"Max Demian" wrote in message
...
On 19/08/2018 19:53, Rod Speed wrote:


"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
news
On 19/08/18 08:54, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 19 August 2018 07:36:34 UTC+1, Broadback wrote:
They are being advertised on TV as saving electricity. Now we all know
that adverts are all accurate and never lie. But how exactly do they
save electric? Or do they mean that customers can use the information
given to save it?

Their ultimate real purpose is energy demand management, in the new
world of renewable energy.Tariffs will be instantly adjustable
depending on electricity available.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management

Not quite. instantly adjustable up, long-delayed down. Just like power
supplies and petrol/diesel at present.

That is an interesting Wiki article, though. I thought the examples
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management#Examples) were
particularly informative, and a bit worrying: "The utility companies in
the state of Queensland, Australia have devices fitted onto certain
household appliances such as air conditioners or into household meters
to control water heater, pool pumps etc. These devices would allow
energy companies to remotely cycle the use of these items during peak
hours."

What is the point of having an air conditioner (or heater in cold
climates) if the electric company decides they will switch it off?

The point is that its better to turn those off for a short time at
the peak of demand that to turn off everything in entire suburbs
when the supply can't keep up with demand at peak times.

It would be bad enough not owning an air conditioner in a heatwave, but
actually having one and just sitting there watching it do nothing
because someone else is controlling it would be especially galling.

Not when its only off for a short time when supply can't keep up with
peak demand. Much better than no power at all.

The alternative is the power company switching on an extra generator

Not possible when they are all on already.

which will eat into their profits. That's why they want to switch off your
stuff.

They also want to do that when the only alternative its blackouts.

On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 11:47:33 +0100, Jeff Layman wrote:

What is the point of having an air conditioner (or heater in cold
climates) if the electric company decides they will switch it off? It
would be bad enough not owning an air conditioner in a heatwave, but
actually having one and just sitting there watching it do nothing
because someone else is controlling it would be especially galling.

How long do you think an appliance thus controlled would stay
connected to the controlled supply. Or if the "remote switch" is in
the appliance that a bit of wire from its input to ouput magically
appears?

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article , Jethro_uk
writes
On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 15:19:06 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 07:36:31 +0100, Broadback
wrote:

They are being advertised on TV as saving electricity. Now we all know
that adverts are all accurate and never lie. But how exactly do they
save electric? Or do they mean that customers can use the information
given to save it?

That's what I understand. TPTB expect you to look at the meter every
few minutes and run around switching off lights, phone chargers etc to
save a few watts. My impression is that most people pretty soon get
bored by them and stop looking, presumably reverting to their former
wasteful or otherwise behaviour.

Must be me, but how would any meter persuade me to switch off lights etc
I didn't need? Unless of course you make a habit of leaving things on
when not needed. And can't for the life of me see how a fancy meter
would change that.

I think the whole "smart meter" crap was busted when someone asked if
they save electricity, why not use them for water, and save water. The
only reason that makes sense is if they don't save electricity.....

Would probably be more effective with water especially in times of
shortage.
--
bert

In article ,
harry writes
On Sunday, 19 August 2018 11:47:35 UTC+1, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 19/08/18 08:54, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 19 August 2018 07:36:34 UTC+1, Broadback wrote:
They are being advertised on TV as saving electricity. Now we all know
that adverts are all accurate and never lie. But how exactly do they
save electric? Or do they mean that customers can use the information
given to save it?

Their ultimate real purpose is energy demand management, in the new
world of renewable energy.Tariffs will be instantly adjustable
depending on electricity available.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management

Not quite. instantly adjustable up, long-delayed down. Just like power
supplies and petrol/diesel at present.

That is an interesting Wiki article, though. I thought the examples
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management#Examples) were
particularly informative, and a bit worrying: "The utility companies in
the state of Queensland, Australia have devices fitted onto certain
household appliances such as air conditioners or into household meters
to control water heater, pool pumps etc. These devices would allow
energy companies to remotely cycle the use of these items during peak
hours."

