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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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New Woodburner Regulations
It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of
many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See: http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/ This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real advantages. It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview. Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires - which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove. Andrew |
#2
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New Woodburner Regulations
On Thursday, 20 April 2017 00:00:39 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See: http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/ This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real advantages. It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview. Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires - which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove. Andrew Traditional wood stoves are very inefficient. 25% is typical. Most of the inefficiency is due to quenching. ie cooling the combustion gases before combustion is complete. So there'slots of scope for improvement. Difficulties arise because of the extreme variations in the fuel. Also, room sealed stoves are a big advantage but not presently recognised. |
#3
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New Woodburner Regulations
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:00:01 +0100, Andrew wrote:
It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See: http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/ This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real advantages. It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview. Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires - which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove. Andrew it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly to wood burning heaters at all. The directive is aimed at reducing energy consumption and largely aimed at electrically powered appliances; pollution seems to be only considered peripherally. Properly used, closed wood burners are fairly clean already. Unfortunately there seems to be a large number of owners who burn wet fuel and burn with to little air which will make any appliance, however many regulations ir complies with smoke. The proper approach to wood burner pollution is to ban them all in any but the smallest community, they are a completely pointless lifestyle gimmick for most people. |
#4
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New Woodburner Regulations
On 20/04/17 08:51, Bill Taylor wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:00:01 +0100, Andrew wrote: It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See: http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/ This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real advantages. It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview. Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires - which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove. Andrew it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly to wood burning heaters at all. The directive is aimed at reducing energy consumption and largely aimed at electrically powered appliances; pollution seems to be only considered peripherally. Properly used, closed wood burners are fairly clean already. Unfortunately there seems to be a large number of owners who burn wet fuel and burn with to little air which will make any appliance, however many regulations ir complies with smoke. The proper approach to wood burner pollution is to ban them all in any but the smallest community, they are a completely pointless lifestyle gimmick for most people. Hahhahaha. The two new builds going yo here both are to have air sourced heatpumps because oil boilers are now essentially banned on efficiency grounds. Both have chimneys, for wood burners which will be the ONLY source of heat if the electricity supply fails, which it does, quite often, for periods of several hours due to overhead lines and trees and weather. -- Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not. Ayn Rand. |
#5
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New Woodburner Regulations
On 20/04/17 00:00, Andrew wrote:
It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See: http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/ This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real advantages. It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview. Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires - which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove. Andrew Why do my hackles rise when I see *anything* with an "Eco" tag on it? I had a look at the link provided. It didn't say that much so I went to http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com/airquality/ where some figures were provided. Down at the bottom of that page are four histograms (if you can't read them because they are so small download the pdf) which provide the "data" the comparisons are based on. What I find interesting is just where the Ecodesign limit lines are placed. Where the Ecodesign stoves do better (whatever that may mean) than the open fire and old stove the limit line is placed above it and below them. Now have a look at the NOx histogram on the bottom right. The Ecodesign stove is actually worse than the older stove! So where is the limit line placed? Above all of them - even the open fire. Anyone know why the limits are placed where they are? Is there an EC Directive for them? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the latest kerfuffle with diesel engines to do with high levels of NOx pollution they produce? Lucky we aren't running cars fuelled by Ecodesign stoves, eh? -- Jeff |
#6
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New Woodburner Regulations
Bill Taylor wrote:
it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly to wood burning heaters at all. Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc. |
#7
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New Woodburner Regulations
On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote: it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly to wood burning heaters at all. Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc. How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation. Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a reliable easy to use cable storage built in too. It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it., How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more powerful motor than it should have? EU regulation is not about improving anything more than the profits of manufacturers whose products have already saturated the market. -- it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans, about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a 'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,' a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984. Vaclav Klaus |
#8
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New Woodburner Regulations
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 08:51:49 +0100, Bill Taylor
wrote: Properly used, closed wood burners are fairly clean already. Unfortunately there seems to be a large number of owners who burn wet fuel and burn with to little air which will make any appliance, however many regulations ir complies with smoke. The proper approach to wood burner pollution is to ban them all in any but the smallest community, they are a completely pointless lifestyle gimmick for most people. What would you define as a small community? 20 or so new age traveler types living in Yurts in a Welsh wood or the typical village and its surrounds of between 1500 to 5000 people that are dotted around Britain. I live in one of the latter and the main fuel choice is electric, bottled gas or oil. Electric as primary heating is expensive despite what those bordering on con artists suppliers of German storage heaters say, the equipment of the latter two all most always needs a source of electric for them to work so for me I have a wood burner that is not dependent on electric supplied by overhead lines that are more prone to damage from storms than underground supplies in most towns and cities. The wood burner also supplies our hot water and it quite often is used for a stew or similar meals as well, and most tea and coffee hot water is heated on it. I'd be quite annoyed if areas like this came under your "ban" as it would mean getting in oil or LPG with all the gubbins that involves and running a generator if the mains fails to keep the controls working. Now if you just mean the trendies in Islington and Hoxton who are putting them in as a feature to show off then I may agree they are an affectation but I'm still uneasy with the cry" ban it" because people don't like something that others do. It is heard too often nowadays. They will go out of fashion quick enough when the cheap labour source to provide house cleaners dries up post Brexit and the trendies have to empty their own ash. G.Harman |
