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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

Hi All,

I was nearly tempted to get one of the impact screwdrivers as
mentioned here a while back but I couldn't really see a need and
wasn't sure how / when I would use it?

It also looked like it was a hex drive and so limiting what sort of
things you could drive with it (compared with a chuck)?

At the market yesterday I picked up a set of hex drive to square drive
adaptors (1/4, 3/8 and 1/2") with the thought of using them in my
Stanley Fat Max cordless impact drill (on speed one) as a form of
electric nut runner (mainly for removing machine screws / nuts) and I
wondered what the RW difference would be between that and the impact
driver?

Cheers, T i m
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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On 18/08/2018 21:36, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

I was nearly tempted to get one of the impact screwdrivers as
mentioned here a while back but I couldn't really see a need and
wasn't sure how / when I would use it?


Every time you stick a screw in basically. (also leaves you drill free
to have a drill in it without continuous bit swapping)

It also looked like it was a hex drive and so limiting what sort of
things you could drive with it (compared with a chuck)?


Yup, although if you really want drill bits with hex shank you can get
them.

At the market yesterday I picked up a set of hex drive to square drive
adaptors (1/4, 3/8 and 1/2") with the thought of using them in my
Stanley Fat Max cordless impact drill (on speed one) as a form of
electric nut runner (mainly for removing machine screws / nuts) and I
wondered what the RW difference would be between that and the impact
driver?


Max torque on the drill will be significantly lower. Many 18V drills top
out at about 60Nm, and 18V ID will do north of 150Nm (although for
comparison a full on cordless impact wrench will usually do several
times that). Also the rotational impact action can be better at freeing
stuck fastenings than continuous torque.



--
Cheers,

John.

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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On 19/08/2018 03:51, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/08/2018 21:36, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

I was nearly tempted to get one of the impact screwdrivers as
mentioned here a while back but I couldn't really see a need and
wasn't sure how / when I would use it?


Every time you stick a screw in basically. (also leaves you drill free
to have a drill in it without continuous bit swapping)

It also looked like it was a hex drive and so limiting what sort of
things you could drive with it (compared with a chuck)?


Yup, although if you really want drill bits with hex shank you can get
them.

At the market yesterday I picked up a set of hex drive to square drive
adaptors (1/4, 3/8 and 1/2") with the thought of using them in my
Stanley Fat Max cordless impact drill (on speed one) as a form of
electric nut runner (mainly for removing machine screws / nuts) and I
wondered what the RW difference would be between that and the impact
driver?


Max torque on the drill will be significantly lower. Many 18V drills top
out at about 60Nm, and 18V ID will do north of 150Nm (although for
comparison a full on cordless impact wrench will usually do several
times that). Also the rotational impact action can be better at freeing
stuck fastenings than continuous torque.



+1. Once you actually use one you won't want to give it up.
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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 03:51:34 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 18/08/2018 21:36, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

I was nearly tempted to get one of the impact screwdrivers as
mentioned here a while back but I couldn't really see a need and
wasn't sure how / when I would use it?


Every time you stick a screw in basically. (also leaves you drill free
to have a drill in it without continuous bit swapping)


I have more than one drill. ;-)

It also looked like it was a hex drive and so limiting what sort of
things you could drive with it (compared with a chuck)?


Yup, although if you really want drill bits with hex shank you can get
them.


I have, admittedly mostly cheap ones ... you know, where the drill bit
turns in the hex under any real load ... ;-(

At the market yesterday I picked up a set of hex drive to square drive
adaptors (1/4, 3/8 and 1/2") with the thought of using them in my
Stanley Fat Max cordless impact drill (on speed one) as a form of
electric nut runner (mainly for removing machine screws / nuts) and I
wondered what the RW difference would be between that and the impact
driver?


Max torque on the drill will be significantly lower.


Always John?

Many 18V drills top
out at about 60Nm, and 18V ID will do north of 150Nm


I appreciate you said 'many' but I would have to say my Fat Max
probably deals out as much torque as I can handle (or it feels like it
when I've disabled the clutch and a 1/2" bit snags in something)?

(although for
comparison a full on cordless impact wrench will usually do several
times that).


Ok.

Also the rotational impact action can be better at freeing
stuck fastenings than continuous torque.


Understood.

I wonder if I was conflating an electric screwdriver with an electric
impact wrench / rattle gun?

I have a 12V rattle gun that is less of a rattle and more of a
clunk-clunk-clunk and I think the only time I used it (a tight wheel
nut) it didn't do any more than I could with the spider brace.

The only time I might use an electric drill / driver on any fastener
is when doing loads when speed is more important that finish or
tightening torque, like assembling a wooden shed. Eg, On anything
'important' I much prefer the feel and control of a manual screwdriver
(or spanner etc).

Do you use an electric driver on your furniture builds OOI John?

Cheers, T i m
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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 10:57:40 +0100, newshound
wrote:

snip

Max torque on the drill will be significantly lower. Many 18V drills top
out at about 60Nm, and 18V ID will do north of 150Nm (although for
comparison a full on cordless impact wrench will usually do several
times that). Also the rotational impact action can be better at freeing
stuck fastenings than continuous torque.



+1. Once you actually use one you won't want to give it up.


So, I've used an electric screwdriver (the good Bosch one) and it was
'good', but for me, only for those repetitive jobs where control
wasn't an issue (especially running slotted brass screws into a brass
hinge etc).

But even with a clutch and on 'rough and ready jobs', you would get
some screw heads buried in the timber and others not deep enough to
create their own countersink?

For undoing loads of cross-head screws I can see how they could be of
use (I've used my drill driver for that many times).

What would you suggest would be the typical 'perfect example' of a job
for such a driver?

Cheers, T i m


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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On 19/08/2018 11:13, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 03:51:34 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:



The only time I might use an electric drill / driver on any fastener
is when doing loads when speed is more important that finish or
tightening torque, like assembling a wooden shed. Eg, On anything
'important' I much prefer the feel and control of a manual screwdriver
(or spanner etc).


I only have a brace of Makitas, but the impact driver is *much* more
controllable than the drill (I hardly ever use the clutch on the drill,
though). The impact driver must be ten times faster than a manual
screwdriver.


Do you use an electric driver on your furniture builds OOI John?

Cheers, T i m


I use mine on everything except electronics (and still use it on washing
machines, vacuums, etc).
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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 12:11:07 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 19/08/2018 11:13, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 03:51:34 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:



The only time I might use an electric drill / driver on any fastener
is when doing loads when speed is more important that finish or
tightening torque, like assembling a wooden shed. Eg, On anything
'important' I much prefer the feel and control of a manual screwdriver
(or spanner etc).


