On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:23:49 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 17/04/2018 20:27, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

Your statement does not agree with the accepted use of the term "live"
in the UK wiring regs.

(that's aside from being nonsense at pretty much any level).

Why?

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

The wiring regs do not necessarily apply. It might be part of an
aircraft infrastructure for instance, in which case the wiring regs
have no relevance anyway. Yet until "measured" the cable will still
not be dead, or alive of course.

Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


AB

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:38:10 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 23/04/18 17:23, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/04/2018 20:27, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
**** Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

Your statement does not agree with the accepted use of the term "live"
in the UK wiring regs.

(that's aside from being nonsense at pretty much any level).



Well its the nym shifting Pork Sword innit?

What do you expect?

From the organ grinders echo?

:-)

AB

On 23/04/2018 18:47, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:23:49 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 17/04/2018 20:27, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

Your statement does not agree with the accepted use of the term "live"
in the UK wiring regs.

(that's aside from being nonsense at pretty much any level).

Why?

Because if said cable is connected directly to 240V at an energised
consumer unit for example, then it *is* a live wire regardless of
whether current is being drawn.

If you have an unknown wire, then you treat it as live until you can
prove its dead.

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

Are you suggesting that the circuit will in some way become self aware
and alter its wiring in response to it being labelled?

If its unknown, then you treat it as live until tested.

Unless you can prove otherwise :-)

You and parrot boy should get a room.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 22:16:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 23/04/2018 18:47, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:23:49 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 17/04/2018 20:27, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

Your statement does not agree with the accepted use of the term "live"
in the UK wiring regs.

(that's aside from being nonsense at pretty much any level).

Why?

Because if said cable is connected directly to 240V at an energised
consumer unit for example, then it *is* a live wire regardless of
whether current is being drawn.

If the wire is connected to 240V, then it is a live wire that's bloody
obvious, congratulations you have managed to comprehend the so totally
blleding obvious that I bet you can even put plugs on :-)

If you have an unknown wire, then you treat it as live until you can
prove its dead.

Depends what you mean by unknown, what parameter, Voltage, current,
colour, material?


You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

Are you suggesting that the circuit will in some way become self aware
and alter its wiring in response to it being labelled?

Of course not, that's stupid. It will remain neither dead nor alive
until an observation of the charge is made.

If its unknown, then you treat it as live until tested.

No need to, if it's unknown it's neither dead nor alive. Best not use
a wet finger as the measuring device though, it isn't a pleasant way
to detect 240V


Unless you can prove otherwise :-)

You and parrot boy should get a room.

It was a pussy cat actually and he [or she] has a safe [or "coffin"].

AB

On Monday, 23 April 2018 23:47:58 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 22:16:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

Are you suggesting that the circuit will in some way become self aware
and alter its wiring in response to it being labelled?

Of course not, that's stupid. It will remain neither dead nor alive
until an observation of the charge is made.

and you remain neither sane nor insane until you can prove your sanity. Which appears to not be possible.

On 24/04/18 08:09, wrote:
On Monday, 23 April 2018 23:47:58 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 22:16:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

Are you suggesting that the circuit will in some way become self aware
and alter its wiring in response to it being labelled?

Of course not, that's stupid. It will remain neither dead nor alive
until an observation of the charge is made.

and you remain neither sane nor insane until you can prove your sanity. Which appears to not be possible.

Porr old Pork Sword Blinking Soppy - he doesnt really understand
Schrödinger , but he has HEARD of him.


--
Of what good are dead warriors? €¦ Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory €¦ The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 08:09, wrote:
On Monday, 23 April 2018 23:47:58 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 22:16:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

Are you suggesting that the circuit will in some way become self aware
and alter its wiring in response to it being labelled?

Of course not, that's stupid. It will remain neither dead nor alive
until an observation of the charge is made.

and you remain neither sane nor insane until you can prove your sanity.
Which appears to not be possible.

Porr old Pork Sword Blinking Soppy - he doesnt really understand
Schrödinger , but he has HEARD of him.

He appears to be conflating quantum indeterminancy with more general
philosophical questions of the existence of the unobserved. Neither
provide a useful or safe (or even theoretically valid) guide for the
practical electrician.



--

Roger Hayter

On Monday, 23 April 2018 19:47:56 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:23:49 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 17/04/2018 20:27, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

Your statement does not agree with the accepted use of the term "live"
in the UK wiring regs.

(that's aside from being nonsense at pretty much any level).

Why?

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Strange colour for copper to come in or are yuo refering to the insulation covering the conductors ?


Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

It is what it is, like a tree in a forest it still exists even if you aren't there to see it.


