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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to
concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7697916.html


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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

I am more disengaged with this election than normal, merely because the big
issue of health and social care seems to have nobody who can resolve it
without upping the taxes for all people and nobody wants to actually admit
this.
Brian

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I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to
concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7697916.html




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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects likeTrident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

On 26/05/17 08:27, Brian Gaff wrote:
I am more disengaged with this election than normal, merely because the big
issue of health and social care seems to have nobody who can resolve it
without upping the taxes for all people and nobody wants to actually admit


Take a look closely at the behaviour of your local MP.

No matter what political colour he/she is flying and whether that is in
opposition to your traditional party allegiance, have they personally
been of *any* help to you or your locality in terms of answering
queries, asking questions in the house, being accessible and doing their
service. If so, and particularity if you you think the timing of this
election unnecessary, they should stay.

For the bigger picture, it has already been decided who should lead this
country onwards into the oblivion, and the corporate decisions that are
to take control of that.

It's the local calibre of representation that really matters when it all
goes tits up. If you elect a local point scoring muppet who has no skill
other than playing to antagonise the other side, then say an even faster
goodbye to your democratic access ...

--
Adrian C
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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects likeTrident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

On 26/05/17 08:27, Brian Gaff wrote:
I am more disengaged with this election than normal, merely because the big
issue of health and social care seems to have nobody who can resolve it
without upping the taxes for all people and nobody wants to actually admit
this.


Yep.

Rather than all this prime time debating ******** (which I applaud May
for shunning), they need to do a well through out party political
broadcast, one for each main party, with slides and numbers explaining
the numbers.

I think you'll find that much of the electorate aren't as stupid as the
politicians like to pretend they are and if it was a case of:

"We can improve policing, healthcare and education - but it will cost X.
We can borrow Y and tax Z, and we propose that Y and Z should be...
And if we borrow too much Y with no plan on how to pay it back then
we'll have rampant inflation and it will affect trade in this way"

Then people could make an informed choice.

All we have is:

Corbyn - £250b shortfall, mostly borrowing and some token taxation
against the toffs.

May: No spending and bugger the homeless etc.

Fallon: I don't hate gays, not really... Can I get down from this fence
now, my arse is starting to hurt?

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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

Well when the previous mp was actually in government he made a bit of a
mess, but was good locally. The new guy since 2015 has been very visible but
has managed to do nothing about the closure of banks in the area or indeed
stop the over development of high rise rich folks housing.
We have no Labour person who seems to know how to string two words together
either. The best person at least on policy is Green but stand a as much
chance of election as the Raving loony candidate.

I think, increasingly, its the person who knows how to find the skeletons in
cupboards of those he needs to affect change from which matters, and I see
nobody like that about.
Brian

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"Adrian Caspersz" wrote in message
...
On 26/05/17 08:27, Brian Gaff wrote:
I am more disengaged with this election than normal, merely because the
big
issue of health and social care seems to have nobody who can resolve it
without upping the taxes for all people and nobody wants to actually
admit


Take a look closely at the behaviour of your local MP.

No matter what political colour he/she is flying and whether that is in
opposition to your traditional party allegiance, have they personally been
of *any* help to you or your locality in terms of answering queries,
asking questions in the house, being accessible and doing their service.
If so, and particularity if you you think the timing of this election
unnecessary, they should stay.

For the bigger picture, it has already been decided who should lead this
country onwards into the oblivion, and the corporate decisions that are to
take control of that.

It's the local calibre of representation that really matters when it all
goes tits up. If you elect a local point scoring muppet who has no skill
other than playing to antagonise the other side, then say an even faster
goodbye to your democratic access ...

--
Adrian C





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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

Yes it does look a little bit like negative campaigning, I agree.
No we are not stupid, but all the while the treasury grabs stuff and
fiddles the sheets in the background to look good nobody, probably not even
the elected members knows what the heck is going on. Yes Minister is still
as relevant now as it always was.


I also think we forget how much worse things were in just the 1960s, never
mind before that.
People have come to expect miracles, and sadly these are a little thin on
the ground.
Brian

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The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On 26/05/17 08:27, Brian Gaff wrote:
I am more disengaged with this election than normal, merely because the
big
issue of health and social care seems to have nobody who can resolve it
without upping the taxes for all people and nobody wants to actually
admit
this.


