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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem

I have an illuminated bathroom mirror which has two unsilvered vertical
strips with 15w T8 fluorescent tubes behind them. The tubes are powered
via a single 2-way electronic ballast.

The lights have suddenly developed a fault. When turned on, they light
normally but then go out after a few (4 or 5) seconds. If I then turn
them off and wait a minute or so, I can turn them on again - and the
cycle repeats. There's no way they'll stay on more than a few seconds.

Anyone come across this sort of thing? AIUI, the ballast is supposed to
deliver a high start-up current and then cut it to a lower level for
running. So could it be cutting the current to zero rather than to the
proper value?

Is replacing the ballast likely to fix the problem, or could the tubes
be at fault?

The ballast is a Kengo KEB-215. I can't find one of these anywhere, or
even one of another make with the same spec. The nearest I can find is a
Tridonic 22185216 - which is 2 x 18w rather than 2 x 15w. It's also
slightly longer, so I'd have to bodge the mounting brackets. Assuming I
can make it physically fit, is the difference in electrical spec likely
to be a problem?
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Roger
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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem

On 23/11/2018 22:43, Roger Mills wrote:
I have an illuminated bathroom mirror which has two unsilvered vertical
strips with 15w T8 fluorescent tubes behind them. The tubes are powered
via a single 2-way electronic ballast.

The lights have suddenly developed a fault. When turned on, they light
normally but then go out after a few (4 or 5) seconds. If I then turn
them off and wait a minute or so, I can turn them on again - and the
cycle repeats. There's no way they'll stay on more than a few seconds.

Anyone come across this sort of thing? AIUI, the ballast is supposed to
deliver a high start-up current and then cut it to a lower level for
running. So could it be cutting the current to zero rather than to the
proper value?

Is replacing the ballast likely to fix the problem, or could the tubes
be at fault?

The ballast is a Kengo KEB-215. I can't find one of these anywhere, or
even one of another make with the same spec. The nearest I can find is a
Tridonic 22185216 - which is 2 x 18w rather thanĀ* 2 x 15w. It's also
slightly longer, so I'd have to bodge the mounting brackets. Assuming I
can make it physically fit, is the difference in electrical spec likely
to be a problem?



Go LED?

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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem

No it might not look very nice in that sort of application you will see the
brightness hot spots.
I would say its the ballast myself. I had a similar issue on a rostrum
mounted cctv some years ago and that was the ballast. as for wattage. Hard
to say if it would make any difference. It did not on my version, but its
been a lot of years since then and things do change.
These work by not using the filaments and I often found that if the room
was cold they would not start and stay started until they warmed up.
Brian

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"ARW" wrote in message
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On 23/11/2018 22:43, Roger Mills wrote:
I have an illuminated bathroom mirror which has two unsilvered vertical
strips with 15w T8 fluorescent tubes behind them. The tubes are powered
via a single 2-way electronic ballast.

The lights have suddenly developed a fault. When turned on, they light
normally but then go out after a few (4 or 5) seconds. If I then turn
them off and wait a minute or so, I can turn them on again - and the
cycle repeats. There's no way they'll stay on more than a few seconds.

Anyone come across this sort of thing? AIUI, the ballast is supposed to
deliver a high start-up current and then cut it to a lower level for
running. So could it be cutting the current to zero rather than to the
proper value?

Is replacing the ballast likely to fix the problem, or could the tubes be
at fault?

The ballast is a Kengo KEB-215. I can't find one of these anywhere, or
even one of another make with the same spec. The nearest I can find is a
Tridonic 22185216 - which is 2 x 18w rather than 2 x 15w. It's also
slightly longer, so I'd have to bodge the mounting brackets. Assuming I
can make it physically fit, is the difference in electrical spec likely
to be a problem?



Go LED?

--
Adam



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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem

On Friday, 23 November 2018 22:43:17 UTC, Roger Mills wrote:

I have an illuminated bathroom mirror which has two unsilvered vertical
strips with 15w T8 fluorescent tubes behind them. The tubes are powered
via a single 2-way electronic ballast.

