bm wrote :
"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
bm explained :
Using the correct BMW gubbins, I had to run a single HD cable from the
engine fusebox to the rear, then a data cable from the module to the LSM
which monitors the entire car and trailer's road lighting system.

Totally OT IMHO.

What do you mean off topic?

Or did you really mean OTT (over the top)?
LOL, sorry yes, OTT.

It is a very handy feature, you cannot beat knowing all your lights are
working and working properly. You can go round and manually check them,
they can be working, but on the road one can be flickering - modern
systems will detect that and warn you. The first car I had which had a
basic lamp failure system was back in the 80's.

On 25-May-17 11:07 AM, Robin wrote:
....
And do the French require you to carry spares for them?

They dropped the requirement to carry spare bulbs a long time ago.

--
--

Colin Bignell

Andy Burns wrote:

I can easily get replacement painted incandescent, I wonder about LED
replacement

As the bulbs haven't blown, just a bit pale, I've ordered a couple of
LED replacements on the slow boat from China, what E markings?

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
last month i wasa new bus in London which included USB charging points
in front of every seat - or were they sniffing for information.

If it comes from the same maker as the air con, expect it not to work. ;-)

Just been on a Boris bus which was sweltering hot.

They were Irish made.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Thu, 25 May 2017 17:01:14 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

On 25-May-17 11:07 AM, Robin wrote:
...
And do the French require you to carry spares for them?

They dropped the requirement to carry spare bulbs a long time ago.

But added the requirement for a breath testing kit (alcohol not garlic)

--

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 25 May 2017 17:01:14 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

On 25-May-17 11:07 AM, Robin wrote:
...
And do the French require you to carry spares for them?

They dropped the requirement to carry spare bulbs a long time ago.

But added the requirement for a breath testing kit (alcohol not garlic)

Are you expected to test yourself each time you drive, or is it for the
police to test you if they stop you?

On 25-May-17 5:55 PM, The Other Mike wrote:
On Thu, 25 May 2017 17:01:14 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

On 25-May-17 11:07 AM, Robin wrote:
...
And do the French require you to carry spares for them?

They dropped the requirement to carry spare bulbs a long time ago.

But added the requirement for a breath testing kit (alcohol not garlic)


That has also, effectively, been dropped. Although they made it a legal
requirement to carry two, they did not introduce any penalty for not
carrying them and have no plans to do so.

--
--

Colin Bignell

On 25/05/2017 16:02, S Viemeister wrote:
On 5/25/2017 9:03 AM, Max Demian wrote:
On 25/05/2017 10:15, newshound wrote:

Perhaps what we need is some sort of European Union where collective
benefits (like USB charging on phones) can be worked out

...enabling hacking by a rogue charger as USB plugs can pass data as
well as power.

There are charge-only cables (and adapters) readily available.

Do people know about these? Are they labelled? (I bought a couple of
Bluetooth devices from Argos supplied with cables which are, in effect,
charge only - but they just look like ordinary USB cables.)

--
Max Demian

On Thu, 25 May 2017 18:35:51 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 25 May 2017 17:01:14 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

On 25-May-17 11:07 AM, Robin wrote:
...
And do the French require you to carry spares for them?

They dropped the requirement to carry spare bulbs a long time ago.

But added the requirement for a breath testing kit (alcohol not garlic)

Are you expected to test yourself each time you drive, or is it for the
police to test you if they stop you?

It's France, so expect anything. Maybe it is to test yourself, it's just an
addtional expense for no real gain.

I'd expect the police to carry their own significantly more accurate portable
testers and maybe have evidential standard testing back at base like in the UK,
but having only ever been roadside breath tested in Australia I wouldn't know
(zero result, marginallly busted a speed limit when I missed a sign)
--

On Thu, 25 May 2017 17:51:49 +0100, charles wrote:

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
last month i wasa new bus in London which included USB charging points
in front of every seat - or were they sniffing for information.

