In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:

now that the flashing is no longer determined by the vaguaries of a
bimetallic strip and heater

But the sound of the flasher unit lives on, presumably as a .wav file?

One thing that I'd like. A small cheap computer with lots of 12v inputs,
each one of which would produce a user choice noise and or allow you to
generate your own. So you could integrate flasher warning, lights on
warning, reversing sensors, etc all to one speaker (or even into the ICE)

--
*Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 25/05/17 10:23, newshound wrote:
On 5/25/2017 12:34 AM, Michael Chare wrote:
On 24/05/2017 23:16, bm wrote:
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news Michael Chare formulated the question :
I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really
the
case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two
thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and
CAN-L
bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much
thicker wires?

The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket
easy!

Actually, it makes it easier and it can be more clever. One thick
wire as
the main supply, then thin wires can be used to pick up the signals.
The
trailer lights can be monitored and issues fed as data down the
can-bus.

It's all far too clever IMHO. Take the seat sensors, if I bung a
shopping
bag on the passenger seat the "fasten seat belt" command/bleeper goes
barmy.
I realise it's all designed for dumbarses but c'mon.
With other probs, you take it to a dealer who sucks his teeth and
hasn't a
clue. Whatever the diagnostics tell him it gets changed, charged for,
and
still has the prob.
The poor back-street garage who i've used for 52 years is totally
buggered.
Progress/profit.
The day we get driverless cars i'll be hopefully dead.


I find I now have a car that is supposed to start when you press a
button and the key is in the car. However instead of starting I got a
message in front of me saying "Savelock RTFM". (Well perhaps without
the expletive.)


Reminds me of a hired manual Renault (iirc) a few years ago. Required
you to depress the clutch (or was it the clutch and brake?) before it
would start. Spend five minutes waiting for the breakdown emergency
number to find the answer, even though it had an "information" screen.
No manuals left in hire car, of course.

I didn't know Apple were porting their software to cars..,.


--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
A failed LED in an array won't make much difference to the function of
the light, but a failed bulb, which is far more probable, will.

Depends how they are wired. You may well have several in series.

--
*Never slap a man who's chewing tobacco *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman wrote:

Brian Gaff wrote:

That is because the manufacturers don't want joe public doing any job,
instead they want over priced specialists to do it.

Good luck finding a specialist who can do anything other than just fit a
new bit.

At recent MOT got an advisory for faded rear indicators, I asked whether
that meant the plastics of the lens cluster would need replacing, he
said "no, they'll just dip them in orange paint" mentioned it to garage
next time and they wanted £70 per side to replace them.

AFAIK all the stop/tail/turn lights are LED, so do they really fit
painted white LEDs rather than yellow LEDs?

"newshound" wrote in message
...
I find I now have a car that is supposed to start when you press a button
and the key is in the car. However instead of starting I got a message in
front of me saying "Savelock RTFM". (Well perhaps without the expletive.)


Reminds me of a hired manual Renault (iirc) a few years ago. Required you
to depress the clutch (or was it the clutch and brake?) before it would
start. Spend five minutes waiting for the breakdown emergency number to
find the answer, even though it had an "information" screen. No manuals
left in hire car, of course.

Our Honda needs clutch to be pressed. There is a logo which could be just
about anything, but might conceivably show clutch pedal next to brake pedal.

The problem with icons instead of words is working out what the icon
depicts. Once you've worked out "that's the clutch pedal" then working out
what it's trying to tell you (press the clutch to enable starter motor) is
trivial. I think I have "WTF is that icon supposed to show?" icon blindness!

Second problem is that you can't look up an icon in an index, whereas you
can look up a word (even in a foreign language) providing the index is
alphabetical. Also, it's difficult to describe an icon verbally (over phone
or in an email) when asking for help.

A colleague of mine borrowed his boss's car to go to a meeting off-site, and
couldn't work out how to engage reverse. He tried lifting a collar (there
wasn't one), pressing against strong spring, pulling the lever upwards away
from floor (it didn't move). Secret was to push lever towards floor and
simultaneously twist it slightly to overcome the interlock - just too clever
by three quarters.