I only have a brace of Makitas, but the impact driver is *much* more
controllable than the drill


Because?

(I hardly ever use the clutch on the drill,
though).


I do but generally only to minimise the risk of it doing something I
wouldn't with a manual screwdriver?

The impact driver must be ten times faster than a manual
screwdriver.


Understood ... but what if time isn't an issue?


Do you use an electric driver on your furniture builds OOI John?


I use mine on everything


Ok, and what is yours OOI (make / model)?

except electronics


My mate uses one on laptops all the time, but then he's running a PC
shop where time is important.

(and still use it on washing
machines, vacuums, etc).


I could see the value if you were a very busy person and / or time is
the issue but how many screws are there in a vacuum and does the bit
on reach all the screws? I'm not suggesting that it's isn't able to
meet all those, just checking if it does? ;-)

I used my drill driver as a driver the other day for screwing decking
type planks onto the top of an 'outdoor bench' using ss turbo screws
.... because there were loads of screws, the holes were already
countersunk, the wood consistently soft and the clutch able to drive
most screws home but without overdoing them. I still had to finish a
off few by hand because they had hit denser timber and I didn't want
to have to adjust the clutch just for them.

I can't see how you can have both speed (like with a drill) and
control, especially without the use of a clutch.

My Stanley Fat Max, on speed one and with the clutch disabled can go
as slow as I want with as much torque as I want to the point where it
would easily shear most screws off (or break my wrist). ;-(

I can see the value of something like my old Bosch electric
screwdriver as whilst it wasn't exactly fast it had reasonable torque
(considering) and because you held it like an ordinary screwdriver,
would fit anywhere an ordinary screwdriver would fit and because of
the auto-locking function to the drive, you could 'finish off' a screw
manually if you wanted (to get the tension 'just right').

I have used my mates electric (corded to it's own adjustable PSU) to
*undo* laptop screws but not do them up (fear of cross threading or
over-tightening and ripping the insert out of the plastic).

Cheers, T i m
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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

In article ,
T i m wrote:
I was nearly tempted to get one of the impact screwdrivers as
mentioned here a while back but I couldn't really see a need and
wasn't sure how / when I would use it?


Totally different devices.

A hammer drill bashes the drill bit in and out. And impact driver bashes a
screw round.

--
*What was the best thing before sliced bread? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On 19/08/2018 11:13, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 03:51:34 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 18/08/2018 21:36, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

I was nearly tempted to get one of the impact screwdrivers as
mentioned here a while back but I couldn't really see a need and
wasn't sure how / when I would use it?


Every time you stick a screw in basically. (also leaves you drill free
to have a drill in it without continuous bit swapping)


I have more than one drill. ;-)

It also looked like it was a hex drive and so limiting what sort of
things you could drive with it (compared with a chuck)?


Yup, although if you really want drill bits with hex shank you can get
them.


I have, admittedly mostly cheap ones ... you know, where the drill bit
turns in the hex under any real load ... ;-(


Yup, I know the kind of thing ;-)


At the market yesterday I picked up a set of hex drive to square drive
adaptors (1/4, 3/8 and 1/2") with the thought of using them in my
Stanley Fat Max cordless impact drill (on speed one) as a form of
electric nut runner (mainly for removing machine screws / nuts) and I
wondered what the RW difference would be between that and the impact
driver?


Max torque on the drill will be significantly lower.


Always John?


Pretty much if you compare like with like...

I mean my 18V combi drill has more torque than my tiny 7.2V ID
screwdriver, but that's not really an appropriate comparison.

Many 18V drills top
out at about 60Nm, and 18V ID will do north of 150Nm


I appreciate you said 'many' but I would have to say my Fat Max
probably deals out as much torque as I can handle (or it feels like it
when I've disabled the clutch and a 1/2" bit snags in something)?


That is one of the areas where an ID is much better - because the torque
is delivered in short impulses, you get far less reaction at the
drill... much of it is dissipated accelerating the inertia of the tool
body, rather than twisting your wrist. That is why its much easier to
use an ID at arms length than a drill - you don't need to get your
weight behind it in the same way.


(although for
comparison a full on cordless impact wrench will usually do several
times that).


Ok.

Also the rotational impact action can be better at freeing
stuck fastenings than continuous torque.


Understood.

I wonder if I was conflating an electric screwdriver with an electric
impact wrench / rattle gun?


Possibly...

"Electric screwdriver" can include anything from the 2.8V B&D
screwdriver up really - at the low end they turn and can spin screws in
and out but usually lack the oomph to do the final tightening. You move
on up through drill/drivers of varies sizes to some that have fairly
significant torque.

The hand held ID:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Impact_driver

Is a different device altogether - and is like a smaller electric
derivation of a pneumatic impact wrench.

I have a 12V rattle gun that is less of a rattle and more of a
clunk-clunk-clunk and I think the only time I used it (a tight wheel
nut) it didn't do any more than I could with the spider brace.


You can get significant toque on a manual brace etc - although somewhat
more physical effort. I would have thought that a 12V ID is probably a
bit small for wheel nuts... although they are popular with scaffolders.

The only time I might use an electric drill / driver on any fastener
is when doing loads when speed is more important that finish or
tightening torque, like assembling a wooden shed. Eg, On anything
'important' I much prefer the feel and control of a manual screwdriver
(or spanner etc).

Do you use an electric driver on your furniture builds OOI John?


I use powered screw driving for *everything* unless I am forced to do it
some other way! These days I will reach for one of my IDs in preference
to a normal drill/driver in most of those cases.

I have a small 10.8V Makita ID that I use more on furniture and lighter
fixings (although it will happily drive a 2.5" 12 gauge screw into a
wall plug if you want it to). Mainly because its very small and light.
Easy to get into tight places and reach screws that would be difficult
by hand (inside cabinets etc).

When building stuff, then my 18V ID is my preference since it will lob
in 2" twinthread screws without a pilot, with next to zero effort or
fatigue on me.



Cheers, T i m



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On 19/08/2018 12:40, T i m wrote:

I can't see how you can have both speed (like with a drill) and
control, especially without the use of a clutch.


I find clutches are a mixed blessing when trying to set screws to
consistent depth etc. In reality even if the clutch is good and offers
accurate repeatability, its rare that the material you are screwing into
does. So some finessing after the fact is still likely.