If it comes from the same maker as the air con, expect it not to work. ;-)

Just been on a Boris bus which was sweltering hot.

They were Irish made.

Northern not the Republic.
--

On 25/05/2017 14:03, Max Demian wrote:
On 25/05/2017 10:15, newshound wrote:
On 5/24/2017 9:45 PM, NY wrote:

I too think that modern cars' indicators are far less conspicuous,
especially in daylight when the light reflected off the clear "glass"
of the cluster makes it harder to see the slightly brighter "on"
phase of the flashing light.

Glad it is not just me!

Perhaps what we need is some sort of European Union where collective
benefits (like USB charging on phones) can be worked out

...enabling hacking by a rogue charger as USB plugs can pass data as
well as power.

The charger may, but you use a power only cable, there cannot be any
data transfer.

SteveW

On 25/05/2017 11:45, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Lee has brought this to us :
Plus the ability for the BCM to substitute a failed lamp for an
alternative is quite useful. If sometimes confusing

Mine can substitute a brake light fed on a lower voltage for a failed
tail light.

More likely it is using pulse-width modulation - far easier for digital
and power electronics than varying the voltage.

SteveW

On 5/25/2017 4:32 PM, Max Demian wrote:
On 25/05/2017 16:02, S Viemeister wrote:
On 5/25/2017 9:03 AM, Max Demian wrote:
On 25/05/2017 10:15, newshound wrote:

Perhaps what we need is some sort of European Union where collective
benefits (like USB charging on phones) can be worked out

...enabling hacking by a rogue charger as USB plugs can pass data as
well as power.

There are charge-only cables (and adapters) readily available.

Do people know about these? Are they labelled? (I bought a couple of
Bluetooth devices from Argos supplied with cables which are, in effect,
charge only - but they just look like ordinary USB cables.)

Well, I'm not particularly 'techie', but _I_ know about them...
I bought mine through Amazon - just the adapters, as I already have
enough standard cables floating around.

Bob Eager wrote
newshound wrote

Reminds me of a hired manual Renault (iirc) a few years ago.
Required you to depress the clutch (or was it the clutch and
brake?) before it would start. Spend five minutes waiting for
the breakdown emergency number to find the answer, even
though it had an "information" screen.

No manuals left in hire car, of course.

My S-Max says 'Press clutch to start'!

You do have to wonder why they dont all do something
as obvious as that. Presumably its an invention thing and
takes a while before everyone notices its the best way.

Rod Speed wrote
Bob Eager wrote
newshound wrote

Reminds me of a hired manual Renault (iirc) a few years ago.
Required you to depress the clutch (or was it the clutch and
brake?) before it would start. Spend five minutes waiting for
the breakdown emergency number to find the answer, even
though it had an "information" screen.

No manuals left in hire car, of course.

My S-Max says 'Press clutch to start'!

You do have to wonder why they dont all do something
as obvious as that. Presumably its an invention thing and
takes a while before everyone notices its the best way.

Tho you do have to wonder, with fully computer controlled
cars, why they dont just whine that the car is in gear if you
try to start it with it in gear and even allow you to signal
that you want to do that anyway if you are stalled on a level
crossing and need to use the starter to get it off the rail line
before the train shows up etc.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Bob Eager wrote
newshound wrote

Reminds me of a hired manual Renault (iirc) a few years ago.
Required you to depress the clutch (or was it the clutch and
brake?) before it would start. Spend five minutes waiting for
the breakdown emergency number to find the answer, even
though it had an "information" screen.

No manuals left in hire car, of course.

My S-Max says 'Press clutch to start'!

You do have to wonder why they don't all do something
as obvious as that. Presumably its an invention thing and
takes a while before everyone notices it's the best way.

Ohhhhhh look, it's silly Wodney.
The prick with hindsight.

Steve Walker explained :
More likely it is using pulse-width modulation - far easier for digital and
power electronics than varying the voltage.

