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#1
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Floor fan won't run?
Hi all,
I've been given one of those big chrome floor standing 3 speed fans to look at because it doesn't run. It was given to my mate (not running) so I don't have any information beyond that. When you power it up you can hear/ feel the thing 'humming' slightly, suggesting it is receiving power yet the fan doesn't spin on any of the speeds, even when the fan blade is given a little push (either way). The fan blades are very free to move and the fan looks pretty new (so I'm not ruling out a d.o.a.). I think it's wired up like this: http://waterheatertimer.org/images/M...citor1-800.jpg (except it's not a 'start' cap / winding but 'run' on these motors isn't it)? Measuring ohms from neutral (basically across the L/N on the mains plug) I get: 219 Ohms on speed 3, 375 on speed 2, 393 on speed 1 (slowest) and infinity with it off (of course). ;-) Measuring between the 3 wires coming out of the motor to the switch I get: N-S3 = 219, S3-S2 = 157 and S2-S1 = 46 ohms (so doesn't quite add up correctly (422 v 393)? There is also a run (?) cap of 2uF that tests out on my DMM (as 2uF) (and open circuit on the ohms test) and a run winding that measures 375 ohm. Measuring the voltage across the cap with it on speed 1 gives 206V (does that sound right)? I can't see any thermal trips so apart from the cap breaking down under load (I have one on order just in case) or it being wired up incorrectly (within the motor, can't get at much in there without cutting it open) I can't see what the cause of it not running is? Any thoughts or ideas please? Cheers, T i m |
#2
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Floor fan won't run?
On Saturday, 24 June 2017 17:09:57 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
Hi all, I've been given one of those big chrome floor standing 3 speed fans to look at because it doesn't run. It was given to my mate (not running) so I don't have any information beyond that. When you power it up you can hear/ feel the thing 'humming' slightly, suggesting it is receiving power yet the fan doesn't spin on any of the speeds, even when the fan blade is given a little push (either way). The fan blades are very free to move and the fan looks pretty new (so I'm not ruling out a d.o.a.). I think it's wired up like this: http://waterheatertimer.org/images/M...citor1-800.jpg (except it's not a 'start' cap / winding but 'run' on these motors isn't it)? Measuring ohms from neutral (basically across the L/N on the mains plug) I get: 219 Ohms on speed 3, 375 on speed 2, 393 on speed 1 (slowest) and infinity with it off (of course). ;-) Measuring between the 3 wires coming out of the motor to the switch I get: N-S3 = 219, S3-S2 = 157 and S2-S1 = 46 ohms (so doesn't quite add up correctly (422 v 393)? There is also a run (?) cap of 2uF that tests out on my DMM (as 2uF) (and open circuit on the ohms test) and a run winding that measures 375 ohm. Measuring the voltage across the cap with it on speed 1 gives 206V (does that sound right)? I can't see any thermal trips so apart from the cap breaking down under load (I have one on order just in case) or it being wired up incorrectly (within the motor, can't get at much in there without cutting it open) I can't see what the cause of it not running is? Any thoughts or ideas please? Cheers, T i m Normally these things use a squirrel cage motor plus 2 series caps for speed reduction. NT |
#3
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Floor fan won't run?
On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 11:01:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
snip Normally these things use a squirrel cage motor plus 2 series caps for speed reduction. Very sure this is stock and deffo only one cap. It's one of these (not Clarke particularly). https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clar...hrome-floor-f/ Cheers, T i m |
#4
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Floor fan won't run?
T i m wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 11:01:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote: snip Normally these things use a squirrel cage motor plus 2 series caps for speed reduction. Very sure this is stock and deffo only one cap. It's one of these (not Clarke particularly). https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clar...hrome-floor-f/ Cheers, T i m Assuming it doesn't have brushes, and your continuity tests included the switch, about the only thing you haven't excluded is shorted turns. And possibly capacitor breakdown at mains voltage, so it's worth trying the new one. -- Roger Hayter |
#5
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Floor fan won't run?