Yep.

Rather than all this prime time debating ******** (which I applaud May for
shunning), they need to do a well through out party political broadcast,
one for each main party, with slides and numbers explaining the numbers.

I think you'll find that much of the electorate aren't as stupid as the
politicians like to pretend they are and if it was a case of:

"We can improve policing, healthcare and education - but it will cost X.
We can borrow Y and tax Z, and we propose that Y and Z should be...
And if we borrow too much Y with no plan on how to pay it back then we'll
have rampant inflation and it will affect trade in this way"

Then people could make an informed choice.

All we have is:

Corbyn - 250b shortfall, mostly borrowing and some token taxation against
the toffs.

May: No spending and bugger the homeless etc.

Fallon: I don't hate gays, not really... Can I get down from this fence
now, my arse is starting to hurt?



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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
I also think we forget how much worse things were in just the 1960s,
never mind before that. People have come to expect miracles, and sadly
these are a little thin on the ground.


In general, people are living longer than in the '60s. And fewer children
look after their elderly parents.

If we spent anything close to the maximum per head other similar countries
do on health care, etc, the 'it simply can't be afforded' message from the
right wing might be valid.

Otherwise, it just comes down to priorities.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity -- I'm a carrier

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
The IRA-loving Leader of Labour is also, today, going to talk cock
about how these attacks are all our fault. Here is a partial response I
gleaned from Twitter:


Al Qaeda was founded in 1988 - 15 yrs before the Iraq invasion. They
also attacked the US on 9/11 - before the Iraq war. They also attacked
US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, killing hundreds of local
citizens. Before the Iraq war.


They bombed a hotel in Yemen in 1992. Before the Iraq war.


You really think the Iraq war the start of the west interfering in the
middle east?

Go and read some history.

--
*El nino made me do it

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects likeTrident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

On 26/05/2017 10:32, Tim Streater wrote:
In article . com, bm
wrote:

I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident
to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...abour-party-tr

ident-theresa-may-a7697916.html


The IRA-loving Leader of Labour is ....


Also invited Hezbollah and Hammas (AKA as Islamic Jihad) to the House of
Parliament (the famous "my friends" speech). Hammas, incidentally, were
unable to attend as they were busy carrying out very similar attacks to
the one in Manchester on buses/restaurants/nightclubs/etc in Israel at
the time.

Good thing they halted campaigning for a couple of days giving him the
chance to go and pay his condolences to the attacker's family as "they
suffer just as much".

The man is vile...
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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects likeTrident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

On 26/05/17 08:27, Brian Gaff wrote:
I am more disengaged with this election than normal, merely because the big
issue of health and social care seems to have nobody who can resolve it
without upping the taxes for all people and nobody wants to actually admit
this.
Brian

Well of course the answer is to stop supplying care, and stop taxing
people to supply it.

People can then supply what care they need out of their own pockets


--
Of what good are dead warriors? Warriors are those who desire battle
more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump
their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the
battle dance and dream of glory The good of dead warriors, Mother, is
that they are dead.
Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.


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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects likeTrident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

On 26/05/17 10:32, Tim Streater wrote:
In article . com, bm
wrote:

I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident
to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...abour-party-tr

ident-theresa-may-a7697916.html


The IRA-loving Leader of Labour is also, today, going to talk cock
about how these attacks are all our fault. Here is a partial response I
gleaned from Twitter:

Al Qaeda was founded in 1988 - 15 yrs before the Iraq invasion. They
also attacked the US on 9/11 - before the Iraq war. They also attacked
US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, killing hundreds of local
citizens. Before the Iraq war.

They bombed a hotel in Yemen in 1992. Before the Iraq war.

In more recent times ISIS - whose origins are an amalgamation of former
Saddam people with Al Qaeda - have most notably attacked France. Which
didn't fight in Iraq. They've also, amongst 100s of terrorist
atrocities, bombed Indonesia and Yemen, shot bloggers in Bangladesh and
chucked bars into a bar in Malaysia. Boko Haram (as ISIS offshoot)
kidnapped all those girls in Nigeria. None of these places fought in
Iraq.

