Wood expansion
 

I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the garage and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am a little worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put pressure on the brickwork.. Is there any place I might find the information?

I also need to attach a 100mm X 100mm gate post to the brickwork, I intend to use some shield fittings with projecting bolts, the drill size being 20mm diam. With the bricks having frogs which in the past I have found not fully filled with mortar, I was wondering if I would be better aiming my holes in the mortar lines rather than the centre of the bricks. Any advise welcome.

Richard

Wood expansion
 

On Monday, 7 May 2018 20:31:22 UTC+1, Tricky Dicky wrote:

I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the garage and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am a little worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put pressure on the brickwork. Is there any place I might find the information?

what information? It expands sideways but not lengthways.


NT

Wood expansion
 

On 07/05/18 20:31, Tricky Dicky wrote:
I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the garage and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am a little worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put pressure on the brickwork. Is there any place I might find the information?


general wet to dry expansion is around 1% along the grain, 3%
tangentially roundn the trunk and 5% radially

But if constrained it should be OK.


--
€œA leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
€œWe did this ourselves.€�

ۥ Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

Wood expansion
 

On 07/05/18 20:56, wrote:
On Monday, 7 May 2018 20:31:22 UTC+1, Tricky Dicky wrote:

I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the garage and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am a little worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put pressure on the brickwork. Is there any place I might find the information?

what information? It expands sideways but not lengthways.


NT

Wrong, as usual.


--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

Wood expansion
 

On 07/05/2018 20:56, wrote:
On Monday, 7 May 2018 20:31:22 UTC+1, Tricky Dicky wrote:

I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the
garage and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am
a little worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put
pressure on the brickwork. Is there any place I might find the
information?

what information? It expands sideways but not lengthways.

Interesting assertion. I was specifically told to avoid oak as it would
shrink lengthways and pull out any plugged screws and to use larch (I
think).

Wood expansion
 

On 07/05/18 21:10, Fredxx wrote:
On 07/05/2018 20:56, wrote:
On Monday, 7 May 2018 20:31:22 UTC+1, Tricky DickyÂ* wrote:

I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the
garage and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am
a little worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put
pressure on the brickwork. Is there any place I might find the
information?

what information? It expands sideways but not lengthways.

Interesting assertion. I was specifically told to avoid oak as it would
shrink lengthways and pull out any plugged screws and to use larch (I
think).



All wood moves in all directions, but not the same in every direction


--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

Wood expansion
 

On 07/05/2018 20:31, Tricky Dicky wrote:
I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the
garage and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am a
little worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put
pressure on the brickwork. Is there any place I might find the
information?

I have no idea. I suspect there is enough pressure from above to stop
expansion. Timber generally dries out unless you are exposing the beam
to the elements. Which is not a good idea.

I also need to attach a 100mm X 100mm gate post to the brickwork, I
intend to use some shield fittings with projecting bolts, the drill
size being 20mm diam. With the bricks having frogs which in the past
I have found not fully filled with mortar, I was wondering if I would
be better aiming my holes in the mortar lines rather than the centre
of the bricks. Any advise welcome.

How tall is the brickwork? What size is the pier on the end of the wall.

What's wrong in placing the post in concrete as well? I'd be fearful of
bolts pulling out the bricks. Placing bolts/screws on the mortar line
will just separate the bricks depending on how many courses are above.

Wood expansion
 

On 07/05/2018 20:31, Tricky Dicky wrote:


I also need to attach a 100mm X 100mm gate post to the brickwork, I intend to use some shield fittings with projecting bolts, the drill size being 20mm diam. With the bricks having frogs which in the past I have found not fully filled with mortar, I was wondering if I would be better aiming my holes in the mortar lines rather than the centre of the bricks. Any advise welcome.

Richard

Have you considered polyester resin with studs set in it? It may well
fill any holes on the frogs.

Malcolm

---
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http://www.avg.com

Wood expansion
 

On 07/05/2018 20:31, Tricky Dicky wrote:
I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the
garage and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am a
little worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put
pressure on the brickwork. Is there any place I might find the
information?

Expansion is minimal along the grain. However its going to be hard to
make any sensible estimate unless you know the water content when it was
installed.

Also kiln dried lumber tends to exhibit less seasonal change than air
dried wood.

What is currently supporting it?

I also need to attach a 100mm X 100mm gate post to the brickwork, I
intend to use some shield fittings with projecting bolts, the drill
size being 20mm diam. With the bricks having frogs which in the past
I have found not fully filled with mortar, I was wondering if I would
be better aiming my holes in the mortar lines rather than the centre
of the bricks. Any advise welcome.

Even with the frogs you will normally get a better fixing on the brick
than the mortar with a sleeve anchor IME.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Wood expansion
 

general wet to dry expansion is around 1% along the grain, 3%
tangentially roundn the trunk and 5% radially

But if constrained it should be OK.

