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  #1   Report Post  
Stephen Gilkes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

Hi there

Just about to start insulating my single-skin brick shed with Celotex and
have got a couple of questions:

The Celotex will be fitted to the wall by fixing battens over the Celotex
and then fixed to the wall. What is the best way to attach the battens to
the wall? Should I use screws or masonry nails? If using screws, I need to
put rawl plugs into the brick. What's the best and quickest way to do this?
If I pre-drill all the holes in the brickwork, how can I be sure to line up
the batten with the holes.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Am a total newbie to this kind of
thing.

Stephen


  #2   Report Post  
MrCheerful
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls


"Stephen Gilkes" wrote in message
...
Hi there

Just about to start insulating my single-skin brick shed with Celotex and
have got a couple of questions:

The Celotex will be fitted to the wall by fixing battens over the Celotex
and then fixed to the wall. What is the best way to attach the battens to
the wall? Should I use screws or masonry nails? If using screws, I need to
put rawl plugs into the brick. What's the best and quickest way to do

this?
If I pre-drill all the holes in the brickwork, how can I be sure to line

up
the batten with the holes.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Am a total newbie to this kind of
thing.

Stephen



I would glue it on.

MrCheerful


  #3   Report Post  
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

Should I use screws or masonry nails?

Don't bother with nails. You'll probably end up just ejecting the brick from
the wall, assuming the brick even survives.

If using screws, I need to put rawl plugs into the brick. What's the
best and quickest way to do this?


SDS drill with suitable bit.

If I pre-drill all the holes in the brickwork, how can I be sure to
line up the batten with the holes.


Predrill holes in all the battens first. Then put against the wall in their
final positions. Using a old smaller bit, drill through one of your
predrilled holes (above half way up the batten) into the brick to make a
mark. Remove batten. Drill and plug hole. Attach batten to hole using screw.
Use spirit level to make batten upright. Use old bit again to drill through
each predrilled hole. Remove batten again. Drill and plug each hole.
Reattach batten using screws. If you've got a steady hand or a helper, you
can skip out the steps of attaching by one screw to make the other punch
marks, but you risk misaligning the holes.

Christian.


  #4   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 16:36:04 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"
wrote:

Hi there

Just about to start insulating my single-skin brick shed with Celotex and
have got a couple of questions:

The Celotex will be fitted to the wall by fixing battens over the Celotex
and then fixed to the wall. What is the best way to attach the battens to
the wall? Should I use screws or masonry nails? If using screws, I need to
put rawl plugs into the brick. What's the best and quickest way to do this?
If I pre-drill all the holes in the brickwork, how can I be sure to line up
the batten with the holes.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Am a total newbie to this kind of
thing.

Stephen


I think that a lot depends on what you want to use the shed for and
whether you want to fix things to the battens or to clad it in ply or
something.

If you don't really need to fix anything to it, then you might as well
skip the screws and simply stick the cladding to the wall with
Gripfill. You could then stick a thin ply to the front if you want
to protect it slightly.

If you want something slightly more substantial, then you could do as
you are suggesting. Simply use a long masonry drill and drill through
the Celotex into the wall. You can then remove the sheet and insert
the plugs. Replace the sheet and carefully locate the screws through
the battens and the sheet. The problem with this method is that it
won't support very much if you are trying to do that because the
Celotex will tend to crush if you overtighten the fixings and in any
case mechanically speaking you will have the battens effectively stood
off from the wall on screws by the thickness of the Celotex - it won't
give any support. Therefore it is not going to be a good method if
you are looking to fit heavy shelves.

I insulated my single brick garage using Celotex by first making stud
framing in 75x50mm timber. The rectangular sections produced were
bolted to the floor using Rawlbolts and to the joists using carriage
screws. The rear face of the timber was spaced off from the wall by
about 25mm. The Celotex was cut and friction fitted into the frames
and then the joints taped with foil tape that they supply. Finally,
I clad the framing with 18mm ply. Having the timber framing spaced
off from the wall prevents cold bridging from the wall (although it
does allow some with the floor). An alternative would have been to
bolt the timbers directly to the wall but this would have bridged the
insulation - not necessarily that big a deal in a shed, although you
wouldn't do it in a dwelling. The cladding means that I can fit
light to medium weight things anywere on the walls with no hassle and
for heavier things I have very substantial studs at 600mm intervals.

For the roof I didn't need to fix anything to it, so I used long
drywall screws with large washers to fix the Celotex to the rafters.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #5   Report Post  
MrCheerful
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls


"Stephen Gilkes" wrote in message
...
Hi there

Just about to start insulating my single-skin brick shed with Celotex and
have got a couple of questions:

The Celotex will be fitted to the wall by fixing battens over the Celotex
and then fixed to the wall. What is the best way to attach the battens to
the wall? Should I use screws or masonry nails? If using screws, I need to
put rawl plugs into the brick. What's the best and quickest way to do

this?
If I pre-drill all the holes in the brickwork, how can I be sure to line

up
the batten with the holes.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Am a total newbie to this kind of
thing.

Stephen



If you want to put plaster board over the celotex, then you could first fix
uprights to the wall, fill between with celotex, then plasterboard over the
whole lot. This would give you some solid bits to fix things to. It is
also possible to get plasterboard already fixed to celotex.