Then there is the attempted genocide of the Yazidis, mass-murdering the
men and taking the women and girls away into slavery. I don't recall
them fighting in the Iraq war.

It's clear that Islamism was attacking people before the Iraq war, and
that these groups or their predecessors existed at least a decade
before 9/11. It's also clear that many of the countries they are
attacking had no links with the Iraq war.

Ends.

In short its clear that Jeremy Corbyn is an ignorant, politically
convenient, lying, opportunist ****.


So, nothing new there, then.

--
It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.

Thomas Sowell
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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

In article , Brian Gaff
wrote:
Well when the previous mp was actually in government he made a bit of a
mess, but was good locally. The new guy since 2015 has been very visible
but has managed to do nothing about the closure of banks in the area or
indeed stop the over development of high rise rich folks housing.


As an MP, he has not say in either of these matters. For the Banks, it's a
business decision; for housing, it is up to Kingston Council.


We have no Labour person who seems to know how to string two words
together either. The best person at least on policy is Green but stand a
as much chance of election as the Raving loony candidate.


I think, increasingly, its the person who knows how to find the skeletons
in cupboards of those he needs to affect change from which matters, and I
see nobody like that about. Brian


--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
The IRA-loving Leader of Labour is also, today, going to talk cock
about how these attacks are all our fault. Here is a partial response I
gleaned from Twitter:


Al Qaeda was founded in 1988 - 15 yrs before the Iraq invasion. They
also attacked the US on 9/11 - before the Iraq war. They also attacked
US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, killing hundreds of local
citizens. Before the Iraq war.


They bombed a hotel in Yemen in 1992. Before the Iraq war.


You really think the Iraq war the start of the west interfering in the
middle east?


Go and read some history.


Didn't the muslims invade Europe in the 8th century? and again (in the
East) somewhat later - only being turned back at Vienna (1683)

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article . com, bm
wrote:


I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to
concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...abour-party-tr
ident-theresa-may-a7697916.html


The IRA-loving Leader of Labour is also, today, going to talk cock
about how these attacks are all our fault. Here is a partial response I
gleaned from Twitter:


Al Qaeda was founded in 1988 - 15 yrs before the Iraq invasion. They
also attacked the US on 9/11 - before the Iraq war. They also attacked
US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, killing hundreds of local
citizens. Before the Iraq war.


They bombed a hotel in Yemen in 1992. Before the Iraq war.


In more recent times ISIS - whose origins are an amalgamation of former
Saddam people with Al Qaeda - have most notably attacked France. Which
didn't fight in Iraq.


[Snip]


They did in Iraq 1. They were also the Post-WW1 "administrator" in
Syria/Lebanon.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

In article , charles
wrote:
In article , Tim Streater
wrote:
In article . com, bm
wrote:


I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident
to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...abour-party-tr
ident-theresa-may-a7697916.html


The IRA-loving Leader of Labour is also, today, going to talk cock
about how these attacks are all our fault. Here is a partial response I
gleaned from Twitter:


Al Qaeda was founded in 1988 - 15 yrs before the Iraq invasion. They
also attacked the US on 9/11 - before the Iraq war. They also attacked
US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, killing hundreds of local
citizens. Before the Iraq war.


They bombed a hotel in Yemen in 1992. Before the Iraq war.


In more recent times ISIS - whose origins are an amalgamation of former
Saddam people with Al Qaeda - have most notably attacked France. Which
didn't fight in Iraq.


[Snip]



They did in Iraq 1. They were also the Post-WW1 "administrator" in
Syria/Lebanon.


and, I should have added, they had a colony in Algeria,

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England


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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects likeTrident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

On 26/05/17 12:01, charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
The IRA-loving Leader of Labour is also, today, going to talk cock
about how these attacks are all our fault. Here is a partial response I
gleaned from Twitter:


Al Qaeda was founded in 1988 - 15 yrs before the Iraq invasion. They
also attacked the US on 9/11 - before the Iraq war. They also attacked
US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, killing hundreds of local
citizens. Before the Iraq war.


They bombed a hotel in Yemen in 1992. Before the Iraq war.


You really think the Iraq war the start of the west interfering in the
middle east?


Go and read some history.