The lights have suddenly developed a fault. When turned on, they light
normally but then go out after a few (4 or 5) seconds. If I then turn
them off and wait a minute or so, I can turn them on again - and the
cycle repeats. There's no way they'll stay on more than a few seconds.

Anyone come across this sort of thing? AIUI, the ballast is supposed to
deliver a high start-up current and then cut it to a lower level for
running. So could it be cutting the current to zero rather than to the
proper value?

Is replacing the ballast likely to fix the problem, or could the tubes
be at fault?

The ballast is a Kengo KEB-215. I can't find one of these anywhere, or
even one of another make with the same spec. The nearest I can find is a
Tridonic 22185216 - which is 2 x 18w rather than 2 x 15w. It's also
slightly longer, so I'd have to bodge the mounting brackets. Assuming I
can make it physically fit, is the difference in electrical spec likely
to be a problem?


I'd assume it's the ballast. Good time to go to LEDs. Under-run them & they last very well.

Or you could look for bad caps or a fractured connection in the ballast.


NT
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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem

In article ,
wrote:
I'd assume it's the ballast. Good time to go to LEDs. Under-run them & they last very well.



You'd need a lot of LEDs to give as uniform a looking light as a tube,
if that matters.

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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem

The few LED tube replacements I've seen have LEDs close enough together
that - with diffusion and internal reflection - I'd think that's
unlikely to be a problem. The more so if the unsilvered glass is
ground. A home-brewed solution with LED tape might well need something
more to achieve the same effect - perhaps using parallel but staggered
strips. But when the result will be hidden behind the mirror I'd go the
Blue Peter route - which is not to say I doubt the OP would do better.

On 24/11/2018 09:42, Brian Gaff wrote:
No it might not look very nice in that sort of application you will see the
brightness hot spots.
I would say its the ballast myself. I had a similar issue on a rostrum
mounted cctv some years ago and that was the ballast. as for wattage. Hard
to say if it would make any difference. It did not on my version, but its
been a lot of years since then and things do change.
These work by not using the filaments and I often found that if the room
was cold they would not start and stay started until they warmed up.
Brian



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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem

On Saturday, 24 November 2018 11:15:59 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:


I'd assume it's the ballast. Good time to go to LEDs. Under-run them & they last very well.



You'd need a lot of LEDs to give as uniform a looking light as a tube,
if that matters.


a neat pattern is usually fine.
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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem

In article ,
Roger Mills writes:
I have an illuminated bathroom mirror which has two unsilvered vertical
strips with 15w T8 fluorescent tubes behind them. The tubes are powered
via a single 2-way electronic ballast.

The lights have suddenly developed a fault. When turned on, they light
normally but then go out after a few (4 or 5) seconds. If I then turn
them off and wait a minute or so, I can turn them on again - and the
cycle repeats. There's no way they'll stay on more than a few seconds.

Anyone come across this sort of thing? AIUI, the ballast is supposed to
deliver a high start-up current and then cut it to a lower level for
running. So could it be cutting the current to zero rather than to the
proper value?

Is replacing the ballast likely to fix the problem, or could the tubes
be at fault?

The ballast is a Kengo KEB-215. I can't find one of these anywhere, or
even one of another make with the same spec. The nearest I can find is a
Tridonic 22185216 - which is 2 x 18w rather than 2 x 15w. It's also
slightly longer, so I'd have to bodge the mounting brackets. Assuming I
can make it physically fit, is the difference in electrical spec likely
to be a problem?


If it's a good electronic ballast, it will be detecting unbalanced
current flow in the tubes, and shutting down in that case. This would
be because one of the tubes has run out filament emission coating,
and starts operating as a rectifier. If allowed to continue operating,
that end of the tube will overheat, and would likely damage the lampholder
and anything else near the tube end.

If this is the cause, you need new tubes. Often you will see at least
one tube end is blackened too (that's the sputtered off emission coating).