The wiring regs do not necessarily apply. It might be part of an
aircraft infrastructure for instance,

It could just be on the end of the reel used as a cat toy.

in which case the wiring regs
have no relevance anyway.

Wiring regs only aply if the cable is wired up, there are no wiring regs for cable sitting on a shelf.

Yet until "measured" the cable will still
not be dead, or alive of course.

Most have set up and understanding of what is meant by dead or alive some think it's Pete Burns which can be a result of hanging on to live cable if your name is pete.

Ypou can find out if a cable is dead or alive by inserting it into you urethra, and this advice goes nicely with the subject of this thread :-D




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

On 24/04/18 10:16, Roger Hayter wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 08:09, wrote:
On Monday, 23 April 2018 23:47:58 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 22:16:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

Are you suggesting that the circuit will in some way become self aware
and alter its wiring in response to it being labelled?

Of course not, that's stupid. It will remain neither dead nor alive
until an observation of the charge is made.

and you remain neither sane nor insane until you can prove your sanity.
Which appears to not be possible.

Porr old Pork Sword Blinking Soppy - he doesnt really understand
Schrödinger , but he has HEARD of him.

He appears to be conflating quantum indeterminancy with more general
philosophical questions of the existence of the unobserved. Neither
provide a useful or safe (or even theoretically valid) guide for the
practical electrician.


Precisely. By the time the electricain HAS touched it, its existence is
verified.

And unless teh electri8ci9anm has as little sense as PorkSword he willo
have observed it first, thereby rendering it live, or not, depending on
it's connectivity and its label.





--
"When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics."

Josef Stalin

On 23/04/2018 22:47, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 22:16:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 23/04/2018 18:47, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:23:49 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 17/04/2018 20:27, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

Your statement does not agree with the accepted use of the term "live"
in the UK wiring regs.

(that's aside from being nonsense at pretty much any level).

Why?

Because if said cable is connected directly to 240V at an energised
consumer unit for example, then it *is* a live wire regardless of
whether current is being drawn.

If the wire is connected to 240V, then it is a live wire that's bloody
obvious

Not to you apparently, a moment ago you said: "No, With no load it is
neither alive nor dead".

So you admit that was ******** then?

If you have an unknown wire, then you treat it as live until you can
prove its dead.

Depends what you mean by unknown, what parameter, Voltage, current,
colour, material?

More blather.

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

Are you suggesting that the circuit will in some way become self aware
and alter its wiring in response to it being labelled?

Of course not, that's stupid. It will remain neither dead nor alive
until an observation of the charge is made.

Oh do behave.

If its unknown, then you treat it as live until tested.

No need to, if it's unknown it's neither dead nor alive. Best not use
a wet finger as the measuring device though, it isn't a pleasant way
to detect 240V

I hear some powerfully dumb stuff here at times, but you are pushing the
envelope!



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 23 April 2018 19:47:56 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:23:49 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 17/04/2018 20:27, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

Your statement does not agree with the accepted use of the term "live"
in the UK wiring regs.

(that's aside from being nonsense at pretty much any level).

Why?

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Strange colour for copper to come in or are yuo refering to the insulation covering the conductors ?


Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

It is what it is, like a tree in a forest it still exists even if you aren't there to see it.


The wiring regs do not necessarily apply. It might be part of an
aircraft infrastructure for instance,

It could just be on the end of the reel used as a cat toy.

in which case the wiring regs
have no relevance anyway.

Wiring regs only aply if the cable is wired up, there are no wiring regs for cable sitting on a shelf.

Yet until "measured" the cable will still
not be dead, or alive of course.

Most have set up and understanding of what is meant by dead or alive some think it's Pete Burns which can be a result of hanging on to live cable if your name is pete.

Ypou can find out if a cable is dead or alive by inserting it into you urethra, and this advice goes nicely with the subject of this thread :-D

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

AB

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:16:30 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 08:09, wrote:
On Monday, 23 April 2018 23:47:58 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 22:16:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

Are you suggesting that the circuit will in some way become self aware
and alter its wiring in response to it being labelled?

Of course not, that's stupid. It will remain neither dead nor alive
until an observation of the charge is made.

and you remain neither sane nor insane until you can prove your sanity.
Which appears to not be possible.

Porr old Pork Sword Blinking Soppy - he doesnt really understand
Schrödinger , but he has HEARD of him.

He appears to be conflating quantum indeterminancy with more general
philosophical questions of the existence of the unobserved. Neither
provide a useful or safe (or even theoretically valid) guide for the
practical electrician.

Why not?

It slots in with the job perfectly, until an observation is made the
cable is neither alive nor dead, what could be a better approach? Grab
the thing and use your body to determine that it's at 240V, or buy a
brand spanking new flatscreen and find that the entire properties
energy input is via gas.