Didn't the muslims invade Europe in the 8th century? and again (in the
East) somewhat later - only being turned back at Vienna (1683)

Islam has always been a violent proselytising religion and such
philosophical and mystical insights it has (sufism) are either derived
from Judaism or from Zoroastrianism.

http://sufiway.org/about-us/the-origins-of-sufism

And as for the maths and science, that came from Greece and India

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathem...medieval_Islam

Islam is convenient excuse for hating people and enslaving them. Just
like Nazism was.

In short, like Socialism, Nazism, and Marxism, it provides the perfect
excuse to be a total utter ****, against people who don't believe in the
same **** as you do.

Compare with Christianity where even the crusades were only justified by
the need to let other faiths access the holy sites in the middle east,
not by a desire to eradicate other faiths.

Its a pity that saying the above may net me a knock on the door, but
saying that all white men are racists just nets you a slap on the wrist

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7368526.html

The truth is. Islam sucks big time, in the same way that Nazism sucks.

The hard right is not UKIP, It is ISIS.



--
It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.

Thomas Sowell
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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects likeTrident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

On 26/05/17 11:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 26/05/17 08:27, Brian Gaff wrote:
I am more disengaged with this election than normal, merely because
the big
issue of health and social care seems to have nobody who can resolve it
without upping the taxes for all people and nobody wants to actually
admit
this.
Brian

Well of course the answer is to stop supplying care, and stop taxing
people to supply it.

People can then supply what care they need out of their own pockets

We should have a one-off one-way charge, say £50,000 for volunteers to
take themselves out of the NHS system, and then pay a lower tax from
then on. If later on, they feel they need to 'contract back' to the NHS,
then tough ....

--
Adrian C
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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
The IRA-loving Leader of Labour is also, today, going to talk cock
about how these attacks are all our fault. Here is a partial response I
gleaned from Twitter:


Al Qaeda was founded in 1988 - 15 yrs before the Iraq invasion. They
also attacked the US on 9/11 - before the Iraq war. They also attacked
US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, killing hundreds of local
citizens. Before the Iraq war.


They bombed a hotel in Yemen in 1992. Before the Iraq war.


You really think the Iraq war the start of the west interfering in the
middle east?


Go and read some history.


Didn't the muslims invade Europe in the 8th century? and again (in the
East) somewhat later - only being turned back at Vienna (1683)


Oh indeed. But think you'll find it was the west needing to control 'our'
oil supplies which is the root cause in recent times.

--
*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays



"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
The IRA-loving Leader of Labour is also, today, going to talk cock
about how these attacks are all our fault. Here is a partial response I
gleaned from Twitter:


Al Qaeda was founded in 1988 - 15 yrs before the Iraq invasion. They
also attacked the US on 9/11 - before the Iraq war. They also attacked
US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, killing hundreds of local
citizens. Before the Iraq war.


They bombed a hotel in Yemen in 1992. Before the Iraq war.


You really think the Iraq war the start of the west interfering in the
middle east?


Go and read some history.


Didn't the muslims invade Europe in the 8th century? and again (in the
East) somewhat later - only being turned back at Vienna (1683)


Yes, but that was after the Crusades and Spain etc.

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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

Tim Streater posted
It's clear that Islamism was attacking people before the Iraq war, and
that these groups or their predecessors existed at least a decade
before 9/11. It's also clear that many of the countries they are
attacking had no links with the Iraq war.


It's even clearer that the 2003 Iraq war is, by a very long way, not the
only example of Western interference in the Middle East. It's merely the
most egregious.

--
Jack


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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
I also think we forget how much worse things were in just the 1960s,
never mind before that. People have come to expect miracles, and sadly
these are a little thin on the ground.


In general, people are living longer than in the '60s. And fewer children
look after their elderly parents.


NSS


If we spent anything close to the maximum per head other similar countries
do on health care, etc, the 'it simply can't be afforded' message from the
right wing might be valid.


Care to provide figures?


Otherwise, it just comes down to priorities.


Another NSS.

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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

"Rod Speed" wrote in message ...



"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
The IRA-loving Leader of Labour is also, today, going to talk cock
about how these attacks are all our fault. Here is a partial response
I
gleaned from Twitter:


Al Qaeda was founded in 1988 - 15 yrs before the Iraq invasion. They
also attacked the US on 9/11 - before the Iraq war. They also attacked
US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, killing hundreds of local
citizens. Before the Iraq war.