SteveW

Agreed and yes it does, as does the climate fan, but not the radiator
cooling fan. That surprisingly uses a 100w resistor to provide half
speed ;-)

In article , Andy Burns
writes
Michael Chare wrote:

is it really the
case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two
thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L
bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much
thicker wires?

Well yes, because thick copper is expensive, and those 4 wires (and
multiple CAN chips) can individually drive
tail/brake/indicator/reverse/fog lamps ...

Also the chips start to do snazzy things such as dimming one side's
front running lamps when indicating or providing the "moving pulse" on
newer indicators
And switch off vehicle rear fog but leave on trailer fog.
--
bert

In article , Andy Burns
writes
newshound wrote:

it seems to me that the indicators on many modern cars are
significantly less visible, especially off-axis, than those of older
vehicles.
I find the worst design is circular brake lights surrounded by a ring
of indicators, or vice-versa.

Being positioned very close to bright LED
running lights does not help in other cases, too (so dimming these seems
an excellent idea to me).

Yes, several manufacturers seem to do that now.

I sometimes find it difficult with the rear LED indicators placed in the
centre of circular rear lights esp when brake lights are also on.
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Max Demian wrote:
On 25/05/2017 10:15, newshound wrote:
On 5/24/2017 9:45 PM, NY wrote:

I too think that modern cars' indicators are far less conspicuous,
especially in daylight when the light reflected off the clear "glass"
of the cluster makes it harder to see the slightly brighter "on" phase
of the flashing light.

Glad it is not just me!

Perhaps what we need is some sort of European Union where collective
benefits (like USB charging on phones) can be worked out

...enabling hacking by a rogue charger as USB plugs can pass data as
well as power.

Does my wall wart USB power supply for my phone pass on data to the leccy
company? ;-)

If it does sell it to them as a smart meter that works.
--
bert

In article , Bob Eager
writes
On Wed, 24 May 2017 22:37:41 +0100, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Graham. wrote on 24/05/2017 :
How about a different cadence for hazard lights, so you don't mistake
them as an intention to pull out when the nearside indicator is
obscured.

It would need to be very different, because normal indicators legally
have a wide range of speeds.

Change the mark/space ratio?



I know, lets have a little illuminated arm in the side of the vehicle,
one on each side which comes out to show which way you have just turned.
It should be positioned with in reach of the driver so you can turn
round and thump it if it sticks.
--
bert

bert wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

the chips start to do snazzy things such as

switch off vehicle rear fog but leave on trailer fog.

I thought the 7 pin sockets had been doing that with an inbuilt switch
for decades?

On 24/05/2017 20:50, Michael Chare wrote:
I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the
case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two
thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L
bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much
thicker wires?

The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy!



It didn't make fitting a Vauxhall towing kit difficult.
The computer now monitors the trailer lights as well as the car lights.

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
bert wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

the chips start to do snazzy things such as

switch off vehicle rear fog but leave on trailer fog.

I thought the 7 pin sockets had been doing that with an inbuilt switch for
decades?

The 7-pin (as opposed to 13-pin) socket doesn't have a pin that is dedicated
for use by foglights? They have separate pins for left- and right-hand tail
lights (why?) but none for fog lights - unless you sacrifice the permanent
12V feed for a fridge. When my parents had a caravan in the early 70s, they
had an extra wire for foglights which they had to remember to plug/unplug
when they were hitching/unhitching the caravan. While some cars may have
once had side/tail lights that could be controlled individually, for use as
parking lights, it seems weird to waste a pin replicating that onto the
trailer, when it means you can't have both permanent live and fog lights.
Mind you, the lack of a reversing light pin is also odd: how else is the car
behind supposed to know that you intend to reverse?

On 26/05/2017 21:49, NY wrote:
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
bert wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

the chips start to do snazzy things such as

switch off vehicle rear fog but leave on trailer fog.