I always have to remember that on my Peugeot you lift a collar and both the
lever to the left of first, whereas on our Honda you push against a stronger
spring to the opposite side of the gate to the right of sixth. And remember
that in my car you can engage reverse while the car is still rolling
forwards slightly (but don't lift the clutch!) whereas on the Honda the car
has to come to a complete halt before you can engage reverse.

On 25/05/2017 09:29, Andy Burns wrote:
Nightjar wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Also the chips start to do snazzy things such as dimming one side's
front running lamps when indicating or providing the "moving pulse" on
newer indicators

I have also seen running rabbit style indicators, where the
yellow LEDS light in sequence, moving towards the direction of turn.

That's what I meant by the "moving pulse" I think Audi call them
"dynamic indicators"

[also] "sweeping" indicators.

And do the French require you to carry spares for them?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Dave Plowman wrote:

Nightjar wrote:

A failed LED in an array won't make much difference to the function of
the light, but a failed bulb, which is far more probable, will.

Depends how they are wired. You may well have several in series.

The first wave of buses with LED brake lights seemed to suffer quite
badly, but it always seemed to be the individual LEDs in the matrix
failing, rather than whole rows/columns of them, I suppose someone could
have been clever and distributed strings in a chaotic pattern.

I haven't noticed the same problem on the next wave of buses that have
replaced them.

On 25-May-17 10:48 AM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
A failed LED in an array won't make much difference to the function of
the light, but a failed bulb, which is far more probable, will.

Depends how they are wired. You may well have several in series.


When a car drove into the back of me, it was only a single LED that
failed to light. Also, unlike incandescent light bulbs, even with the
red lens broken, the LEDs still showed a red light.

--
--

Colin Bignell

On 25/05/2017 10:09, NY wrote:
"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
En el artÃ*culo ,
newshound escribió:

Being positioned very close to bright LED
running lights does not help in other cases, too (so dimming these seems
an excellent idea to me).

I spotted a car the other day that turned off the running lights on that
side while the indicator was flashing. It certainly worked to make the
indicator more visible.

My Peugeot 508 has three sets of front running lights each side. When
indicating the centre set turns amber and flashes. I have no idea if the
others dim.

Mike

Dave Plowman (News) laid this down on his screen :
One thing that I'd like. A small cheap computer with lots of 12v inputs,
each one of which would produce a user choice noise and or allow you to
generate your own. So you could integrate flasher warning, lights on
warning, reversing sensors, etc all to one speaker (or even into the ICE)

Mine uses one instrument panel mounted speaker for all of its range of
noises. The noises are all triggered from the can-bus data, rather than
individual wires.

NY has brought this to us :
And remember that in my car you can engage reverse while the car is still
rolling forwards slightly (but don't lift the clutch!) whereas on the Honda
the car has to come to a complete halt before you can engage reverse.

Synchromesh allows you engage reverse with the car moving forwards.

Andy Burns explained on 25/05/2017 :
At recent MOT got an advisory for faded rear indicators, I asked whether that
meant the plastics of the lens cluster would need replacing, he said "no,
they'll just dip them in orange paint" mentioned it to garage next time and
they wanted £70 per side to replace them.

AFAIK all the stop/tail/turn lights are LED, so do they really fit painted
white LEDs rather than yellow LEDs?

They don't need to paint LED's they come in a variety of colours.

The yellow paint they used to sell for painting your headlights, to go
to France, used to solve lens and lamps where the colour had come off.

Muddymike wrote:

When indicating the centre set turns amber and flashes. I have no
idea if the others dim.
That's what huge plate-glass windows in supermarket entrances are for,
isn't it?

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

At recent MOT got an advisory for faded rear indicators

AFAIK all the stop/tail/turn lights are LED, so do they really fit painted
white LEDs rather than yellow LEDs?

They don't need to paint LED's they come in a variety of colours.

But if yellow LEDs are used, how do they fade?

Mark Allread formulated on Thursday :
On Thu, 25 May 2017 09:29:03 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Brian Gaff formulated the question :
However the current drain of modern lights is one heck of a lot less
than a bulb and arguably, less likely to fail without the driver being
alerted via a snazzy dasboard icon.

