Not so smart meter
 

Eon came to install a smart meter in the cellar. But there was not
enough signal strength. (Well, I never would have expected that, in a
cellar, below ground level, etc.) So, the meter was not installed.

Surely, there must be some simple solution to this? The meter is a
couple of metres from an air brick, so why not run an aerial lead
through that?

Not so smart meter
 

On 04/10/2017 09:59, GB wrote:
Eon came to install a smart meter in the cellar. But there was not
enough signal strength. (Well, I never would have expected that, in a
cellar, below ground level, etc.) So, the meter was not installed.

Surely, there must be some simple solution to this? The meter is a
couple of metres from an air brick, so why not run an aerial lead
through that?


The simple solution is not to have a smart meter.

--
Michael Chare

Not so smart meter
 

On 04/10/2017 10:46, Michael Chare wrote:
On 04/10/2017 09:59, GB wrote:
Eon came to install a smart meter in the cellar. But there was not
enough signal strength. (Well, I never would have expected that, in a
cellar, below ground level, etc.) So, the meter was not installed.

Surely, there must be some simple solution to this? The meter is a
couple of metres from an air brick, so why not run an aerial lead
through that?


The simple solution is not to have a smart meter.


It wasn't for me, but for a tenant at my old office, who finds it a
chore to go into the cellar to read the meter. I can't say I blame her
for that, and it's a simple enough solution to that problem.

Not so smart meter
 

On 04/10/2017 11:01, GB wrote:
On 04/10/2017 10:46, Michael Chare wrote:
On 04/10/2017 09:59, GB wrote:
Eon came to install a smart meter in the cellar. But there was not
enough signal strength. (Well, I never would have expected that, in a
cellar, below ground level, etc.) So, the meter was not installed.

Surely, there must be some simple solution to this? The meter is a
couple of metres from an air brick, so why not run an aerial lead
through that?


The simple solution is not to have a smart meter.


It wasn't for me, but for a tenant at my old office, who finds it a
chore to go into the cellar to read the meter. I can't say I blame her
for that, and it's a simple enough solution to that problem.


I had the same problem, except the meter was to be installed in my
garage. Must be pretty weak as my phones work fine.


a

Not so smart meter
 

GB wrote:
Eon came to install a smart meter in the cellar. But there was not
enough signal strength. (Well, I never would have expected that, in a
cellar, below ground level, etc.) So, the meter was not installed.

Surely, there must be some simple solution to this? The meter is a
couple of metres from an air brick, so why not run an aerial lead
through that?

Most antennas are on the circuit board in these sort of devices and work
at all sorts of funny impedances.
The extra circuitry to have a 50 or 75 ohm connector to a length of
cable and hence onto a remote antenna is a significant expense and
design complication.
Long term I don't know what the official solution will be to these
difficult locations especially until we have cellular coverage rolled
out to every sq metre of the UK.
The whole smart metering thing is ill-thought out from start to ..........

Not so smart meter
 

You will probably find like most hubs, and phones the aerial is a bit of
printed circuit with no way to extend it, I mean if its inside a meter, its
probably not even isolated from the mains anyway, so trying to do as you ask
would be illegal. Its illegal to open a meter in any case once its been
sealed for calibration reasons.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"GB" wrote in message
...
Eon came to install a smart meter in the cellar. But there was not enough
signal strength. (Well, I never would have expected that, in a cellar,
below ground level, etc.) So, the meter was not installed.

Surely, there must be some simple solution to this? The meter is a couple
of metres from an air brick, so why not run an aerial lead through that?

Not so smart meter
 

The other simple solution is not to have a half baked smart meter which
nobody else can use as a smart meter cos the industry is bloody useless at
agreeing on a standard protocol on how they will be used.

I asked EDF for one of the talking remote boxes that I was advised were
available they informed me that nobody had made any yet and as I was on
Economy 7 the software in current meters stocked was not able to cope with
that!

One could not invent such incompetence, but still it exists just like
Jellyfish and sleeping policemen.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
On 04/10/2017 09:59, GB wrote:
Eon came to install a smart meter in the cellar. But there was not enough
signal strength. (Well, I never would have expected that, in a cellar,
below ground level, etc.) So, the meter was not installed.

Surely, there must be some simple solution to this? The meter is a couple
of metres from an air brick, so why not run an aerial lead through that?


The simple solution is not to have a smart meter.