What is the point of having an air conditioner (or heater in cold
climates) if the electric company decides they will switch it off? It
would be bad enough not owning an air conditioner in a heatwave, but
actually having one and just sitting there watching it do nothing
because someone else is controlling it would be especially galling.

Jeff

They won't switch it off. They will (treble?) the price of
electricity it there is a shortfall in supply.

And you call this progress?
The YOU will turn it off. Or your computer will.

--
bert

In article , Max
Demian writes
On 19/08/2018 19:53, Rod Speed wrote:
"Jeff Layman" wrote in message
news
On 19/08/18 08:54, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 19 August 2018 07:36:34 UTC+1, Broadback* wrote:
They are being advertised on TV as saving electricity. Now we all know
that adverts are all accurate and never lie. But how exactly do they
save electric? Or do they mean that customers can use the information
given to save it?

Their ultimate real purpose is energy demand management, in the new
world of renewable energy.Tariffs will be instantly adjustable
depending on electricity available.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management

Not quite. instantly adjustable up, long-delayed down. Just like
power supplies and petrol/diesel at present.

That is an interesting Wiki article, though. I thought the examples
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management#Examples)
were particularly informative, and a bit worrying: "The utility
companies in the state of Queensland, Australia have devices fitted
onto certain household appliances such as air conditioners or into
household meters to control water heater, pool pumps etc. These
devices would allow energy companies to remotely cycle the use of
these items during peak hours."

What is the point of having an air conditioner (or heater in cold
climates) if the electric company decides they will switch it off?
The point is that its better to turn those off for a short time at
the peak of demand that to turn off everything in entire suburbs
when the supply can't keep up with demand at peak times.

It would be bad enough not owning an air conditioner in a heatwave,
but actually having one and just sitting there watching it do nothing
because someone else is controlling it would be especially galling.
Not when its only off for a short time when supply can't keep up
with
peak demand. Much better than no power at all.

The alternative is the power company switching on an extra generator
which will eat into their profits. That's why they want to switch off
your stuff.

Well they don't make much profit out of a generator standing idle do
they. The most efficient usage is to have them running all the time.
Easy with nukes.
--
bert

In article , ARW
writes
On 19/08/2018 12:19, alan_m wrote:
On 19/08/2018 10:58, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

Clip-on power meters have been available for many years which do
this (albeit less accurately), and their impact was identical, so
it comes as no surprise.
+1
I've had a clip on meter for many years. The novelty wore off after
around a week. The only time I now look at it is before leaving the
house for an extended time (holiday etc.) just to see that I haven't
accidentally left something on such as the immersion heater.

Could you not just have a look at the immersion heater switch:-)?



Especially easy if it has a red light on it.
--
bert

In article , Bob Eager
writes
On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 14:03:26 +0100, bert wrote:

384kwh according to the latest ads on Classic FM. No given that one of
the supposed benefits of SMs is that you can see your usage in "pounds
and pence" why are they giving the potential savings in old money I
wonder?

What's the new money, then?

Sigh They do say humour is wasted on t'internet.
--
bert

On 19/08/2018 14:32, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Except it doesn't tell you which appliances are using the electricity,
or allow you to see what the average consumption of your
fridge/freezer is, or the total used for an operation such as a wash
cycle or cooking exercise.

You can get plug in logging meters for that, to monitor instantaneous,
hourly, daily and weekly.

I done that years back and never bother now. What I do is make sure
things like washing machines are full loads and fridge/freezer are never
going to be off anyhow so doesnt really matter what they use as I cant
reallt influence it.

My bills for a 4 bed detached were around £1500 per year 6 years ago and
now around £1000 and thats with several price increases although I have
switched suppliers twice.

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 05:09:11 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again:


Particularly if you have a resident whose body temperature control is not
very effective and would suffer extreme distress without said air
conditioning.