More than just snazzy, the system can be very practical, very useful. I
can plug the caravan in and know all the car and all the caravan's road
lighting is functioning. If there were a failure on route, I would know
immediately and know precisely which lamp had failed.

They don't even have to completely fail, a poor connection or flickering
lamp is enough to trigger a fault condition.

Just wondering - which car has that on? Im aware of the ones that
register a failed indicator bulb but not ones that show that trailer/
caravan road lighting/reversing/fog lights are working.

As an aside I watched a 17 plate Volvo tractor/trailer unit having its
lights checked at a service station the other day. Driver stood at the
back with a remote control and then went through the checks for all the
trailer lights. Fascinating to watch them all going off and on in
sequence including the side marker lights.

Rover 75. If a trailer lamp has failed, it shows a graphic of a caravan
in the matrix display, with a description of exactly which actual lamp
has not responded properly. It has only once been triggered in earnest,
other when I first installed it and checked it out. That when a caravan
indicator lamp suffered a poor connection at the lampholder. On
physicay checking it, it was working fine, but the system had spotted
and reported the slightly poor connection at the lamp.

I always used to check the lights were all working on the trailer
before departing on a trip, but now I don't bother - the automatic
system checks much more thoroughly than I could manage and its
monitoring is constant.

On 24/05/2017 20:50, Michael Chare wrote:
I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the
case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two
thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L
bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much
thicker wires?

The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy!



There's also the subtle point that one thick cable (my car also has a
fusebox in the boot) and plug in modules can cope with all the possible
factory options without having unneeded wires in the loom, or even worse
a custom loom.

Plus the ability for the BCM to substitute a failed lamp for an
alternative is quite useful. If sometimes confusing

And I'd argue that as long as you are using the right parts, it makes
wiring a trailer socket many times easier...though it obviously costs
more than using generic adapters

Andy Burns has brought this to us :
But if yellow LEDs are used, how do they fade?

They cannot fade, unless the LED's were actually painted, but you can
buy yellow LED's so why paint them?

Maybe made in white for a different market, then painted for the UK
market.

I had a SAAB which had clear lens's, sprayed yellow on the inside to
suit the UK market.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

But if yellow LEDs are used, how do they fade?

They cannot fade, unless the LED's were actually painted, but you can
buy yellow LED's so why paint them?

That's what I was asking, why would they do that?

I had a SAAB which had clear lens's, sprayed yellow on the inside to
suit the UK market.

I've seen clear lenses with yellow incandescent bulbs, years ago

Lee has brought this to us :
Plus the ability for the BCM to substitute a failed lamp for an alternative
is quite useful. If sometimes confusing

Mine can substitute a brake light fed on a lower voltage for a failed
tail light.


And I'd argue that as long as you are using the right parts, it makes wiring
a trailer socket many times easier...though it obviously costs more than
using generic adapters

Using the correct BMW gubbins, I had to run a single HD cable from the
engine fusebox to the rear, then a data cable from the module to the
LSM which monitors the entire car and trailer's road lighting system.

On Thu, 25 May 2017 10:23:18 +0100, newshound wrote:

Reminds me of a hired manual Renault (iirc) a few years ago. Required
you to depress the clutch (or was it the clutch and brake?) before it
would start. Spend five minutes waiting for the breakdown emergency
number to find the answer, even though it had an "information" screen.
No manuals left in hire car, of course.

My S-Max says 'Press clutch to start'!

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Thu, 25 May 2017 11:03:27 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:

Brian Gaff wrote:

That is because the manufacturers don't want joe public doing any job,
instead they want over priced specialists to do it.

Good luck finding a specialist who can do anything other than just fit
a new bit.

At recent MOT got an advisory for faded rear indicators, I asked whether
that meant the plastics of the lens cluster would need replacing, he
said "no, they'll just dip them in orange paint" mentioned it to garage
next time and they wanted £70 per side to replace them.

Replace the bulbs with orange ones?


--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 25/05/2017 11:33, Andy Burns wrote:
Muddymike wrote:

When indicating the centre set turns amber and flashes. I have no
idea if the others dim.
That's what huge plate-glass windows in supermarket entrances are for,
isn't it?