Personally I would make the observation with a DMM. The 10Meg input
resistance would be more than enough to take the cable into a
definable voltage range.

AB

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:




Personally I would make the observation with a DMM. The 10Meg input
resistance would be more than enough to take the cable into a
definable voltage range.

AB

It already is!! The PD is there, irregardless of you connecting
anything. Inductive reasoning from knowing what happens at the other
end and making the reasonable assumption that the cable contains
continous length(s) of conductive copper is perfectly sufficient for
*truth* with a high degree of probability. No test is necessary! No
current flow is necessary.


--

Roger Hayter

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 20:33:41 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:




Personally I would make the observation with a DMM. The 10Meg input
resistance would be more than enough to take the cable into a
definable voltage range.

AB

It already is!! The PD is there, irregardless of you connecting
anything. Inductive reasoning from knowing what happens at the other
end and making the reasonable assumption that the cable contains
continous length(s) of conductive copper is perfectly sufficient for
*truth* with a high degree of probability. No test is necessary! No
current flow is necessary.

Stop talking sense Roger. Let him enjoy his planet in peace.

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 17:05:02 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 20:33:41 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:




Personally I would make the observation with a DMM. The 10Meg input
resistance would be more than enough to take the cable into a
definable voltage range.

AB

It already is!! The PD is there, irregardless of you connecting
anything. Inductive reasoning from knowing what happens at the other
end and making the reasonable assumption that the cable contains
continous length(s) of conductive copper is perfectly sufficient for
*truth* with a high degree of probability. No test is necessary! No
current flow is necessary.

Stop talking sense Roger. Let him enjoy his planet in peace.

Roger appears to have made the measurement at the point the cable is
connected to, thus the point is live and the cable becomes live.

If the cable did not contain continuous lengths of conductive copper
then depending on the resistance the cable could once again become
live, or not as the case may be.

This incidentally would tend to be a theoretical situation because the
levels of resistance needed would not be produced by manufacturing
flaws.

AB

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 23 April 2018 19:47:56 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:23:49 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 17/04/2018 20:27, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

Your statement does not agree with the accepted use of the term "live"
in the UK wiring regs.

(that's aside from being nonsense at pretty much any level).

Why?

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Strange colour for copper to come in or are yuo refering to the insulation covering the conductors ?


Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

It is what it is, like a tree in a forest it still exists even if you aren't there to see it.


The wiring regs do not necessarily apply. It might be part of an
aircraft infrastructure for instance,

It could just be on the end of the reel used as a cat toy.

in which case the wiring regs
have no relevance anyway.

Wiring regs only aply if the cable is wired up, there are no wiring regs for cable sitting on a shelf.

Yet until "measured" the cable will still
not be dead, or alive of course.

Most have set up and understanding of what is meant by dead or alive some think it's Pete Burns which can be a result of hanging on to live cable if your name is pete.

Ypou can find out if a cable is dead or alive by inserting it into you urethra, and this advice goes nicely with the subject of this thread :-D

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ?
IS the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a vacuum.

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:42:25 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:16:30 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 08:09, wrote:
On Monday, 23 April 2018 23:47:58 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 22:16:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

Are you suggesting that the circuit will in some way become self aware
and alter its wiring in response to it being labelled?

Of course not, that's stupid. It will remain neither dead nor alive
until an observation of the charge is made.

and you remain neither sane nor insane until you can prove your sanity.
Which appears to not be possible.

Porr old Pork Sword Blinking Soppy - he doesnt really understand
Schrödinger , but he has HEARD of him.

He appears to be conflating quantum indeterminancy with more general
philosophical questions of the existence of the unobserved. Neither
provide a useful or safe (or even theoretically valid) guide for the
practical electrician.

Why not?

Because it doesn't belong.


It slots in with the job perfectly, until an observation is made the
cable is neither alive nor dead,

No the cable is considered dead or alive, you're ability to precieve it is the problem.
Firstly how do you know it's a cable ?
Or is it a wire or a lead, how do you know it;s a conductor ?



what could be a better approach? Grab
the thing and use your body to determine that it's at 240V,

Best option would be to see what it was conencted to.

or buy a
brand spanking new flatscreen and find that the entire properties
energy input is via gas.

WTF.


Personally I would make the observation with a DMM.

You can measure with a DMM you observe with your eyes or ears but that won't tell you whether you're correct or not.


The 10Meg input
resistance would be more than enough to take the cable into a
definable voltage range.

Another meaningless statement "definable voltage range" what does that mean ?


AB

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:29:37 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 23 April 2018 19:47:56 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:23:49 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 17/04/2018 20:27, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

Your statement does not agree with the accepted use of the term "live"
in the UK wiring regs.

