. But young enough that if I have to measure anything with a ruler or scales, I always use millimetres or grammes (and being British rather than American, I spell the latter "gramme", not "gram", but that's another story!). Nowadays I'd expect tools, plumbing pipes, drills etc to be sold in metric sizes - or else to have fairly clear wording that they were imperial, for use with existing legacy installations. This only applies to the UK; the USA clings to the imperial system like grim death, even sometimes in scientific and engineering fields. I've seen scientific papers which use units such as slugs and poundals. I'm probably weird that I know my height in feet and inches but not in centimetres, but if I had to measure my height I'd always do so in centimetres. Younger people probably have less "feel" for measurements in feet and inches; in a few more generations the imperial system may have been forgotten about, which is a shame because it has served us well, even if numerically it is a crap system because no two units for the same physical quantity are related by the only base that is meaningful to us - base 10, because we have 10 fingers (inc thumbs) and 10 toes - so calculation is tedious. Would you prefer to add up a column of prices in £p or in £sd, with all the latter's carry-after-you-reach-12 and carry-after-you-reach-20 complications. |
#39
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Apprentice and Hex keys
"FMurtz" wrote in message
... Rod Speed wrote: "FMurtz" wrote in message ... Rod Speed wrote: "alan_m" wrote in message ... On 10/01/2019 21:54, soup wrote: My favourite is 4 X 2 wood (nominally 4 inches by 2 inches) yet sold in metre lengths so you get things like :- Was it ever 2" x 4"? Always was and still is here. Always been 4 be 2 here. Bull****. In my circle I have never heard 2x4 from anyone but yanks I think I would tend to specify the larger of the two dimensions first - 4x2, rather than 2x4 - irrespective of whether the units were inches or centimetres. But that's only a convention, not a hard-and-fast rule. |
#40
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Apprentice and Hex keys
wrote in message
... If they've got to 16 or 18 without realising there are imperial measurements, I doubt they're about to get any knowledge anywhere. I can imagine that nowadays, the imperial system is dismissed with a few throwaway phrases like "Years ago, there used to be other units called feet, inches, ounces, pounds etc, but they were a pain to work with because they were related by conversion factors that weren't 10. Be aware that they exist, and be prepared to convert to/from them if necessary, but treat them as folk units." Any system which doesn't even have an integer relationship between volumetric and linear measurement is a bit dodgy: there are 277.419 cubic inches in a (UK) gallon. For some reason, there are exactly 231 cubic inches in a US gallon, which is odd because I thought the conversion between UK and US was 0.8 UK gall = 1 US gall since the US pint is 16 rather than 20 fluid ounces. Ah: I see now - the US and UK fluid ounces are slightly different sizes. It's like troy, avoirdupois and apothecaries ounces all over again - different trades define their units in slightly different ways. A bit of a mess! |
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