With an ID you can develop a "feel" for it and depth setting. I know for
example that if I want plenty of yield to not over drive something I can
use less speed (fewer impacts/min) but also hold the body of the driver
"looser" to allow the impact to kick the tool body a bit more if the
screw reaches its end stop.




--
Cheers,

John.

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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On 19/08/2018 12:04, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 10:57:40 +0100, newshound
wrote:

snip

Max torque on the drill will be significantly lower. Many 18V drills top
out at about 60Nm, and 18V ID will do north of 150Nm (although for
comparison a full on cordless impact wrench will usually do several
times that). Also the rotational impact action can be better at freeing
stuck fastenings than continuous torque.



+1. Once you actually use one you won't want to give it up.


So, I've used an electric screwdriver (the good Bosch one) and it was
'good', but for me, only for those repetitive jobs where control
wasn't an issue (especially running slotted brass screws into a brass
hinge etc).

But even with a clutch and on 'rough and ready jobs', you would get
some screw heads buried in the timber and others not deep enough to
create their own countersink?


Not a problem with a Makita impact driver IME. Because the control is
*far better* than with a standard drill driver. Even if you do go too
far you can back out one "click" which won't matter assuming you have
multiple screws. OK if you were doing really fancy cabinet work with
brass screws in hardwood you might want to finish off with a hand
screwdriver, especially if using slotted screws where the slots all need
to align.

That's the only sort of place where I would use slotted screws, BTW.


For undoing loads of cross-head screws I can see how they could be of
use (I've used my drill driver for that many times).

What would you suggest would be the typical 'perfect example' of a job
for such a driver?

Cheers, T i m


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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On 19/08/2018 12:40, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 12:11:07 +0100, newshound
wrote:

On 19/08/2018 11:13, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 03:51:34 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:



The only time I might use an electric drill / driver on any fastener
is when doing loads when speed is more important that finish or
tightening torque, like assembling a wooden shed. Eg, On anything
'important' I much prefer the feel and control of a manual screwdriver
(or spanner etc).


I only have a brace of Makitas, but the impact driver is *much* more
controllable than the drill


Because?


Because there is a lot of travel on the trigger for a small change in
angular speed.



(I hardly ever use the clutch on the drill,
though).


I do but generally only to minimise the risk of it doing something I
wouldn't with a manual screwdriver?

The impact driver must be ten times faster than a manual
screwdriver.


Understood ... but what if time isn't an issue?


Do you use an electric driver on your furniture builds OOI John?


I use mine on everything


Ok, and what is yours OOI (make / model)?


The obsolete Makita with the 14.4 NiCad, in my case. Same charger as my
18v drill driver. Batteries from both work on the DAB site radio too.
Charger will also do NiMH. I have some tagged NiMH sub D's to upgrade
worn out packs when I get round to it.



except electronics


My mate uses one on laptops all the time, but then he's running a PC
shop where time is important.

(and still use it on washing
machines, vacuums, etc).


I could see the value if you were a very busy person and / or time is
the issue but how many screws are there in a vacuum and does the bit
on reach all the screws? I'm not suggesting that it's isn't able to
meet all those, just checking if it does? ;-)


50 mm bits reach most things. Occasionally you will get one which is
more deeply recessed and needs an ordinary screwdriver.

Often not so many screws on a vacuum but you might have ten on the back
of a washing machine including the lid.


I used my drill driver as a driver the other day for screwing decking
type planks onto the top of an 'outdoor bench' using ss turbo screws
... because there were loads of screws, the holes were already
countersunk, the wood consistently soft and the clutch able to drive
most screws home but without overdoing them. I still had to finish a
off few by hand because they had hit denser timber and I didn't want
to have to adjust the clutch just for them.


Ideal job for impact driver.

I can't see how you can have both speed (like with a drill) and
control, especially without the use of a clutch.


There's no point explaining any more. You just need to borrow one and
see for yourself. The control system is really smart. It just is.

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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On 19/08/2018 15:06, John Rumm wrote:
On 19/08/2018 11:13, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 03:51:34 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 18/08/2018 21:36, T i m wrote:
Hi All,

I was nearly tempted to get one of the impact screwdrivers as
mentioned here a while back but I couldn't really see a need and
wasn't sure how / when I would use it?

Every time you stick a screw in basically. (also leaves you drill free
to have a drill in it without continuous bit swapping)


I have more than one drill. ;-)

It also looked like it was a hex drive and so limiting what sort of
things you could drive with it (compared with a chuck)?

Yup, although if you really want drill bits with hex shank you can get
them.


I have, admittedly mostly cheap ones ... you know, where the drill bit
turns in the hex under any real load ... ;-(


Yup, I know the kind of thing ;-)


At the market yesterday I picked up a set of hex drive to square drive
adaptors (1/4, 3/8 and 1/2") with the thought of using them in my
Stanley Fat Max cordless impact drill (on speed one) as a form of
electric nut runner (mainly for removing machine screws / nuts) and I
wondered what the RW difference would be between that and the impact
driver?

Max torque on the drill will be significantly lower.


Always John?


Pretty much if you compare like with like...

I mean my 18V combi drill has more torque than my tiny 7.2V ID
screwdriver, but that's not really an appropriate comparison.

Many 18V drills top
out at about 60Nm, and 18V ID will do north of 150Nm


I appreciate you said 'many' but I would have to say my Fat Max
probably deals out as much torque as I can handle (or it feels like it
when I've disabled the clutch and a 1/2" bit snags in something)?


That is one of the areas where an ID is much better - because the torque
is delivered in short impulses, you get far less reaction at the
drill... much of it is dissipated accelerating the inertia of the tool
body, rather than twisting your wrist. That is why its much easier to
use an ID at arms length than a drill - you don't need to get your
weight behind it in the same way.


(although for
comparison a full on cordless impact wrench will usually do several
times that).


Ok.

Also the rotational impact action can be better at freeing
stuck fastenings than continuous torque.


Understood.

I wonder if I was conflating an electric screwdriver with an electric
impact wrench / rattle gun?


Possibly...

"Electric screwdriver" can include anything from the 2.8V B&D
screwdriver up really - at the low end they turn and can spin screws in
and out but usually lack the oomph to do the final tightening. You move
on up through drill/drivers of varies sizes to some that have fairly
significant torque.

The hand held ID:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Impact_driver

Is a different device altogether - and is like a smaller electric
derivation of a pneumatic impact wrench.

I have a 12V rattle gun that is less of a rattle and more of a
clunk-clunk-clunk and I think the only time I used it (a tight wheel
nut) it didn't do any more than I could with the spider brace.


