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Default New Woodburner Regulations

It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of
many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See:

http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/

This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of
condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be
interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real
advantages.

It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new
design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable
and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview.

Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires -
which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove.

Andrew
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Default New Woodburner Regulations

On Thursday, 20 April 2017 00:00:39 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of
many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See:

http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/

This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of
condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be
interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real
advantages.

It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new
design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable
and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview.

Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires -
which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove.

Andrew


Traditional wood stoves are very inefficient. 25% is typical.
Most of the inefficiency is due to quenching.
ie cooling the combustion gases before combustion is complete.
So there'slots of scope for improvement.
Difficulties arise because of the extreme variations in the fuel.
Also, room sealed stoves are a big advantage but not presently recognised.
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Default New Woodburner Regulations

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:00:01 +0100, Andrew wrote:

It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of
many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See:

http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/

This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of
condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be
interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real
advantages.

It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new
design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable
and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview.

Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires -
which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove.

Andrew


it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all. The directive is aimed at reducing
energy consumption and largely aimed at electrically powered
appliances; pollution seems to be only considered peripherally.

Properly used, closed wood burners are fairly clean already.
Unfortunately there seems to be a large number of owners who burn wet
fuel and burn with to little air which will make any appliance,
however many regulations ir complies with smoke. The proper approach
to wood burner pollution is to ban them all in any but the smallest
community, they are a completely pointless lifestyle gimmick for most
people.
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Default New Woodburner Regulations

On 20/04/17 08:51, Bill Taylor wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:00:01 +0100, Andrew wrote:

It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of
many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See:

http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/

This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of
condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be
interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real
advantages.

It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new
design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable
and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview.

Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires -
which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove.

Andrew


it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all. The directive is aimed at reducing
energy consumption and largely aimed at electrically powered
appliances; pollution seems to be only considered peripherally.

Properly used, closed wood burners are fairly clean already.
Unfortunately there seems to be a large number of owners who burn wet
fuel and burn with to little air which will make any appliance,
however many regulations ir complies with smoke. The proper approach
to wood burner pollution is to ban them all in any but the smallest
community, they are a completely pointless lifestyle gimmick for most
people.

Hahhahaha. The two new builds going yo here both are to have air sourced
heatpumps because oil boilers are now essentially banned on efficiency
grounds. Both have chimneys, for wood burners which will be the ONLY
source of heat if the electricity supply fails, which it does, quite
often, for periods of several hours due to overhead lines and trees and
weather.



--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.
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Default New Woodburner Regulations

On 20/04/17 00:00, Andrew wrote:
It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of
many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See:

http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/

This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of
condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be
interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real
advantages.

It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new
design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable
and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview.

Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires -
which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove.

Andrew


Why do my hackles rise when I see *anything* with an "Eco" tag on it?

I had a look at the link provided. It didn't say that much so I went to
http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com/airquality/ where some figures
were provided. Down at the bottom of that page are four histograms (if
you can't read them because they are so small download the pdf) which
provide the "data" the comparisons are based on. What I find interesting
is just where the Ecodesign limit lines are placed. Where the Ecodesign
stoves do better (whatever that may mean) than the open fire and old
stove the limit line is placed above it and below them. Now have a look
at the NOx histogram on the bottom right. The Ecodesign stove is
actually worse than the older stove! So where is the limit line placed?
Above all of them - even the open fire. Anyone know why the limits are
placed where they are? Is there an EC Directive for them?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the latest kerfuffle with diesel
engines to do with high levels of NOx pollution they produce? Lucky we
aren't running cars fuelled by Ecodesign stoves, eh?

--

Jeff


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Default New Woodburner Regulations

Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.


Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


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Default New Woodburner Regulations

On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.


Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation.

Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum
cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck
effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a
reliable easy to use cable storage built in too.

It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts
forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it.,

How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more
powerful motor than it should have?

EU regulation is not about improving anything more than the profits of
manufacturers whose products have already saturated the market.