(that's aside from being nonsense at pretty much any level).

Why?

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Strange colour for copper to come in or are yuo refering to the insulation covering the conductors ?


Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

It is what it is, like a tree in a forest it still exists even if you aren't there to see it.


The wiring regs do not necessarily apply. It might be part of an
aircraft infrastructure for instance,

It could just be on the end of the reel used as a cat toy.

in which case the wiring regs
have no relevance anyway.

Wiring regs only aply if the cable is wired up, there are no wiring regs for cable sitting on a shelf.

Yet until "measured" the cable will still
not be dead, or alive of course.

Most have set up and understanding of what is meant by dead or alive some think it's Pete Burns which can be a result of hanging on to live cable if your name is pete.

Ypou can find out if a cable is dead or alive by inserting it into you urethra, and this advice goes nicely with the subject of this thread :-D

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ?
IS the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a vacuum.

The load can be anything that transmits the status of the conductor to
the observer.

AB

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:40:01 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:42:25 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:16:30 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 08:09, wrote:
On Monday, 23 April 2018 23:47:58 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 22:16:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

Are you suggesting that the circuit will in some way become self aware
and alter its wiring in response to it being labelled?

Of course not, that's stupid. It will remain neither dead nor alive
until an observation of the charge is made.

and you remain neither sane nor insane until you can prove your sanity.
Which appears to not be possible.

Porr old Pork Sword Blinking Soppy - he doesnt really understand
Schrödinger , but he has HEARD of him.

He appears to be conflating quantum indeterminancy with more general
philosophical questions of the existence of the unobserved. Neither
provide a useful or safe (or even theoretically valid) guide for the
practical electrician.

Why not?

Because it doesn't belong.


It slots in with the job perfectly, until an observation is made the
cable is neither alive nor dead,

No the cable is considered dead or alive, you're ability to precieve it is the problem.
Firstly how do you know it's a cable ?
Or is it a wire or a lead, how do you know it;s a conductor ?

I don't. If you recollect the original question related to cables,
which are usually "dead" or carrying a current.

It may well be something completely different, but as you have failed
to grasp the point with what is arguably the simplest example, can I
suggest that you do not try to stray beyond the cable for the present?




what could be a better approach? Grab
the thing and use your body to determine that it's at 240V,

Best option would be to see what it was conencted to.

or buy a
brand spanking new flatscreen and find that the entire properties
energy input is via gas.

WTF.


Personally I would make the observation with a DMM.

You can measure with a DMM you observe with your eyes or ears but that won't tell you whether you're correct or not.

"VERB

notice or perceive (something) and register it as being
significant."

The observation will take the cable into a state where it can supply
your flat screen TV, or not!



The 10Meg input
resistance would be more than enough to take the cable into a
definable voltage range.

Another meaningless statement "definable voltage range" what does that mean ?


Whatever you want it to mean. What would you want as live? 110V, 240,
415?


Until the measurement the cable could be any, or none of these.


AB

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:44:13 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote: On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ?
IS the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a vacuum.

I know of a Mr Maxwell who might have disagreed with you over the
vacuum, depending how long the wire is and how fast the voltage is
changing.

A true genius! I find it amazing how someone could predict wireless,
Terry Wogan and Monty Python even before Marconi was born.

The only load in a vaccum would be the insulation. A conductor on its
own would remain unobserved and thus neither dead nor alive.

Such a postulation would be very silly though, because you could not
have a vacuum. Assuming it occupies the same universe there will be no
vacuum as only a few million light years from the subject there will
no doubt be metals or charged gasses for it to affect.

AB

whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote: On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ?
IS the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a vacuum.

I know of a Mr Maxwell who might have disagreed with you over the
vacuum, depending how long the wire is and how fast the voltage is
changing.

--

Roger Hayter

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 15:26:11 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:29:37 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 23 April 2018 19:47:56 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:23:49 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 17/04/2018 20:27, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

Your statement does not agree with the accepted use of the term "live"
in the UK wiring regs.

(that's aside from being nonsense at pretty much any level).

Why?

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Strange colour for copper to come in or are yuo refering to the insulation covering the conductors ?


Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

It is what it is, like a tree in a forest it still exists even if you aren't there to see it.


The wiring regs do not necessarily apply. It might be part of an
aircraft infrastructure for instance,

It could just be on the end of the reel used as a cat toy.

in which case the wiring regs
have no relevance anyway.

Wiring regs only aply if the cable is wired up, there are no wiring regs for cable sitting on a shelf.

Yet until "measured" the cable will still
not be dead, or alive of course.

Most have set up and understanding of what is meant by dead or alive some think it's Pete Burns which can be a result of hanging on to live cable if your name is pete.