MrCheerful




  #6   Report Post  
Steve
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

Stephen Gilkes wrote:
Hi there

Just about to start insulating my single-skin brick shed with Celotex and
have got a couple of questions:

The Celotex will be fitted to the wall by fixing battens over the Celotex
and then fixed to the wall. What is the best way to attach the battens to
the wall? Should I use screws or masonry nails? If using screws, I need to
put rawl plugs into the brick. What's the best and quickest way to do this?
If I pre-drill all the holes in the brickwork, how can I be sure to line up
the batten with the holes.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Am a total newbie to this kind of
thing.

Stephen


There are some nice "knock-in" fastners from Rawlplug et al. Just drill
through the batten, into the wall and then NAIL the batten on. The
"nail" is a screw like thingy which can be tightened further once it is
on the wall. Very quick and also very strong.

Don't forget the sealing tape stuff too.,

Steve
  #7   Report Post  
Sploop
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls


"Steve" wrote in message
.. .
Stephen Gilkes wrote:
Hi there

Just about to start insulating my single-skin brick shed with Celotex

and
have got a couple of questions:

The Celotex will be fitted to the wall by fixing battens over the

Celotex
and then fixed to the wall. What is the best way to attach the battens

to
the wall? Should I use screws or masonry nails? If using screws, I need

to
put rawl plugs into the brick. What's the best and quickest way to do

this?
If I pre-drill all the holes in the brickwork, how can I be sure to line

up
the batten with the holes.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Am a total newbie to this kind of
thing.

Stephen


There are some nice "knock-in" fastners from Rawlplug et al. Just drill
through the batten, into the wall and then NAIL the batten on. The
"nail" is a screw like thingy which can be tightened further once it is
on the wall. Very quick and also very strong.

Don't forget the sealing tape stuff too.,#




Forget the lot use thermoboard, which is plasterboard with 30/40/50 mm
insulation bonded. £17 an 8x4 sheet fix with drywall adhesive.£4.75 a 25kg
bag. Bingo finish in one. Standard requirement on newbuild exterior walls.

Steve



  #8   Report Post  
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

Forget the lot use thermoboard, which is plasterboard with 30/40/50 mm
insulation bonded. £17 an 8x4 sheet fix with drywall adhesive.£4.75 a
25kg bag. Bingo finish in one.


For a shed, though, it might be more appropriate to use plywood instead of
(or in addition to) plasterboard, as it is much easier to fix shelving and
racking to.

Christian.



  #9   Report Post  
Andrew
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..

I insulated my single brick garage using Celotex by first making stud
framing in 75x50mm timber. The rectangular sections produced were
bolted to the floor using Rawlbolts and to the joists using carriage
screws. The rear face of the timber was spaced off from the wall by
about 25mm. The Celotex was cut and friction fitted into the frames
and then the joints taped with foil tape that they supply. Finally,
I clad the framing with 18mm ply. Having the timber framing spaced
off from the wall prevents cold bridging from the wall (although it
does allow some with the floor). An alternative would have been to
bolt the timbers directly to the wall but this would have bridged the
insulation - not necessarily that big a deal in a shed, although you
wouldn't do it in a dwelling. The cladding means that I can fit
light to medium weight things anywere on the walls with no hassle and
for heavier things I have very substantial studs at 600mm intervals.


Andy,

I want to do something similar and had wondered why you used the
framing method (found in the archive). Now I understand.

Do I need ventilation for the airgap behind the celotex?

Is there another airgap between the celotex and the plywood or do you
fit the celotex flush with the outer face of the battens?

The celotex app notes also suggests using it to insulate the floor
with a covering of flooring grade chipboard. Anyone done this?

Andrew
  #10   Report Post  
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

The celotex app notes also suggests using it to insulate the floor
with a covering of flooring grade chipboard. Anyone done this?


You can, but if you have the height available, Jablite is cheaper for this
application.

Christian.





  #11   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

On 17 Feb 2004 01:50:42 -0800, (Andrew)
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote in message . ..

I insulated my single brick garage using Celotex by first making stud
framing in 75x50mm timber. The rectangular sections produced were
bolted to the floor using Rawlbolts and to the joists using carriage
screws. The rear face of the timber was spaced off from the wall by
about 25mm. The Celotex was cut and friction fitted into the frames
and then the joints taped with foil tape that they supply. Finally,
I clad the framing with 18mm ply. Having the timber framing spaced
off from the wall prevents cold bridging from the wall (although it
does allow some with the floor). An alternative would have been to
bolt the timbers directly to the wall but this would have bridged the
insulation - not necessarily that big a deal in a shed, although you
wouldn't do it in a dwelling. The cladding means that I can fit
light to medium weight things anywere on the walls with no hassle and
for heavier things I have very substantial studs at 600mm intervals.


Andy,

I want to do something similar and had wondered why you used the
framing method (found in the archive). Now I understand.

Do I need ventilation for the airgap behind the celotex?