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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE

On 23/11/2018 22:43, Roger Mills wrote:
I have an illuminated bathroom mirror which has two unsilvered vertical
strips with 15w T8 fluorescent tubes behind them. The tubes are powered
via a single 2-way electronic ballast.

The lights have suddenly developed a fault. When turned on, they light
normally but then go out after a few (4 or 5) seconds. If I then turn
them off and wait a minute or so, I can turn them on again - and the
cycle repeats. There's no way they'll stay on more than a few seconds.

Anyone come across this sort of thing? AIUI, the ballast is supposed to
deliver a high start-up current and then cut it to a lower level for
running. So could it be cutting the current to zero rather than to the
proper value?

Is replacing the ballast likely to fix the problem, or could the tubes
be at fault?

The ballast is a Kengo KEB-215. I can't find one of these anywhere, or
even one of another make with the same spec. The nearest I can find is a
Tridonic 22185216 - which is 2 x 18w rather than 2 x 15w. It's also
slightly longer, so I'd have to bodge the mounting brackets. Assuming I
can make it physically fit, is the difference in electrical spec likely
to be a problem?


Many thanks for the all the comments.

I think it was probably a bad connection on one of the tubes. I took
both tubes out and turned them the other way up - and it started working ok.

For future reference, can you get LED tubes which fit the same sockets?
If so, do you junk the ballast and just connect them directly to the mains?

With regards to checking the ballast for failed caps, etc. - the whole
thing seems to be pretty much encapsulated, with a few wires emerging
from both ends. I doubt whether it could be opened up non-destructively.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE

On Saturday, 24 November 2018 23:17:34 UTC, Roger Mills wrote:
On 23/11/2018 22:43, Roger Mills wrote:


I have an illuminated bathroom mirror which has two unsilvered vertical
strips with 15w T8 fluorescent tubes behind them. The tubes are powered
via a single 2-way electronic ballast.

The lights have suddenly developed a fault. When turned on, they light
normally but then go out after a few (4 or 5) seconds. If I then turn
them off and wait a minute or so, I can turn them on again - and the
cycle repeats. There's no way they'll stay on more than a few seconds.

Anyone come across this sort of thing? AIUI, the ballast is supposed to
deliver a high start-up current and then cut it to a lower level for
running. So could it be cutting the current to zero rather than to the
proper value?

Is replacing the ballast likely to fix the problem, or could the tubes
be at fault?

The ballast is a Kengo KEB-215. I can't find one of these anywhere, or
even one of another make with the same spec. The nearest I can find is a
Tridonic 22185216 - which is 2 x 18w rather than 2 x 15w. It's also
slightly longer, so I'd have to bodge the mounting brackets. Assuming I
can make it physically fit, is the difference in electrical spec likely
to be a problem?


Many thanks for the all the comments.

I think it was probably a bad connection on one of the tubes. I took
both tubes out and turned them the other way up - and it started working ok.

For future reference, can you get LED tubes which fit the same sockets?
If so, do you junk the ballast and just connect them directly to the mains?


both methods are used

NT

With regards to checking the ballast for failed caps, etc. - the whole
thing seems to be pretty much encapsulated, with a few wires emerging
from both ends. I doubt whether it could be opened up non-destructively.



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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE



"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 23/11/2018 22:43, Roger Mills wrote:
I have an illuminated bathroom mirror which has two unsilvered vertical
strips with 15w T8 fluorescent tubes behind them. The tubes are powered
via a single 2-way electronic ballast.

The lights have suddenly developed a fault. When turned on, they light
normally but then go out after a few (4 or 5) seconds. If I then turn
them off and wait a minute or so, I can turn them on again - and the
cycle repeats. There's no way they'll stay on more than a few seconds.

Anyone come across this sort of thing? AIUI, the ballast is supposed to
deliver a high start-up current and then cut it to a lower level for
running. So could it be cutting the current to zero rather than to the
proper value?

Is replacing the ballast likely to fix the problem, or could the tubes
be at fault?