Ypou can find out if a cable is dead or alive by inserting it into you urethra, and this advice goes nicely with the subject of this thread :-D

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ?
IS the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a vacuum.

The load can be anything that transmits the status of the conductor to
the observer.

So as you've been told a load is always present whether you see it or not.


AB

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 15:37:18 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:40:01 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:42:25 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:16:30 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 08:09, wrote:
On Monday, 23 April 2018 23:47:58 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 22:16:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

Are you suggesting that the circuit will in some way become self aware
and alter its wiring in response to it being labelled?

Of course not, that's stupid. It will remain neither dead nor alive
until an observation of the charge is made.

and you remain neither sane nor insane until you can prove your sanity.
Which appears to not be possible.

Porr old Pork Sword Blinking Soppy - he doesnt really understand
Schrödinger , but he has HEARD of him.

He appears to be conflating quantum indeterminancy with more general
philosophical questions of the existence of the unobserved. Neither
provide a useful or safe (or even theoretically valid) guide for the
practical electrician.

Why not?

Because it doesn't belong.


It slots in with the job perfectly, until an observation is made the
cable is neither alive nor dead,

No the cable is considered dead or alive, you're ability to precieve it is the problem.
Firstly how do you know it's a cable ?
Or is it a wire or a lead, how do you know it;s a conductor ?

I don't. If you recollect the original question related to cables,
which are usually "dead" or carrying a current.

What of cables in a coma, sems you have a problem with the words maybe that's it.
How about a cable NOT carrying a current, what is that called ?


It may well be something completely different,

You mean it could be a bird or a plane or superman ?

but as you have failed
to grasp the point with what is arguably the simplest example, can I
suggest that you do not try to stray beyond the cable for the present?

well as long as it's more than you know I won't worry.


Personally I would make the observation with a DMM.

You can measure with a DMM you observe with your eyes or ears but that won't tell you whether you're correct or not.

"VERB

notice or perceive (something) and register it as being
significant."

How do you see voltage ?


The observation will take the cable into a state where it can supply
your flat screen TV, or not!

???????????????





The 10Meg input
resistance would be more than enough to take the cable into a
definable voltage range.

Another meaningless statement "definable voltage range" what does that mean ?


Whatever you want it to mean. What would you want as live? 110V, 240,
415?

you've claimed it can't be live without currrent, make up your mind.



Until the measurement the cable could be any, or none of these.

It coucld also be a snake,.



AB

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 15:44:18 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote: On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ?
IS the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a vacuum.

I know of a Mr Maxwell who might have disagreed with you over the
vacuum, depending how long the wire is and how fast the voltage is
changing.

what if two wires were 1 metre apart and had negligible cross sectional area and the force between those wires was 1x10^-7n in a vacuum.


--

Roger Hayter

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 08:33:06 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 15:26:11 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:29:37 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Monday, 23 April 2018 19:47:56 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 17:23:49 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 17/04/2018 20:27, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 17 Apr 2018 08:44:05 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 17/04/18 07:49, charles wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
"A live wire is a wire with current flowing through it.

a live wire is still live when there is no load on the circuit.

Well exactly...

No,
With no load it is neither alive nor dead.

Your statement does not agree with the accepted use of the term "live"
in the UK wiring regs.

(that's aside from being nonsense at pretty much any level).

Why?

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Strange colour for copper to come in or are yuo refering to the insulation covering the conductors ?


Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

It is what it is, like a tree in a forest it still exists even if you aren't there to see it.


The wiring regs do not necessarily apply. It might be part of an
aircraft infrastructure for instance,

It could just be on the end of the reel used as a cat toy.

in which case the wiring regs
have no relevance anyway.

Wiring regs only aply if the cable is wired up, there are no wiring regs for cable sitting on a shelf.

Yet until "measured" the cable will still
not be dead, or alive of course.

Most have set up and understanding of what is meant by dead or alive some think it's Pete Burns which can be a result of hanging on to live cable if your name is pete.

Ypou can find out if a cable is dead or alive by inserting it into you urethra, and this advice goes nicely with the subject of this thread :-D

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ?
IS the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a vacuum.

The load can be anything that transmits the status of the conductor to
the observer.

So as you've been told a load is always present whether you see it or not.


The load can be anything that transmits the status of the conductor to
the observer.


One more time eh?

Got it?

AB

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 08:44:56 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 15:44:18 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote: On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ?
IS the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a vacuum.

I know of a Mr Maxwell who might have disagreed with you over the
vacuum, depending how long the wire is and how fast the voltage is
changing.

what if two wires were 1 metre apart and had negligible cross sectional area and the force between those wires was 1x10^-7n in a vacuum.


--

Roger Hayter

1x10^-7n in a vacuum.