--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€

Vaclav Klaus
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Default New Woodburner Regulations

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 08:51:49 +0100, Bill Taylor
wrote:


Properly used, closed wood burners are fairly clean already.
Unfortunately there seems to be a large number of owners who burn wet
fuel and burn with to little air which will make any appliance,
however many regulations ir complies with smoke. The proper approach
to wood burner pollution is to ban them all in any but the smallest
community, they are a completely pointless lifestyle gimmick for most
people.


What would you define as a small community?
20 or so new age traveler types living in Yurts in a Welsh wood or the
typical village and its surrounds of between 1500 to 5000 people that
are dotted around Britain.
I live in one of the latter and the main fuel choice is electric,
bottled gas or oil.
Electric as primary heating is expensive despite what those bordering
on con artists suppliers of German storage heaters say, the equipment
of the latter two all most always needs a source of electric for them
to work so for me I have a wood burner that is not dependent on
electric supplied by overhead lines that are more prone to damage from
storms than underground supplies in most towns and cities.
The wood burner also supplies our hot water and it quite often is used
for a stew or similar meals as well, and most tea and coffee hot water
is heated on it.

I'd be quite annoyed if areas like this came under your "ban" as it
would mean getting in oil or LPG with all the gubbins that involves
and running a generator if the mains fails to keep the controls
working.
Now if you just mean the trendies in Islington and Hoxton who are
putting them in as a feature to show off then I may agree they are an
affectation but I'm still uneasy with the cry" ban it" because people
don't like something that others do. It is heard too often nowadays.
They will go out of fashion quick enough when the cheap labour source
to provide house cleaners dries up post Brexit and the trendies have
to empty their own ash.

G.Harman
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Default New Woodburner Regulations

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:


it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.


Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


It phased out low powered Hoovers, did it? Incandescent bulbs? Very odd I
can still buy the latter.

You really really really shouldn't believe everything you read in the Mail.

And you might also explain why forcing makers to improve the efficiency of
their products is a bad thing.

--
*If God had wanted me to touch my toes, he would have put them on my knees

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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Default New Woodburner Regulations

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.

Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent'
central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in
their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.

How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation.


Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF
TV? No? Was that because of the EU?

Well it's what happens when you are ruled by an unelected unaccountable
oligarchy. Why is anyone surprised. The oligarchy is in the pockets of
German big business, end of story.


No matter how often you tell a lie doesn't make it true

--
*Few women admit their age; fewer men act it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


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Default New Woodburner Regulations

On 20/04/2017 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.


Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation.

Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum
cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck
effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a
reliable easy to use cable storage built in too.

It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts
forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it.,

How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more
powerful motor than it should have?


How does requiring the next one sold to be less powerful render the one
sat in your cupboard obsolete? If anything it seems more likely to make
you want to hang on to the one you have.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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On 20/04/17 11:32, John Rumm wrote:
On 20/04/2017 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.

Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation.

Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum
cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck
effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a
reliable easy to use cable storage built in too.

It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts
forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it.,

How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more
powerful motor than it should have?


How does requiring the next one sold to be less powerful render the one
sat in your cupboard obsolete? If anything it seems more likely to make
you want to hang on to the one you have.

Well its all si kology innit?

The smart meter shows you using MORE LECCY so you get guilty becoz eny
fule know its all climb it seance innit?
So coz its wet an rayney you take missus and kidz to the mall and she
says 'look, jenny's got one like that, its reely green' and once you
realise its not the backside of the overwight sales assitant, you have
bough a dye soon before you know it Even though its actually purple..

But the missus is smart and listens to the Beebeecee and reads the
garjan and has a degree in sumfing or ovver she got from Pudley Uni, so
thats that innit?






--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain
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On 20/04/2017 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.


Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation.

Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum
cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck
effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a
reliable easy to use cable storage built in too.

It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts
forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it.,

How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more
powerful motor than it should have?


You do know that henry vacs haven't been rendered obsolete by any EU
regulations?
Do you want to reconsider your case and point out something real rather
than a figment of your mind?


EU regulation is not about improving anything more than the profits of
manufacturers whose products have already saturated the market.



Yes dear you would want people to think that as a justification for your
brexit.
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On Thursday, 20 April 2017 11:50:01 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 11:32, John Rumm wrote:
On 20/04/2017 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.

Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation.

Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum
cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck
effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a
reliable easy to use cable storage built in too.