--
Michael Chare

Not so smart meter
 

In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:

[Snip]

One could not invent such incompetence, but still it exists just like
Jellyfish and sleeping policemen.
Brian

One of my fellow Parish Councillors, when referring to a particular County
Council department, said "They're so incompetant, they must rehearse at it."

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

Not so smart meter
 

GB wrote:

Eon came to install a smart meter in the cellar. But there was not
enough signal strength.

Before e.on installed my smart meters they asked me whether I knew there
was good O2 signal at the electric meter location - do they no longer
ask, or did they ask but you were unable to tell them, so they tried anyway?

Not so smart meter
 

"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
...
GB wrote:
Eon came to install a smart meter in the cellar. But there was not
enough signal strength. (Well, I never would have expected that, in a
cellar, below ground level, etc.) So, the meter was not installed.

Surely, there must be some simple solution to this? The meter is a
couple of metres from an air brick, so why not run an aerial lead
through that?

Most antennas are on the circuit board in these sort of devices and work
at all sorts of funny impedances.
The extra circuitry to have a 50 or 75 ohm connector to a length of cable
and hence onto a remote antenna is a significant expense and design
complication.

But there is no reason why there can't be more than one version of that
board, so the one with the external antenna can be used when required.

Long term I don't know what the official solution will be to these
difficult locations especially until we have cellular coverage rolled out
to every sq metre of the UK.

Or just accept the fact that a few are stuck with manual meters for now.

The whole smart metering thing is ill-thought out from start to ..........

Only in a few areas like not having a universal design that all suppliers
can use.

Not so smart meter
 

On 04/10/2017 10:46, Michael Chare wrote:
On 04/10/2017 09:59, GB wrote:
Eon came to install a smart meter in the cellar. But there was not
enough signal strength. (Well, I never would have expected that, in a
cellar, below ground level, etc.) So, the meter was not installed.

Surely, there must be some simple solution to this? The meter is a
couple of metres from an air brick, so why not run an aerial lead
through that?


The simple solution is not to have a smart meter.

They do keep pushing them though. Today I received an email about making
an appointment to have one fitted. There was a link in the email for a
form to complete if you didn't want one. The link opened a form that had
no options for refusing one, only selections for which days and times
you would be available ... I phoned them instead.

Not so smart meter
 

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
GB wrote:

Eon came to install a smart meter in the cellar. But there was not
enough signal strength.

Before e.on installed my smart meters they asked me whether I knew there
was good O2 signal at the electric meter location - do they no longer
ask, or did they ask but you were unable to tell them, so they tried
anyway?

They couldn't fit one to a mate's house in Tooting where the meter was
under the stairs. Like many thousands of other houses.

--
*A plateau is a high form of flattery*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Not so smart meter
 

Rod Speed wrote:


"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
...
GB wrote:
Eon came to install a smart meter in the cellar. But there was not
enough signal strength. (Well, I never would have expected that, in a
cellar, below ground level, etc.) So, the meter was not installed.

Surely, there must be some simple solution to this? The meter is a
couple of metres from an air brick, so why not run an aerial lead
through that?

Most antennas are on the circuit board in these sort of devices and
work at all sorts of funny impedances.
The extra circuitry to have a 50 or 75 ohm connector to a length of
cable and hence onto a remote antenna is a significant expense and
design complication.

But there is no reason why there can't be more than one version of that
board, so the one with the external antenna can be used when required.

Long term I don't know what the official solution will be to these
difficult locations especially until we have cellular coverage rolled
out to every sq metre of the UK.

Or just accept the fact that a few are stuck with manual meters for now.

The whole smart metering thing is ill-thought out from start to
..........

Only in a few areas like not having a universal design that all
suppliers can use.
Internal antennas mean they can use cheaper power supplies with no mains
isolation. Fitting an external connector would force the design to use
an isolated supply internally thus pushing up the cost.
All very doable but no doubt the works cost for these meters is driven
to the bare minimum.

Not so smart meter
 

On 04/10/2017 09:59, GB wrote:
Eon came to install a smart meter in the cellar. But there was not
enough signal strength. (Well, I never would have expected that, in a
cellar, below ground level, etc.) So, the meter was not installed.

Surely, there must be some simple solution to this? The meter is a
couple of metres from an air brick, so why not run an aerial lead
through that?

My understanding is that whilst Gas smart meters are battery powered,
the electricity ones are mains-powered.

Is that the case? and if so, who pays for powering them? probably
insignificant, but just wondering.