There we are, the measurement has been oserved, the cable is "live".

AB

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 08:41:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 15:37:18 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:40:01 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:42:25 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:16:30 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 08:09, wrote:
On Monday, 23 April 2018 23:47:58 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 22:16:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

Until you assign an indicator, it is neither alive nor dead.

Are you suggesting that the circuit will in some way become self aware
and alter its wiring in response to it being labelled?

Of course not, that's stupid. It will remain neither dead nor alive
until an observation of the charge is made.

and you remain neither sane nor insane until you can prove your sanity.
Which appears to not be possible.

Porr old Pork Sword Blinking Soppy - he doesnt really understand
Schrödinger , but he has HEARD of him.

He appears to be conflating quantum indeterminancy with more general
philosophical questions of the existence of the unobserved. Neither
provide a useful or safe (or even theoretically valid) guide for the
practical electrician.

Why not?

Because it doesn't belong.


It slots in with the job perfectly, until an observation is made the
cable is neither alive nor dead,

No the cable is considered dead or alive, you're ability to precieve it is the problem.
Firstly how do you know it's a cable ?
Or is it a wire or a lead, how do you know it;s a conductor ?

I don't. If you recollect the original question related to cables,
which are usually "dead" or carrying a current.

What of cables in a coma, sems you have a problem with the words maybe that's it.
How about a cable NOT carrying a current, what is that called ?

dead.


It may well be something completely different,

You mean it could be a bird or a plane or superman ?

but as you have failed
to grasp the point with what is arguably the simplest example, can I
suggest that you do not try to stray beyond the cable for the present?

well as long as it's more than you know I won't worry.


Personally I would make the observation with a DMM.

You can measure with a DMM you observe with your eyes or ears but that won't tell you whether you're correct or not.

"VERB

notice or perceive (something) and register it as being
significant."

How do you see voltage ?

Perceive or observe, not see!

I look for photons usually.




The observation will take the cable into a state where it can supply
your flat screen TV, or not!

???????????????





The 10Meg input
resistance would be more than enough to take the cable into a
definable voltage range.

Another meaningless statement "definable voltage range" what does that mean ?


Whatever you want it to mean. What would you want as live? 110V, 240,
415?

you've claimed it can't be live without currrent, make up your mind.


No change of mind involved. How would you define whether the cable was
0., 110, 240, 415V ac or even 3.7V DC without drawing current, or
possibly adding to it?

Until the measurement the cable could be any, or none of these.

It coucld also be a snake,.

That is extremely silly.

You are a very naughty boy!

AB

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:20:30 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

On 25/04/2018 14:37, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

I don't. If you recollect the original question related to cables,
which are usually "dead" or carrying a current.

No, Bill's original question quoted some numptie's very poor answer to
the question "Is line wire also called live wire", and asked if the
quoted answer was "dangerous advice".

The answer to the question is simply "yes", the quoted answer is
dangerous advice, because it contained inaccurate and misleading
information on several levels. It also makes a statement about main
wiring which, if trusted, could result in serious injury.

The answer to the original question on wikihow is also "Yes" - A line
wire is also called a live wire"

Until the measurement the cable could be any, or none of these.

Make your mind up, you said "If the wire is connected to 240V, then it
is a live wire that's bloody obvious"

Other than that you have said nothing even remotely pertinent to the
question.

Totally pertinent.

If the wire is connected to 240V and the 240V has been observed then
the cable is live. If the cable is connected to a point that has not
been observed to be 240V, the wire is neither alive nor dead.

The observation is yet to be made, so don't rush out to buy the
toaster, although to be honest the mere fact of connecting the toaster
will take the cable to a dead, or live status.

Which was the prime reason for asking the question initially.

Alive or not alive!

AB

On 25/04/2018 14:37, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

I don't. If you recollect the original question related to cables,
which are usually "dead" or carrying a current.

No, Bill's original question quoted some numptie's very poor answer to
the question "Is line wire also called live wire", and asked if the
quoted answer was "dangerous advice".

The answer to the question is simply "yes", the quoted answer is
dangerous advice, because it contained inaccurate and misleading
information on several levels. It also makes a statement about main
wiring which, if trusted, could result in serious injury.

The answer to the original question on wikihow is also "Yes" - A line
wire is also called a live wire"

Until the measurement the cable could be any, or none of these.

Make your mind up, you said "If the wire is connected to 240V, then it
is a live wire that's bloody obvious"

Other than that you have said nothing even remotely pertinent to the
question.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:44:13 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1,
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote: On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ? IS
the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a
vacuum.

I know of a Mr Maxwell who might have disagreed with you over the
vacuum, depending how long the wire is and how fast the voltage is
changing.