They bombed a hotel in Yemen in 1992. Before the Iraq war.


You really think the Iraq war the start of the west interfering in the
middle east?


Go and read some history.


Didn't the muslims invade Europe in the 8th century? and again (in the
East) somewhat later - only being turned back at Vienna (1683)


Yes, but that was after the Crusades and Spain etc.


**** off. Give Australia back to the indigenous.

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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

In article ,
Handsome Jack wrote:
Tim Streater posted
It's clear that Islamism was attacking people before the Iraq war, and
that these groups or their predecessors existed at least a decade
before 9/11. It's also clear that many of the countries they are
attacking had no links with the Iraq war.


It's even clearer that the 2003 Iraq war is, by a very long way, not the
only example of Western interference in the Middle East. It's merely the
most egregious.


It can be fun to analyse the views of these right wingers. We must spend
billions on having a nuclear deterrent so we can retaliate in event of an
attack.

We bomb various middle east countries causing the death of innocent
children, but that is perfectly OK as it is to a purpose. But that purpose
has never succeeded.

I'll leave it to others to think on from this.

--
*The more people I meet, the more I like my dog.

Dave Plowman London SW
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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
I suppose one could take the "leave them to it" PoV. So if the likes of
Saddam shell one of their own villages with poison gas we should say
nothing and do nothing.


You might ask just where Saddam got those shells from. He certainly didn't
make them and the guns himself. And of course any 'rebels' are also
supplied with arms by other countries. But then that's ok as there's a
buck to be made.


Well, I suppose talk is cheap so we could still
indulge in the expressions of outrage and light candles and hold
"vigils" and all the other meaningless vapourings. We could do that on
the one hand to satisfy our snowflake consciences while selling him
arms on the other.


And, of course, all the various hate campaigns in the meja against the non
white British have absolutely no effect on those it is directed at?

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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Default I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects likeTrident to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays

On 27/05/17 09:48, Richard wrote:
**** off. Give Australia back to the indigenous.



Sadly they were wiped out by the aborigines millions of years ago.


--
it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.

Vaclav Klaus


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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news

On 27/05/17 09:48, Richard wrote:
**** off. Give Australia back to the indigenous.



Sadly they were wiped out by the aborigines millions of years ago.


Yawn.

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Tim Streater posted
In article , Handsome Jack
wrote:

Tim Streater posted
It's clear that Islamism was attacking people before the Iraq war, and
that these groups or their predecessors existed at least a decade
before 9/11. It's also clear that many of the countries they are
attacking had no links with the Iraq war.


It's even clearer that the 2003 Iraq war is, by a very long way, not
the only example of Western interference in the Middle East. It's
merely the most egregious.


I suppose one could take the "leave them to it" PoV. So if the likes of
Saddam shell one of their own villages with poison gas we should say
nothing and do nothing.


That's what "we" [i.e. Western governments] did when this gassing
happened in 1998 (IIRC). Until 15 years later it became convenient to
excavate it as a casus belii for launching a war that was actually
conducted in the Western powers' economic interests.

Well, I suppose talk is cheap so we could still
indulge in the expressions of outrage and light candles and hold
"vigils" and all the other meaningless vapourings. We could do that on
the one hand to satisfy our snowflake consciences


That's your suggestion, not mine. If you're saying it's a stupid thing
to do - well I agree, which is why I've never suggested it.

while selling him
arms on the other.


Selling who arms? What are you on about?

--
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Tim Streater posted
In article , Handsome Jack
wrote:

Tim Streater posted
I suppose one could take the "leave them to it" PoV. So if the likes of
Saddam shell one of their own villages with poison gas we should say
nothing and do nothing.


That's what "we" [i.e. Western governments] did when this gassing
happened in 1998 (IIRC). Until 15 years later it became convenient to
excavate it as a casus belii for launching a war that was actually
conducted in the Western powers' economic interests.


1988. So you think, perhaps that "we" should have invaded Iraq in 1988
rather than 2003?


No, I don't think "we" should have invaded Iraq at all. "We" should not
be intervening in the Middle East at all, except through diplomacy and
negotiation.

As you are probably aware, the gassing stuff was not the real reason for
the 2003 invasion anyway.