There are no such people

Are you sure, senile Rot? Senilely sure again? BG

--
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp addressing Rot Speed:
"You really are a clueless pillock."
MID:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 04:53:33 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again:

It would be bad enough not owning an air conditioner in a heatwave, but
actually having one and just sitting there watching it do nothing because
someone else is controlling it would be especially galling.

Not when its only off for a short time

HOW short a time, you endlessly driveling idiot?

--
FredXX to Rot Speed:
"You are still an idiot and an embarrassment to your country. No wonder
we shippe the likes of you out of the British Isles. Perhaps stupidity
and criminality is inherited after all?"
Message-ID:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 04:58:59 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again:

You forget the annual safety checks that the meter readers perform!

Ours don¢t do anything like that.

Why would anyone in a UK group care what your meters in Oz do or don't do,
you self-opinionated Ozzie asshole? Eh?


--
FredXX to Rot Speed:
"You are still an idiot and an embarrassment to your country. No wonder
we shippe the likes of you out of the British Isles. Perhaps stupidity
and criminality is inherited after all?"
Message-ID:

"ss" wrote in message
...
On 19/08/2018 14:32, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Except it doesn't tell you which appliances are using the electricity,
or allow you to see what the average consumption of your fridge/freezer
is, or the total used for an operation such as a wash cycle or cooking
exercise.

You can get plug in logging meters for that, to monitor instantaneous,
hourly, daily and weekly.

I done that years back and never bother now. What I do is make sure things
like washing machines are full loads and fridge/freezer are never going to
be off anyhow so doesnt really matter what they use as I cant reallt
influence it.

You can however measure that it isnt doing very well and
see it replacing it will pay for itself in a reasonable time.

My bills for a 4 bed detached were around £1500 per year 6 years ago and
now around £1000 and thats with several price increases although I have
switched suppliers twice.

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 04:47:31 +1000, Rod Speed wrote:

Sure, but its more convenient with a smart meter and will be possible
to have time of day rates that allow consumers to use the higher power
devices like clothes driers etc when the cost of the energy is lower and
so allow the supplier to supply that energy when its cheaper for them.
A much more sophisticated system than the current off peak system.

https://imgur.com/a/4j9dLiR

With a smartmeter, that is much easier for the consumer to do.

What a ridiculous SMARTASS! LOL

--
Cursitor Doom about Rot Speed:
"The man is a conspicuous and unashamed ignoramus."
MID:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 06:03:13 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again:

The alternative is the power company switching on an extra generator

Not possible when they are all on already.

But very possible if not all are on already, idiot!

--
Cursitor Doom about Rot Speed:
"The man is a conspicuous and unashamed ignoramus."
MID:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 07:05:54 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again:

I done that years back and never bother now. What I do is make sure things
like washing machines are full loads and fridge/freezer are never going to
be off anyhow so doesnt really matter what they use as I cant reallt
influence it.

You can however measure that it isnt doing very well and
see it replacing it will pay for itself in a reasonable time.

Gee ...you just ALWAYS have to go one better, Rot! Just what is the matter
with you? Everybody in Ozzieland ****ting on you?

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

Rod Speed wrote:


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Jeff Layman
writes
On 19/08/18 08:54, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 19 August 2018 07:36:34 UTC+1, BroadbackÂ* wrote:
They are being advertised on TV as saving electricity. Now we all know
that adverts are all accurate and never lie. But how exactly do they
save electric? Or do they mean that customers can use the information
given to save it?
Â*Their ultimate real purpose is energy demand management, in the new
world of renewable energy.Tariffs will be instantly adjustable
depending on electricity available.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management

Not quite. instantly adjustable up, long-delayed down. Just like
power supplies and petrol/diesel at present.