A true genius! I find it amazing how someone could predict wireless,
Terry Wogan and Monty Python even before Marconi was born.

The only load in a vaccum would be the insulation. A conductor on its
own would remain unobserved and thus neither dead nor alive.

As Mr Maxwell predicted, free space provides a load (and has an
impedance which is definable) and can carry real solid generated power
away from your wire to the far ends of the universe.




Such a postulation would be very silly though, because you could not
have a vacuum. Assuming it occupies the same universe there will be no
vacuum as only a few million light years from the subject there will
no doubt be metals or charged gasses for it to affect.

AB

For these purposes, with a few simple precautions, air is just as good
as a vacuum (a theoretical concept as you point out) and the quality of
the vacuum is irrelevant.


--

Roger Hayter

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 17:57:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 08:44:56 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 15:44:18 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote: On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ?
IS the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a vacuum.

I know of a Mr Maxwell who might have disagreed with you over the
vacuum, depending how long the wire is and how fast the voltage is
changing.

what if two wires were 1 metre apart and had negligible cross sectional area and the force between those wires was 1x10^-7n in a vacuum.


--

Roger Hayter

1x10^-7n in a vacuum.

There we are, the measurement has been oserved, the cable is "live".

it's not a cable it's a wire. Do you know the differnce.



AB

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 18:06:28 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 08:41:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 15:37:18 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:40:01 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:42:25 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:16:30 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 08:09, wrote:
On Monday, 23 April 2018 23:47:58 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 22:16:04 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

You come across a cable, pink, yellow, brown, blue, whatever.

On 26/04/18 10:29, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 17:57:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 08:44:56 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 15:44:18 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote: On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ?
IS the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a vacuum.

I know of a Mr Maxwell who might have disagreed with you over the
vacuum, depending how long the wire is and how fast the voltage is
changing.

what if two wires were 1 metre apart and had negligible cross sectional area and the force between those wires was 1x10^-7n in a vacuum.


--

Roger Hayter

1x10^-7n in a vacuum.

There we are, the measurement has been oserved, the cable is "live".

it's not a cable it's a wire. Do you know the differnce.


I certainly do not.

Tell us oh great one, when is a wire not a cable and vice versa?



AB



--
€œIt is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.€�

Thomas Sowell

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 21:41:26 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:44:13 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote:

whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1,
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote: On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ? IS
the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a
vacuum.

I know of a Mr Maxwell who might have disagreed with you over the
vacuum, depending how long the wire is and how fast the voltage is
changing.

A true genius! I find it amazing how someone could predict wireless,
Terry Wogan and Monty Python even before Marconi was born.

The only load in a vaccum would be the insulation. A conductor on its
own would remain unobserved and thus neither dead nor alive.

As Mr Maxwell predicted, free space provides a load (and has an
impedance which is definable) and can carry real solid generated power
away from your wire to the far ends of the universe.




Such a postulation would be very silly though, because you could not
have a vacuum. Assuming it occupies the same universe there will be no
vacuum as only a few million light years from the subject there will
no doubt be metals or charged gasses for it to affect.

AB

For these purposes, with a few simple precautions, air is just as good
as a vacuum (a theoretical concept as you point out) and the quality of
the vacuum is irrelevant.

I hope Mr Dyson isn't reading this ;-)

On Thursday, 26 April 2018 10:39:53 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/04/18 10:29, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 17:57:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 08:44:56 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 15:44:18 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote: On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ?
IS the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a vacuum.

I know of a Mr Maxwell who might have disagreed with you over the
vacuum, depending how long the wire is and how fast the voltage is
changing.

what if two wires were 1 metre apart and had negligible cross sectional area and the force between those wires was 1x10^-7n in a vacuum.


--

Roger Hayter

1x10^-7n in a vacuum.

There we are, the measurement has been oserved, the cable is "live".

it's not a cable it's a wire. Do you know the differnce.


I certainly do not.

Then why not look it up, educate yourself.
http://www.differencebetween.info/di...cable-and-wire



Tell us oh great one, when is a wire not a cable and vice versa?

Now you need to educate yuorself on the differnce bewteeen potential difference and voltage.
http://www.differencebetween.info/di...ial-difference

you might also need to understand what is actual meant by live.

If you watch a youtube video of someone connecting a circuit to 240V and lighting a bulb does that make the cable or wore 'Live" or is it recorded,
you might then need to understand the differnce between soneone that says they love a kebab and someone that says they love their partner or their pet.
And those that say they could murder a beer or eat a horse.

On 26/04/18 11:48, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 26 April 2018 10:39:53 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/04/18 10:29, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 17:57:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 08:44:56 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 15:44:18 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote: On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ?
IS the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a vacuum.

