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Default UPVC door.

I have an outside door to the roof terrace here. A fairly recent one -
perhaps 30 years old. Just a basic wood frame with a single full sized
double glazed plain glass panel.

The door opens inwards and has leaked off and on since it was fitted. It's
rather exposed up there. I fitted fancy seals which helped - but notice
some of the rubber has started to perish, and the wood frame of the door
isn't that great either.

It's not a period feature, and security isn't an issue, so I'm considering
replacing it with a UPVC one which hopefully would have better seals.

The present door in set into a custom made window frame - pretty chunky as
it is load bearing. If I removed the door and the planted on stops, I'd be
left with a basic wood frame made out of 4x2" which is well braced by
horizontals for the window - of the same size.

I've a horror of double glazing firms that install things. Googling has
found several firms that will supply a door and frame made to size.

Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.

--
*Shin: a device for finding furniture in the dark *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Look at Composite Doors as well.
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On Friday, 19 May 2017 16:34:21 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have an outside door to the roof terrace here. A fairly recent one -
perhaps 30 years old. Just a basic wood frame with a single full sized
double glazed plain glass panel.

The door opens inwards and has leaked off and on since it was fitted. It's
rather exposed up there. I fitted fancy seals which helped - but notice
some of the rubber has started to perish, and the wood frame of the door
isn't that great either.

It's not a period feature, and security isn't an issue, so I'm considering
replacing it with a UPVC one which hopefully would have better seals.

The present door in set into a custom made window frame - pretty chunky as
it is load bearing. If I removed the door and the planted on stops, I'd be
left with a basic wood frame made out of 4x2" which is well braced by
horizontals for the window - of the same size.

I've a horror of double glazing firms that install things. Googling has
found several firms that will supply a door and frame made to size.

Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.

--
*Shin: a device for finding furniture in the dark *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


IME
uPVC door frames are quite "floppy".
It's quite difficult to install them so all the locks etc. work.
You need lots of packing pieces to prevent the door frame distorting when you install.
Also has to be completely "flat"/parallel/square.
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DerbyBorn wrote in
2.236:




Look at Composite Doors as well.


http://compositedoorworld.co.uk/

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On 19/05/2017 16:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have an outside door to the roof terrace here. A fairly recent one -
perhaps 30 years old. Just a basic wood frame with a single full sized
double glazed plain glass panel.

The door opens inwards and has leaked off and on since it was fitted. It's
rather exposed up there. I fitted fancy seals which helped - but notice
some of the rubber has started to perish, and the wood frame of the door
isn't that great either.

It's not a period feature, and security isn't an issue, so I'm considering
replacing it with a UPVC one which hopefully would have better seals.

The present door in set into a custom made window frame - pretty chunky as
it is load bearing. If I removed the door and the planted on stops, I'd be
left with a basic wood frame made out of 4x2" which is well braced by
horizontals for the window - of the same size.

I've a horror of double glazing firms that install things. Googling has
found several firms that will supply a door and frame made to size.

Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.


A single pane fully glazed uPVC door isn't very rigid at the corners,
and will lozenge given half a chance. You prevent this by strategic
placement of packing pieces between frame and sealed unit - by what is
called "heeling and toeing". The sealed unit then gives the frame the
necessary rigidity.

The door hinges usually have adjusters for in and out, and to and away
from the frame - using Allen keys which effectively vary the
eccentricity of the hinge pins.

It's as well to make the frame slightly undersize, and use packing
pieces to allow for the brickwork (in your case wooden frame) being
slightly out of square - and then cover the gaps with a bead of mastic.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.


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In article ,
Roger Mills wrote:
Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.


A single pane fully glazed uPVC door isn't very rigid at the corners,
and will lozenge given half a chance.


Aren't they steel framed?

You prevent this by strategic
placement of packing pieces between frame and sealed unit - by what is
called "heeling and toeing". The sealed unit then gives the frame the
necessary rigidity.


I do remember spending time getting the patio doors absolutely square -
but I've lost the instructions that came with them. (they were a stock
size from Screwfix, and have lasted very well)

The door hinges usually have adjusters for in and out, and to and away
from the frame - using Allen keys which effectively vary the
eccentricity of the hinge pins.


It's as well to make the frame slightly undersize, and use packing
pieces to allow for the brickwork (in your case wooden frame) being
slightly out of square - and then cover the gaps with a bead of mastic.


Right. How is the frame normally fixed to the 'wall' (my wood frame)? Just
screws through it?