It's probably a good idea. As a general principle, putting wood in a
potentially damp and unventilated space is not a good plan. Because
of the construction of my garage, I was able to incorporate
ventilation quite easily. The overhang of the roof provides quite
generous horizontal soffits under the eaves. The roof uses trussed
frames similar to house construction. I fitted Celotex to the
inner surface of the rafters - I could have fitted some between and
some on top, but it was enough of a PITA to fit the stuff up there
anyway that I didn't mind losing about 50mm of depth up there.
This created a space behind the depth of the rafters to ventilate the
them. I then boarded on top of the joists to form a storage area but
only up to the roof Celotex. The wall framing was arranged so that
there was an air gap at the top meeting the gap behind the roof
Celotex. I then fitted soffit vents into the soffits between each
pair of rafters on both sides of the (apex) roof.
This gives a ventilated space common behind roof and walls.

I did a simple test using smoke matches held against holes cut in the
final wall on a mildly windy day. It was blown in and out, so I
think that the ventilation is effective enough.

An alternative would be to chop an air brick into the wall, I suppose.

For belt and braces, I used pressure treated timber for the framing as
well. A good and cheap source of this is a timber mill that makes
fencing materials, although it can be obtained at a normal merchant.


Is there another airgap between the celotex and the plywood or do you
fit the celotex flush with the outer face of the battens?


No. The Celotex is fitted flush with the front surface of the
framing. I then taped it using the metalised tape, to cover the
joins from sheet to sheet and to the battens. In a few places where
there were small holes and gaps as a result of the garage
construction, I used foam filler.

I then fitted the ply to the framing using drywall screws and painted
it.



The celotex app notes also suggests using it to insulate the floor
with a covering of flooring grade chipboard. Anyone done this?


I debated the idea. The problem for me is that the height from
floor to joists is only about 2400mm and I didn't want to lose any of
that. Also, I will want to move heavy things in and out on occasions
so I don't really want a step at the front.

I had done the heat loss calculations for the building and the floor
was the least of the losses. Now of course it's the most, but not
substantial.





Andrew


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #12   Report Post  
Stephen Gilkes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

At what spacing should I drill the holes? Every 18 inches?



"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Should I use screws or masonry nails?



Predrill holes in all the battens first.



  #13   Report Post  
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

At what spacing should I drill the holes? Every 18 inches?

I use brown plugs with 5mm screws going at least 50mm into the wall,
avoiding mortar lines. Every 18 inches sounds fine. I usually put 5 or 6 in
spread evenly, ensuring they are approximately in the middle of a
brick/block, to avoid damage.

Christian.



  #14   Report Post  
Stephen Gilkes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

Thanks Mate!

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
At what spacing should I drill the holes? Every 18 inches?


I use brown plugs with 5mm screws going at least 50mm into the wall,
avoiding mortar lines. Every 18 inches sounds fine. I usually put 5 or 6

in
spread evenly, ensuring they are approximately in the middle of a
brick/block, to avoid damage.

Christian.





  #15   Report Post  
Stephen Gilkes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

The bricks used to build this shed must be extra tough because I'm blunting
drill bit after drill bit. They look like normal house bricks but the dust
is grey (not the usual pinky colour). I didnt expect them to be so tough!

My mate says I should just drill into the pug joints. Is this OK?

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
At what spacing should I drill the holes? Every 18 inches?


I use brown plugs with 5mm screws going at least 50mm into the wall,
avoiding mortar lines. Every 18 inches sounds fine. I usually put 5 or 6

in
spread evenly, ensuring they are approximately in the middle of a
brick/block, to avoid damage.

Christian.







  #16   Report Post  
MrCheerful
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls


"Stephen Gilkes" wrote in message
...
The bricks used to build this shed must be extra tough because I'm

blunting
drill bit after drill bit. They look like normal house bricks but the dust
is grey (not the usual pinky colour). I didnt expect them to be so tough!

My mate says I should just drill into the pug joints. Is this OK?

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
At what spacing should I drill the holes? Every 18 inches?


I use brown plugs with 5mm screws going at least 50mm into the wall,
avoiding mortar lines. Every 18 inches sounds fine. I usually put 5 or 6

in
spread evenly, ensuring they are approximately in the middle of a
brick/block, to avoid damage.

Christian.

Buy an sds drill and bits.

MrCheerful


  #17   Report Post  
T i m
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:19:37 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Forget the lot use thermoboard, which is plasterboard with 30/40/50 mm
insulation bonded. +AKM-17 an 8x4 sheet fix with drywall adhesive.+AKM-4.75 a
25kg bag. Bingo finish in one.


For a shed, though, it might be more appropriate to use plywood instead of
(or in addition to) plasterboard, as it is much easier to fix shelving and
racking to.

Christian.


I turned a pre-fab 20' x 10' concrete garage into a GP workshop and
wanted to line the inside with something warm, strong and easy to fix
things to. The 'problem' was the inside of the garage was very
'paneled' with a 1 1/2" 'dish' in the panels.

I cut up a load 4 x 2 (sawn) into 6" long blocks and 'Gripfilled' them
to the inside walls at 3 heights (top. middle and bottom) and 2'
spacing. I then lined the whole lot with bubble pack and used ally 'H'
section strips to lock 12m WBP (is it?) ply panels together at the
joints and screwed to the wooden blocks.

