Hi all,

I've recently put UFH in the newly united kitchen/dining rooms, as part of a totally new extensive project. This is water based with three pipe runs that provide good coverage of the space.

On top of the UFH is a QuickTherm Vapour Underlay, as recommended by the flooring supplier. The flooring is 15mm engineered oak finish, with the following spec:

Approx. veneer thickness of 3.2mm
Locking Joint - Floating install

The advice for underfloor heating from the flooring install guide is as follows:

"Maximum allowed temperature on top of the floor underneath the floorboards is 27 °C. Please note that normal loose carpets/rugs insulate i.e. increase the floor surface temperature by about 2 °C!"


I have the UFH running at 27 degrees C - After several hours, the floor is just not getting noticeably warm, neither is the room.

Does anyone have any experience of running a higher temperature under a wood floor. Most manufacturers seem to state 27 degrees max, but are they just covering their arses ? I mean, If I ran at 35 degrees for example, would it really be running a risk with the flooring.

I went to my neighbour's house, as they said that their UFH (installed a year ago) was working a treat with their wood floor. I looked at their UFH manifold and was amazed to see they're running it at 50+ degrees. I think they're oblivious to the guidelines.

Thanks for any advice (even if that includes adding rads and shutting off the UFH)

c.

On 02/01/2019 15:55, cf-leeds wrote:
Hi all,

I've recently put UFH in the newly united kitchen/dining rooms, as part of a totally new extensive project. This is water based with three pipe runs that provide good coverage of the space.

On top of the UFH is a QuickTherm Vapour Underlay, as recommended by the flooring supplier. The flooring is 15mm engineered oak finish, with the following spec:

Approx. veneer thickness of 3.2mm
Locking Joint - Floating install

The advice for underfloor heating from the flooring install guide is as follows:

"Maximum allowed temperature on top of the floor underneath the floorboards is 27 °C. Please note that normal loose carpets/rugs insulate i.e. increase the floor surface temperature by about 2 °C!"


I have the UFH running at 27 degrees C - After several hours, the floor is just not getting noticeably warm, neither is the room.

Does anyone have any experience of running a higher temperature under a wood floor. Most manufacturers seem to state 27 degrees max, but are they just covering their arses ? I mean, If I ran at 35 degrees for example, would it really be running a risk with the flooring.

I went to my neighbour's house, as they said that their UFH (installed a year ago) was working a treat with their wood floor. I looked at their UFH manifold and was amazed to see they're running it at 50+ degrees. I think they're oblivious to the guidelines.

Thanks for any advice (even if that includes adding rads and shutting off the UFH)

c.


My UFH under ceramic tiles runs at 50C +/- 5C and the surface
temperature is 26-30C.

You need to jack the water up a bit - I would have said 40C water would
be safe for wood as the surface will never get anywhere near the water
temperature.

--
Email does not work

On 02/01/2019 15:58, Tim Watts wrote:
On 02/01/2019 15:55, cf-leeds wrote:


c.


My UFH under ceramic tiles runs at 50C +/- 5C and the surface
temperature is 26-30C.

You need to jack the water up a bit - I would have said 40C water would
be safe for wood as the surface will never get anywhere near the water
temperature.

I agree, it is great under ceramic tiles, also OK on carpet over
concrete. But personally I don't think I'd want to use it this way.

On Wednesday, 2 January 2019 15:55:37 UTC, cf-leeds wrote:
Hi all,

I've recently put UFH in the newly united kitchen/dining rooms, as part of a totally new extensive project. This is water based with three pipe runs that provide good coverage of the space.

On top of the UFH is a QuickTherm Vapour Underlay, as recommended by the flooring supplier. The flooring is 15mm engineered oak finish, with the following spec:

Approx. veneer thickness of 3.2mm
Locking Joint - Floating install

The advice for underfloor heating from the flooring install guide is as follows:

"Maximum allowed temperature on top of the floor underneath the floorboards is 27 °C. Please note that normal loose carpets/rugs insulate i.e. increase the floor surface temperature by about 2 °C!"