:-)

Mike

Bob Eager wrote:

Replace the bulbs with orange ones?

Having just been and prodded it, the indicators aren't LEDs (unlike the
tail/brake lights) so it is just an amber PY21W bulb, where the paint
has started to crazed away.

I can easily get replacement painted incandescent, I wonder about LED
replacement, this looks right to me

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/amber-LED/252372043619

says it's CANbus ready (which I think usually means a resistor to draw
sufficient power to fool it) and I require the offset pins, yet the eBay
compatibility checker says not for my vehicle, what could be wrong?

On Thu, 25 May 2017 11:37:11 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Mark Allread formulated on Thursday :
On Thu, 25 May 2017 09:29:03 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

More than just snazzy, the system can be very practical, very useful.
I can plug the caravan in and know all the car and all the caravan's
road lighting is functioning. If there were a failure on route, I
would know immediately and know precisely which lamp had failed.

They don't even have to completely fail, a poor connection or
flickering lamp is enough to trigger a fault condition.

Just wondering - which car has that on? Im aware of the ones that
register a failed indicator bulb but not ones that show that trailer/
caravan road lighting/reversing/fog lights are working.

Rover 75. If a trailer lamp has failed, it shows a graphic of a caravan
in the matrix display, with a description of exactly which actual lamp
has not responded properly.

Thanks - I thought that only checked the indicators on the trailer and
not the rest of the lights.

It was remarkably advanced for its time to do all.

On 25/05/2017 10:15, newshound wrote:
On 5/24/2017 9:45 PM, NY wrote:

I too think that modern cars' indicators are far less conspicuous,
especially in daylight when the light reflected off the clear "glass"
of the cluster makes it harder to see the slightly brighter "on" phase
of the flashing light.

Glad it is not just me!

Perhaps what we need is some sort of European Union where collective
benefits (like USB charging on phones) can be worked out

....enabling hacking by a rogue charger as USB plugs can pass data as
well as power.

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote:

newshound wrote:

Perhaps what we need is some sort of European Union where collective
benefits (like USB charging on phones) can be worked out

...enabling hacking by a rogue charger as USB plugs can pass data as
well as power.

If you will go with chargers of dubious reputation, you should carry a
USB condom ... http://syncstop.com/

In article ,
Max Demian wrote:
On 25/05/2017 10:15, newshound wrote:
On 5/24/2017 9:45 PM, NY wrote:

I too think that modern cars' indicators are far less conspicuous,
especially in daylight when the light reflected off the clear "glass"
of the cluster makes it harder to see the slightly brighter "on" phase
of the flashing light.

Glad it is not just me!

Perhaps what we need is some sort of European Union where collective
benefits (like USB charging on phones) can be worked out

...enabling hacking by a rogue charger as USB plugs can pass data as
well as power.

last month i wasa new bus in London which included USB charging points in
front of every seat - or were they sniffing for information.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

But if yellow LEDs are used, how do they fade?

They cannot fade, unless the LED's were actually painted, but you can
buy yellow LED's so why paint them?

That's what I was asking, why would they do that?

I had a SAAB which had clear lens's, sprayed yellow on the inside to
suit the UK market.

I've seen clear lenses with yellow incandescent bulbs, years ago

Mine has those, from 2014.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
Lee has brought this to us :
Plus the ability for the BCM to substitute a failed lamp for an
alternative is quite useful. If sometimes confusing

Mine can substitute a brake light fed on a lower voltage for a failed tail
light.


And I'd argue that as long as you are using the right parts, it makes
wiring a trailer socket many times easier...though it obviously costs
more than using generic adapters

Using the correct BMW gubbins, I had to run a single HD cable from the
engine fusebox to the rear, then a data cable from the module to the LSM
which monitors the entire car and trailer's road lighting system.

Totally OT IMHO.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) laid this down on his screen :
One thing that I'd like. A small cheap computer with lots of 12v inputs,
each one of which would produce a user choice noise and or allow you to
generate your own. So you could integrate flasher warning, lights on
warning, reversing sensors, etc all to one speaker (or even into the ICE)

Mine uses one instrument panel mounted speaker for all of its range of
noises. The noises are all triggered from the can-bus data, rather than
individual wires.