The whole lot was painted with some light grey floor paint and (second
hand) Spur uprights (full height) fitted at 2' intervals around all
the walls (picking up on the glued blocks). This means I can put
shelves pretty well anywhere and the ply is strong enough for brackets
or small draw units in between.

The steel trussed, corrugated cement fibre, ridge type roof is a bit
of a low pitch for any real 'loft' storage. I've not done anything to
that yet but I might fabricate some taller trusses and re-roof it at
some time soon? I think I can go up to 3m high without needing
planning permission (the workshop is 8' 6" at the eaves). I was also
considering some of that triple walled polycarbonate sheet to give me
more light or maybe an odd corrugated clear H/D panel if I stick with
that style?

The std 8' square up-and-over door was not much fun (especially in the
winter) so I fabricated a triple traditional door set (out of 50 x 25
x 1.5 mm steel box tube clad in steel sheet) to give a single 1/3 rd
wide 6' 6" high personal door and the other 2/3 rds are a sort of
bi-fold allowing the whole thing to open up if needed.

It all took quite a while to do but makes for a great hidy hole for
'fettling' stuff ;-)

All the best ..

T i m


  #18   Report Post  
Stephen Gilkes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

Whats an SDS drill?

I have a Bosch hammer drill at the moment.


"MrCheerful" wrote in message
...

"Stephen Gilkes" wrote in message
...
The bricks used to build this shed must be extra tough because I'm

blunting
drill bit after drill bit. They look like normal house bricks but the

dust
is grey (not the usual pinky colour). I didnt expect them to be so

tough!

My mate says I should just drill into the pug joints. Is this OK?

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
At what spacing should I drill the holes? Every 18 inches?

I use brown plugs with 5mm screws going at least 50mm into the wall,
avoiding mortar lines. Every 18 inches sounds fine. I usually put 5 or

6
in
spread evenly, ensuring they are approximately in the middle of a
brick/block, to avoid damage.

Christian.

Buy an sds drill and bits.

MrCheerful




  #19   Report Post  
T i m
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 23:55:40 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"
wrote:


Buy an sds drill and bits.

MrCheerful


Whats an SDS drill?

I have a Bosch hammer drill at the moment.



[T] I'm not sure what it stands for but it's a 'system'.

A std 'hammer' drill works by having a searies of 'ramps' on one of
the drive gears causing the bit to move backward and forward slightly
as it goes round. They generally have a standard or hand chucks.

An SDS 'tool' (as they don't just drill) use a different method to
create the percussion and the q/r chuck takes a range of 'bits'
including chisels etc and could be thought of as similar to a tiny
Kango? They can be used as a std rotary drill, drill with hammer or
just the hammer action (bit not rotating) . The bits have flutes on
them where they go into the chuck so they don't slip.

I think there are different std's (I'm new to all this myself) eg you
can get SDS and SDS II etc?

They range in price from +AKM-29 to hundreds for something that will work
all day (if you can lift one all day that is!).

Great for getting ceramic tiles of the wall I'm told?

All the best ..

T i m

  #20   Report Post  
MrCheerful
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls


"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 09:19:37 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Forget the lot use thermoboard, which is plasterboard with 30/40/50 mm
insulation bonded. £17 an 8x4 sheet fix with drywall adhesive.£4.75 a
25kg bag. Bingo finish in one.


For a shed, though, it might be more appropriate to use plywood instead

of
(or in addition to) plasterboard, as it is much easier to fix shelving

and
racking to.

Christian.


I turned a pre-fab 20' x 10' concrete garage into a GP workshop and
wanted to line the inside with something warm, strong and easy to fix
things to. The 'problem' was the inside of the garage was very
'paneled' with a 1 1/2" 'dish' in the panels.

I cut up a load 4 x 2 (sawn) into 6" long blocks and 'Gripfilled' them
to the inside walls at 3 heights (top. middle and bottom) and 2'
spacing. I then lined the whole lot with bubble pack and used ally 'H'
section strips to lock 12m WBP (is it?) ply panels together at the
joints and screwed to the wooden blocks.

The whole lot was painted with some light grey floor paint and (second
hand) Spur uprights (full height) fitted at 2' intervals around all
the walls (picking up on the glued blocks). This means I can put
shelves pretty well anywhere and the ply is strong enough for brackets
or small draw units in between.

The steel trussed, corrugated cement fibre, ridge type roof is a bit
of a low pitch for any real 'loft' storage. I've not done anything to
that yet but I might fabricate some taller trusses and re-roof it at
some time soon? I think I can go up to 3m high without needing
planning permission (the workshop is 8' 6" at the eaves). I was also
considering some of that triple walled polycarbonate sheet to give me
more light or maybe an odd corrugated clear H/D panel if I stick with
that style?

The std 8' square up-and-over door was not much fun (especially in the
winter) so I fabricated a triple traditional door set (out of 50 x 25
x 1.5 mm steel box tube clad in steel sheet) to give a single 1/3 rd
wide 6' 6" high personal door and the other 2/3 rds are a sort of
bi-fold allowing the whole thing to open up if needed.

It all took quite a while to do but makes for a great hidy hole for
'fettling' stuff ;-)

All the best ..

T i m



Sounds nice. Local byelaws may be different but 4 metres is usual for max
height

MrCheerful.