This is what I am concerned about, at 1.4m 1% means a possible movement of 14 mm with one end pressing against the house wall and the other end pressing against the garage wall. Do I allow for this movement or will the walls constrain it perhaps causing the beam to flex slightly?

Richard


--

Wood expansion
 

Expansion is minimal along the grain. However its going to be hard to
make any sensible estimate unless you know the water content when it was
installed.

Also kiln dried lumber tends to exhibit less seasonal change than air
dried wood.

What is currently supporting it?

The beam is a section of pressure treated decking joist which along with all the rest of their timber products was stored in open sheds at the supplier. It is supported on two gate posts one affixed to the garage the other about to be attached to the house wall held in place in rebates by coach bolts.

Richard

Wood expansion
 

On 07/05/18 23:17, Tricky Dicky wrote:

general wet to dry expansion is around 1% along the grain, 3%
tangentially roundn the trunk and 5% radially

But if constrained it should be OK.

This is what I am concerned about, at 1.4m 1% means a possible movement of 14 mm with one end pressing against the house wall and the other end pressing against the garage wall. Do I allow for this movement or will the walls constrain it perhaps causing the beam to flex slightly?

Richard


1% is absolute worst case from sopping wet to indoors dry in winter with
full CH. In practice I doubt you will see even 5mm in that scenario.


It certainly wont push the house over, just bow the wood slightly.



--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

Wood expansion
 

On 07/05/2018 23:28, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Expansion is minimal along the grain. However its going to be hard to
make any sensible estimate unless you know the water content when it was
installed.

Also kiln dried lumber tends to exhibit less seasonal change than air
dried wood.

What is currently supporting it?

The beam is a section of pressure treated decking joist which along with all the rest of their timber products was stored in open sheds at the supplier. It is supported on two gate posts one affixed to the garage the other about to be attached to the house wall held in place in rebates by coach bolts.

Richard

Can you leave an expansion gap at the ends?

Mike

Wood expansion
 

Yes you don't see many trees getting taller because they are wet, ie when
the sap is down and rising do you or the bark would crack.
It can twist though as my gate post shows only too well. Bah Humbug.

Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
wrote in message
...
On Monday, 7 May 2018 20:31:22 UTC+1, Tricky Dicky wrote:

I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the garage
and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am a little
worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put pressure on the
brickwork. Is there any place I might find the information?

what information? It expands sideways but not lengthways.


NT

Wood expansion
 

Thanks TNP that is reassuring, the timber feels quite moist now mainly due to the way it is stored at the suppliers and despite lying in my garage for a week.

Muddy the answer is yes. That is why I am asking the question now whilst I can still do something about it.

Richard

Wood expansion
 

Brian Gaff wrote

Yes you don't see many trees getting taller because they are wet,

Bit hard to see 1%

ie when the sap is down and rising do you

No sap is down with my trees.

or the bark would crack.

Nope.

It can twist though as my gate post shows only too well. Bah Humbug.

Down, boy.

wrote in message
...
On Monday, 7 May 2018 20:31:22 UTC+1, Tricky Dicky wrote:

I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the
garage and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am a
little worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put pressure on
the brickwork. Is there any place I might find the information?

what information? It expands sideways but not lengthways.


NT

Wood expansion
 

On 07/05/2018 23:28, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Expansion is minimal along the grain. However its going to be hard
to make any sensible estimate unless you know the water content
when it was installed.

Also kiln dried lumber tends to exhibit less seasonal change than
air dried wood.

What is currently supporting it?

The beam is a section of pressure treated decking joist which along
with all the rest of their timber products was stored in open sheds
at the supplier. It is supported on two gate posts one affixed to the
garage the other about to be attached to the house wall held in place
in rebates by coach bolts.

In the circumstances it seems unlikely it will expand much. Personally I
would just trim a couple of mm of the length to create a bit of
expansion room, and allow the ends to dry out should they get wet.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Wood expansion
 

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 07/05/2018 23:28, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Expansion is minimal along the grain. However its going to be hard
to make any sensible estimate unless you know the water content
when it was installed.

Also kiln dried lumber tends to exhibit less seasonal change than
air dried wood.

What is currently supporting it?

The beam is a section of pressure treated decking joist which along
with all the rest of their timber products was stored in open sheds
at the supplier. It is supported on two gate posts one affixed to the
garage the other about to be attached to the house wall held in place
in rebates by coach bolts.

In the circumstances it seems unlikely it will expand much. Personally
I would just trim a couple of mm of the length to create a bit of
expansion room, and allow the ends to dry out should they get wet.
My local experience of Builders Merchants storage is that treated timber
is stored unprotected from weather/Sun etc:-(


--
Tim Lamb

Wood expansion
 

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , John Rumm
writes
On 07/05/2018 23:28, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Expansion is minimal along the grain. However its going to be hard
to make any sensible estimate unless you know the water content
when it was installed.

Also kiln dried lumber tends to exhibit less seasonal change than
air dried wood.