On 24/06/2017 17:09, T i m wrote:
Hi all, I've been given one of those big chrome floor standing 3 speed fans to look at because it doesn't run. It was given to my mate (not running) so I don't have any information beyond that. When you power it up you can hear/ feel the thing 'humming' slightly, suggesting it is receiving power yet the fan doesn't spin on any of the speeds, even when the fan blade is given a little push (either way). The fan blades are very free to move and the fan looks pretty new (so I'm not ruling out a d.o.a.). I think it's wired up like this: http://waterheatertimer.org/images/M...citor1-800.jpg (except it's not a 'start' cap / winding but 'run' on these motors isn't it)? Measuring ohms from neutral (basically across the L/N on the mains plug) I get: 219 Ohms on speed 3, 375 on speed 2, 393 on speed 1 (slowest) and infinity with it off (of course). ;-) Measuring between the 3 wires coming out of the motor to the switch I get: N-S3 = 219, S3-S2 = 157 and S2-S1 = 46 ohms (so doesn't quite add up correctly (422 v 393)? There is also a run (?) cap of 2uF that tests out on my DMM (as 2uF) (and open circuit on the ohms test) and a run winding that measures 375 ohm. Measuring the voltage across the cap with it on speed 1 gives 206V (does that sound right)? What's the voltage across the winding? Higher the better. If its nominally (230 - 206) then it suggests the winding is a resistor indicating a shorted turn somewhere. I'd like to see 100V or more. I can't see any thermal trips so apart from the cap breaking down under load (I have one on order just in case) or it being wired up incorrectly (within the motor, can't get at much in there without cutting it open) I can't see what the cause of it not running is? Any thoughts or ideas please? Cheers, T i m |
#6
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Floor fan won't run?
T i m wrote:
Hi all, I've been given one of those big chrome floor standing 3 speed fans to look at because it doesn't run. It was given to my mate (not running) so I don't have any information beyond that. When you power it up you can hear/ feel the thing 'humming' slightly, suggesting it is receiving power yet the fan doesn't spin on any of the speeds, even when the fan blade is given a little push (either way). The fan blades are very free to move and the fan looks pretty new (so I'm not ruling out a d.o.a.). I think it's wired up like this: http://waterheatertimer.org/images/M...citor1-800.jpg (except it's not a 'start' cap / winding but 'run' on these motors isn't it)? Measuring ohms from neutral (basically across the L/N on the mains plug) I get: 219 Ohms on speed 3, 375 on speed 2, 393 on speed 1 (slowest) and infinity with it off (of course). ;-) Measuring between the 3 wires coming out of the motor to the switch I get: N-S3 = 219, S3-S2 = 157 and S2-S1 = 46 ohms (so doesn't quite add up correctly (422 v 393)? There is also a run (?) cap of 2uF that tests out on my DMM (as 2uF) (and open circuit on the ohms test) and a run winding that measures 375 ohm. Measuring the voltage across the cap with it on speed 1 gives 206V (does that sound right)? I can't see any thermal trips so apart from the cap breaking down under load (I have one on order just in case) or it being wired up incorrectly (within the motor, can't get at much in there without cutting it open) I can't see what the cause of it not running is? Any thoughts or ideas please? Cheers, T i m These normally use a shaded pole motor. The rule of thumb for feed current via a capacitor is 80mA per uF. So you should have a maximum current below this. measure the current with a moving coli meter.IME if after stripping the motor and soaking the sintered bushes in an oil/parafin mix then reassembling, you are looking for a duff connection somewhere as your resistance reading seem reasonable. Good luck. |
#7
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Floor fan won't run?
On 24/06/2017 20:28, Capitol wrote:
T i m wrote: Hi all, I've been given one of those big chrome floor standing 3 speed fans to look at because it doesn't run. It was given to my mate (not running) so I don't have any information beyond that. When you power it up you can hear/ feel the thing 'humming' slightly, suggesting it is receiving power yet the fan doesn't spin on any of the speeds, even when the fan blade is given a little push (either way). The fan blades are very free to move and the fan looks pretty new (so I'm not ruling out a d.o.a.). I think it's wired up like this: http://waterheatertimer.org/images/M...citor1-800.jpg (except it's not a 'start' cap / winding but 'run' on these motors isn't it)? Measuring ohms from neutral (basically across the L/N on the mains plug) I get: 219 Ohms on speed 3, 375 on speed 2, 393 on speed 1 (slowest) and infinity with it off (of course). ;-) Measuring between the 3 wires coming out of the motor to the switch I get: N-S3 = 219, S3-S2 = 157 and S2-S1 = 46 ohms (so doesn't quite add up correctly (422 v 393)? There is also a run (?) cap of 2uF that tests out on my DMM (as 2uF) (and open circuit on the ohms test) and a run winding that measures 375 ohm. Measuring the voltage across the cap with it on speed 1 gives 206V (does that sound right)? I can't see any thermal trips so apart from the cap breaking down under load (I have one on order just in case) or it being wired up incorrectly (within the motor, can't get at much in there without cutting it open) I can't see what the cause of it not running is? Any thoughts or ideas please? Cheers, T i m These normally use a shaded pole motor. The rule of thumb for feed current via a capacitor is 80mA per uF. So you should have a maximum current below this. measure the current with a moving coli meter.IME if after stripping the motor and soaking the sintered bushes in an oil/parafin mix then reassembling, you are looking for a duff connection somewhere as your resistance reading seem reasonable. Good luck. The OP has already measured the capacitor value to be 2uF. With 206V on speed '1' I would expect around 150mA and I guess would confirm that side is working. There aren't many AC moving coil ammeters still around! I think we're talking clamp meter which is a lot less intrusive. |
#8
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Floor fan won't run?