Not so smart meter
 

JoeJoe wrote:

My understanding is that whilst Gas smart meters are battery powered,
the electricity ones are mains-powered.

Is that the case?

Yes, in my case

and if so, who pays for powering them? probably
insignificant, but just wondering.

I think the power of the meter is drawn from the supplier's side, not
the customer's side, but that's the same with a dumb electronic meter as
a smart meter.

Not so smart meter
 

Andy Burns wrote:
JoeJoe wrote:

My understanding is that whilst Gas smart meters are battery powered,
the electricity ones are mains-powered.

Is that the case?

Yes, in my case

and if so, who pays for powering them? probably
insignificant, but just wondering.

I think the power of the meter is drawn from the supplier's side, not
the customer's side, but that's the same with a dumb electronic meter as
a smart meter.



Pedantically, the current sense coil will transfer a minute amount of
paid for power into the measuring circuit even if the rest of the meter
is powered from the supply side.
But as this is UK d-i-y we are allowed to be pedants sometimes!

Not so smart meter
 

On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 14:40:53 UTC+1, Bob Minchin wrote:

Most antennas are on the circuit board in these sort of devices and work
at all sorts of funny impedances.
The extra circuitry to have a 50 or 75 ohm connector to a length of
cable and hence onto a remote antenna is a significant expense and
design complication.

The ones I know about are a good match to 50 ohms. However, the comment
made elsewhere about mains isolation being expensive is probably valid.
Also, an external antenna would be very easy to disable, should the
customer wish to do without useful features such as remote disconnection
of the supply.

John

Not so smart meter
 

On 06/10/2017 11:13, wrote:
On Wednesday, 4 October 2017 14:40:53 UTC+1, Bob Minchin wrote:

Most antennas are on the circuit board in these sort of devices and work
at all sorts of funny impedances.
The extra circuitry to have a 50 or 75 ohm connector to a length of
cable and hence onto a remote antenna is a significant expense and
design complication.

The ones I know about are a good match to 50 ohms. However, the comment
made elsewhere about mains isolation being expensive is probably valid.
Also, an external antenna would be very easy to disable, should the
customer wish to do without useful features such as remote disconnection
of the supply.

If they implement that feature, it'll probably require a periodic
connection to *stop* it from disconnecting.

--
Max Demian

Not so smart meter
 

On Fri, 6 Oct 2017 13:24:21 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

Also, an external antenna would be very easy to disable, should
the
customer wish to do without useful features such as remote
disconnection of the supply.

If they implement that feature, it'll probably require a periodic
connection to *stop* it from disconnecting.

If?

So your local cell site goes off and sometime later so does your
power? FTFAGOS!

They, but possibly not the right "they", are already worried about
the system being hacked and multiple meters been told to disconnect
and/or re-connect in a very short space of time. Great way to
destabilse the grid...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Not so smart meter
 

On 06/10/2017 15:20, Dave Liquorice wrote:

If they implement that feature, it'll probably require a periodic
connection to *stop* it from disconnecting.

If?

So your local cell site goes off and sometime later so does your
power? FTFAGOS!

I was assured by British gas that the smart meter could not disconnect
my leccy remotely.

Bill

Not so smart meter
 

Bill Wright wrote:
On 06/10/2017 15:20, Dave Liquorice wrote:

If they implement that feature, it'll probably require a periodic
connection to *stop* it from disconnecting.

If?

So your local cell site goes off and sometime later so does your
power? FTFAGOS!

I was assured by British gas that the smart meter could not disconnect
my leccy remotely.

Bill
Well that just reinforces how far anyone should trust BG about anything.

Not so smart meter
 

"Bob Minchin" wrote in message
...
Bill Wright wrote:
On 06/10/2017 15:20, Dave Liquorice wrote:

If they implement that feature, it'll probably require a periodic
connection to *stop* it from disconnecting.

If?

So your local cell site goes off and sometime later so does your
power? FTFAGOS!

I was assured by British gas that the smart meter could not disconnect
my leccy remotely.

Bill
Well that just reinforces how far anyone should trust BG about anything.

I have no gas, and my smart electric meter does not have the capability of
being switched off, as judged by its spec found online, and by the assurance
from the electricity provider on the phone when I agreed to have it
installed.
--
Dave W

Not so smart meter
 

In article ,
Dave W wrote:
I was assured by British gas that the smart meter could not
disconnect my leccy remotely.

Bill
Well that just reinforces how far anyone should trust BG about
anything.