That is an interesting Wiki article, though. I thought the examples
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management#Examples)
were particularly informative, and a bit worrying: "The utility
companies in the state of Queensland, Australia have devices fitted
onto certain household appliances such as air conditioners or into
household meters to control water heater, pool pumps etc. These
devices would allow energy companies to remotely cycle the use of
these items during peak hours."

What is the point of having an air conditioner (or heater in cold
climates) if the electric company decides they will switch it off? It
would be bad enough not owning an air conditioner in a heatwave, but
actually having one and just sitting there watching it do nothing
because someone else is controlling it would be especially galling.

Particularly if you have a resident whose body temperature control is
not very effective and would suffer extreme distress without said air
conditioning.

There are no such people and they are free to pay more
for an unswitched service anyway.
There are susceptible people who die in heatwaves that would not with
air conditioning

"FMurtz" wrote in message
...
Rod Speed wrote:


"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , Jeff Layman
writes
On 19/08/18 08:54, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 19 August 2018 07:36:34 UTC+1, Broadback wrote:
They are being advertised on TV as saving electricity. Now we all
know
that adverts are all accurate and never lie. But how exactly do they
save electric? Or do they mean that customers can use the information
given to save it?
Their ultimate real purpose is energy demand management, in the new
world of renewable energy.Tariffs will be instantly adjustable
depending on electricity available.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management

Not quite. instantly adjustable up, long-delayed down. Just like power
supplies and petrol/diesel at present.

That is an interesting Wiki article, though. I thought the examples
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management#Examples)
were particularly informative, and a bit worrying: "The utility
companies in the state of Queensland, Australia have devices fitted
onto certain household appliances such as air conditioners or into
household meters to control water heater, pool pumps etc. These devices
would allow energy companies to remotely cycle the use of these items
during peak hours."

What is the point of having an air conditioner (or heater in cold
climates) if the electric company decides they will switch it off? It
would be bad enough not owning an air conditioner in a heatwave, but
actually having one and just sitting there watching it do nothing
because someone else is controlling it would be especially galling.

Particularly if you have a resident whose body temperature control is
not very effective and would suffer extreme distress without said air
conditioning.

There are no such people and they are free to pay more
for an unswitched service anyway.

There are susceptible people who die in heatwaves that would not with air
conditioning

Sure, but not for that reason and they are free to pay more
for an electricity supply that is never cut in a heatwave.

ss wrote:

I done that years back and never bother now. What I do is make sure
things like washing machines are full loads

Indeed so. Interestingly the cost of electricity for a dishwasher
load is less than the detergent capsule.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 12:19:58 +0100, alan_m wrote:

I've had a clip on meter for many years.

I capture the XML data stream mine produces and log it. Then have a
bit of PHP that'll plot a graph of consumption for a given day.

Then there is the useful life of the kit. I have only had 3 years
from this unit:

https://www.eco-eye.com/product-monitor-solar-smartpv

It enabled me to keep an eye on my PV system and usage. I liked
being able to glance at the display and also look at the real
time graph on my PC.

Getting a good signal for the remote display can be tricky, and I
don't have thick walls or a long distance to cope with.

The accuracy was generally acceptable, though it sometimes seemed
to imagine PV generation at night, or spells of zero usage.

However, it has now stopped working completely, and shows no
signal even if I hold it right next to the transmitter. I might
try changing channels again, but I think it is probably dead. :-(

Maybe if I am looking to replace this, I might look for something
that will do both the immersion trick and provide monitoring
data, but it does make me pessimistic about payback/ life.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 21:25:42 +0100, bert wrote:

... is that you can see your usage in "pounds and pence" why are
they
giving the potential savings in old money I wonder?

What's the new money, then?

Sigh They do say humour is wasted on t'internet.

ISTR old money had shillings...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 13:28:59 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed blabbered,
again:

There are no such people and they are free to pay more
for an unswitched service anyway.

There are susceptible people who die in heatwaves that would not with air
conditioning

Sure, but not for that reason and they are free to pay more
for an electricity supply that is never cut in a heatwave.