  #21   Report Post  
MrCheerful
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls


"Stephen Gilkes" wrote in message
...
Whats an SDS drill?

I have a Bosch hammer drill at the moment.


"MrCheerful" wrote in message
...

"Stephen Gilkes" wrote in message
...
The bricks used to build this shed must be extra tough because I'm

blunting
drill bit after drill bit. They look like normal house bricks but the

dust
is grey (not the usual pinky colour). I didnt expect them to be so

tough!

My mate says I should just drill into the pug joints. Is this OK?

"Christian McArdle" wrote in

message
. net...
At what spacing should I drill the holes? Every 18 inches?

I use brown plugs with 5mm screws going at least 50mm into the wall,
avoiding mortar lines. Every 18 inches sounds fine. I usually put 5

or
6
in
spread evenly, ensuring they are approximately in the middle of a
brick/block, to avoid damage.

Christian.

Buy an sds drill and bits.

MrCheerful


If you have a chuck that you tighten onto the drill, then you do not have an
sds drill. SDS drills and bits are a godsend to any serious diy or building
work, they have a special chuck that holds the drill bit with two sliding
pieces on the sides, a hammer goes in and out to physically smash the
floating drill bit into the wall. There is never a problem with
retightening drill bits, there is only a few moments of actually drilling,
the drills never get blunt or wear out (in practical terms)

Screwfix have a very nice offer on an erbaur sds drill at the moment:

86109 £79.99
you will need the appropriate bits too.

You will never regret buying an sds drill, I am certain.

MrCheerful


  #22   Report Post  
Stephen Gilkes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

Thanks for all the info.

It seems that the bricks used to build the shed are (according to a friend)
cheap bricks that are absolute nightmare to drill into. They're much more
hard than usual housebricks. Hopefully an SDS drill will do the business.

So I cant just fix into the pug joints?


"MrCheerful" wrote in message
...

"Stephen Gilkes" wrote in message
...
Whats an SDS drill?

I have a Bosch hammer drill at the moment.


"MrCheerful" wrote in message
...

"Stephen Gilkes" wrote in message
...
The bricks used to build this shed must be extra tough because I'm
blunting
drill bit after drill bit. They look like normal house bricks but

the
dust
is grey (not the usual pinky colour). I didnt expect them to be so

tough!

My mate says I should just drill into the pug joints. Is this OK?

"Christian McArdle" wrote in

message
. net...
At what spacing should I drill the holes? Every 18 inches?

I use brown plugs with 5mm screws going at least 50mm into the

wall,
avoiding mortar lines. Every 18 inches sounds fine. I usually put

5
or
6
in
spread evenly, ensuring they are approximately in the middle of a
brick/block, to avoid damage.

Christian.

Buy an sds drill and bits.

MrCheerful


If you have a chuck that you tighten onto the drill, then you do not have

an
sds drill. SDS drills and bits are a godsend to any serious diy or

building
work, they have a special chuck that holds the drill bit with two sliding
pieces on the sides, a hammer goes in and out to physically smash the
floating drill bit into the wall. There is never a problem with
retightening drill bits, there is only a few moments of actually drilling,
the drills never get blunt or wear out (in practical terms)

Screwfix have a very nice offer on an erbaur sds drill at the moment:

86109 £79.99
you will need the appropriate bits too.

You will never regret buying an sds drill, I am certain.

MrCheerful




  #23   Report Post  
PoP
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:21:17 GMT, "MrCheerful"
wrote:

You will never regret buying an sds drill, I am certain.


Unless for his first job he offers it up to a wall made of soft
materials in order to drill a little hole for a rawlplug. Then two
seconds later he's got a new doorway to walk through

PoP

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  #24   Report Post  
Stephen Gilkes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

Would this SDS drill be OK? - Its £93.98 from B&Q

Bosch PBH 240 RE
Rotary Hammer and Chiselling Machine
Power Input: 600W
Chuck size: SDS 13mm (1/2") Keyless
No Load Speed: 0-800rpm
Drilling capacity: in concrete 22mm, in masonry 50mm with a core
Electro pneumatic hammer produces a massive 2.2 Joule impact force
For drilling in concrete & chiselling in masonry
Up to 4600 powerful hammer blows per minute
Bosch Electronic Speed Control: Variable speed pre-selection & smooth
acceleration form 0 to max
Forward & reverse action
Carrying case, SDS chuck, SDS chisel & 1 x 5, 6 & 8mm SDS drill bits




"MrCheerful" wrote in message
...

"Stephen Gilkes" wrote in message
...
Whats an SDS drill?

I have a Bosch hammer drill at the moment.


"MrCheerful" wrote in message
...

"Stephen Gilkes" wrote in message
...
The bricks used to build this shed must be extra tough because I'm
blunting
drill bit after drill bit. They look like normal house bricks but

the
dust
is grey (not the usual pinky colour). I didnt expect them to be so

tough!

My mate says I should just drill into the pug joints. Is this OK?

"Christian McArdle" wrote in

message
. net...
At what spacing should I drill the holes? Every 18 inches?

I use brown plugs with 5mm screws going at least 50mm into the

wall,
avoiding mortar lines. Every 18 inches sounds fine. I usually put

5
or
6
in
spread evenly, ensuring they are approximately in the middle of a
brick/block, to avoid damage.