What is currently supporting it?

The beam is a section of pressure treated decking joist which along
with all the rest of their timber products was stored in open sheds
at the supplier. It is supported on two gate posts one affixed to the
garage the other about to be attached to the house wall held in place
in rebates by coach bolts.

In the circumstances it seems unlikely it will expand much. Personally I
would just trim a couple of mm of the length to create a bit of expansion
room, and allow the ends to dry out should they get wet.

My local experience of Builders Merchants storage is that treated timber
is stored unprotected from weather/Sun etc:-(

Tisnt what happens here, its all stored under cover.

Wood expansion
 

On 09/05/2018 10:56, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , John
Rumm writes
On 07/05/2018 23:28, Tricky Dicky wrote:
Expansion is minimal along the grain. However its going to be hard
to make any sensible estimate unless you know the water content
when it was installed.

Also kiln dried lumber tends to exhibit less seasonal change than
air dried wood.

What is currently supporting it?

The beam is a section of pressure treated decking joist which along
with all the rest of their timber products was stored in open sheds
at the supplier. It is supported on two gate posts one affixed to the
garage the other about to be attached to the house wall held in place
in rebates by coach bolts.

In the circumstances it seems unlikely it will expand much. Personally
I would just trim a couple of mm of the length to create a bit of
expansion room, and allow the ends to dry out should they get wet.
My local experience of Builders Merchants storage is that treated timber
is stored unprotected from weather/Sun etc:-(

Indeed, so if its staying outside, conditions will likely continue to be
similar.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Wood expansion
 

On Saturday, 12 May 2018 15:51:54 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/05/2018 10:56, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , John
Rumm writes
On 07/05/2018 23:28, Tricky Dicky wrote:

Expansion is minimal along the grain. However its going to be hard
to make any sensible estimate unless you know the water content
when it was installed.

Also kiln dried lumber tends to exhibit less seasonal change than
air dried wood.

What is currently supporting it?

The beam is a section of pressure treated decking joist which along
with all the rest of their timber products was stored in open sheds
at the supplier. It is supported on two gate posts one affixed to the
garage the other about to be attached to the house wall held in place
in rebates by coach bolts.

In the circumstances it seems unlikely it will expand much. Personally
I would just trim a couple of mm of the length to create a bit of
expansion room, and allow the ends to dry out should they get wet.
My local experience of Builders Merchants storage is that treated timber
is stored unprotected from weather/Sun etc:-(

Indeed, so if its staying outside, conditions will likely continue to be
similar.

resulting in noticeable sideways seasonal expansion but no noticeable lengthwise expansion, as said a while back.


NT

Wood expansion
 

On 07/05/18 21:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/05/18 20:31, Tricky Dicky wrote:
I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the
garage and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am a
little worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put pressure
on the brickwork. Is there any place I might find the information?


general wet to dry expansion is around 1% along the grain, 3%
tangentially roundn the trunk and 5% radially

But if constrained it should be OK.


You have got that a bit wrong.
TW

Wood expansion
 

On 12/05/18 17:36, TimW wrote:
On 07/05/18 21:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/05/18 20:31, Tricky Dicky wrote:
I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the
garage and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am a
little worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put
pressure on the brickwork. Is there any place I might find the
information?


general wet to dry expansion is around 1% along the grain, 3%
tangentially roundn the trunk and 5% radially

But if constrained it should be OK.


You have got that a bit wrong.
TW
You are right. The tangential and radial rates should be swapped.



--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

Wood expansion
 

On 12/05/18 18:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/05/18 17:36, TimW wrote:
On 07/05/18 21:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/05/18 20:31, Tricky Dicky wrote:
I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the
garage and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am
a little worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put
pressure on the brickwork. Is there any place I might find the
information?


general wet to dry expansion is around 1% along the grain, 3%
tangentially roundn the trunk and 5% radially

But if constrained it should be OK.


You have got that a bit wrong.
TW
You are right. The tangential and radial rates should be swapped.

Exactly. And no bit of wood expands/shrinks 1% along the grain, ever.
TW

Wood expansion
 

On 12/05/18 19:02, TimW wrote:
On 12/05/18 18:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/05/18 17:36, TimW wrote:
On 07/05/18 21:08, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/05/18 20:31, Tricky Dicky wrote:
I have just installed a 1.4m X 150mm X 50mm spruce beam between the
garage and house. At present it is a good interference fit but I am
a little worried when it gets saturated it might expand and put
pressure on the brickwork. Is there any place I might find the
information?


general wet to dry expansion is around 1% along the grain, 3%
tangentially roundn the trunk and 5% radially

But if constrained it should be OK.


You have got that a bit wrong.
TW
You are right. The tangential and radial rates should be swapped.

Exactly. And no bit of wood expands/shrinks 1% along the grain, ever.
TW

When I get back into my house, I will take a photograph that shows it

Green wood to 'house dried' over 12 years shows well over 1%


--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.