It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts
forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it.,

How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more
powerful motor than it should have?


How does requiring the next one sold to be less powerful render the one
sat in your cupboard obsolete? If anything it seems more likely to make
you want to hang on to the one you have.

Well its all si kology innit?

The smart meter shows you using MORE LECCY so you get guilty becoz eny
fule know its all climb it seance innit?
So coz its wet an rayney you take missus and kidz to the mall and she
says 'look, jenny's got one like that, its reely green' and once you
realise its not the backside of the overwight sales assitant, you have
bough a dye soon before you know it Even though its actually purple..

But the missus is smart and listens to the Beebeecee and reads the
garjan and has a degree in sumfing or ovver she got from Pudley Uni, so
thats that innit?


When it comes time to resell old now non-compliant goods generally you can't. It's removed from the marketplace by law.


NT
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Default New Woodburner Regulations

On 20/04/2017 11:32, John Rumm wrote:
On 20/04/2017 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.

Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation.

Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum
cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck
effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a
reliable easy to use cable storage built in too.

It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts
forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it.,

How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more
powerful motor than it should have?


How does requiring the next one sold to be less powerful render the one
sat in your cupboard obsolete? If anything it seems more likely to make
you want to hang on to the one you have.



TNP is trying to tell lies but he isn't very good at it.
He also ignores that the regulations on vacs limit the power and require
there to be more suction so making vacs perform better.
He also keeps using henry vacs when they haven't been banned at all.

He is really worried that the EU is bad message is starting to look old.


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Default New Woodburner Regulations

On Thursday, 20 April 2017 00:00:39 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of
many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See:

http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/


Air quality is important to all of us. Even though wood burning stoves are a relatively low source of emissions, the SIA feel it is important to reduce emissions from wood burning stoves even further.

Why?

It is as corrupt as any **** gets.
These are the same people who are murdering Syrians thae same ones murdering rwandans and nigerians in the dark ages few decades earlier.

This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of
condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be
interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real
advantages.


What advantages?

It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new
design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable
and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview.

Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires -
which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove.

Andrew


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On Thursday, 20 April 2017 08:51:45 UTC+1, Bill Taylor wrote:

The proper approach
to wood burner pollution is to ban them all in any but the smallest
community, they are a completely pointless lifestyle gimmick for most
people.


Yes **** other people for the greater good or just to **** them.
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On Thursday, 20 April 2017 08:58:16 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


Hahhahaha.


Really?

Or really stooopid?
Passing through, passing through ...

I was at Franklin Roosevelt's side on the night that he died. He said, "one world must come out of world war two" (ah, the fool.)
"Yankee, Russian, white or tan," "you have a chipped log on you shoulders man.
Like the smoke between your chimneys but it is only passing through."
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In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:


You really really really shouldn't believe everything you read in the
Mail.


You really do have the most bizarre fixations - the Mail, St Nige, ...


At least you've finally admitted they are both bizarre.

--
*I took an IQ test and the results were negative.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
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On 20/04/17 12:37, wrote:
On Thursday, 20 April 2017 11:50:01 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 11:32, John Rumm wrote:
On 20/04/2017 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.

Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation.

Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum
cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck
effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a
reliable easy to use cable storage built in too.

It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts
forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it.,

How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more
powerful motor than it should have?

How does requiring the next one sold to be less powerful render the one
sat in your cupboard obsolete? If anything it seems more likely to make
you want to hang on to the one you have.

Well its all si kology innit?

The smart meter shows you using MORE LECCY so you get guilty becoz eny
fule know its all climb it seance innit?
So coz its wet an rayney you take missus and kidz to the mall and she
says 'look, jenny's got one like that, its reely green' and once you
realise its not the backside of the overwight sales assitant, you have
bough a dye soon before you know it Even though its actually purple..

But the missus is smart and listens to the Beebeecee and reads the
garjan and has a degree in sumfing or ovver she got from Pudley Uni, so
thats that innit?


When it comes time to resell old now non-compliant goods generally you can't. It's removed from the marketplace by law.

#

Yup. As I found when trying to resell furniture older than the 'it
contains PU foam and catches fire' times.
NT



--
"What do you think about Gay Marriage?"
"I don't."
"Don't what?"
"Think about Gay Marriage."