Christian.

Buy an sds drill and bits.

MrCheerful


If you have a chuck that you tighten onto the drill, then you do not have

an
sds drill. SDS drills and bits are a godsend to any serious diy or

building
work, they have a special chuck that holds the drill bit with two sliding
pieces on the sides, a hammer goes in and out to physically smash the
floating drill bit into the wall. There is never a problem with
retightening drill bits, there is only a few moments of actually drilling,
the drills never get blunt or wear out (in practical terms)

Screwfix have a very nice offer on an erbaur sds drill at the moment:

86109 £79.99
you will need the appropriate bits too.

You will never regret buying an sds drill, I am certain.

MrCheerful




  #25   Report Post  
MrCheerful
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls


"Stephen Gilkes" wrote in message
...
Would this SDS drill be OK? - Its £93.98 from B&Q

Bosch PBH 240 RE
Rotary Hammer and Chiselling Machine
Power Input: 600W
Chuck size: SDS 13mm (1/2") Keyless
No Load Speed: 0-800rpm
Drilling capacity: in concrete 22mm, in masonry 50mm with a core
Electro pneumatic hammer produces a massive 2.2 Joule impact force
For drilling in concrete & chiselling in masonry
Up to 4600 powerful hammer blows per minute
Bosch Electronic Speed Control: Variable speed pre-selection & smooth
acceleration form 0 to max
Forward & reverse action
Carrying case, SDS chuck, SDS chisel & 1 x 5, 6 & 8mm SDS drill bits


That would be fine.




  #26   Report Post  
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

Would this SDS drill be OK? - Its £93.98 from B&Q

Bosch PBH 240 RE


Definitely. However, if you aren't expecting to do much work with it, I have
the (now) 29.99 NuTool. It isn't particularly known for reliability, but
mine still works without any problems at all. It even comes with a load of
cheap bits and chisels and has easily given me enough value to justify the
price even if it explodes tomorrow.

BTW, when drilling rawlplug holes with it, I find it best to drill the first
0.5cm - 1cm without hammer.

Christian.


  #27   Report Post  
Stephen Gilkes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

I am loathe to spend any more money than I have to.

Do I really need to avoid fixing the battens to the mortar?



"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
Would this SDS drill be OK? - Its £93.98 from B&Q

Bosch PBH 240 RE


Definitely. However, if you aren't expecting to do much work with it, I

have
the (now) 29.99 NuTool. It isn't particularly known for reliability, but
mine still works without any problems at all. It even comes with a load of
cheap bits and chisels and has easily given me enough value to justify the
price even if it explodes tomorrow.

BTW, when drilling rawlplug holes with it, I find it best to drill the

first
0.5cm - 1cm without hammer.

Christian.




  #28   Report Post  
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

I am loathe to spend any more money than I have to.

Do I really need to avoid fixing the battens to the mortar?


It's up to you. I've never had much success with fixing to mortar. I would
be cautious in attaching anything heavy to it. Perhaps a friend has an SDS
drill you can borrow?

Christian.


  #29   Report Post  
PoP
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 09:12:46 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"
wrote:

Would this SDS drill be OK? - Its £93.98 from B&Q


One important statistic not shown in that list is the weight of the
SDS drill. Most of the cheap ones are about 5Kg in weight - okay for
short jobs but you'd soon know about it if you had to hold it up all
day long. I've got one of these - it's quite acceptable because my
drilling tends to be either low down, or at a higher level just the
occasional use.

For the average DIYer I would expect the heavier drill to be perfectly
okay. But for professionals it most likely wouldn't be.

I understand the more expensive ones are in the region of 2Kg.

PoP

-----

My published email address probably won't work. If
you need to contact me please submit your comments
via the web form at http://www.anyoldtripe.co.uk

I apologise for the additional effort, however the
level of unsolicited email I receive makes it
impossible to advertise my real email address!
  #30   Report Post  
Stephen Gilkes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

Hi Christian

I just went out and did test on the mortar. Its pretty sandy and crumbly so
I'm going the SDS way.

Stephen

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
I am loathe to spend any more money than I have to.

Do I really need to avoid fixing the battens to the mortar?


It's up to you. I've never had much success with fixing to mortar. I would
be cautious in attaching anything heavy to it. Perhaps a friend has an SDS
drill you can borrow?

Christian.






  #31   Report Post  
T i m
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 10:15:26 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"
wrote:

I am loathe to spend any more money than I have to.

Do I really need to avoid fixing the battens to the mortar?


As suggested I'd go with a cheap SDS and drill where it's suitable
rather than trying to pick up the joints.

Plugging into the mortar will be ok as long as it's good and sound.

You could also use Gripfill (green tube) to 'glue' the battens to the
wall? I think the stuff is brilliant and for me the test for how well
something is likely to stick is how easy it is to clean off yer
fingers / tools! They also do a white version that's a bit more like
'No more nails'. It's not as 'sticky' but is low (no) odour and
surplus can be wiped off with a damp rag. I wouldn't use it for this
job though.

Forget 'no more nails' .. should have been called 'you still need to
use nails' !