The ballast is a Kengo KEB-215. I can't find one of these anywhere, or
even one of another make with the same spec. The nearest I can find is a
Tridonic 22185216 - which is 2 x 18w rather than 2 x 15w. It's also
slightly longer, so I'd have to bodge the mounting brackets. Assuming I
can make it physically fit, is the difference in electrical spec likely
to be a problem?


Many thanks for the all the comments.

I think it was probably a bad connection on one of the tubes. I took both
tubes out and turned them the other way up - and it started working ok.


For future reference, can you get LED tubes which fit the same sockets?


Yes.

If so, do you junk the ballast and just connect them directly to the
mains?


You can do, or just replace the starter with
a dummy that is connected all the time.

With regards to checking the ballast for failed caps, etc. - the whole
thing seems to be pretty much encapsulated, with a few wires emerging from
both ends. I doubt whether it could be opened up non-destructively.


So go the dummy starter route.

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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE

On 25/11/2018 01:54, Rod Speed wrote:


"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 23/11/2018 22:43, Roger Mills wrote:
I have an illuminated bathroom mirror which has two unsilvered vertical
strips with 15w T8 fluorescent tubes behind them. The tubes are powered
via a single 2-way electronic ballast.

The lights have suddenly developed a fault. When turned on, they light
normally but then go out after a few (4 or 5) seconds. If I then turn
them off and wait a minute or so, I can turn them on again - and the
cycle repeats. There's no way they'll stay on more than a few seconds.

Anyone come across this sort of thing? AIUI, the ballast is supposed to
deliver a high start-up current and then cut it to a lower level for
running. So could it be cutting the current to zero rather than to the
proper value?

Is replacing the ballast likely to fix the problem, or could the tubes
be at fault?

The ballast is a Kengo KEB-215. I can't find one of these anywhere, or
even one of another make with the same spec. The nearest I can find is a
Tridonic 22185216 - which is 2 x 18w rather than 2 x 15w. It's also
slightly longer, so I'd have to bodge the mounting brackets. Assuming I
can make it physically fit, is the difference in electrical spec likely
to be a problem?


Many thanks for the all the comments.

I think it was probably a bad connection on one of the tubes. I took
both tubes out and turned them the other way up - and it started
working ok.


For future reference, can you get LED tubes which fit the same sockets?


Yes.

If so, do you junk the ballast and just connect them directly to the
mains?


You can do, or just replace the starter with
a dummy that is connected all the time.

With regards to checking the ballast for failed caps, etc. - the whole
thing seems to be pretty much encapsulated, with a few wires emerging
from both ends. I doubt whether it could be opened up non-destructively.


So go the dummy starter route.



He has an electronic ballast so that will not work.

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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE

On 24/11/2018 23:17, Roger Mills wrote:
On 23/11/2018 22:43, Roger Mills wrote:
I have an illuminated bathroom mirror which has two unsilvered vertical
strips with 15w T8 fluorescent tubes behind them. The tubes are powered
via a single 2-way electronic ballast.

The lights have suddenly developed a fault. When turned on, they light
normally but then go out after a few (4 or 5) seconds. If I then turn
them off and wait a minute or so, I can turn them on again - and the
cycle repeats. There's no way they'll stay on more than a few seconds.

Anyone come across this sort of thing? AIUI, the ballast is supposed to
deliver a high start-up current and then cut it to a lower level for
running. So could it be cutting the current to zero rather than to the
proper value?

Is replacing the ballast likely to fix the problem, or could the tubes
be at fault?

The ballast is a Kengo KEB-215. I can't find one of these anywhere, or
even one of another make with the same spec. The nearest I can find is a
Tridonic 22185216 - which is 2 x 18w rather than 2 x 15w. It's also
slightly longer, so I'd have to bodge the mounting brackets. Assuming I
can make it physically fit, is the difference in electrical spec likely
to be a problem?


Many thanks for the all the comments.

I think it was probably a bad connection on one of the tubes. I took
both tubes out and turned them the other way up - and it started working
ok.

For future reference, can you get LED tubes which fit the same sockets?
If so, do you junk the ballast and just connect them directly to the mains?