I have the UFH running at 27 degrees C - After several hours, the floor is just not getting noticeably warm, neither is the room.

Does anyone have any experience of running a higher temperature under a wood floor. Most manufacturers seem to state 27 degrees max, but are they just covering their arses ? I mean, If I ran at 35 degrees for example, would it really be running a risk with the flooring.

I went to my neighbour's house, as they said that their UFH (installed a year ago) was working a treat with their wood floor. I looked at their UFH manifold and was amazed to see they're running it at 50+ degrees. I think they're oblivious to the guidelines.

Thanks for any advice (even if that includes adding rads and shutting off the UFH)

c.

How effective your UFH is depends on several factors.
If not working adequately, there's too much insulating material covering it, the UFH pipes are too small/short, there is insufficient insulation beneath the floor slab or the water is not hot enough.
ie all design errors.
Increasing water temperature will increase the heat transferred but reduce boiler efficiency.

It takes a few days for UFH to warm through, they have to be permanently"on".
They respond only slowly to weather changes, which is why many people have a "mixed "system (ie UFH + some radiators.)

cf-leeds wrote:

I have the UFH running at 27 degrees C - After several hours, the floor is just not getting noticeably warm, neither is the room.



How much insulation is under the UFH?

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 4:15:51 PM UTC, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 2 January 2019 15:55:37 UTC, cf-leeds wrote:
Hi all,

I've recently put UFH in the newly united kitchen/dining rooms, as part of a totally new extensive project. This is water based with three pipe runs that provide good coverage of the space.

On top of the UFH is a QuickTherm Vapour Underlay, as recommended by the flooring supplier. The flooring is 15mm engineered oak finish, with the following spec:

Approx. veneer thickness of 3.2mm
Locking Joint - Floating install

The advice for underfloor heating from the flooring install guide is as follows:

"Maximum allowed temperature on top of the floor underneath the floorboards is 27 °C. Please note that normal loose carpets/rugs insulate i.e.. increase the floor surface temperature by about 2 °C!"


I have the UFH running at 27 degrees C - After several hours, the floor is just not getting noticeably warm, neither is the room.

Does anyone have any experience of running a higher temperature under a wood floor. Most manufacturers seem to state 27 degrees max, but are they just covering their arses ? I mean, If I ran at 35 degrees for example, would it really be running a risk with the flooring.

I went to my neighbour's house, as they said that their UFH (installed a year ago) was working a treat with their wood floor. I looked at their UFH manifold and was amazed to see they're running it at 50+ degrees. I think they're oblivious to the guidelines.

Thanks for any advice (even if that includes adding rads and shutting off the UFH)

c.

How effective your UFH is depends on several factors.
If not working adequately, there's too much insulating material covering it, the UFH pipes are too small/short, there is insufficient insulation beneath the floor slab or the water is not hot enough.
ie all design errors.
Increasing water temperature will increase the heat transferred but reduce boiler efficiency.

It takes a few days for UFH to warm through, they have to be permanently"on".
They respond only slowly to weather changes, which is why many people have a "mixed "system (ie UFH + some radiators.)



Thanks -

I'm asking myself what degree of insulation the underlay is providing. Maybe the piping is at 27 degrees, but the underlay must be insulating the pipes to some extent. The the underlay is a lightweight closed cell polyethylene material.

Looking a the spec sheet, it has a tog value of .303.

c

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 4:18:46 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
cf-leeds wrote:

I have the UFH running at 27 degrees C - After several hours, the floor is just not getting noticeably warm, neither is the room.



How much insulation is under the UFH?

It's pro-warm 25mm EPS floating insulation boards on T&G wood floor.

On 02/01/2019 15:55, cf-leeds wrote:
I have the UFH running at 27 degrees C - After several hours, the
floor is just not getting noticeably warm, neither is the room.