I have no gas, and my smart electric meter does not have the capability
of being switched off, as judged by its spec found online, and by the
assurance from the electricity provider on the phone when I agreed to
have it installed.

Aren't they a bit small to contain something capable of switching 100 amps?

--
*Stable Relationships Are For Horses. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Not so smart meter
 

On 06/10/2017 16:40, Dave W wrote:

I have no gas, and my smart electric meter does not have the capability of
being switched off, as judged by its spec found online, and by the assurance
from the electricity provider on the phone when I agreed to have it
installed.

The problem is that the spec may tell you how it's supposed to work, not
how it's going to work after the firmware is hacked. :)

In particular, the manufacturer might have two models: one that can be
turned off remotely, and one that can't. The difference may just lie in
the firmware. If that can be updated remotely, then ....

Not so smart meter
 

Bill Wright wrote:

I was assured by British gas that the smart meter could not disconnect
my leccy remotely.

I suspect they lied (or at best the person you spoke to didn't know)
because all the specs for them I've looked at show the electric ones
having a 100A contactor and the gas ones having a shutoff valve.

Not so smart meter
 

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Aren't they a bit small to contain something capable of switching 100 amps?

They're the same size as pre-pay meters, they chop you off when the
shilling runs out ...

Not so smart meter
 

On 06/10/2017 16:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


I have no gas, and my smart electric meter does not have the capability
of being switched off, as judged by its spec found online, and by the
assurance from the electricity provider on the phone when I agreed to
have it installed.

Aren't they a bit small to contain something capable of switching 100 amps?

The technical spec for smart meters has required a load switch for a
along time now - eg to disable supply if the meter detects tampering. I
don't see that it's hard to do that inside the meter given this is not a
means of isolation or emergency switching: it's usually just a single
pole job.

Some lobbied for all smart meters to incorporate double pole isolation
so as to avoid the need for people to pull the supply fuse, work live or
call out the operator where there's no isolator )and possibly no room to
fit one). Apparently unsuccessfully.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Not so smart meter
 

Robin wrote:

Some lobbied for all smart meters to incorporate double pole isolation
so as to avoid the need for people to pull the supply fuse, work live or
call out the operator where there's no isolator

Would you prefer to work on an installation that could come live at the
press of a wrong button in Bangalore, or where you know the supply fuse
holder is in your pocket?

Not so smart meter
 

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 06/10/2017 16:40, Dave W wrote:

I have no gas, and my smart electric meter does not have the capability
of
being switched off, as judged by its spec found online, and by the
assurance
from the electricity provider on the phone when I agreed to have it
installed.

The problem is that the spec may tell you how it's supposed to work,

And whether it can switch 100A even if it wanted to, or even
switch anything rather than just recording how much you use.

not how it's going to work after the firmware is hacked. :)

In particular, the manufacturer might have two models: one that can be
turned off remotely, and one that can't.

And the specs would say that.

The difference may just lie in the firmware. If that can be updated
remotely, then ....

Unlikely they would put a 100A contactor in them all.

Not so smart meter
 

"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 06/10/2017 16:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


I have no gas, and my smart electric meter does not have the capability
of being switched off, as judged by its spec found online, and by the
assurance from the electricity provider on the phone when I agreed to
have it installed.

Aren't they a bit small to contain something capable of switching 100
amps?

The technical spec for smart meters has required a load switch for a along
time now - eg to disable supply if the meter detects tampering. I don't
see that it's hard to do that inside the meter given this is not a means
of isolation or emergency switching: it's usually just a single pole job.

Some lobbied for all smart meters to incorporate double pole isolation so
as to avoid the need for people to pull the supply fuse, work live or call
out the operator where there's no isolator )and possibly no room to fit
one). Apparently unsuccessfully.

Where is this technical spec for smart meters?
--
Dave W

Not so smart meter
 

On 07/10/17 11:27, Dave W wrote:
"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 06/10/2017 16:50, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


I have no gas, and my smart electric meter does not have the capability
of being switched off, as judged by its spec found online, and by the
assurance from the electricity provider on the phone when I agreed to
have it installed.

Aren't they a bit small to contain something capable of switching 100
amps?

The technical spec for smart meters has required a load switch for a along
time now - eg to disable supply if the meter detects tampering. I don't
see that it's hard to do that inside the meter given this is not a means
of isolation or emergency switching: it's usually just a single pole job.

Some lobbied for all smart meters to incorporate double pole isolation so
as to avoid the need for people to pull the supply fuse, work live or call
out the operator where there's no isolator )and possibly no room to fit
one). Apparently unsuccessfully.