I thought the 7 pin sockets had been doing that with an inbuilt switch
for decades?

The 7-pin (as opposed to 13-pin) socket doesn't have a pin that is
dedicated for use by foglights? They have separate pins for left- and
right-hand tail lights (why?) but none for fog lights - unless you
sacrifice the permanent 12V feed for a fridge. When my parents had a
caravan in the early 70s, they had an extra wire for foglights which
they had to remember to plug/unplug when they were hitching/unhitching
the caravan. While some cars may have once had side/tail lights that
could be controlled individually, for use as parking lights, it seems
weird to waste a pin replicating that onto the trailer, when it means
you can't have both permanent live and fog lights.

But all the cars that I have owned (before the current canbus one) have
had separate fuses for left and right tail/sidelights and a single fuse
for brakelights. I have always presumed that this is so in the event of
a single fuse blowing, you are not left on a country road, in pitch
darkness, with no lights at all and liable to be crashed into. Trailer
connections merely continue the existing split circuits.

Mind you, the lack of
a reversing light pin is also odd: how else is the car behind supposed
to know that you intend to reverse?

Not at all odd. Many cars (most) would not have had foglights or even
reversing lights when the 12N socket first appeared and in all
likelihood no trailers or caravans would.

Once the 12S was introduced there was no need for the permanent live in
the 12N, as that could be dealt with in the 12S. Both fog and reversing
lights could have gone in the 12S, but that would have meant that both
sockets would be needed on every towcar, but by putting the foglights
onto the 12N, only one socket would be needed for towing basic trailers.

Reversing lights are not a requirement, hence the 12S is not mandatory.

In fact according to the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations, reversing
lamps are optional, even on cars, never mind trailers! You cannot be
fined (or fail an MOT) for not having a reversing light or for it not
working.

On the other hand, plug a trailer or caravan with reversing lights into
a car wired to the old (pre-12S), permanent-live standard and they will
be on all the time. And showing a white light to the rear, except when
reversing, *IS* an offence.

SteveW

On Wed, 24 May 2017 22:45:32 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 24/05/2017 22:37, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Graham. wrote on 24/05/2017 :
How about a different cadence for hazard lights, so you don't mistake
them as an intention to pull out when the nearside indicator is
obscured.

It would need to be very different, because normal indicators legally
have a wide range of speeds.

How about a double flash, pause, double flash?

I must admit that I am fed up of seeing vehicles that appear to be about
to pull out from a row, only to find as I get there that they have
hazard lights on.

SteveW

Precisely what I had in mind.

--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

NY wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

bert wrote:

switch off vehicle rear fog but leave on trailer fog.

I thought the 7 pin sockets had been doing that with an inbuilt switch for
decades?

The 7-pin (as opposed to 13-pin) socket doesn't have a pin that is dedicated
for use by foglights?

This was donkeys year ago, with twin 7 pin sockets (one grey, one black)

"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
NY wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

bert wrote:

switch off vehicle rear fog but leave on trailer fog.

I thought the 7 pin sockets had been doing that with an inbuilt switch
for
decades?

The 7-pin (as opposed to 13-pin) socket doesn't have a pin that is
dedicated
for use by foglights.

This was donkeys year ago, with twin 7 pin sockets (one grey, one black)

Yes, I was referring to the single 7-pin socket, as opposed to the later
twin 7-pin sockets or the even later 13-pin.

Is 13-pin now the standard - do all new trailers/caravans/bike racks now
come with a 13-pin plug? When we bought our new car a couple of years ago,
we got them to fit a 7-pin socket because our old bike rack had a 7-pin
plug. We should have planned ahead and got them to fit a 13-pin socket and
buy an adaptor, given that we've since bought a new, better bike rack with a
13-pin plug (and had to buy the converse adaptor).