You can get significant toque on a manual brace etc - although somewhat
more physical effort. I would have thought that a 12V ID is probably a
bit small for wheel nuts... although they are popular with scaffolders.

The only time I might use an electric drill / driver on any fastener
is when doing loads when speed is more important that finish or
tightening torque, like assembling a wooden shed. Eg, On anything
'important' I much prefer the feel and control of a manual screwdriver
(or spanner etc).

Do you use an electric driver on your furniture builds OOI John?


I use powered screw driving for *everything* unless I am forced to do it
some other way! These days I will reach for one of my IDs in preference
to a normal drill/driver in most of those cases.

I have a small 10.8V Makita ID that I use more on furniture and lighter
fixings (although it will happily drive a 2.5" 12 gauge screw into a
wall plug if you want it to). Mainly because its very small and light.
Easy to get into tight places and reach screws that would be difficult
by hand (inside cabinets etc).


Bought my lad a pair of these when he was supplementing his income by
helping a builder friend. He reckoned the drill driver wasn't far off my
18v NiCad for "oomph".


When building stuff, then my 18V ID is my preference since it will lob
in 2" twinthread screws without a pilot, with next to zero effort or
fatigue on me.


I'm still amazed how well my old Mak ID is working with 14.4 NiCads.
I've replaced a couple of the packs with unbranded third party clones
and the performance and life is indistinguishable from genuine.




Cheers, T i m




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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 15:06:22 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

I appreciate you said 'many' but I would have to say my Fat Max
probably deals out as much torque as I can handle (or it feels like it
when I've disabled the clutch and a 1/2" bit snags in something)?


That is one of the areas where an ID is much better - because the torque
is delivered in short impulses, you get far less reaction at the
drill... much of it is dissipated accelerating the inertia of the tool
body, rather than twisting your wrist.


Ah, so the focus really is on 'impact' as opposed to 'driver'?

That is why its much easier to
use an ID at arms length than a drill - you don't need to get your
weight behind it in the same way.


Understood.

snip

I wonder if I was conflating an electric screwdriver with an electric
impact wrench / rattle gun?


Possibly...

"Electric screwdriver" can include anything from the 2.8V B&D
screwdriver up really - at the low end they turn and can spin screws in
and out but usually lack the oomph to do the final tightening.


That is my experience of them (but not with my Fat Max drill etc).

You move
on up through drill/drivers of varies sizes to some that have fairly
significant torque.


Ok.

The hand held ID:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Impact_driver

Is a different device altogether - and is like a smaller electric
derivation of a pneumatic impact wrench.


Sorry, are you saying the link is to what you are saying has become
your go-to against a manual screwdriver as it seems to confirm
everything I thought might be the case against them V a good cordless
drill, plus some I hadn't considered (like the noise levels)? ;-(

I have a 12V rattle gun that is less of a rattle and more of a
clunk-clunk-clunk and I think the only time I used it (a tight wheel
nut) it didn't do any more than I could with the spider brace.


You can get significant toque on a manual brace etc - although somewhat
more physical effort. I would have thought that a 12V ID is probably a
bit small for wheel nuts... although they are popular with scaffolders.


This one wouldn't be as it requires an external 12V battery. ;-)

The only time I might use an electric drill / driver on any fastener
is when doing loads when speed is more important that finish or
tightening torque, like assembling a wooden shed. Eg, On anything
'important' I much prefer the feel and control of a manual screwdriver
(or spanner etc).

Do you use an electric driver on your furniture builds OOI John?


I use powered screw driving for *everything* unless I am forced to do it
some other way! These days I will reach for one of my IDs in preference
to a normal drill/driver in most of those cases.


Ok?

I have a small 10.8V Makita ID that I use more on furniture and lighter
fixings (although it will happily drive a 2.5" 12 gauge screw into a
wall plug if you want it to). Mainly because its very small and light.
Easy to get into tight places and reach screws that would be difficult
by hand (inside cabinets etc).


Ok, that latter statement sounds like an advantage (over a pistol grip
drill), like my old Bosch electric screwdriver. ;-)

When building stuff, then my 18V ID is my preference since it will lob
in 2" twinthread screws without a pilot, with next to zero effort or
fatigue on me.


Like my drill (has, 200 times in one session). I can see I'll have to
get an ID, just to see what the buzz is all about (and possibly some
earplugs for my Tinnitus). ;-)

Can you recommend a VFM one ... one that I can afford to leave in a
draw if it doesn't turn out to be a boon for me? Was the recent Lidl
one a good deal?

Cheers, T i m
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On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 03:51:34 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

Max torque on the drill will be significantly lower. Many 18V drills top
out at about 60Nm,


JOOI, mine is 48 apparently:

http://service.dewalt.co.uk/DEWALT/G...Detail?id=9223

Although mine is marked 'Stanley Fat Max'. ;-)

https://www.stanleytools.co.uk/power...ammer-drill-18

Cheers, T i m


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On 20/08/2018 00:42, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 19 Aug 2018 15:06:22 +0100, John Rumm


That is one of the areas where an ID is much better - because the torque
is delivered in short impulses, you get far less reaction at the
drill... much of it is dissipated accelerating the inertia of the tool
body, rather than twisting your wrist.


Ah, so the focus really is on 'impact' as opposed to 'driver'?


It drives screws in a different way to a normal driver... Bit like the
difference between puling on a spanner, and tapping it round with a hammer.


Possibly...

"Electric screwdriver" can include anything from the 2.8V B&D
screwdriver up really - at the low end they turn and can spin screws in
and out but usually lack the oomph to do the final tightening.


That is my experience of them (but not with my Fat Max drill etc).

You move
on up through drill/drivers of varies sizes to some that have fairly
significant torque.


Ok.


Big DDs have plenty of torque (my latest 18V Mak has something in excess
of 90Nm - plus a big FOff side handle to save twisting your wrist off if
you plan to use all of it). That's the same amount of torque as my 10.8V
ID - however the latter does not need a side handle or the wrists of
Hercules to sue safely.


The hand held ID:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Impact_driver

Is a different device altogether - and is like a smaller electric
derivation of a pneumatic impact wrench.


Sorry, are you saying the link is to what you are saying has become
your go-to against a manual screwdriver as it seems to confirm
everything I thought might be the case against them V a good cordless
drill, plus some I hadn't considered (like the noise levels)? ;-(


The link shows a picture of my older 18V ID - I tend to use that (or its
replacement) and the 10.8V ones for most things. Manual screwdrivers are
occasionally handy for taking apart computers etc, but most other stuff
I do with the ID.