Basically I'm hoping the better locks and seals will keep out water over
the old wood door with just a single latch. Which flexed a fair bit.

--
*Before they invented drawing boards, what did they go back to?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Default UPVC door.


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
I have an outside door to the roof terrace here. A fairly recent one -
perhaps 30 years old. Just a basic wood frame with a single full sized
double glazed plain glass panel.

The door opens inwards and has leaked off and on since it was fitted. It's
rather exposed up there. I fitted fancy seals which helped - but notice
some of the rubber has started to perish, and the wood frame of the door
isn't that great either.

It's not a period feature, and security isn't an issue, so I'm considering
replacing it with a UPVC one which hopefully would have better seals.

The present door in set into a custom made window frame - pretty chunky as
it is load bearing. If I removed the door and the planted on stops, I'd be
left with a basic wood frame made out of 4x2" which is well braced by
horizontals for the window - of the same size.

I've a horror of double glazing firms that install things. Googling has
found several firms that will supply a door and frame made to size.

Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.


Why do you want a plastic (garbage) door?
You should check, your beloved EU might outlaw such crap.
That won't stop you though, right?
EU principles go out of the window when it's something for yourself.
You can come the high and mighty all you like, when it's for yourself you
couldn't give a ****.
Stuff the friggin EU.
You go for the crappy plastic door, Dave.
Your leader will be proud.


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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
I have an outside door to the roof terrace here. A fairly recent one -
perhaps 30 years old. Just a basic wood frame with a single full sized
double glazed plain glass panel.

The door opens inwards and has leaked off and on since it was fitted. It's
rather exposed up there. I fitted fancy seals which helped - but notice
some of the rubber has started to perish, and the wood frame of the door
isn't that great either.

It's not a period feature, and security isn't an issue, so I'm considering
replacing it with a UPVC one which hopefully would have better seals.

The present door in set into a custom made window frame - pretty chunky as
it is load bearing. If I removed the door and the planted on stops, I'd be
left with a basic wood frame made out of 4x2" which is well braced by
horizontals for the window - of the same size.

I've a horror of double glazing firms that install things. Googling has
found several firms that will supply a door and frame made to size.

Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.


2nd posting attempt, god knows why i bother -

Why do you want a plastic (garbage) door?
You should check, your beloved EU might outlaw such crap.
That won't stop you though, right?
EU principles go out of the window when it's something for yourself.
You can come the high and mighty all you like, when it's for yourself you
couldn't give a ****.
Stuff the friggin EU.
You go for the crappy plastic door, Dave.
Your leader will be proud.




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"bm" wrote in message
web.com...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
I have an outside door to the roof terrace here. A fairly recent one -
perhaps 30 years old. Just a basic wood frame with a single full sized
double glazed plain glass panel.

The door opens inwards and has leaked off and on since it was fitted.
It's
rather exposed up there. I fitted fancy seals which helped - but notice
some of the rubber has started to perish, and the wood frame of the door
isn't that great either.

It's not a period feature, and security isn't an issue, so I'm
considering
replacing it with a UPVC one which hopefully would have better seals.

The present door in set into a custom made window frame - pretty chunky
as
it is load bearing. If I removed the door and the planted on stops, I'd
be
left with a basic wood frame made out of 4x2" which is well braced by
horizontals for the window - of the same size.

I've a horror of double glazing firms that install things. Googling has
found several firms that will supply a door and frame made to size.

Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.


2nd posting attempt, god knows why i bother -

Why do you want a plastic (garbage) door?
You should check, your beloved EU might outlaw such crap.
That won't stop you though, right?
EU principles go out of the window when it's something for yourself.
You can come the high and mighty all you like, when it's for yourself you
couldn't give a ****.
Stuff the friggin EU.
You go for the crappy plastic door, Dave.
Your leader will be proud.


Tim, don't, just don't. You'd be wasting your type, as are we all.


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Dave Plowman wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:

A single pane fully glazed uPVC door isn't very rigid at the corners,
and will lozenge given half a chance.


Aren't they steel framed?


They have steel reinforcement in places, but usually not an entire steel
frame. Maybe you can specify it, maybe they include more reinforcement
above a certain size?

You prevent this by strategic
placement of packing pieces between frame and sealed unit - by what is
called "heeling and toeing". The sealed unit then gives the frame the
necessary rigidity.