Well, I suppose talk is cheap so we could still
indulge in the expressions of outrage and light candles and hold
"vigils" and all the other meaningless vapourings. We could do that on
the one hand to satisfy our snowflake consciences


That's your suggestion, not mine. If you're saying it's a stupid thing
to do - well I agree, which is why I've never suggested it.

while selling him
arms on the other.


Selling who arms? What are you on about?


Saddam. Who else?


Oh. I don't see what that's got to do with it.

--
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In article ,
Handsome Jack wrote:
1988. So you think, perhaps that "we" should have invaded Iraq in 1988
rather than 2003?


No, I don't think "we" should have invaded Iraq at all. "We" should not
be intervening in the Middle East at all, except through diplomacy and
negotiation.


It's interesting that 'we' seem to have such an interest in middle east
countries' human rights or whatever - even to the point of going to war
with them to protect those human rights. Or that's what the politicians
tells us. But don't consider any form of direct intervention in the lots
of other countries round the world with equally appalling human rights.

So fair to assume we only take action when it seems to be in the UK's
commercial interests.

--
*Never test the depth of the water with both feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Handsome Jack wrote:
1988. So you think, perhaps that "we" should have invaded Iraq in 1988
rather than 2003?


No, I don't think "we" should have invaded Iraq at all. "We" should not
be intervening in the Middle East at all, except through diplomacy and
negotiation.


It's interesting that 'we' seem to have such an interest in middle east
countries' human rights or whatever - even to the point of going to war
with them to protect those human rights. Or that's what the politicians
tells us. But don't consider any form of direct intervention in the lots
of other countries round the world with equally appalling human rights.

So fair to assume we only take action when it seems to be in the UK's
commercial interests.

--
*Never test the depth of the water with both feet.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.



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Tim Streater posted
In article , Handsome Jack
wrote:

No, I don't think "we" should have invaded Iraq at all. "We" should
not be intervening in the Middle East at all, except through diplomacy
and negotiation.


Or anywhere, then. So I guess we should disband the UN, then, as those
interfering buggers keep interfering.


Intervention via the UNSC may sometimes be justifiable, certainly
preferable to intervention by self-seeking political alliances.

Like in East Timor, f'rinstance (not in the ME, I know, but pertinent),
where the "west" (and the UN) pushed to stop the genocide of people
there by Indonesia. Which led *directly* to the Bali night club
bombing.


I'm not clear what point you are making here.

Oh and by the way, FYI. There are certain people you cannot negotiate
with. ISIS and Al Qaeda being examples. Oe perhaps you know better.


I don't know whether you can negotiate with ISIS or Al-Qaed or not. Why
do you think you know?

--
Jack
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In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Or anywhere, then. So I guess we should disband the UN, then, as those
interfering buggers keep interfering.


Absolutely. If there is no point in a united Europe, even less point in
the UN.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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On 28/05/17 15:18, Handsome Jack wrote:
I don't know whether you can negotiate with ISIS or Al-Qaed or not. Why
do you think you know?


Negotiation is a sign of an advanced cultural viewpoint.

In primitive 'schoolyard' codes its simply a sign of weakness.

--
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On 28/05/17 16:24, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Or anywhere, then. So I guess we should disband the UN, then, as those
interfering buggers keep interfering.


Absolutely. If there is no point in a united Europe, even less point in
the UN.


Poor analogy. Last time I looked, the UN was not seeking "ever closer
union". Neither was it making laws and foisting them on us.

What do you think the IPCC is trying to do then?

--
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look exactly the same afterwards."

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On 26/05/2017 10:32, Tim Streater wrote:
In article . com, bm
wrote:

I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident
to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...abour-party-tr

ident-theresa-may-a7697916.html


The IRA-loving Leader of Labour is also, today, going to talk cock
about how these attacks are all our fault. Here is a partial response I
gleaned from Twitter:

Al Qaeda was founded in 1988 - 15 yrs before the Iraq invasion. They
also attacked the US on 9/11 - before the Iraq war. They also attacked
US Embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, killing hundreds of local
citizens. Before the Iraq war.

They bombed a hotel in Yemen in 1992. Before the Iraq war.