I have a 12V rattle gun that is less of a rattle and more of a
clunk-clunk-clunk and I think the only time I used it (a tight wheel
nut) it didn't do any more than I could with the spider brace.


You can get significant toque on a manual brace etc - although somewhat
more physical effort. I would have thought that a 12V ID is probably a
bit small for wheel nuts... although they are popular with scaffolders.


This one wouldn't be as it requires an external 12V battery. ;-)


Ah, yup the kind of thing designed to sit in the boot waiting to free a
wheel nut after clipping its leads onto the car battery.

The only time I might use an electric drill / driver on any fastener
is when doing loads when speed is more important that finish or
tightening torque, like assembling a wooden shed. Eg, On anything
'important' I much prefer the feel and control of a manual screwdriver
(or spanner etc).

Do you use an electric driver on your furniture builds OOI John?


I use powered screw driving for *everything* unless I am forced to do it
some other way! These days I will reach for one of my IDs in preference
to a normal drill/driver in most of those cases.


Ok?

I have a small 10.8V Makita ID that I use more on furniture and lighter
fixings (although it will happily drive a 2.5" 12 gauge screw into a
wall plug if you want it to). Mainly because its very small and light.
Easy to get into tight places and reach screws that would be difficult
by hand (inside cabinets etc).


Ok, that latter statement sounds like an advantage (over a pistol grip
drill), like my old Bosch electric screwdriver. ;-)


This is my one:

https://www.lawson-his.co.uk/makita-...pact-d-p154827

I got it in a twin pack with a small Combi drill, which is much the same
size - but a little longer with the chuck on it. You can get a sense of
scale from the picture of that in my hand:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...AndSpacing.jpg

When building stuff, then my 18V ID is my preference since it will lob
in 2" twinthread screws without a pilot, with next to zero effort or
fatigue on me.


Like my drill (has, 200 times in one session). I can see I'll have to
get an ID, just to see what the buzz is all about (and possibly some
earplugs for my Tinnitus). ;-)


They are not so loud locally (not as bad as a hammer drill say) - but
the noise does travel more through the fabric of a building.

Can you recommend a VFM one ... one that I can afford to leave in a
draw if it doesn't turn out to be a boon for me? Was the recent Lidl
one a good deal?


Don't know - not seen the Lidl one. If you already have a set of
something reasonable with battery and charger, then it is quite cheap to
by a decent one "body only" and use your existing batts and charger.

To be fair, before I got my first one, I was sceptical as to whether it
would prove better than my combi drill. Having got used to it, I very
rarely use a drill from screw driving... (plasterboard screws with a
shrouded bit being about the only time the DD is better - quieter and
you want the thing to "cam out" when the screw gets tight!)

--
Cheers,

John.

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On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 00:42:53 +0100, T i m wrote:

"Electric screwdriver" can include anything from the 2.8V B&D
screwdriver up really - at the low end they turn and can spin

screws in
and out but usually lack the oomph to do the final tightening.


That is my experience of them (but not with my Fat Max drill etc).


Have an ancient B&D screwdriver, has a gear box between motor and bit
drive and gives plenty of torque. The trade off is that it doesn't
spin things in or out particulary fast. It's still quicker and easier
than a manual screwdriver. As the gear box locks when not driven by
the motor it also makes for a very powerful, by virtue of the large
grip, manual screwdriver as well.

Don't use the ordinary drill/driver to drive screws. The control of
speed and torque is far too tricky. Give it enough "go" to get a fast
drive, when the screw gets tight the torque shoots up as the motor is
stalled and the bit chews the screw head or cams out and bounces
across the work...

Can you get a linear screwdriver style impact drivers or are they all
pistol grip type things?

--
Cheers
Dave.



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On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 09:20:54 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 00:42:53 +0100, T i m wrote:

"Electric screwdriver" can include anything from the 2.8V B&D
screwdriver up really - at the low end they turn and can spin

screws in
and out but usually lack the oomph to do the final tightening.


That is my experience of them (but not with my Fat Max drill etc).


Have an ancient B&D screwdriver, has a gear box between motor and bit
drive and gives plenty of torque.


Same with my old Bosch driver, considering how old / basic it is.

The trade off is that it doesn't
spin things in or out particulary fast.


True, but if you aren't doing stuff for a living ... ?

It's still quicker and easier
than a manual screwdriver.


Agreed. I *can* see the advantages / benefits to a straight electric
screwdriver.

As the gear box locks when not driven by
the motor it also makes for a very powerful, by virtue of the large
grip, manual screwdriver as well.


Agreed, although I'm not sure that feature applies to all electric
screwdrivers (especially 'in those days')?

Don't use the ordinary drill/driver to drive screws.


Ok? ;-)

The control of
speed and torque is far too tricky.


Again, I think that can be very much down to the quality / power /
design of the drill. O=I have driven many screws with my Fat Max to
the point where I have been questioning why anyone would want anything
different? Maybe those here who are advocates of the ID haven't
actually used such a DD?

Give it enough "go" to get a fast
drive, when the screw gets tight the torque shoots up as the motor is
stalled and the bit chews the screw head or cams out and bounces
across the work...


Yup and exactly what I don't get with my drill. I squeeze the trigger
and the drill starts of at about 1 rev per second and will carry on at
that speed till the screw is buried deep in the wood?

I have the drill here and if I put the chuck on 22 (of 22) and squeeze
the trigger I can't hold it back with my hand when it's turning very
slowly. Put it on 10 and the chuck 'hammers' and still going so slowly
that you could easily count the rotations.

Maybe not all cordless drill drivers are created equal?

Can you get a linear screwdriver style impact drivers or are they all
pistol grip type things?


I think you can get some that can be both.

Cheers, T i m

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On 20/08/2018 09:20, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Can you get a linear screwdriver style impact drivers or are they all
pistol grip type things?


This one has a hinge in the middle - so you can use it pistol style or
straight:

https://www.lawson-his.co.uk/makita-...and-carry-case



--
Cheers,

John.

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On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 11:23:22 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 20/08/2018 09:20, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Can you get a linear screwdriver style impact drivers or are they all
pistol grip type things?


This one has a hinge in the middle - so you can use it pistol style or
straight:

https://www.lawson-his.co.uk/makita-...and-carry-case


I deffo need to see if anyone I know has an ID and give it a go.