Yes, need to get the packing right on any opener, and a door is a big
opener with lots of leverage, if you have e.g. a lower foam core panel
obviously that's much lighter than D/G.
Right. How is the frame normally fixed to the 'wall' (my wood

frame)? Just
screws through it?


Into wood that's what I'd expect, into brick frame anchors are typical,
then foam around the gaps, silicone or PVC trim for appearance.

Basically I'm hoping the better locks and seals will keep out water over
the old wood door with just a single latch. Which flexed a fair bit.


Yes, with the in/out/up/down/shake-it-all-about adjustment of the flag
hinges you get a good seal, though the operation is at first non-obvious.



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On 20/05/2017 02:56, bm wrote:
"bm" wrote in message
web.com...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
I have an outside door to the roof terrace here. A fairly recent one -
perhaps 30 years old. Just a basic wood frame with a single full sized
double glazed plain glass panel.

The door opens inwards and has leaked off and on since it was fitted.
It's
rather exposed up there. I fitted fancy seals which helped - but notice
some of the rubber has started to perish, and the wood frame of the door
isn't that great either.

It's not a period feature, and security isn't an issue, so I'm
considering
replacing it with a UPVC one which hopefully would have better seals.

The present door in set into a custom made window frame - pretty chunky
as
it is load bearing. If I removed the door and the planted on stops, I'd
be
left with a basic wood frame made out of 4x2" which is well braced by
horizontals for the window - of the same size.

I've a horror of double glazing firms that install things. Googling has
found several firms that will supply a door and frame made to size.

Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.


2nd posting attempt, god knows why i bother -

Why do you want a plastic (garbage) door?
You should check, your beloved EU might outlaw such crap.
That won't stop you though, right?
EU principles go out of the window when it's something for yourself.
You can come the high and mighty all you like, when it's for yourself you
couldn't give a ****.
Stuff the friggin EU.
You go for the crappy plastic door, Dave.
Your leader will be proud.


Tim, don't, just don't. You'd be wasting your type, as are we all.



IIRC everything apart from the glass is positioned accurately and set
rigid with expanding foam. Half an hour later the frame is drilled
through for the fixings, and lastly the glazing panels go in. Installers
carry a multitude of odds and ends, like a decent foam gun, and a
selection of trims that would be hard to find locally at short notice.
They're also good at knocking the bits in that secure the glass (I'm not!)
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On Saturday, 20 May 2017 00:40:04 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roger Mills wrote:
Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.


A single pane fully glazed uPVC door isn't very rigid at the corners,
and will lozenge given half a chance.


Aren't they steel framed?

You prevent this by strategic
placement of packing pieces between frame and sealed unit - by what is
called "heeling and toeing". The sealed unit then gives the frame the
necessary rigidity.


I do remember spending time getting the patio doors absolutely square -
but I've lost the instructions that came with them. (they were a stock
size from Screwfix, and have lasted very well)

The door hinges usually have adjusters for in and out, and to and away
from the frame - using Allen keys which effectively vary the
eccentricity of the hinge pins.


It's as well to make the frame slightly undersize, and use packing
pieces to allow for the brickwork (in your case wooden frame) being
slightly out of square - and then cover the gaps with a bead of mastic.


Right. How is the frame normally fixed to the 'wall' (my wood frame)? Just
screws through it?

Basically I'm hoping the better locks and seals will keep out water over
the old wood door with just a single latch. Which flexed a fair bit.


There is steel inside the sections, just pushed in during manufacture.
There's no way to joint/weld the corners.
It's only there to screw locks/hinges etc to.
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In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
You prevent this by strategic
placement of packing pieces between frame and sealed unit - by what is
called "heeling and toeing". The sealed unit then gives the frame the
necessary rigidity.


Yes, need to get the packing right on any opener, and a door is a big
opener with lots of leverage, if you have e.g. a lower foam core panel
obviously that's much lighter than D/G.


One other point to get clear in my head. Which isn't easy these days.

There is an existing sill made of wood (lead covered on the outside) which
is saying. The new frame comes with a sill - I've specified a aluminium
one as it is lower) Obviously that has to be well supported and level.
What would be the best thing to go between the new and old to support all
over and seal? Is foam strong enough? Or will the wall fixings etc be
taking most of the weight?

--
*I'm reading a book about anti-gravity. I just can't put it down.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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In article 2,
DerbyBorn wrote:
DerbyBorn wrote in
2.236:





Look at Composite Doors as well.


http://compositedoorworld.co.uk/


They don't do a design I like. The original plus side window was architect
designed, and I want to keep it looking as close to that as possible.