I know of a Mr Maxwell who might have disagreed with you over the
vacuum, depending how long the wire is and how fast the voltage is
changing.

what if two wires were 1 metre apart and had negligible cross sectional area and the force between those wires was 1x10^-7n in a vacuum.


--

Roger Hayter

1x10^-7n in a vacuum.

There we are, the measurement has been oserved, the cable is "live".

it's not a cable it's a wire. Do you know the differnce.


I certainly do not.

Then why not look it up, educate yourself.
http://www.differencebetween.info/di...cable-and-wire



one man's semantic pedantry



Tell us oh great one, when is a wire not a cable and vice versa?

Now you need to educate yuorself on the differnce bewteeen potential difference and voltage.
http://www.differencebetween.info/di...ial-difference


Oh dear.

In that article: "Electric potential difference is the same as voltage"


you might also need to understand what is actual meant by live.

I am smiling - do carry on.





If you watch a youtube video of someone connecting a circuit to 240V
and lighting a bulb does that make the cable or wore 'Live" or is it
recorded,
you might then need to understand the differnce between soneone that
says they love a kebab and someone that says they love their partner or
their pet.
And those that say they could murder a beer or eat a horse.








--
Its easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.
Mark Twain

On 26/04/18 10:39, whisky-dave wrote:

How does a live or dead cable produce photons ?

AC current will generate photons (aka radio waves)

On Thursday, 26 April 2018 12:52:26 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/04/18 11:48, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 26 April 2018 10:39:53 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/04/18 10:29, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 17:57:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp wrote:
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 08:44:56 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 April 2018 15:44:18 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:
whisky-dave wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 April 2018 17:33:30 UTC+1, Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp
wrote: On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:48:57 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

That would constitute a measurement. The act of doing this would make
the cable live, or dead.

No it would not.




Unless you can prove otherwise :-)


Try it and let us know.

That's not proving otherwise. Connecting any load is in fact making an
observation, whether the load be a DMM or an organic breathing entity.

then define load?, is the insulation around the conductor a load ?
IS the air a load, the only thing that can't be considered a load is a vacuum.

I know of a Mr Maxwell who might have disagreed with you over the
vacuum, depending how long the wire is and how fast the voltage is
changing.

what if two wires were 1 metre apart and had negligible cross sectional area and the force between those wires was 1x10^-7n in a vacuum.


--

Roger Hayter

1x10^-7n in a vacuum.

There we are, the measurement has been oserved, the cable is "live".

it's not a cable it's a wire. Do you know the differnce.


I certainly do not.

Then why not look it up, educate yourself.
http://www.differencebetween.info/di...cable-and-wire



one man's semantic pedantry

When working in education you really should try to get things like this correct.
As I explained to the academic that asked me to take the Vandergraaf generator and a meter to a lectuer room.
I asked her what sort of meter as I don't think we've ever used one in the past, she said oh sorry I'm bulgarian when I said a meter I ment a metre stick, you know the rulers you keep in the lab.



Tell us oh great one, when is a wire not a cable and vice versa?

Now you need to educate yuorself on the differnce bewteeen potential difference and voltage.
http://www.differencebetween.info/di...ial-difference


Oh dear.

In that article: "Electric potential difference is the same as voltage"

But NOT in calculations, we always use voltage when we mean potentail differnce.
We say that V=IR so without current there is NO voltage so in that case a live wire could be considered dead, but that doesn't mean there is NO potentail differnce, and that for me is the differnce.

It;s like standing on the edge of a cliff, theer'es the potential to kill yuotself by falling but if you don't fall that deosn't mean there is no danger/risk.



you might also need to understand what is actual meant by live.

I am smiling - do carry on.

OK Live today we are watching live football but is it at 240V ?
Why use the term live do you even know ?
So what voltages do you think we can say the wire/cable is live can we say it's live if we have 1V on it ?
Is static electricity live ?
So a charged ballon can be live.

and when is a PP3 battery dead or any other battery.
I have about 100 AAs, AAAs, 2032, PP3s and other batteries in a bucket to be recycled people tell me they have dead batteries but some of them sghow 0.8V and when tested have 20% power remaining and measure above 1 volt are those batteries dead or alive ?

On Thursday, 26 April 2018 13:11:44 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 26/04/18 10:39, whisky-dave wrote:

How does a live or dead cable produce photons ?

AC current will generate photons (aka radio waves)

Unless your are talking about then Gestalt Aether Theory then prove it.

On 26/04/2018 10:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

it's not a cable it's a wire. Do you know the differnce.


I certainly do not.

Tell us oh great one, when is a wire not a cable and vice versa?

the cable on a suspension bridge is not a wire. It may be made of
several wires or several cables.