Where is this technical spec for smart meters?


Several I suspect.

It seems that the various suppliers fit different ones and, if you
change supplier, the 'old' smart meter is likely to be incompatible with
the new company. Therefore it is switched to a 'dumb' mode, even as I
understand it the 'remote display' can stop functioning.

There seems to be a lot of negative propaganda re smart meters but the
incompatibility issue seems to be genuine.

Of all of the basic functions the various designs should surely include
is a basic 'smart mode' which is allows all companies to use them- at
least for remote reading and maintaining the remote display operation.
But, of course, the smart meter idea was a knee jerk reaction to 'a
problem' (real or not), rushed into implementation.

Not so smart meter
 

On 07/10/2017 12:22, Brian Reay wrote:


It seems that the various suppliers fit different ones and, if you
change supplier, the 'old' smart meter is likely to be incompatible with
the new company. Therefore it is switched to a 'dumb' mode, even as I
understand it the 'remote display' can stop functioning.






I had to phone EDF yesterday to cancel the appointment they had made for
me (_again_) to come and fit a smart meter, in spite of being told
repeatedly that I would contact them when I was ready. Whilst there, I
asked about this and (FWIW) they confirmed that these are first
generation meters that revert to dumb if the supplier changes, and that
the second generation ones would be out 'sometime next year'.

Not so smart meter
 

Dave W wrote:

Where is this technical spec for smart meters?

https://www.gov.uk/government/consul...second-version

I haven't yet read them.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

Not so smart meter
 

"Chris J Dixon" wrote in message
...
Dave W wrote:

Where is this technical spec for smart meters?

https://www.gov.uk/government/consul...second-version

I haven't yet read them.

Chris

Thanks. The top document is a draft update published in 2014. The website
also includes responses from many suppliers to questions raised regarding
earlier editions in 2012. I looked at my own supplier's response (EDF) and
am glad to see (Question 21) that they are not in favour of allowing
suppliers to disable the supply remotely. They did suggest that if they were
allowed, then the meter should have a countdown timer to re-enable the
supply after some period if no further command was received.
--
Dave W

Not so smart meter
 

In article ,
lid writes:
On 07/10/2017 12:22, Brian Reay wrote:


It seems that the various suppliers fit different ones and, if you
change supplier, the 'old' smart meter is likely to be incompatible with
the new company. Therefore it is switched to a 'dumb' mode, even as I
understand it the 'remote display' can stop functioning.






I had to phone EDF yesterday to cancel the appointment they had made for
me (_again_) to come and fit a smart meter, in spite of being told
repeatedly that I would contact them when I was ready. Whilst there, I
asked about this and (FWIW) they confirmed that these are first
generation meters that revert to dumb if the supplier changes, and that
the second generation ones would be out 'sometime next year'.

There is no money to replace the first generation ones - if you have
one, you are probably now stuck with it.

The original idea was to just update the firmware, but the security
now required by SMETS2 to prevent unauthorised access to switch you
off (at GCHQ's insistance) can't be implemented in first generation
smart meters by firmware upgrade.

If you want a smart meter, wait for a SMETS2 one.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Not so smart meter
 

Tim Streater wrote:

In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:

If you want a smart meter, wait for a SMETS2 one.

I'm still unclear as to why I might *want* a smart meter.

Indeed. I feel I might want to go to some lengths to avoid having one.

Even the name, which apparently has nothing to do with surface finish
and cleanliness, is worrying.

--

Roger Hayter

Not so smart meter
 

On 08/10/2017 13:56, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:

If you want a smart meter, wait for a SMETS2 one.

I'm still unclear as to why I might *want* a smart meter.


I wanted one because:

1. It meant I could have an isolator fitted for around 30 quid - switch
and tails included.

2. I also gained the assurance that the fuse in the incomer (which
hadn't been touched for decades) was safe to remove.

3. The smart meter avoided the need to have meter readers calling at
inconvenient hours for the electricity meter indoors. (Inner London
gets more visits than the average checks.) Also avoided the need for me
to go outside to read the gas meter.

4. I have a Henley block available to bypass the meter should the need
arise ;)

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Not so smart meter
 

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Andrew Gabriel
wrote:

If you want a smart meter, wait for a SMETS2 one.

I'm still unclear as to why I might *want* a smart meter.

So you dont have to **** around reading the damned thing manually, stupid.