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Stuart Noble
wrote:


On 20/05/2017 02:56, bm wrote:
"bm" wrote in message
web.com...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
I have an outside door to the roof terrace here. A fairly recent
one - perhaps 30 years old. Just a basic wood frame with a single
full sized double glazed plain glass panel.

The door opens inwards and has leaked off and on since it was
fitted. It's rather exposed up there. I fitted fancy seals which
helped - but notice some of the rubber has started to perish, and
the wood frame of the door isn't that great either.

It's not a period feature, and security isn't an issue, so I'm
considering replacing it with a UPVC one which hopefully would have
better seals.

The present door in set into a custom made window frame - pretty
chunky as it is load bearing. If I removed the door and the planted
on stops, I'd be left with a basic wood frame made out of 4x2"
which is well braced by horizontals for the window - of the same
size.

I've a horror of double glazing firms that install things. Googling
has found several firms that will supply a door and frame made to
size.

Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio
doors OK some time ago.

2nd posting attempt, god knows why i bother -


Why indeed, bm, since you're unlikely to have anything worthwhile to add.

Why do you want a plastic (garbage) door? You should check, your
beloved EU might outlaw such crap. That won't stop you though,
right? EU principles go out of the window when it's something for
yourself. You can come the high and mighty all you like, when it's
for yourself you couldn't give a ****. Stuff the friggin EU. You go
for the crappy plastic door, Dave. Your leader will be proud.


And so it proved...

Tim, don't, just don't. You'd be wasting your type, as are we all.


IIRC everything apart from the glass is positioned accurately and set
rigid with expanding foam. Half an hour later the frame is drilled
through for the fixings, and lastly the glazing panels go in.
Installers carry a multitude of odds and ends, like a decent foam gun,
and a selection of trims that would be hard to find locally at short
notice. They're also good at knocking the bits in that secure the
glass (I'm not!)


Before the foam is applied, the frame is firmly screwed into the inner
leaf with a number of long screws.


Thanks Tim. I think the door and frame will arrive fully assembled. But
since there is about 5mm clearance all round, it would need to be packed
close to the screws to avoid any distortion? Then foam filled?

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


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On Fri, 19 May 2017 16:30:51 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.


The biggest gotcha IMO is that that they have a frame that goes ALL the way round
including the bit that sits on your existing cill, and you will have to step over every
time you go in or out. Plus what others have said - floppy, poor locks etc.

When I put in my new 920mm wood front door, I had a custom machined hardwood 70x75 frame
made for it, with interal cill, seals, and fanlight aperture above. Bit of overkill for
your roof terrace, but a huge immprovement on my old wobbly frame.

Phil
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On Saturday, 20 May 2017 13:32:07 UTC+1, Phil Addison wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2017 16:30:51 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.


The biggest gotcha IMO is that that they have a frame that goes ALL the way round
including the bit that sits on your existing cill, and you will have to step over every
time you go in or out. Plus what others have said - floppy, poor locks etc.

When I put in my new 920mm wood front door, I had a custom machined hardwood 70x75 frame
made for it, with interal cill, seals, and fanlight aperture above. Bit of overkill for
your roof terrace, but a huge immprovement on my old wobbly frame.

Phil


You can get door frames with a shallow metal strip instead of the "frame" on the bottom edge.
Even more floppy than the normal ones.
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Dave Plowman wrote:

The new frame comes with a sill - I've specified a aluminium
one as it is lower) Obviously that has to be well supported and level.
What would be the best thing to go between the new and old to support all
over and seal? Is foam strong enough? Or will the wall fixings etc be
taking most of the weight?


The back door of my garage is a PVC frame, with fanlight and door, I
specced a low-level cill, to make wheelie-bins etc easy to get through.
I don't think the alu cill takes much of the weight, couple of screws to
keep it held down, I used a polysulphide sealant to stop rain getting under.

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On Friday, 19 May 2017 16:34:21 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have an outside door to the roof terrace here. A fairly recent one -
perhaps 30 years old. Just a basic wood frame with a single full sized
double glazed plain glass panel.

The door opens inwards and has leaked off and on since it was fitted. It's
rather exposed up there. I fitted fancy seals which helped - but notice
some of the rubber has started to perish, and the wood frame of the door
isn't that great either.