I don't (currently) have any other cordless power tools (than the Fat
Max drill, never needed them ducks) to already have batteries and
charger so that makes it an expensive entry to the field. ;-(

Cheers, T i m



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On 20/08/2018 12:06, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 11:23:22 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 20/08/2018 09:20, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Can you get a linear screwdriver style impact drivers or are they all
pistol grip type things?


This one has a hinge in the middle - so you can use it pistol style or
straight:

https://www.lawson-his.co.uk/makita-...and-carry-case


I deffo need to see if anyone I know has an ID and give it a go.

I don't (currently) have any other cordless power tools (than the Fat
Max drill, never needed them ducks) to already have batteries and
charger so that makes it an expensive entry to the field. ;-(


If that is a re-badged DeWalt, would it not make sense to get an 18V
DeWalt ID "body only"?

Having said that there seems to be only limited choice of dewalt/fatmax
body only tools... e.g:

https://www.trade-point.co.uk/depart...682357_TP.prd#

which is a bit more pricey since its the brushless version.




--
Cheers,

John.

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On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 12:58:54 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

If that is a re-badged DeWalt, would it not make sense to get an 18V
DeWalt ID "body only"?


Yes / no. It may be that for the cost of the body only I could get a
complete stand-alone solution that would be more than adequate for my
needs, given that it may not be as versatile as my existing (hammer)
drill driver ... or, it wouldn't be the best example of the genre for
a given price.

Also, the advantage to *me* of a ID over my existing (and so far,
perfectly adequate) DD, could be less than that for those who sound
like they might have 'weak' DD's?


Having said that there seems to be only limited choice of dewalt/fatmax
body only tools... e.g:

https://www.trade-point.co.uk/depart...682357_TP.prd#

which is a bit more pricey since its the brushless version.


Sure.

The 'hype' here from some re ID's makes me want to give one a go (I
particularly respect your POV because I know you do your research, do
lots of nice work and have a wide range of tools, including (probably)
'good' DD's) but I keep harking back to the diy wiki that seems to
share my questions / reservations on ID's over DD's for 'most'
applications?

How much would I want to spend if my existing DD does (guess) 90% of
what any single tool could do (for *me*) and how much work of the type
where an ID might be 'better' do I do and so at what cost.

I'm not suggesting you are trying to pressure or convince me to get an
ID of course g, I'm just thinking out loud why / how / when an ID
could be 'worth it' to me? (Considering I rarely even need an excuse
to buy more tools). ;-)

Cheers, T i m
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On 20/08/2018 13:28, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 12:58:54 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

If that is a re-badged DeWalt, would it not make sense to get an 18V
DeWalt ID "body only"?


Yes / no. It may be that for the cost of the body only I could get a
complete stand-alone solution that would be more than adequate for my
needs, given that it may not be as versatile as my existing (hammer)
drill driver ... or, it wouldn't be the best example of the genre for
a given price.

Also, the advantage to *me* of a ID over my existing (and so far,
perfectly adequate) DD, could be less than that for those who sound
like they might have 'weak' DD's?


If I were only allowed one rotational cordless tool, then I would go for
the 18V combi drill, since its the most versatile and will replace a
mains drill in most situations. I use mine for drilling - even with hole
saws and big augers, mixing plaster / small quantities of mortar etc and
various other jobs. It will also drive screws just fine. Armed with some
Bosch multimaterial bits it will even make a credible job on hard
masonry, when you don't want to get the SDS out.

If I were adding a ID at that point, then I am torn between the 18V and
the much smaller lighter 10.8V, but I would probably for for the 18V ID
as it is fast and powerful - it will hurl screws into joists, and
studwork very quickly and easily, and can also be fairly fine and
controlled if required. For building work I would not want to be without
it. However keep in mind I do a reasonable amount of what one might
class as building rather than more traditional DIY.

The smaller lighter one however is nice for smaller trim type work, and
furniture making - while I could cope without it (and indeed did for
years), its a "nice to have". (and in reality is has a much driving
torque as my big combi).

This is the 10.8V set I got (note there is another version about that
looks similar but only has a DD rather than a combi - so read the spec
carefully). This is the bag I would grab for many "fixing" applications.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Makita-DK14...+impact+driver

Having said that there seems to be only limited choice of dewalt/fatmax
body only tools... e.g:

https://www.trade-point.co.uk/depart...682357_TP.prd#

which is a bit more pricey since its the brushless version.


Sure.

The 'hype' here from some re ID's makes me want to give one a go (I
particularly respect your POV because I know you do your research, do
lots of nice work and have a wide range of tools, including (probably)
'good' DD's) but I keep harking back to the diy wiki that seems to
share my questions / reservations on ID's over DD's for 'most'
applications?


Probably worth keeping in mind that much of that wiki article was
written some time back when IDs were way more expensive and there was
much less in the way of choice. Also some of the content was directed at
the frequent discussions going on here at the time suggesting that IDs
were good general replacement for a drill, or an angle drill, or just
confusing them with the mechanic's tool of the same name.

Might be time to tweak it a bit.

How much would I want to spend if my existing DD does (guess) 90% of
what any single tool could do (for *me*) and how much work of the type
where an ID might be 'better' do I do and so at what cost.


Much will come down to how much work you do with it, and also what type
you do. Not to mention how comfortable you are with powered screw
driving in general - some of it takes practice to develop technique to
do it easily.

I'm not suggesting you are trying to pressure or convince me to get an
ID of course g, I'm just thinking out loud why / how / when an ID
could be 'worth it' to me? (Considering I rarely even need an excuse
to buy more tools). ;-)


Nope not trying to pressure, more a suggestion that it would be worth
having a play with one and getting a feel for it. You may be pleasantly
surprised...

Some years back I did that with the one you see in the wiki - which at
the time cost me about £70 "body only" IIRC (where buying a full kit
would have been more like £300). I figured I could always stick it on
ebay if it did not work out. I have since acquired more of them on the
grounds that I found it more than good enough to warrant it.

I think there are three tools where I have had that kind of "wow, that
is so much better" moment... using a quality jigsaw after the DIY spec
ones, using a SDS drill after a normal "hammer" drill, and using an
impact driver after doing lots of powered driving with the combi drill.

(and keep in mind I built a whole loft conversion with that combi and
was not in any way dissatisfied with it - I rate it as an outstandingly
good tool)




--
Cheers,

John.

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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On 20/08/2018 13:28, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 12:58:54 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

If that is a re-badged DeWalt, would it not make sense to get an 18V
DeWalt ID "body only"?


Yes / no. It may be that for the cost of the body only I could get a
complete stand-alone solution that would be more than adequate for my
needs, given that it may not be as versatile as my existing (hammer)
drill driver ... or, it wouldn't be the best example of the genre for
a given price.