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In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more
powerful motor than it should have?


How does requiring the next one sold to be less powerful render the one
sat in your cupboard obsolete? If anything it seems more likely to make
you want to hang on to the one you have.


Being an expert in the meaning of life doesn't seem to extend to
understanding proposed regulations.

--
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On Thursday, 20 April 2017 09:59:24 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.


Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


Teresa may get us out but there surely is no doubt
Some silly *******s need a clout
Let us spank the *******s now to jolly them along
For too long we've been put upon
And there really is no doubt it is long time we were out.
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On 20/04/17 14:13, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Thursday, 20 April 2017 08:58:16 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


Hahhahaha.


Really?

Or really stooopid?
Passing through, passing through ...

I was at Franklin Roosevelt's side on the night that he died. He said, "one world must come out of world war two" (ah, the fool.)
"Yankee, Russian, white or tan," "you have a chipped log on you shoulders man.
Like the smoke between your chimneys but it is only passing through."

I rest my case.



--
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In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 20/04/2017 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation.

Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum
cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck
effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a
reliable easy to use cable storage built in too.

It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and
lasts forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it.,

How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more
powerful motor than it should have?


You do know that henry vacs haven't been rendered obsolete by any EU
regulations?


Shh. Don't tell the likes of Turnip that. Or that Dyson wanted a lower
limit than the proposed one. It goes against the teachings of his vacuum
sect.

Do you want to reconsider your case and point out something real rather
than a figment of your mind?


Perish the thought that we can't just make up any EU reg we care to. That
would cost the press millions of sales.


EU regulation is not about improving anything more than the profits of
manufacturers whose products have already saturated the market.

Good to know Apple is controlled by the EU. Explains everything.

Yes dear you would want people to think that as a justification for your
brexit.


If only I heard just one truly convincing reason.

--
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On Thursday, 20 April 2017 12:43:37 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:

Yes dear you would want people to think that as a justification for your
brexit.


Like the divine right to buy from anywhere but China and to reopen coal mines if you want to?


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On Thursday, 20 April 2017 11:17:30 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.

Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent'
central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in
their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.

How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation.


Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF
TV? No? Was that because of the EU?


Drivel.
It becomes obsolete when something significantly better comes along.
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On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:16:35 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF
TV? No? Was that because of the EU?


Indirectly it was, the Krauts invented PAL, we managed perfectly well with black
and white tv's.
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


It phased out low powered Hoovers, did it?


No, it introduced them the same way in introduced rather than phased out
"smart" pumps.

Incandescent bulbs? Very odd I can still buy the latter.
You really really really shouldn't believe everything you read in the Mail.


Then you will be pleased that I read it from here instead

http://ec.europa.eu/growth/industry/sustainability/ecodesign_en

And you might also explain why forcing makers to improve the efficiency of
their products is a bad thing.


I think it would be much better to force labelling, and let the consumer
choose.

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Jeff Layman wrote:
What I find interesting
is just where the Ecodesign limit lines are placed. Where the Ecodesign
stoves do better (whatever that may mean) than the open fire and old
stove the limit line is placed above it and below them. Now have a look
at the NOx histogram on the bottom right. The Ecodesign stove is
actually worse than the older stove! So where is the limit line placed?
Above all of them - even the open fire.


Exactly!

Given the inherent variables in any stove set up (draw of
flue/atmospheric conditions/fuel quality/mode of usage), I can see the
Ecodesign stoves meeting all the specified conditions in the test lab,
but being wide of the mark in the real world. All at extra cost in
terms of design and development, testing and certification, ultimately
paid for by the consumer.

Andrew



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In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:


In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:


You really really really shouldn't believe everything you read in the
Mail.


You really do have the most bizarre fixations - the Mail, St Nige, ...


At least you've finally admitted they are both bizarre.


I've always known they are bizarre, what took you so long? I only see
the Mail (and in the distance, as in across the room) when at the
Chinese waiting for a takeaway. I did actually hear St Nige on Today
this morning but that is the first time in a coon's age.


Whatever. So many of your bizarre opinions are also those of the Mail and
Farage. So sorry for thinking you got them there.

--
*Dance like nobody's watching.

Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Andy Burns wrote:

Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


It phased out low powered Hoovers, did it?


No, it introduced them the same way in introduced rather than phased out
"smart" pumps.


Which smart pumps have been phased out?

Incandescent bulbs? Very odd I can still buy the latter.
You really really really shouldn't believe everything you read in the Mail.


Then you will be pleased that I read it from here instead


http://ec.europa.eu/growth/industry/sustainability/ecodesign_en


If they've said incandescent bulbs have been phased out they're as wrong
as you.

And you might also explain why forcing makers to improve the
efficiency of their products is a bad thing.


I think it would be much better to force labelling, and let the consumer
choose.


You really think makers give a stuff about efficiency on something like a
vacuum cleaner? And most consumers simply don't care.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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Dave Plowman wrote:

most consumers simply don't care.


So why should the EU care more than the person paying the electricity
bill? What % of energy is used by hoovering?

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On 20/04/17 19:09, The Other Mike wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:16:35 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF
TV? No? Was that because of the EU?


Indirectly it was, the Krauts invented PAL, we managed perfectly well with black
and white tv's.

Anyone remember SECAM?


--
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foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

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On 20/04/17 22:59, Andrew wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote:
What I find interesting
is just where the Ecodesign limit lines are placed. Where the Ecodesign
stoves do better (whatever that may mean) than the open fire and old
stove the limit line is placed above it and below them. Now have a look
at the NOx histogram on the bottom right. The Ecodesign stove is
actually worse than the older stove! So where is the limit line placed?
Above all of them - even the open fire.


Exactly!

Given the inherent variables in any stove set up (draw of
flue/atmospheric conditions/fuel quality/mode of usage), I can see the
Ecodesign stoves meeting all the specified conditions in the test lab,
but being wide of the mark in the real world. All at extra cost in
terms of design and development, testing and certification, ultimately
paid for by the consumer.


I've just sent an enquiry to the SIA asking where the limits came from,
and asking them to comment on the higher NOx level from the Ecodesign
stove, particularly with the current concern over high NOx levels from
diesels in cities.

I wonder what their answer will be?

--

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The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 19:09, The Other Mike wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:16:35 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"

wrote:

Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF
TV? No? Was that because of the EU?


Indirectly it was, the Krauts invented PAL, we managed perfectly well
with black
and white tv's.

Anyone remember SECAM?



Are the Russians still using it?


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On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:07:18 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 20/04/17 19:09, The Other Mike wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:16:35 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF
TV? No? Was that because of the EU?


Indirectly it was, the Krauts invented PAL, we managed perfectly well with black
and white tv's.

Anyone remember SECAM?


Somewhere amongst my sequence of memories.

G.Harman
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On 20/04/2017 12:40, dennis@home wrote:

He also ignores that the regulations on vacs limit the power and require
there to be more suction so making vacs perform better.


OOI do you have a reference for the "more suction" bit? Just wondering
how they define more suction... I can see you could trade off static
suction against airflow for a given amount of power - but that may not
make it perform better.


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Cheers,

John.

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In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Plowman wrote:


most consumers simply don't care.


So why should the EU care more than the person paying the electricity
bill? What % of energy is used by hoovering?


I'd suggest to read up about the reasons behind such legislation. Rather
than making up your own.

--
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John Rumm wrote:

OOI do you have a reference for the "more suction" bit? Just wondering
how they define more suction...


Measured in 'Air Watts' presumably? ISTR dyson making reference to the
relevant IEC standard when the first limit on vacuums was introduced.
Remember, it gets cut further in September ...

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In article ,
The Other Mike wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:16:35 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF
TV? No? Was that because of the EU?


Indirectly it was, the Krauts invented PAL, we managed perfectly well
with black and white tv's.


PAL was developed at the request of the European Broadcast Union. The
previous colour TV system, NTSC, had undergone extensive trials by the BBC
etc and been found lacking.

There's an obvious reason why a German maker spent large sums developing
PAL as a European standard (incidentally first used in the UK, before
Germany) and that was they actually invested in industry, unlike the UK
which preferred to pay out as much as possible to shareholders. Hence
there being no UK owned electronics company these days, while the
descendants of Telefunken are still going strong.

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