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#9
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Floor fan won't run?
On Saturday, 24 June 2017 21:05:13 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:20:18 +0100, (Roger Hayter) wrote: snip Assuming it doesn't have brushes, It doesn't Roger, an AC 'synchronous motor' I think they call them. I don't think it can be. Sychronous motors lock to the mains frequency. Fan motors have slip. and your continuity tests included the switch, They did, and without (just in case). I also forgot to mention there was a sort circuit between neutral and one side of the run winding. about the only thing you haven't excluded is shorted turns. And I think that would be difficult without knowing the original resistance of the windings. And possibly capacitor breakdown at mains voltage, so it's worth trying the new one. Check. It should be here on Monday. ;-) Cheers, T i m someone needs a junkbox. NT |
#10
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Floor fan won't run?
On 24/06/2017 21:05, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:20:18 +0100, (Roger Hayter) wrote: snip Assuming it doesn't have brushes, It doesn't Roger, an AC 'synchronous motor' I think they call them. I think I would call them shaded pole induction motor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaded-pole_motor But who knows the economics of motors and control gear these days. |
#11
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Floor fan won't run?
On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:22:35 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:
snip There is also a run (?) cap of 2uF that tests out on my DMM (as 2uF) (and open circuit on the ohms test) and a run winding that measures 375 ohm. Measuring the voltage across the cap with it on speed 1 gives 206V (does that sound right)? What's the voltage across the winding? Higher the better. If its nominally (230 - 206) then it suggests the winding is a resistor indicating a shorted turn somewhere. I'd like to see 100V or more. Now that's weird ... I just put the meter on it again to read the voltage across the run coil, powered it up and it started working! However, it then slowed down again (below that of speed 1) so is it looking more like a bad run cap (given that the thing looks new and all the coils are a nice clean copper colour and seem to read reasonably)? Cheers, T i m |
#13
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Floor fan won't run?
On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 21:17:34 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:
On 24/06/2017 21:05, T i m wrote: On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:20:18 +0100, (Roger Hayter) wrote: snip Assuming it doesn't have brushes, It doesn't Roger, an AC 'synchronous motor' I think they call them. I think I would call them shaded pole induction motor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaded-pole_motor And you would probably be right. I forgot the key term I was thinking of was 'induction'. But who knows the economics of motors and control gear these days. In this case I'm sure it's a pretty cheap and simple induction motor (or some sort) and as you may have seen me mention elsewhere, just span up for a few seconds! Now, it was either the cap having another death spasm or there is an intermittent joint in the wiring somewhere (although it all seems pretty neat, clean and undisturbed). If when I try the replacement cap and assuming it works, I'll give all the wiring a wiggle to make sure. Cheers, T i m |
#14
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Floor fan won't run?
On 24/06/2017 22:09, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 21:17:34 +0100, Fredxxx wrote: On 24/06/2017 21:05, T i m wrote: On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:20:18 +0100, (Roger Hayter) wrote: snip Assuming it doesn't have brushes, It doesn't Roger, an AC 'synchronous motor' I think they call them. I think I would call them shaded pole induction motor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaded-pole_motor And you would probably be right. I forgot the key term I was thinking of was 'induction'. But who knows the economics of motors and control gear these days. In this case I'm sure it's a pretty cheap and simple induction motor (or some sort) and as you may have seen me mention elsewhere, just span up for a few seconds! Now, it was either the cap having another death spasm or there is an intermittent joint in the wiring somewhere (although it all seems pretty neat, clean and undisturbed). If when I try the replacement cap and assuming it works, I'll give all the wiring a wiggle to make sure. Do measure the winding voltage too. It will give a clue to the inductance. Just thought, since you measured capacitance can you also measure inductance? Though I doubt at 50Hz! |
#15
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Floor fan won't run?
