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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
How effective are these ? Are they much of an improvement over the old types ?
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
"Tim Streater" wrote in message .. . In article , fred wrote: How effective are these ? Are they much of an improvement over the old types ? What are "Thermodynamic Solar Panels" ?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_solar_panel |
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
fred wrote:
How effective are these ? Are they much of an improvement over the old types ? I would imagine you can get a bit more energy transfer but a much more complex system. Once the panel has got frost on it then that acts as an insulator and the efficiency will drop off until the frost has melted. I have solar thermal tubes and these do very well for 7 months of the year giving me most of the hot water I need. The remaining 5 months the gas boiler runs for about 15 mins twice a day for DHW. I suspect the improvement offered by thermodynamic panels would have a much higher capital cost and only save a bit of gas and you still need the power to run the heat pump. All my system needs is a central heating type pump and temperature difference controller consuming a watt or so. |
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
On 08/01/2019 22:11, fred wrote:
How effective are these ? Are they much of an improvement over the old types ? Not if the "old types" are PV. ;- -- Max Demian |
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
So how is this any different to the hot water heaters for roofs that many
already have. A friend of mine has one and it seems to save money, but of course there is the capital outlay, the need to keep them clean and any possible issues when they go wrong. Brian -- ----- -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "dkol" wrote in message ... "Tim Streater" wrote in message .. . In article , fred wrote: How effective are these ? Are they much of an improvement over the old types ? What are "Thermodynamic Solar Panels" ?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_solar_panel |
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
Brian Gaff wrote
So how is this any different to the hot water heaters for roofs that many already have. It has a heat pump instead of a much simpler system that just moves the hot water from the solar panel to the storage tank. A friend of mine has one and it seems to save money, Yes, a heat pump is better than just moving the hot water from the solar panel to the storage tank because it isnt just moving the captured solar energy, it is also moving some heat from the air around it too because it’s a heat pump. but of course there is the capital outlay, Yep, that’s the obvious downside. the need to keep them clean Less need for that than with a simpler system. and any possible issues when they go wrong. And significantly more expensive when the heat pump fails. "dkol" wrote in message ... "Tim Streater" wrote in message .. . In article , fred wrote: How effective are these ? Are they much of an improvement over the old types ? What are "Thermodynamic Solar Panels" ?? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamic_solar_panel |
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote: So how is this any different to the hot water heaters for roofs that many already have. A friend of mine has one and it seems to save money, but of course there is the capital outlay, the need to keep them clean and any possible issues when they go wrong. Brian On some newish houses in this village, hot water creating panel were fitted on the roofs. But they hadn'r been fitted properly. When it snowed all the panels were completely clear - the snow melted off them! -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle |
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
Bob Minchin wrote:
I would imagine you can get a bit more energy transfer but a much more complex system. I see comparisons where the payback for gas vs thermodynamic hot water is 30 years, so they make it look justifiable by assuming the boiler needs replacement after 15 years, they seem to assume the thermodynamic system won't need replacing inside 20 years. https://www.greenmatch.co.uk/solar-energy/solar-thermal/thermodynamic-panels#cost But then, their understanding of power vs energy is summed up by "uses 360 watts an hour" |
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
On 08/01/2019 22:11, fred wrote:
How effective are these ? Are they much of an improvement over the old types ? Because its a heat pump it can work in the dark, but you get better efficiency when the sun shines on them. If you just want hot water then normal passive solar panels are somewhat easier. |
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
On 09/01/2019 09:09, charles wrote:
In article , Brian Gaff wrote: So how is this any different to the hot water heaters for roofs that many already have. A friend of mine has one and it seems to save money, but of course there is the capital outlay, the need to keep them clean and any possible issues when they go wrong. Brian On some newish houses in this village, hot water creating panel were fitted on the roofs. But they hadn'r been fitted properly. When it snowed all the panels were completely clear - the snow melted off them! Maybe that is what you want, once they are clear of snow they stand a chance of picking up some solar heat. And presumably you don't want them freezing. I wonder if a smart heat pump system would manage this automatically? |
#11
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
On 08/01/2019 22:42, Bob Minchin wrote:
fred wrote: How effective are these ? Are they much of an improvement over the old types ? I would imagine you can get a bit more energy transfer but a much more complex system. It is able to take more low grade heat but at an enormous increase in complexity and plenty of moving parts to go wrong. I'd expect price performance to be risible (much like with ground source heat pumps when you include all the capital costs and ongoing maintainance work needed). Once the panel has got frost on it then that acts as an insulator and the efficiency will drop off until the frost has melted. I have solar thermal tubes and these do very well for 7 months of the year giving me most of the hot water I need. The remaining 5 months the gas boiler runs for about 15 mins twice a day for DHW. I suspect the improvement offered by thermodynamic panels would have a much higher capital cost and only save a bit of gas and you still need the power to run the heat pump. All my system needs is a central heating type pump and temperature difference controller consuming a watt or so. What is the payback period for your thermal solar tubes? Presumably one of the variants that uses a heat pipe in a glass tube silvered on the back half and plugged into a manifold. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 12:01:39 PM UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/01/2019 22:11, fred wrote: How effective are these ? Are they much of an improvement over the old types ? Because its a heat pump it can work in the dark, but you get better efficiency when the sun shines on them. If you just want hot water then normal passive solar panels are somewhat easier. Given all the above would photo electric panels (or whatever they are called) be more cost effective ? |
#13
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
"fred" wrote in message ... On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 12:01:39 PM UTC, dennis@home wrote: On 08/01/2019 22:11, fred wrote: How effective are these ? Are they much of an improvement over the old types ? Because its a heat pump it can work in the dark, but you get better efficiency when the sun shines on them. If you just want hot water then normal passive solar panels are somewhat easier. Given all the above would photo electric panels (or whatever they are called) be more cost effective ? No they would not because of the much lower efficiency of PV. In spades with the latitude of the UK. |
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
On 09/01/2019 12:36, fred wrote:
On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 12:01:39 PM UTC, dennis@home wrote: On 08/01/2019 22:11, fred wrote: How effective are these ? Are they much of an improvement over the old types ? Because its a heat pump it can work in the dark, but you get better efficiency when the sun shines on them. If you just want hot water then normal passive solar panels are somewhat easier. Given all the above would photo electric panels (or whatever they are called) be more cost effective ? They were better because you got a lot of payments for the electricity even if you used it all yourself. As for being green then passive solar water heating is probably greener than solar PV. |
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
On 09/01/2019 12:07, newshound wrote:
On 09/01/2019 09:09, charles wrote: In article , Â*Â*Â* Brian Gaff wrote: So how is this any different to the hot water heaters for roofs that many already have. A friend of mine has one and it seems to save money, but of course there is the capital outlay, the need to keep them clean andÂ* any possible issues when they go wrong. Brian On some newish houses in this village, hot water creating panel were fitted on the roofs.Â* But they hadn'r been fitted properly. When it snowed all the panels were completely clear - the snow melted off them! Maybe that is what you want, once they are clear of snow they stand a chance of picking up some solar heat. And presumably you don't want them freezing. I wonder if a smart heat pump system would manage this automatically? Doesn't need to. My solar hot water never get lying snow on them and they are installed correctly. The glycol stops them freezing. |
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
On 09/01/2019 13:41, dennis@home wrote:
On 09/01/2019 12:07, newshound wrote: Maybe that is what you want, once they are clear of snow they stand a chance of picking up some solar heat. And presumably you don't want them freezing. I wonder if a smart heat pump system would manage this automatically? Doesn't need to. My solar hot water never get lying snow on them and they are installed correctly. The glycol stops them freezing. So the angle and surface finish stops snow settling? Always? Do you perhaps have a "cotswold" slope? |
#17
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
Martin Brown wrote:
What is the payback period for your thermal solar tubes? Without RHI the payback calculations would make it a total non starter. My basic capital costs of the solar thermal are covered by the RHI. I did a one day training course for around £200 enabling me to do the installation myself and get it MCS certified - mandatory in order to get RHI. I did it as an interesting retirement project together with a PV dumping diverter - home made. The overall project has covered its costs over 6 years and now is in profit after all my household energy has been paid for. Presumably one of the variants that uses a heat pipe in a glass tube silvered on the back half and plugged into a manifold. Yes exactly that. An array of 30 vacuum tubes each with a water based heat pipe. |
#18
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
On 09/01/2019 17:08, newshound wrote:
On 09/01/2019 13:41, dennis@home wrote: On 09/01/2019 12:07, newshound wrote: Maybe that is what you want, once they are clear of snow they stand a chance of picking up some solar heat. And presumably you don't want them freezing. I wonder if a smart heat pump system would manage this automatically? Doesn't need to. My solar hot water never get lying snow on them and they are installed correctly. The glycol stops them freezing. So the angle and surface finish stops snow settling? Always? Do you perhaps have a "cotswold" slope? about 30 degrees |
#19
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Thermodynamic Solar Panels
On 09/01/2019 09:55, Andy Burns wrote:
But then, their understanding of power vs energy is summed up by "uses 360 watts an hour" The figures assume that the panels generate enough hot water for the average family 365 days a year without any need for a top up from any other source. Reference their "unit" figures why would an electric boiler be 12 pence per kWh and an electric immersion heater be 30 pence per kWh? Quote thermodynamic water heating systems may cost over 10 times less to operate than other common types, such as electric immersion heaters /Quote It's only 10x because they have used the wrong figures and so their quoted break even point of 5 years is some what bogus. As for boiler replacement, wouldn't it still be needed for central heating and if so the ability to also provide hot water comes for free (or just for the cost of the fuel). -- mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
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