I was more thinking of how to do it on the old Rover which has 'analogue'
wiring. But plenty of things that buzz or click too as warnings. Big
problem being you can't easily adjust the sound levels. The indicator
warning (for example) is to quiet. The reversing sensor one too loud.

--
*We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
At recent MOT got an advisory for faded rear indicators, I asked whether
that meant the plastics of the lens cluster would need replacing, he
said "no, they'll just dip them in orange paint" mentioned it to garage
next time and they wanted £70 per side to replace them.

Years ago, my Bedford van failed with the tail lights pink. ;-)
A bit of red lighting gel fitted inside the light sorted it for free.

--
*Hard work pays off in the future. Laziness pays off now *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Max Demian wrote:
On 25/05/2017 10:15, newshound wrote:
On 5/24/2017 9:45 PM, NY wrote:

I too think that modern cars' indicators are far less conspicuous,
especially in daylight when the light reflected off the clear "glass"
of the cluster makes it harder to see the slightly brighter "on" phase
of the flashing light.

Glad it is not just me!

Perhaps what we need is some sort of European Union where collective
benefits (like USB charging on phones) can be worked out

...enabling hacking by a rogue charger as USB plugs can pass data as
well as power.

Does my wall wart USB power supply for my phone pass on data to the leccy
company? ;-)

--
*What happens if you get scared half to death twice? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
charles wrote:
last month i wasa new bus in London which included USB charging points
in front of every seat - or were they sniffing for information.

If it comes from the same maker as the air con, expect it not to work. ;-)

Just been on a Boris bus which was sweltering hot.

--
*I yell because I care

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Mark Allread explained on 25/05/2017 :
Thanks - I thought that only checked the indicators on the trailer and
not the rest of the lights.

No it checks every lamp.

It was remarkably advanced for its time to do all.

It uses all BMW electronics, engine and gearbox.

Bob Eager was thinking very hard :
Replace the bulbs with orange ones?

Some used an inner coloured lens, with clear outer and clear lamp.

bm explained :

Using the correct BMW gubbins, I had to run a single HD cable from the
engine fusebox to the rear, then a data cable from the module to the LSM
which monitors the entire car and trailer's road lighting system.

Totally OT IMHO.

What do you mean off topic?

Or did you really mean OTT (over the top)?

On 25/05/2017 11:07, NY wrote:

I always have to remember that on my Peugeot you lift a collar and both
the lever to the left of first, whereas on our Honda you push against a
stronger spring to the opposite side of the gate to the right of sixth.
And remember that in my car you can engage reverse while the car is
still rolling forwards slightly (but don't lift the clutch!) whereas on
the Honda the car has to come to a complete halt before you can engage
reverse.

The lever does at least normally have a little picture to tell you which
side and back/forward you need to go.

on 25/05/2017, Dave Plowman (News) supposed :
I was more thinking of how to do it on the old Rover which has 'analogue'
wiring. But plenty of things that buzz or click too as warnings. Big
problem being you can't easily adjust the sound levels. The indicator
warning (for example) is to quiet. The reversing sensor one too loud.

In the day, I would quieten sounders which were too loud by sticking
bluetack over them and the ones which were too quiet I would make a
baffle for and/or make a hole in the trim. Baffle as in tube or
similar, anything which makes the air path between front and rear of
the part which moves, longer.

Remember those plug in speakers for small transistor radios, where the
speaker was fitted inside a cardboard tube?

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
bm explained :
Using the correct BMW gubbins, I had to run a single HD cable from the
engine fusebox to the rear, then a data cable from the module to the LSM
which monitors the entire car and trailer's road lighting system.

Totally OT IMHO.

What do you mean off topic?

Or did you really mean OTT (over the top)?
LOL, sorry yes, OTT.

On 5/25/2017 9:03 AM, Max Demian wrote:
On 25/05/2017 10:15, newshound wrote:

Perhaps what we need is some sort of European Union where collective
benefits (like USB charging on phones) can be worked out

...enabling hacking by a rogue charger as USB plugs can pass data as
well as power.

There are charge-only cables (and adapters) readily available.