On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 23:49:15 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:
snip In this case I'm sure it's a pretty cheap and simple induction motor (or some sort) and as you may have seen me mention elsewhere, just span up for a few seconds! Now, it was either the cap having another death spasm or there is an intermittent joint in the wiring somewhere (although it all seems pretty neat, clean and undisturbed). If when I try the replacement cap and assuming it works, I'll give all the wiring a wiggle to make sure. Do measure the winding voltage too. It will give a clue to the inductance. As I mentioned, I went to and it span up! Just thought, since you measured capacitance can you also measure inductance? Though I doubt at 50Hz! ;-) I need to make the connections safe again and run it up when I'm awake and if it doesn't actually work (or turn out to be a dry joint or some such), I'll see what the voltage is across the run winding. At one point I thought I saw ~12-14V (when it was ~206 across the cap) but when I went to recheck, it was working. Cheers, T i m |
#16
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Floor fan won't run?
These fans have always seemed a bit of a black art. I have one and it seems
to be taking longer than it used to to get to any particular speed nowadays, though does not get very warm. I guess eventually things just tend to wear out but not looked inside while it still goes around. Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "T i m" wrote in message ... On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 13:09:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote: On Saturday, 24 June 2017 21:05:13 UTC+1, T i m wrote: On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:20:18 +0100, (Roger Hayter) wrote: snip Assuming it doesn't have brushes, It doesn't Roger, an AC 'synchronous motor' I think they call them. I don't think it can be. Sychronous motors lock to the mains frequency. Ok. Fan motors have slip. Sure, I was probably just differentiating between a brushed and non-brushed motor. ;-( snip Check. It should be here on Monday. ;-) someone needs a junkbox. 'Someone' has more than enough 'junkboxes' but just none that holds that sort of component (more likely low voltage / digital stuff) or that I can find (hence my question about a box database a bit back). ;-( Cheers, T i m |
#17
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Floor fan won't run?
On Sun, 25 Jun 2017 09:17:06 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote: These fans have always seemed a bit of a black art. There does seem to be a fair selection of configurations that's for sure. I have one and it seems to be taking longer than it used to to get to any particular speed nowadays, though does not get very warm. We have one on the wall in the kitchen and I think airborne grease gets into the bearings and makes them drag till the motor (and / or bearings) warm up. I guess eventually things just tend to wear out but not looked inside while it still goes around. I replaced the blade on mine (plastic went brittle and broke whilst being cleaned so replaced it with an ally one) but am due to try washing the bearings out and re-lubing them to see if that helps it start up quicker. Cheers, T i m |
#18
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Floor fan won't run?
On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:20:18 +0100, (Roger Hayter)
wrote: T i m wrote: On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 11:01:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote: snip Normally these things use a squirrel cage motor plus 2 series caps for speed reduction. Very sure this is stock and deffo only one cap. It's one of these (not Clarke particularly). https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clar...hrome-floor-f/ Cheers, T i m Assuming it doesn't have brushes, and your continuity tests included the switch, about the only thing you haven't excluded is shorted turns. And possibly capacitor breakdown at mains voltage, so it's worth trying the new one. Well, after a bit of a faff (cap didn't arrive) I ordered another from elsewhere, put it on and nothing. ;-( The fan still 'hums' slightly when power is applied, like a coil is getting power but the motor not spinning? The strange thing is previously, if the fan left (for say a couple of days) and you turned it back on again it would actually spin up ... but then slowly slow down and stop again. Strange ... Cheers, T i m |
#19
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Floor fan won't run?
T i m wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 20:20:18 +0100, (Roger Hayter) wrote: T i m wrote: On Sat, 24 Jun 2017 11:01:33 -0700 (PDT), wrote: snip Normally these things use a squirrel cage motor plus 2 series caps for speed reduction. Very sure this is stock and deffo only one cap. It's one of these (not Clarke particularly). https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clar...hrome-floor-f/ Cheers, T i m Assuming it doesn't have brushes, and your continuity tests included the switch, about the only thing you haven't excluded is shorted turns. And possibly capacitor breakdown at mains voltage, so it's worth trying the new one. Well, after a bit of a faff (cap didn't arrive) I ordered another from elsewhere, put it on and nothing. ;-( The fan still 'hums' slightly when power is applied, like a coil is getting power but the motor not spinning? The strange thing is previously, if the fan left (for say a couple of days) and you turned it back on again it would actually spin up ... but then slowly slow down and stop again. Strange ... Cheers, T i m Have you stripped the fan and oiled the sintered bearings? |
#20
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Floor fan won't run?