It's not a period feature, and security isn't an issue, so I'm considering
replacing it with a UPVC one which hopefully would have better seals.

The present door in set into a custom made window frame - pretty chunky as
it is load bearing. If I removed the door and the planted on stops, I'd be
left with a basic wood frame made out of 4x2" which is well braced by
horizontals for the window - of the same size.

I've a horror of double glazing firms that install things. Googling has
found several firms that will supply a door and frame made to size.

Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.


Any glass in the doors & panels has to be carefully shimmed.
It stops the door from drooping after installation.
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In article ,
Phil Addison wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2017 16:30:51 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:


Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors
OK some time ago.


The biggest gotcha IMO is that that they have a frame that goes ALL the
way round including the bit that sits on your existing cill, and you
will have to step over every time you go in or out.


I'd already added a special sill on top of the original in an attempt to
stop water ingress. As built, it had an aluminium bar. The problem
happened with the wind in a particular direction driving rain past it.
I described the problem here years ago and followed the advice given - but
with only partial success. Now I'm decorating the outside, seemed like a
good time to find a proper cure.


Plus what others
have said - floppy, poor locks etc.


When I put in my new 920mm wood front door, I had a custom machined
hardwood 70x75 frame made for it, with interal cill, seals, and fanlight
aperture above. Bit of overkill for your roof terrace, but a huge
immprovement on my old wobbly frame.


If it hadn't been for the water issue, was happy with the old door. It
certainly couldn't be described as wobbly.

My front door is the Victorian original and just fine - but it is situated
well back from the outside wall, so gets a degree of protection.

Did wonder if the door had opened outwards might have helped sort the
water leaking. As any wind would tend to blow it on to the seals.

Phil


--
*I got a job at a bakery because I kneaded dough.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


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In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But in our case it was a standard 1930s build brick cavity wall. A uPVC
DG unit is quite heavy, myself I'd worry somewhat about whether your
wooden frame structure will flex too much in use.


As I said, there will be 5mm clearance each side and top/bottom. A decent
flexible sealer should be able to cope with that. There's not quite the
same need for a very strong fixing as most external doors since there's
little in the way of a security issue.

--
*El nino made me do it

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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On 20/05/2017 13:38, harry wrote:
On Saturday, 20 May 2017 13:32:07 UTC+1, Phil Addison wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2017 16:30:51 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.


The biggest gotcha IMO is that that they have a frame that goes ALL the way round
including the bit that sits on your existing cill, and you will have to step over every
time you go in or out. Plus what others have said - floppy, poor locks etc.

When I put in my new 920mm wood front door, I had a custom machined hardwood 70x75 frame
made for it, with interal cill, seals, and fanlight aperture above. Bit of overkill for
your roof terrace, but a huge immprovement on my old wobbly frame.

Phil


You can get door frames with a shallow metal strip instead of the "frame" on the bottom edge.
Even more floppy than the normal ones.


I think it's called a "wheelchair threshold" or similar
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Default UPVC door.

On Sat, 20 May 2017 05:44:12 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

On Friday, 19 May 2017 16:34:21 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have an outside door to the roof terrace here. A fairly recent one -
perhaps 30 years old. Just a basic wood frame with a single full sized
double glazed plain glass panel.

The door opens inwards and has leaked off and on since it was fitted. It's
rather exposed up there. I fitted fancy seals which helped - but notice
some of the rubber has started to perish, and the wood frame of the door
isn't that great either.

It's not a period feature, and security isn't an issue, so I'm considering
replacing it with a UPVC one which hopefully would have better seals.

The present door in set into a custom made window frame - pretty chunky as
it is load bearing. If I removed the door and the planted on stops, I'd be
left with a basic wood frame made out of 4x2" which is well braced by
horizontals for the window - of the same size.

I've a horror of double glazing firms that install things. Googling has
found several firms that will supply a door and frame made to size.

Any gotchas about a DIY install? I've done PVC windows and patio doors OK
some time ago.


Any glass in the doors & panels has to be carefully shimmed.
It stops the door from drooping after installation.


My back door is uPVC, and to be honest I'm pretty happy with it notwithstanding previous
post. Dropping is obviously a consideration because mine came with a little block on the
bottom cill, opposite the hinge side, on which the closed door rests. It has a tapered
lead-in to guide the door onto it. Seems to be achieving its objective ok.
https://1drv.ms/i/s!Aozp6JIIkLZzg4R9Cp0uzkNxBMG_Eg

Phil
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