Also, the advantage to *me* of a ID over my existing (and so far,
perfectly adequate) DD, could be less than that for those who sound
like they might have 'weak' DD's?


Having said that there seems to be only limited choice of dewalt/fatmax
body only tools... e.g:

https://www.trade-point.co.uk/depart...682357_TP.prd#

which is a bit more pricey since its the brushless version.


Sure.

The 'hype' here from some re ID's makes me want to give one a go (I
particularly respect your POV because I know you do your research, do
lots of nice work and have a wide range of tools, including (probably)
'good' DD's) but I keep harking back to the diy wiki that seems to
share my questions / reservations on ID's over DD's for 'most'
applications?

How much would I want to spend if my existing DD does (guess) 90% of
what any single tool could do (for *me*) and how much work of the type
where an ID might be 'better' do I do and so at what cost.

I'm not suggesting you are trying to pressure or convince me to get an
ID of course g, I'm just thinking out loud why / how / when an ID
could be 'worth it' to me? (Considering I rarely even need an excuse
to buy more tools). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

There are lots of cheap used IDs on eBay at the moment. I bought one a
while back and have been impressed.
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On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 18:14:38 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

If I were only allowed one rotational cordless tool, then I would go for
the 18V combi drill, since its the most versatile and will replace a
mains drill in most situations. I use mine for drilling - even with hole
saws and big augers, mixing plaster / small quantities of mortar etc and
various other jobs. It will also drive screws just fine. Armed with some
Bosch multimaterial bits it will even make a credible job on hard
masonry, when you don't want to get the SDS out.


Ok, so we agree on that then. ;-)

If I were adding a ID at that point,


And for me, that *if* is the $1000 question (and why I posted it etc).
;-)

then I am torn between the 18V and
the much smaller lighter 10.8V, but I would probably for for the 18V ID
as it is fast and powerful - it will hurl screws into joists, and
studwork very quickly and easily, and can also be fairly fine and
controlled if required.


Sure, so it's a 'powerful' tool and hence more (traditionally) suited
to bigger / heavier jobs.

For building work I would not want to be without
it. However keep in mind I do a reasonable amount of what one might
class as building rather than more traditional DIY.


Ok.

The smaller lighter one however is nice for smaller trim type work, and
furniture making - while I could cope without it (and indeed did for
years), its a "nice to have". (and in reality is has a much driving
torque as my big combi).


Makes sense. Same with my Bosch electric screwdriver where if I was
doing enough of the right sort of job (that it suited) then I'd be
bothered to get it and put it on charge (I don't actually know where
it is any more). ;-(

This is the 10.8V set I got (note there is another version about that
looks similar but only has a DD rather than a combi - so read the spec
carefully). This is the bag I would grab for many "fixing" applications.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Makita-DK14...+impact+driver

Ouch, I've paid less for a car. ;-)

snip

The 'hype' here from some re ID's makes me want to give one a go (I
particularly respect your POV because I know you do your research, do
lots of nice work and have a wide range of tools, including (probably)
'good' DD's) but I keep harking back to the diy wiki that seems to
share my questions / reservations on ID's over DD's for 'most'
applications?


Probably worth keeping in mind that much of that wiki article was
written some time back when IDs were way more expensive and there was
much less in the way of choice.


Ah.

Also some of the content was directed at
the frequent discussions going on here at the time suggesting that IDs
were good general replacement for a drill, or an angle drill, or just
confusing them with the mechanic's tool of the same name.


Ok.

Might be time to tweak it a bit.


I think it might. ;-)

How much would I want to spend if my existing DD does (guess) 90% of
what any single tool could do (for *me*) and how much work of the type
where an ID might be 'better' do I do and so at what cost.


Much will come down to how much work you do with it, and also what type
you do. Not to mention how comfortable you are with powered screw
driving in general


Sure.

- some of it takes practice to develop technique to
do it easily.


I think that (intuitively in use or lack thereof) reflects the
suitability of a tool to a job. Like, I didn't really have to learn
how to use my FatMax DD for anything I've used it for so far. Some of
that may be down to me using most of the dedicated tools beforehand
(mains powered single speed drills or electric screwdrivers) and
therefore had an expectation (hope). Luckily the FatMax DD has met
those (so far anyway).

I'm not suggesting you are trying to pressure or convince me to get an
ID of course g, I'm just thinking out loud why / how / when an ID
could be 'worth it' to me? (Considering I rarely even need an excuse
to buy more tools). ;-)


Nope not trying to pressure, more a suggestion that it would be worth
having a play with one and getting a feel for it.


Agreed wholeheartedly.

You may be pleasantly
surprised...


Happy to be, like I said, I don't generally need an excuse ... ;-)

Some years back I did that with the one you see in the wiki - which at
the time cost me about 70 "body only" IIRC (where buying a full kit
would have been more like 300). I figured I could always stick it on
ebay if it did not work out. I have since acquired more of them on the
grounds that I found it more than good enough to warrant it.


Noted.

I think there are three tools where I have had that kind of "wow, that
is so much better" moment... using a quality jigsaw after the DIY spec
ones,


+1

using a SDS drill after a normal "hammer" drill,


I sort of get that but only for a very small subset of what I
typically need to do.

and using an
impact driver after doing lots of powered driving with the combi drill.


Watch this space ... ;-)

(and keep in mind I built a whole loft conversion with that combi and
was not in any way dissatisfied with it - I rate it as an outstandingly
good tool)


Noted.

Thanks for the feedback. I think this is going to be very much a
'proof is in the eating' scenarios.

Cheers, T i m



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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On 20/08/2018 21:28, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 21:07:05 +0100, wrote:

snip


There are lots of cheap used IDs on eBay at the moment.


I don't generally buy second hand tools. 1) because there would be no
guarantee and 2) they could easily be stolen.

I bought one a
while back and have been impressed.


I would need to try before buying with something like this.


ITHM there are lots of *new* cheap IDs on ebay...


--
Cheers,

John.

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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On 21/08/2018 10:37, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 00:54:49 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 20/08/2018 21:28, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 21:07:05 +0100, wrote:

snip


There are lots of cheap used IDs on eBay at the moment.

I don't generally buy second hand tools. 1) because there would be no
guarantee and 2) they could easily be stolen.

I bought one a
while back and have been impressed.

I would need to try before buying with something like this.


ITHM there are lots of *new* cheap IDs on ebay...