On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:41:32 +0100, Capitol wrote:
snip Well, after a bit of a faff (cap didn't arrive) I ordered another from elsewhere, put it on and nothing. ;-( The fan still 'hums' slightly when power is applied, like a coil is getting power but the motor not spinning? The strange thing is previously, if the fan left (for say a couple of days) and you turned it back on again it would actually spin up ... but then slowly slow down and stop again. Strange ... Have you stripped the fan and oiled the sintered bearings? No, no need, the fan blade spins very freely and the whole thing looks like new? Cheers, T i m |
#21
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Floor fan won't run?
T i m wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:41:32 +0100, Capitol wrote: snip Well, after a bit of a faff (cap didn't arrive) I ordered another from elsewhere, put it on and nothing. ;-( The fan still 'hums' slightly when power is applied, like a coil is getting power but the motor not spinning? The strange thing is previously, if the fan left (for say a couple of days) and you turned it back on again it would actually spin up ... but then slowly slow down and stop again. Strange ... Have you stripped the fan and oiled the sintered bearings? No, no need, the fan blade spins very freely and the whole thing looks like new? Cheers, T i m Try it, you've nothing to lose. |
#22
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Floor fan won't run?
On Monday, 24 July 2017 13:13:38 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 11:41:32 +0100, Capitol wrote: snip Well, after a bit of a faff (cap didn't arrive) I ordered another from elsewhere, put it on and nothing. ;-( The fan still 'hums' slightly when power is applied, like a coil is getting power but the motor not spinning? The strange thing is previously, if the fan left (for say a couple of days) and you turned it back on again it would actually spin up ... but then slowly slow down and stop again. Strange ... Have you stripped the fan and oiled the sintered bearings? No, no need, the fan blade spins very freely and the whole thing looks like new? Cheers, T i m Fans like to catch fire when they stall. NT |
#23
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Floor fan won't run?
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#24
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Floor fan won't run?
On Monday, 24 July 2017 23:37:23 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 07:13:53 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote: snip No, no need, the fan blade spins very freely and the whole thing looks like new? Fans like to catch fire when they stall. Which is why I don't leave it on for very long (seconds) when it does that. Cheers, T i m I wouldn't leave it on at all, other than during closely watched testing. NT |
#25
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Floor fan won't run?
wrote in message ... On Monday, 24 July 2017 23:37:23 UTC+1, T i m wrote: On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 07:13:53 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote: snip No, no need, the fan blade spins very freely and the whole thing looks like new? Fans like to catch fire when they stall. Which is why I don't leave it on for very long (seconds) when it does that. Cheers, T i m I wouldn't leave it on at all, other than during closely watched testing. Do you not have a dustbin and a few quid to buy a new one? Ohhhhhhhh, it's D i m. We'll have a whip-round, no petrol please, it makes such a ****ing mess. |
#26
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Floor fan won't run?
Mine has a safety feature in that if you touch the fan cage the motor stops but continues to hum. This feature broke once and the fan just hummed when I switched it on. There was a connection to the frame that had gone open circuit. I cant remember the details of how it worked but there was a single connection to the frame and some sort of proximity detector.
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#27
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Floor fan won't run?
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#28
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Floor fan won't run?
On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 01:35:49 +0100, "bm" wrote:
snip Do you not have a dustbin Yes, it's where I keep all your advice and opinions. and a few quid to buy a new one? Why would I buy my mate a new one? I'd just give it back to him to throw in the electrical recycling skip at the tip? snip drool Cheers, T i m |
#29
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Floor fan won't run?
On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 02:40:30 -0700 (PDT), JohnW
wrote: Mine has a safety feature in that if you touch the fan cage the motor stops but continues to hum. Ooerr. Hmm, often when I've been testing it it's just been resting on the sofa (on it's cage). This feature broke once and the fan just hummed when I switched it on. Ok. There was a connection to the frame that had gone open circuit. I cant remember the details of how it worked but there was a single connection to the frame and some sort of proximity detector. Whilst it would be good to think this one had such a feature, I've had it all apart and didn't see anything that looked like it would do that ('electronics' etc). ;-( Cheers, T i m |
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