Does anyone have any experience of running a higher temperature under
a wood floor. Most manufacturers seem to state 27 degrees max, but
are they just covering their arses ? I mean, If I ran at 35 degrees
for example, would it really be running a risk with the flooring.

First of all 27°C in the pipes will be nowhere near 27°C at the floor
surface. The ratio of pipe surface area to floor surface arae is small

There is quite a lot of drop through the screed.

I run mine with around 6mm engineered flooring flat out. 50°C+ It gets
up to around 35°C under rugs, under furniture.


I went to my neighbour's house, as they said that their UFH
(installed a year ago) was working a treat with their wood floor. I
looked at their UFH manifold and was amazed to see they're running it
at 50+ degrees. I think they're oblivious to the guidelines.

Thanks for any advice (even if that includes adding rads and shutting
off the UFH)


No. The issue with wood is that you may get shrinkage. That is not too
bad with engineered stuff.

The 27°C is just arse covering.

Increase temps till you can actually feel the floor getting warm after a
few hours or so.

Depending on hhow deep the screed is I'd say 50C in the pipes will be
about 30C at the room surface.

--
"If you dont read the news paper, you are un-informed. If you read the
news paper, you are mis-informed."

Mark Twain

On 02/01/2019 16:10, newshound wrote:
On 02/01/2019 15:58, Tim Watts wrote:
On 02/01/2019 15:55, cf-leeds wrote:


c.


My UFH under ceramic tiles runs at 50C +/- 5C and the surface
temperature is 26-30C.

You need to jack the water up a bit - I would have said 40C water
would be safe for wood as the surface will never get anywhere near the
water temperature.

I agree, it is great under ceramic tiles, also OK on carpet over
concrete. But personally I don't think I'd want to use it this way.

its fine with engineered wood too.

there is just more unwanted insulation than with tiles


--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

On 02/01/2019 16:27, cf-leeds wrote:
I'm asking myself what degree of insulation the underlay is
providing. Maybe the piping is at 27 degrees, but the underlay must
be insulating the pipes to some extent. The the underlay is a
lightweight closed cell polyethylene material.


some but you have totally missed the point. The surface area of te floor
is much gfreater than the surface area of the pipes inside it: so the
heat drops massively anyway on its way to te floor surface

I've run my floor bare to test it with no thermostat flat out
overnmight. Even than it barely got above 30°C with a 50W/sq meter
estimated input at 50°C

add a bit of underlay and some engineered wood, and it wont exceed 27°C
at the wood surface.


--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

On 02/01/2019 16:44, cf-leeds wrote:
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 4:18:46 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
cf-leeds wrote:

I have the UFH running at 27 degrees C - After several hours, the floor is just not getting noticeably warm, neither is the room.



How much insulation is under the UFH?

It's pro-warm 25mm EPS floating insulation boards on T&G wood floor.

Didnt think EPS was legal under kust a wood floor. Not screeded then? is
there no air gap?



--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 5:21:07 PM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/01/2019 16:44, cf-leeds wrote:
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 4:18:46 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
cf-leeds wrote:

I have the UFH running at 27 degrees C - After several hours, the floor is just not getting noticeably warm, neither is the room.



How much insulation is under the UFH?

It's pro-warm 25mm EPS floating insulation boards on T&G wood floor.

Didnt think EPS was legal under kust a wood floor. Not screeded then? is
there no air gap?



--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

The EPS has an outer aluminium layer, which is apparently for heat distribution, then there's the underlay, then the Engineered floor.

On 02/01/2019 18:26, cf-leeds wrote:
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 5:21:07 PM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/01/2019 16:44, cf-leeds wrote:
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 4:18:46 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
cf-leeds wrote:

I have the UFH running at 27 degrees C - After several hours, the floor is just not getting noticeably warm, neither is the room.



How much insulation is under the UFH?

It's pro-warm 25mm EPS floating insulation boards on T&G wood floor.