Cut the batten to length and cut some spare lengths of batten to reach
across the shed to (gently) wedge the batten against the wall whilst
it's gluing.

Run a bead of Gripfill up the batten and put into place (you have time
for adjustment but it's neater to be pretty close first go). Press the
batten against the wall to spread the Gripfill and then pop in yer
'props'. 20 mins later you can remove the props to use them for the
next batch.

Stealth batten fixing . ;-)

All the best ..

T i m
  #32   Report Post  
T i m
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

On Wed, 18 Feb 2004 00:21:17 GMT, "MrCheerful"
wrote:



The std 8' square up-and-over door was not much fun (especially in the
winter) so I fabricated a triple traditional door set (out of 50 x 25
x 1.5 mm steel box tube clad in steel sheet) to give a single 1/3 rd
wide 6' 6" high personal door and the other 2/3 rds are a sort of
bi-fold allowing the whole thing to open up if needed.

It all took quite a while to do but makes for a great hidy hole for
'fettling' stuff ;-)

All the best ..

T i m



Sounds nice. Local byelaws may be different but 4 metres is usual for max
height

MrCheerful.

[T] Ah, that makes more sense as if my eaves are 8' 6" ( ~ 2.5m)
already without the roof pitch?

I thought I remember something about flat roofs having a lower limit
than pitched?

All the best ..

T i m

  #33   Report Post  
Stephen Gilkes
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

I went ahead and bought the Bosch SDS drill. It was reduced to £49.99 in
B&Q.

Absolutely brilliant. Goes through the brick really easily.

Thank you

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
I am loathe to spend any more money than I have to.

Do I really need to avoid fixing the battens to the mortar?


It's up to you. I've never had much success with fixing to mortar. I would
be cautious in attaching anything heavy to it. Perhaps a friend has an SDS
drill you can borrow?

Christian.




  #34   Report Post  
PoP
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:53:04 -0000, "Stephen Gilkes"
wrote:

I went ahead and bought the Bosch SDS drill. It was reduced to £49.99 in
B&Q.

Absolutely brilliant. Goes through the brick really easily.


Welcome to the world of very happy SDS drill owners!

PoP

-----

My published email address probably won't work. If
you need to contact me please submit your comments
via the web form at http://www.anyoldtripe.co.uk

I apologise for the additional effort, however the
level of unsolicited email I receive makes it
impossible to advertise my real email address!
  #35   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 17 Feb 2004 01:50:42 -0800, (Andrew)
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote in message

. ..

I insulated my single brick garage using Celotex by first making stud
framing in 75x50mm timber. The rectangular sections produced were
bolted to the floor using Rawlbolts and to the joists using carriage
screws. The rear face of the timber was spaced off from the wall by
about 25mm. The Celotex was cut and friction fitted into the frames
and then the joints taped with foil tape that they supply. Finally,
I clad the framing with 18mm ply. Having the timber framing spaced
off from the wall prevents cold bridging from the wall (although it
does allow some with the floor). An alternative would have been to
bolt the timbers directly to the wall but this would have bridged the
insulation - not necessarily that big a deal in a shed, although you
wouldn't do it in a dwelling. The cladding means that I can fit
light to medium weight things anywere on the walls with no hassle and
for heavier things I have very substantial studs at 600mm intervals.


Andy,

I want to do something similar and had wondered why you used the
framing method (found in the archive). Now I understand.

Do I need ventilation for the airgap behind the celotex?


It's probably a good idea. As a general principle, putting wood in a
potentially damp and unventilated space is not a good plan. Because
of the construction of my garage, I was able to incorporate
ventilation quite easily. The overhang of the roof provides quite
generous horizontal soffits under the eaves. The roof uses trussed
frames similar to house construction. I fitted Celotex to the
inner surface of the rafters - I could have fitted some between and
some on top, but it was enough of a PITA to fit the stuff up there
anyway that I didn't mind losing about 50mm of depth up there.
This created a space behind the depth of the rafters to ventilate the
them. I then boarded on top of the joists to form a storage area but
only up to the roof Celotex. The wall framing was arranged so that
there was an air gap at the top meeting the gap behind the roof
Celotex. I then fitted soffit vents into the soffits between each
pair of rafters on both sides of the (apex) roof.
This gives a ventilated space common behind roof and walls.

I did a simple test using smoke matches held against holes cut in the
final wall on a mildly windy day. It was blown in and out, so I
think that the ventilation is effective enough.

An alternative would be to chop an air brick into the wall, I suppose.

For belt and braces, I used pressure treated timber for the framing as
well. A good and cheap source of this is a timber mill that makes
fencing materials, although it can be obtained at a normal merchant.


Is there another airgap between the celotex and the plywood or do you
fit the celotex flush with the outer face of the battens?


No. The Celotex is fitted flush with the front surface of the
framing. I then taped it using the metalised tape, to cover the
joins from sheet to sheet and to the battens. In a few places where
there were small holes and gaps as a result of the garage
construction, I used foam filler.

I then fitted the ply to the framing using drywall screws and painted
it.

The celotex app notes also suggests using it to insulate the floor
with a covering of flooring grade chipboard. Anyone done this?