Sure, but as you suggest and I agree, I really think it's something I
would need to try before I buy.

eg, How many people here advocating the use of ID's have Tinnitus
where the chances are that even a short exposure to one in use close
up (without hearing protection that I wouldn't need with a DD) may
raise my Tinnitus levels for a few days would suffer the same?


Don't know is the short answer. While they are louder than a DD, its not
a noise I have felt uncomfortable near, or had to reach for ear
defenders. Its less offensive than a hammer drill drilling masonry IME.




--
Cheers,

John.

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Default Cordless impact screwdriver V cordless hammer drill?

On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 12:05:47 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:
snip

eg, How many people here advocating the use of ID's have Tinnitus
where the chances are that even a short exposure to one in use close
up (without hearing protection that I wouldn't need with a DD) may
raise my Tinnitus levels for a few days would suffer the same?


Don't know is the short answer.


Suck it and see (or hear) I think is the only way John.

While they are louder than a DD, its not
a noise I have felt uncomfortable near, or had to reach for ear
defenders.


Unfortunately, unless you have Tinnitus (and I wouldn't wish it on
anyone, even the most rampantly fanatic Brexiteer!) you wouldn't know
what noises can aggravate it.

Like, I have been exposed to some fairly loud noises, thought I was
going to suffer the consequences but didn't, and some pretty low
levels of noise and have?

Its less offensive than a hammer drill drilling masonry IME.


And that is something I would definitely put some good quality ear
defenders on before starting.

And I guess the noise level (or sound) can very depending on what you
are using it on? Like a fence post outdoors or a cupboard, indoors
where the shape could act like a sounding box or reflector.

Cheers, T i m



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On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 10:21:47 +0100, T i m wrote:

The control of speed and torque is far too tricky.


Again, I think that can be very much down to the quality / power /
design of the drill. O=I have driven many screws with my Fat Max to
the point where I have been questioning why anyone would want anything
different? Maybe those here who are advocates of the ID haven't
actually used such a DD?

Give it enough "go" to get a fast drive, when the screw gets tight

the
torque shoots up as the motor is stalled and the bit chews the

screw
head or cams out and bouncesacross the work...


Yup and exactly what I don't get with my drill. I squeeze the trigger
and the drill starts of at about 1 rev per second and will carry on at
that speed till the screw is buried deep in the wood?


Rotational speed independant of the torque required to drive the
screw in?

Rotational speed dependant only or trigger position?

Only enough torque delivered to maintain the rotational speed up to a
seperate limit?

I think mine uses some form of PWM as speed control as it produces a
fixed frequency whine at low speeds.

Maybe not all cordless drill drivers are created equal?


They certainly aren't, as I say my drill/driver is very tricky to
use. It's OK for bashing screws in if your not overly bothered about
the heads getting chewed, it caming out and the bit damaging the work
or over driving the head into the work.

What make/model is your Fat Max?

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On 21/08/2018 14:58, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 20 Aug 2018 10:21:47 +0100, T i m wrote:

The control of speed and torque is far too tricky.


Again, I think that can be very much down to the quality / power /
design of the drill. O=I have driven many screws with my Fat Max to
the point where I have been questioning why anyone would want anything
different? Maybe those here who are advocates of the ID haven't
actually used such a DD?

Give it enough "go" to get a fast drive, when the screw gets tight

the
torque shoots up as the motor is stalled and the bit chews the

screw
head or cams out and bouncesacross the work...


Yup and exactly what I don't get with my drill. I squeeze the trigger
and the drill starts of at about 1 rev per second and will carry on at
that speed till the screw is buried deep in the wood?


Rotational speed independant of the torque required to drive the
screw in?

Rotational speed dependant only or trigger position?

Only enough torque delivered to maintain the rotational speed up to a
seperate limit?

I think mine uses some form of PWM as speed control as it produces a
fixed frequency whine at low speeds.


Speed controllers vary - some will deliver decent torque at low revs,
other less so. The modern brushless tools are probably best in that
respect since they try to deliver constant rotational speed under a
varying load.



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John.

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On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 14:58:30 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

snip

Maybe not all cordless drill drivers are created equal?


They certainly aren't, as I say my drill/driver is very tricky to
use.


And mine is a breeze. ;-)

It's OK for bashing screws in if your not overly bothered about
the heads getting chewed, it caming out and the bit damaging the work
or over driving the head into the work.


I can use mine in that mode if I run it on speed II, set the clutch to
OFF and just pull the trigger right in. Anything else means it's
pretty controllable to half a turn of a screw?

What make/model is your Fat Max?


It's a Stanley that I think is a re-badged DeWalt (or they are part of
the same group now etc [1]). It's also quite heavy to a level that
surprised most who are familiar with more basic power tools when they
first pick it up.

Even when on SII and the clutch off and holding the keyless chuck
firmly, gently squeezing the trigger allows you to determine just how
much skin you want to pull off your hand. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

[1] checks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeWalt

"DeWalt (trademarked as D?WALT) is an American worldwide brand of
power tools and hand tools for the construction, manufacturing and
woodworking industries. DeWalt is a trade name of Black & Decker
(U.S.) Inc., a subsidiary of Stanley Black & Decker."

Before this Stanley DD I previously had a DeWalt and would say it was
nearly as good (but not as powerful). The only real reason I stopped
using it was the batteries died.
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On Tue, 21 Aug 2018 16:41:41 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

Speed controllers vary


Judging by some of the responses here, they must vary quite a bit!
Also, how much they appear to vary could be down to the latent power /
torque of the device in general. eg, if they are 'pretty torquy, then
the speed controller can be more linear.

- some will deliver decent torque at low revs,


If you hold the chuck firmly with you hand and just slowly squeeze the
trigger, I suggest most people would be forced to let go of it (for
fear of taking skin off their hands) and when they do it would still
only be doing a few RPM.

other less so.


Mostly the cheaper offerings from what I've experienced so far. Even
the DD daughter brought from Lidl (along with a circular and jig saw)
works pretty well but isn't a patch on this FatMax.

The modern brushless tools are probably best in that
respect since they try to deliver constant rotational speed under a
varying load.


I've not tried any brushless anything yet. [1]

Cheers, T i m

[1] A couple of mates fancied racing RC Electric cars and went out and
spent quite a bit getting set up from scratch. I dragged out all my
old stuff (NiMH, brushed motor) and we turned up at the local club
(where I was a bit of a point of amusement because of all my old
gear).

Mates had written their cars off within the first couple of heats and
I ended up 3rd in the main final (much to everyone's surprise,
especially me!). ;-)

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