Didnt think EPS was legal under kust a wood floor. Not screeded then? is
there no air gap?



--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

The EPS has an outer aluminium layer, which is apparently for heat distribution, then there's the underlay, then the Engineered floor.

where are the pipes?


--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

ۥ Confucius

On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 7:10:35 PM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/01/2019 18:26, cf-leeds wrote:
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 5:21:07 PM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/01/2019 16:44, cf-leeds wrote:
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 4:18:46 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
cf-leeds wrote:

I have the UFH running at 27 degrees C - After several hours, the floor is just not getting noticeably warm, neither is the room.



How much insulation is under the UFH?

It's pro-warm 25mm EPS floating insulation boards on T&G wood floor.

Didnt think EPS was legal under kust a wood floor. Not screeded then? is
there no air gap?



--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

The EPS has an outer aluminium layer, which is apparently for heat distribution, then there's the underlay, then the Engineered floor.

where are the pipes?


--
"Nature does not give up the winter because people dislike the cold."

ۥ Confucius

The pipes are run in a channel that is already sunk into the boards. The thin aluminum layer is therefore also in the channel.

On 02/01/2019 21:18, cf-leeds wrote:


The pipes are run in a channel that is already sunk into the boards. The thin aluminum layer is therefore also in the channel.

OK. Id prefer to see a picture of this.

BUT if the Al is doing the spreading rather than the screed as in my
case its pretty much the same process. The Al will be at lower
temperature than the pipe water as it spreads the heat over a larger area.

So the answer is the same. Bang the water temp up till te wood is near
enough 27°C on the top.


--
Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain

On 02/01/2019 18:26, cf-leeds wrote:
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 5:21:07 PM UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 02/01/2019 16:44, cf-leeds wrote:
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 at 4:18:46 PM UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
cf-leeds wrote:

I have the UFH running at 27 degrees C - After several hours, the floor is just not getting noticeably warm, neither is the room.



How much insulation is under the UFH?

It's pro-warm 25mm EPS floating insulation boards on T&G wood floor.

Didnt think EPS was legal under kust a wood floor. Not screeded then? is
there no air gap?



--
When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over
the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that
authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it.

Frédéric Bastiat

The EPS has an outer aluminium layer, which is apparently for heat distribution, then there's the underlay, then the Engineered floor.


What is under the original T&G floor ?.

if this is a suspended and well ventilated ground floor, then in
your location, with only 25mm of EPS, you are going to lose quite a
lot of heat (and thus money) heating your underfloor space.

Andrew wrote:

if this is a suspended and well ventilated ground floor, then in
your location, with only 25mm of EPS, you are going to lose quite a
lot of heat (and thus money) heating your underfloor space.

Given the 15mm(?) pipe is embedded in the EPS, there's only about 10mm
of insulation below the heating pipe.

In message , Andy Burns
writes
Andrew wrote:

if this is a suspended and well ventilated ground floor, then in
your location, with only 25mm of EPS, you are going to lose quite a
lot of heat (and thus money) heating your underfloor space.

Given the 15mm(?) pipe is embedded in the EPS, there's only about 10mm
of insulation below the heating pipe.

This stuff does come in other thicknesses. I used 40mm but as you say
this still leaves less than 25mm of EPS below. Mine is on uninsulated
concrete:-( I don't think the OP has said.

Somebody with better maths than mine can explain *edge effect*.
Basically only the heat conducted into the floor near the walls is
totally lost.


--
Tim Lamb

On 03/01/2019 20:39, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:

if this is a suspended and well ventilated ground floor, then in
your location, with only 25mm of EPS, you are going to lose quite a
lot of heat (and thus money) heating your underfloor space.

Given the 15mm(?) pipe is embedded in the EPS, there's only about 10mm
of insulation below the heating pipe.

yep. This is ok on an upper floor, but its not how I would heat a ground
floor for sure

Modern practice is concrete beams with 6" EPS blocks between, and
another 6" EPS on top with the pipe pegged to that, and then screed or
concrete.