You just said there are no such people, Rot. Do you admit that you were
talking bull****, yet AGAIN? No? LOL

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On 20/08/2018 08:40, Chris J Dixon wrote:

However, it has now stopped working completely, and shows no
signal even if I hold it right next to the transmitter. I might
try changing channels again, but I think it is probably dead. :-(

Possibly after changing batteries there is a reset or pairing sequence
that is not detailed in the manual.

I have a British Gas branded electricity monitor that after a battery
change will not pair with the clip on sensor unless a sequence of
buttons is pressed. This sequence is not detailed in the instruction
book but is urban knowledge on the Internet. This sequence is not the
same as the first pairing instructions.

I recently changed the battery in a friends oil tank sensor. The
instructions helpfully told me to just change the battery and as the
senor and display had been previously paired the link again would be
automatically established within an hour. Fat chance . In the end I had
to start the pairing from scratch which involved again removing the
sensor from the tank and placing it in contact with the display. The
sensor has a reed switch and the display an inbuilt magnet and when
brought together the reed switch is made which puts the sensor into a
pairing mode.

The sensor battery is in a holder on a PCB which has to be removed from
the sensor casing. The PCB can be reinstalled in the casing in one of
two ways. Nowhere in the instructions does it say identify the reed
switch on the PCB and make sure that the PCB is inserted so that it is
adjacent to a (painted) spot on the outside of the sensor casing. The
pairing instructions say place the sensor with the spot adjacent to the
display (which puts the reed switch in close proximity to the magnet).
Guess what doesn't work if the PCB is inserted the wrong way around and
guess how long it took to work out what was going wrong.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Chris J Dixon wrote:

The accuracy was generally acceptable, though it sometimes seemed
to imagine PV generation at night

You got the Spanish version.

On 19/08/18 09:14, alan_m wrote:
On 19/08/2018 08:19, Richard wrote:

Yeah. Save £40 something per annum, allegedly - having a larf there.

I believe that the official figure has been revised to something like
£15 per annum

£15? That's a short evening down the pub buying your own...

On 19/08/18 13:41, alan_m wrote:
On 19/08/2018 13:32, Bill Wright wrote:
On 19/08/2018 12:26, alan_m wrote:

My energy bills have gone down because in the past year or two I'm
taking more holidays or visiting friends hence using less energy at
home.



Then there's sitting in the library reading the paper, and making a
half of mild last all evening in the pub.


All evening?Â* Half a pint would only last me 5 minutes

Do you have a sore throat?

5 seconds more like

On 20/08/18 08:34, Chris J Dixon wrote:
ss wrote:

I done that years back and never bother now. What I do is make sure
things like washing machines are full loads

Indeed so. Interestingly the cost of electricity for a dishwasher
load is less than the detergent capsule.

Chris


I metered my dishwasher and washing machine and both were using pitiful
amounts of electricity - and I wash "normal" at 60/40C and towels at 95C.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/08/18 16:56, alan_m wrote:
When the new referendum takes place and we beg to stay in the EU we will
all be using Euros.
hahaha

ROFL!

You mean when we set up the NEW EU and germany begs to join it, but we
won't have a common currency...

And there we have it - just as I've guessed with so many.

Brexiteers want the UK to be top dog again - just as it was in Victorian
times. Didn't realise just how old they actually were. Apart from Rees
Mogg, obviously.

--
*I have a degree in liberal arts -- do you want fries with that

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 19/08/2018 07:36, Broadback wrote:
They are being advertised on TV as saving electricity. Now we all know
that adverts are all accurate and never lie. But how exactly do they
save electric? Or do they mean that customers can use the information
given to save it?

Apologies if anyone else has already linked this, but this blog from
someone who seems to understand the electricity market concludes it is a
con. And the National Audit Office is due to report in the Autumn,
apparently.

http://watt-logic.com/2018/08/20/myth-3/