Going back to the earlier point, were some cars' 7-pin sockets fitted with
switch which disabled the car's fog (and maybe reversing) lights when they
sensed a plug in the socket? I bet you had to keep the socket clean to avoid
that switch getting gunged up.

On 25/05/2017 09:26, Nightjar wrote:
On 24-May-17 8:50 PM, Michael Chare wrote:
I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really the
case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with two
thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and CAN-L
bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and much
thicker wires?

A failed LED in an array won't make much difference to the function of
the light, but a failed bulb, which is far more probable, will.

The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy!

I bought my car with manufacturer fitted fold-away tow bar and electrics.


In the case of my car, quite an expensive option compared to the cost of
the parts for a fixed tow bar. I have not had difficulty fitting tow
bars to previous vehicles.


--
Michael Chare

On 25/05/2017 11:39, Lee wrote:
On 24/05/2017 20:50, Michael Chare wrote:
I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really
the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with
two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and
CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs and
much thicker wires?

The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket easy!



There's also the subtle point that one thick cable (my car also has a
fusebox in the boot) and plug in modules can cope with all the possible
factory options without having unneeded wires in the loom, or even worse
a custom loom.

Plus the ability for the BCM to substitute a failed lamp for an
alternative is quite useful. If sometimes confusing

And I'd argue that as long as you are using the right parts, it makes
wiring a trailer socket many times easier...though it obviously costs
more than using generic adapters

It now doubt depends on the vehicle, but in the case of my car, running
cables from the back of the car and then connecting to the BCM plugs is
about as awkward as it gets. It took some time just to find the plugs as
they are out of sight even after the CD player in the glove box and the
glove box have been removed.

--
Michael Chare

In article ,
Michael Chare wrote:
On 25/05/2017 09:26, Nightjar wrote:
On 24-May-17 8:50 PM, Michael Chare wrote:
I presume cars are made a economically as possible, so is it really
the case that a rear light unit with LEDs and driven by CAN bus, with
two thin wires for the power and two even thinner wires for CAN-H and
CAN-L bus is really cheaper to make than one with convention bulbs
and much thicker wires?

A failed LED in an array won't make much difference to the function of
the light, but a failed bulb, which is far more probable, will.

The modern system does not make connecting a trailer light socket
easy!

I bought my car with manufacturer fitted fold-away tow bar and
electrics.


In the case of my car, quite an expensive option compared to the cost of
the parts for a fixed tow bar. I have not had difficulty fitting tow
bars to previous vehicles.

Very much depends on the vehicle. Some need different rear suspension too.
So a factory fit might cost less than retro.

--
*When companies ship Styrofoam, what do they pack it in? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

NY wrote:

Going back to the earlier point, were some cars' 7-pin sockets fitted with
switch which disabled the car's fog (and maybe reversing) lights when they
sensed a plug in the socket? I bet you had to keep the socket clean to avoid
that switch getting gunged up.

My memory is that they did have such a contact, which was out of
sight, and I don't recall any problems with contamination.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On 27/05/2017 16:37, Chris J Dixon wrote:
NY wrote:

Going back to the earlier point, were some cars' 7-pin sockets fitted with
switch which disabled the car's fog (and maybe reversing) lights when they
sensed a plug in the socket? I bet you had to keep the socket clean to avoid
that switch getting gunged up.

My memory is that they did have such a contact, which was out of
sight, and I don't recall any problems with contamination.

Chris

The switches did fail ... frequently.

I am glad to be away from those now - the car recognises a trailer is
connected and disables the rear fogslights electronically.

SteveW

Andy Burns wrote:

I can easily get replacement painted incandescent, I wonder about LED
replacement

As the bulbs haven't blown, just a bit pale, I've ordered a couple of
LED replacements on the slow boat from China

The slow boat arrived yesterday, amber LEDs fitted this morning, equally
bright as the old bulbs, cheaper than incandescents from halfords, no
CANBUS warnings.

https://aliexpress.com/item/PY21W/32381692761.html