I debated the idea. The problem for me is that the height from
floor to joists is only about 2400mm and I didn't want to lose any of
that. Also, I will want to move heavy things in and out on occasions
so I don't really want a step at the front.

I had done the heat loss calculations for the building and the floor
was the least of the losses. Now of course it's the most, but not
substantial.


Dig a trench around the garage and insert foam insulation against the garage
walls and then back fill. This will prevent the cold earth acting as a
large heat sink extracting heat from the garage walls and floor. This is
also a very good idea with the main house too.




  #36   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On 17 Feb 2004 01:50:42 -0800, (Andrew)
wrote:

Andy Hall wrote in message

. ..

I insulated my single brick garage using Celotex by first making stud
framing in 75x50mm timber. The rectangular sections produced were
bolted to the floor using Rawlbolts and to the joists using carriage
screws. The rear face of the timber was spaced off from the wall by
about 25mm. The Celotex was cut and friction fitted into the frames
and then the joints taped with foil tape that they supply. Finally,
I clad the framing with 18mm ply. Having the timber framing spaced
off from the wall prevents cold bridging from the wall (although it
does allow some with the floor).


Rigid foam insulation could have been between the floor and the wood
framing. Rawlbolts can go through the foam and into the wood. A nut and
washer on a rawlbolt thread either side of the framing sole plate will
support the timber.

An alternative would have been to
bolt the timbers directly to the wall but this would have bridged the
insulation - not necessarily that big a deal in a shed, although you
wouldn't do it in a dwelling. The cladding means that I can fit
light to medium weight things anywere on the walls with no hassle and
for heavier things I have very substantial studs at 600mm intervals.


I want to do something similar and had wondered why you used the
framing method (found in the archive). Now I understand.

Do I need ventilation for the airgap behind the celotex?


It's probably a good idea. As a general principle, putting wood in a
potentially damp and unventilated space is not a good plan. Because
of the construction of my garage, I was able to incorporate
ventilation quite easily. The overhang of the roof provides quite
generous horizontal soffits under the eaves. The roof uses trussed
frames similar to house construction. I fitted Celotex to the
inner surface of the rafters - I could have fitted some between and
some on top, but it was enough of a PITA to fit the stuff up there
anyway that I didn't mind losing about 50mm of depth up there.
This created a space behind the depth of the rafters to ventilate the
them. I then boarded on top of the joists to form a storage area but
only up to the roof Celotex. The wall framing was arranged so that
there was an air gap at the top meeting the gap behind the roof
Celotex. I then fitted soffit vents into the soffits between each
pair of rafters on both sides of the (apex) roof.
This gives a ventilated space common behind roof and walls.

I did a simple test using smoke matches held against holes cut in the
final wall on a mildly windy day. It was blown in and out, so I
think that the ventilation is effective enough.

An alternative would be to chop an air brick into the wall, I suppose.

For belt and braces, I used pressure treated timber for the framing as
well. A good and cheap source of this is a timber mill that makes
fencing materials, although it can be obtained at a normal merchant.


Is there another airgap between the celotex and the plywood or do you
fit the celotex flush with the outer face of the battens?


No. The Celotex is fitted flush with the front surface of the
framing. I then taped it using the metalised tape, to cover the
joins from sheet to sheet and to the battens. In a few places where
there were small holes and gaps as a result of the garage
construction, I used foam filler.

I then fitted the ply to the framing using drywall screws and painted
it.



The celotex app notes also suggests using it to insulate the floor
with a covering of flooring grade chipboard. Anyone done this?


I debated the idea. The problem for me is that the height from
floor to joists is only about 2400mm and I didn't want to lose any of
that. Also, I will want to move heavy things in and out on occasions
so I don't really want a step at the front.

I had done the heat loss calculations for the building and the floor
was the least of the losses. Now of course it's the most, but not
substantial.





Andrew


.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl



  #38   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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Default Fixing Celotex to walls

On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:07:18 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Dig a trench around the garage and insert foam insulation against the garage
walls and then back fill.


That would take a hell of a lot of those cans though, wouldn't it?

This will prevent the cold earth acting as a
large heat sink extracting heat from the garage walls and floor.


The heat would still travel downwards though. Plus I'd have to dig
up the drive, and that would not be cost effective.


This is
also a very good idea with the main house too.


Exposing the foundations and putting foam round them..... Hmm.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #39   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Fixing Celotex to walls


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 21:07:18 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Dig a trench around the garage and insert foam insulation against the

garage
walls and then back fill.


That would take a hell of a lot of those cans though, wouldn't it?

This will prevent the cold earth acting as a
large heat sink extracting heat from the garage walls and floor.


The heat would still travel downwards though.


In winter the frost line is about 2 for deep. The foundation walls will be
deeper than that. The earth directly beneath the garage will be warmer than
earth at the surface.

This is
also a very good idea with the main house too.


Exposing the foundations and putting foam round them..... Hmm.


Common in the USA.

In Sweden and the USA what is becoming common, is to have an "umbrella" of
foam insulation around the house, starting just below the surface at the
walls and slanting away from the house up to 30 foot away. Rain runs off
this and away from the house protecting the foundations, and the earth under
the umbrella will be cool in summer and warm in winter. If you have a
basement the benefits are even greater. All you need is to rent a Bobcat.



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