You can get them. I have fitted quite a few.

The ballast is bypassed but there are a number of ways to wire them up
depending on the LED tube that you buy!

--
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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE

No you cannot get into those ballasts. Its a nasty trick so you have to
replace them.
Now I'm intrigued. Are the tubes merely in series with only one set of
heaters active? I saw a system like this, it was a bodge and I never did
understand how on earth it ever worked as the voltage had to break down two
tubes not just one. If you try this sort of thing with neon's you either get
nothing or a kind of brightness oscillation effect which is not really what
was wonted.
I also remember some old Woolworhs strips with two tubes and they end
plugged into a bayonet. There was no choke and just a small little
encapsulated blob. It worked but not when the weather was cold!
Brian

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Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
On 23/11/2018 22:43, Roger Mills wrote:
I have an illuminated bathroom mirror which has two unsilvered vertical
strips with 15w T8 fluorescent tubes behind them. The tubes are powered
via a single 2-way electronic ballast.

The lights have suddenly developed a fault. When turned on, they light
normally but then go out after a few (4 or 5) seconds. If I then turn
them off and wait a minute or so, I can turn them on again - and the
cycle repeats. There's no way they'll stay on more than a few seconds.

Anyone come across this sort of thing? AIUI, the ballast is supposed to
deliver a high start-up current and then cut it to a lower level for
running. So could it be cutting the current to zero rather than to the
proper value?

Is replacing the ballast likely to fix the problem, or could the tubes
be at fault?

The ballast is a Kengo KEB-215. I can't find one of these anywhere, or
even one of another make with the same spec. The nearest I can find is a
Tridonic 22185216 - which is 2 x 18w rather than 2 x 15w. It's also
slightly longer, so I'd have to bodge the mounting brackets. Assuming I
can make it physically fit, is the difference in electrical spec likely
to be a problem?


Many thanks for the all the comments.

I think it was probably a bad connection on one of the tubes. I took both
tubes out and turned them the other way up - and it started working ok.

For future reference, can you get LED tubes which fit the same sockets? If
so, do you junk the ballast and just connect them directly to the mains?

With regards to checking the ballast for failed caps, etc. - the whole
thing seems to be pretty much encapsulated, with a few wires emerging from
both ends. I doubt whether it could be opened up non-destructively.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Default Lonely Psychotic Senile Ozzie Troll Alert! LOL

On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 12:54:28 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

Yes.


WHAT???? Are you sick today, Rot? LOL

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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE

On 25/11/2018 07:57, ARW wrote:
On 24/11/2018 23:17, Roger Mills wrote:



For future reference, can you get LED tubes which fit the same
sockets? If so, do you junk the ballast and just connect them directly
to the mains?



You can get them. I have fitted quite a few.

The ballast is bypassed but there are a number of ways to wire them up
depending on the LED tube that you buy!


Can you point me at a suitable replacement for 18" T8's? They seem less
plentiful than 24" tubes.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE

Roger Mills wrote:

Can you point me at a suitable replacement for 18" T8's? They seem less
plentiful than 24" tubes.


Google showed me several

https://www.lampshoponline.com/f15w-t8-triphosphor-fluorescent-tube-18inch-15w.html

https://www.edwardes.co.uk/en/categories/15-watt-18-450mm-fluorescent-lamps

https://www.thelightbulb.co.uk/light-bulbs/fluorescent-tubes/t8-26mm/15watt-18-inch

https://www.lamps-on-line.com/fluorescent-tube-f15w-830-18-t8-15w-830.html

Plus numerous Amazon/eBay sellers ...

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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE

On 25/11/2018 09:47, Brian Gaff wrote:
No you cannot get into those ballasts. Its a nasty trick so you have to
replace them.
Now I'm intrigued. Are the tubes merely in series with only one set of
heaters active?
Brian


I can't quite work it out. There are 6 wires coming out of the ballast.
Two go to the bottom socket of the left tube, and two to the bottom
right. The other two go one each to the top of the tubes. Finally
there's a cross-connections between the other two pins on the top
sockets. Whether this constitutes being wired in series, I'm not sure.