If I had a suspoende firun floor Id lift the floor, put celotex between
the beams, 100% seal it witl foil tape and expanding foam as appropiate
then a system such as described on top...



--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

On 03/01/2019 21:23, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Andy Burns
writes
Andrew wrote:

if this is a suspended and well ventilated ground floor, then in
your location, with only 25mm of EPS, you are going to lose quite a
lot of heat (and thus money) heating your underfloor space.

Given the 15mm(?) pipe is embedded in the EPS, there's only about 10mm
of insulation below the heating pipe.

This stuff does come in other thicknesses. I used 40mm but as you say
this still leaves less than 25mm of EPS below. Mine is on uninsulated
concrete:-( I don't think the OP has said.

Somebody with better maths than mine can explain *edge effect*.
Basically only the heat conducted into the floor near the walls is
totally lost.

Normally the walls are lined with inuslation before screed is dumped in





--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

On 04/01/19 06:48, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 03/01/2019 20:39, Andy Burns wrote:
Andrew wrote:

if this is a suspended and well ventilated ground floor, then in
your location, with only 25mm of EPS, you are going to lose quite a
lot of heat (and thus money) heating your underfloor space.

Given the 15mm(?) pipe is embedded in the EPS, there's only about 10mm
of insulation below the heating pipe.

yep. This is ok on an upper floor, but its not how I would heat a ground
floor for sure

Modern practice is concrete beams with 6" EPS blocks between, and
another 6" EPS on top with the pipe pegged to that, and then screed or
concrete.

If I had a suspoende firun floor Id lift the floor, put celotex between
the beams, 100% seal it witl foil tape and expanding foam as appropiate
then a system such as described on top...

Yep. More-or-less what was done for our conservatory floating floor four
years ago. Concrete beams with blocks between, covered with screed, and
then 50 mm Celotex. Heating was electric, though - film laid on top of
the Celotex, then 1000 gauge polythene on top of that. Actual floor was
T & G laminate (conservatory has potted plants, so polythene was needed
to ensure any water which accidently got through wouldn't get to the
electrics).

--

Jeff

On 02/01/2019 16:27, cf-leeds wrote:

I'm asking myself what degree of insulation the underlay is providing. Maybe the piping is at 27 degrees, but the underlay must be insulating the pipes to some extent. The the underlay is a lightweight closed cell polyethylene material.
You're reading into the max. temp thing way too much.
Crank it up to 55 degrees and don't worry. The 27 degrees thing relates
to the top surface you ultimately walk on not the surface you lay your
top wood on. i.e. if wood says it can only be heated to a max of 27
degrees you need to apply significantly greater level of heat to achieve
that temp. That's why wooden handles are used on things that get hot
like... pans, pokers etc.

Before I had loft insulation after refubing the whole of the upstairs
living area including ceilings, and while I was trying to decide what to
do with the lights we had a particularly chilly spell and the UFH
wouldn't bring the rooms up to anything like bearable as they were
pretty much open to the cold of the night so I pushed the heating up to
well over 60 degrees without any problems.

I have 50mm celotex between the joists, ufh pipes clipped to that, 18mm
chip board floor fixed to the joists, brown paper and 18mm engineered
floor on top of that.

The boiler is weather compensation regulated with a max. flow set to 50
degrees. all UFH manifolds are limited to 55 on their mixer stats as a
"just in case".

Temperatures under rugs and mats will creep up a little but I doubt
they'll get to 30 degrees. Typical temp. I see on the surface of our
floor is never close to 27 degrees.
Run it at proper UFH temperature (50 to 55 degrees) and wander around
with an infrared thermometer if you're concerned. If it hits 30 degrees
on open floor just wind the temp. back a few degrees but I'm sure you
won't see anything like that as heat is always being drawn away to warm
the room.

HTH
Pete