In more recent times ISIS - whose origins are an amalgamation of former
Saddam people with Al Qaeda - have most notably attacked France. Which
didn't fight in Iraq. They've also, amongst 100s of terrorist
atrocities, bombed Indonesia and Yemen, shot bloggers in Bangladesh and
chucked bars into a bar in Malaysia. Boko Haram (as ISIS offshoot)
kidnapped all those girls in Nigeria. None of these places fought in
Iraq.

Then there is the attempted genocide of the Yazidis, mass-murdering the
men and taking the women and girls away into slavery. I don't recall
them fighting in the Iraq war.

It's clear that Islamism was attacking people before the Iraq war, and
that these groups or their predecessors existed at least a decade
before 9/11. It's also clear that many of the countries they are
attacking had no links with the Iraq war.

Ends.

ye reap wot ye sow


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On 26/05/2017 11:46, JoeJoe wrote:
On 26/05/2017 10:32, Tim Streater wrote:
In article . com, bm
wrote:

I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident
to concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...abour-party-tr

ident-theresa-may-a7697916.html


The IRA-loving Leader of Labour is ....


Also invited Hezbollah and Hammas (AKA as Islamic Jihad) to the House of
Parliament (the famous "my friends" speech). Hammas, incidentally, were
unable to attend as they were busy carrying out very similar attacks to
the one in Manchester on buses/restaurants/nightclubs/etc in Israel at
the time.

Good thing they halted campaigning for a couple of days giving him the
chance to go and pay his condolences to the attacker's family as "they
suffer just as much".

The man is vile...


wot a dick head you are.
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On Friday, 26 May 2017 01:32:43 UTC+1, bm wrote:
I'm glad Jeremy Corbyn is putting aside trivial subjects like Trident to
concentrate on what really matters - bank holidays
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...-a7697916.html


Don't you understand?
Both parties are offering bribes to the electorate.
Bribes we can't afford.
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On Friday, 26 May 2017 09:36:57 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
On 26/05/17 08:27, Brian Gaff wrote:
I am more disengaged with this election than normal, merely because the big
issue of health and social care seems to have nobody who can resolve it
without upping the taxes for all people and nobody wants to actually admit
this.


Yep.

Rather than all this prime time debating ******** (which I applaud May
for shunning), they need to do a well through out party political
broadcast, one for each main party, with slides and numbers explaining
the numbers.

I think you'll find that much of the electorate aren't as stupid as the
politicians like to pretend they are and if it was a case of:

"We can improve policing, healthcare and education - but it will cost X.
We can borrow Y and tax Z, and we propose that Y and Z should be...
And if we borrow too much Y with no plan on how to pay it back then
we'll have rampant inflation and it will affect trade in this way"

Then people could make an informed choice.

All we have is:

Corbyn - £250b shortfall, mostly borrowing and some token taxation
against the toffs.

May: No spending and bugger the homeless etc.

Fallon: I don't hate gays, not really... Can I get down from this fence
now, my arse is starting to hurt?


If you're homeless, it's your own fault.
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On 28/05/17 18:57, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 28/05/17 16:24, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
Or anywhere, then. So I guess we should disband the UN, then, as those
interfering buggers keep interfering.

Absolutely. If there is no point in a united Europe, even less point in
the UN.

Poor analogy. Last time I looked, the UN was not seeking "ever closer
union". Neither was it making laws and foisting them on us.

What do you think the IPCC is trying to do then?


That's a treaty, if anything, not a law. All the twaddle known as
"International Law" is actually just treaties. But I agree that the
IPCC needs a knee in the balls, metaphorically.

I said 'trying' to do. Not 'doing'


--
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community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

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"Richard" wrote in message
news


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

In article ,
Handsome Jack wrote:
1988. So you think, perhaps that "we" should have invaded Iraq in 1988
rather than 2003?


No, I don't think "we" should have invaded Iraq at all. "We" should not
be intervening in the Middle East at all, except through diplomacy and
negotiation.


It's interesting that 'we' seem to have such an interest in middle east
countries' human rights or whatever - even to the point of going to war
with them to protect those human rights. Or that's what the politicians
tells us. But don't consider any form of direct intervention in the lots
of other countries round the world with equally appalling human rights.


So fair to assume we only take action when it seems to be in the UK's
commercial interests.


Thats not true of Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Bosnia, etc etc etc.

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