I've got a similar device at my holiday flat, and ISTR that when one
tube failed, neither would light.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE

On 25/11/2018 13:58, Andy Burns wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:

Can you point me at a suitable replacement for 18" T8's? They seem
less plentiful than 24" tubes.


Google showed me several

https://www.lampshoponline.com/f15w-t8-triphosphor-fluorescent-tube-18inch-15w.html


https://www.edwardes.co.uk/en/categories/15-watt-18-450mm-fluorescent-lamps


https://www.thelightbulb.co.uk/light-bulbs/fluorescent-tubes/t8-26mm/15watt-18-inch


https://www.lamps-on-line.com/fluorescent-tube-f15w-830-18-t8-15w-830.html


Plus numerous Amazon/eBay sellers ...


Thanks, but the question to Adam was in response to his suggestion to
use LED-based tubes, and that was what I was looking for. I'm aware
that I can get bog standard fluorescent tubes ok.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE

In article ,
Roger Mills wrote:
On 25/11/2018 09:47, Brian Gaff wrote:
No you cannot get into those ballasts. Its a nasty trick so you have to
replace them.
Now I'm intrigued. Are the tubes merely in series with only one set of
heaters active?
Brian


I can't quite work it out. There are 6 wires coming out of the ballast.
Two go to the bottom socket of the left tube, and two to the bottom
right. The other two go one each to the top of the tubes. Finally
there's a cross-connections between the other two pins on the top
sockets. Whether this constitutes being wired in series, I'm not sure.


I've got a similar device at my holiday flat, and ISTR that when one
tube failed, neither would light.


They can be odd, these small tubes. Have a battery one where the pins are
wired in parallel. So no heater.

--
*If a thing is worth doing, wouldn't it have been done already?

Dave Plowman London SW
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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE

On 25/11/2018 13:51, Roger Mills wrote:
On 25/11/2018 07:57, ARW wrote:
On 24/11/2018 23:17, Roger Mills wrote:



For future reference, can you get LED tubes which fit the same
sockets? If so, do you junk the ballast and just connect them directly
to the mains?



You can get them. I have fitted quite a few.

The ballast is bypassed but there are a number of ways to wire them up
depending on the LED tube that you buy!


Can you point me at a suitable replacement for 18" T8's? They seem less
plentiful than 24" tubes.


Erm. No I cannot.

I shall look into this bit lacking info.


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Adam
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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE

replying to ARW, BrianR wrote:
I see it was some moths ago, but I have the same fitting. Did you ever find
an 18" LED tube? I couldn't. I also can't find a ballast of the same size
(length 240mm fixings).

Bian R

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Default Bathroom illuminated mirror problem - UPDATE

On 22/03/2019 18:14, BrianR wrote:
replying to ARW, BrianR wrote:
I see it was some moths ago, but I have the same fitting. Did you ever find
an 18" LED tube? I couldn't. I also can't find a ballast of the same size
(length 240mm fixings).

Bian R


No, I couldn't find any 18" LED tubes. I found some ordinary fluorescent
tubes - but they didn't fix the problem.


I then bought a ballast from CP Lighting Ltd of Surbiton. It wasn't
identical to the original, but it worked fine. I can't see the exact one
on their website, but are several others which would probably do.

The one I bought was specified for 2 x 18w - 24w T8 tubes rather than 2
x 15w, but that didn't seem to matter.

It was slightly shorter and quite a lot wider than the original. Width
wasn't a problem - there's plenty of room. I needed to bolt a short
fish-plate to one end to make it the right length to fit the fixing points.

The connections on the new one were push-fit, and only worked with rigid
conductors, whereas the captive wires connected to the old one were
stranded. I got round that by using short rigid wires into the ballast,
joined to the original wires with choccy blocks. [I think I used crimps
on the mains input wires.]

I could probably have saved a few bob by just replacing the ballast -
but anyway the thing now has a new lease of life!
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Cheers,
Roger
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