#9
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New Woodburner Regulations
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote: Bill Taylor wrote: it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly to wood burning heaters at all. Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc. It phased out low powered Hoovers, did it? Incandescent bulbs? Very odd I can still buy the latter. You really really really shouldn't believe everything you read in the Mail. And you might also explain why forcing makers to improve the efficiency of their products is a bad thing. -- *If God had wanted me to touch my toes, he would have put them on my knees Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#10
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New Woodburner Regulations
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote: In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote: Bill Taylor wrote: it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly to wood burning heaters at all. Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc. How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation. Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF TV? No? Was that because of the EU? Well it's what happens when you are ruled by an unelected unaccountable oligarchy. Why is anyone surprised. The oligarchy is in the pockets of German big business, end of story. No matter how often you tell a lie doesn't make it true -- *Few women admit their age; fewer men act it. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#11
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New Woodburner Regulations
On 20/04/2017 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote: Bill Taylor wrote: it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly to wood burning heaters at all. Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc. How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation. Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a reliable easy to use cable storage built in too. It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it., How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more powerful motor than it should have? How does requiring the next one sold to be less powerful render the one sat in your cupboard obsolete? If anything it seems more likely to make you want to hang on to the one you have. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#12
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New Woodburner Regulations
On 20/04/17 11:32, John Rumm wrote:
On 20/04/2017 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote: Bill Taylor wrote: it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly to wood burning heaters at all. Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc. How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation. Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a reliable easy to use cable storage built in too. It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it., How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more powerful motor than it should have? How does requiring the next one sold to be less powerful render the one sat in your cupboard obsolete? If anything it seems more likely to make you want to hang on to the one you have. Well its all si kology innit? The smart meter shows you using MORE LECCY so you get guilty becoz eny fule know its all climb it seance innit? So coz its wet an rayney you take missus and kidz to the mall and she says 'look, jenny's got one like that, its reely green' and once you realise its not the backside of the overwight sales assitant, you have bough a dye soon before you know it Even though its actually purple.. But the missus is smart and listens to the Beebeecee and reads the garjan and has a degree in sumfing or ovver she got from Pudley Uni, so thats that innit? -- There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact. Mark Twain |
#13
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New Woodburner Regulations
On 20/04/2017 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote: Bill Taylor wrote: it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly to wood burning heaters at all. Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc. How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation. Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a reliable easy to use cable storage built in too. It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it., How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more powerful motor than it should have? You do know that henry vacs haven't been rendered obsolete by any EU regulations? Do you want to reconsider your case and point out something real rather than a figment of your mind? EU regulation is not about improving anything more than the profits of manufacturers whose products have already saturated the market. Yes dear you would want people to think that as a justification for your brexit. |
#14
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New Woodburner Regulations
On Thursday, 20 April 2017 11:50:01 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 11:32, John Rumm wrote: On 20/04/2017 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote: Bill Taylor wrote: it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly to wood burning heaters at all. Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc. How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation. Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a reliable easy to use cable storage built in too. It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it., How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more powerful motor than it should have? How does requiring the next one sold to be less powerful render the one sat in your cupboard obsolete? If anything it seems more likely to make you want to hang on to the one you have. Well its all si kology innit? The smart meter shows you using MORE LECCY so you get guilty becoz eny fule know its all climb it seance innit? So coz its wet an rayney you take missus and kidz to the mall and she says 'look, jenny's got one like that, its reely green' and once you realise its not the backside of the overwight sales assitant, you have bough a dye soon before you know it Even though its actually purple.. But the missus is smart and listens to the Beebeecee and reads the garjan and has a degree in sumfing or ovver she got from Pudley Uni, so thats that innit? When it comes time to resell old now non-compliant goods generally you can't. It's removed from the marketplace by law. NT |
#15
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New Woodburner Regulations
On 20/04/2017 11:32, John Rumm wrote:
On 20/04/2017 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote: Bill Taylor wrote: it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly to wood burning heaters at all. Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc. How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation. Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a reliable easy to use cable storage built in too. It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it., How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more powerful motor than it should have? How does requiring the next one sold to be less powerful render the one sat in your cupboard obsolete? If anything it seems more likely to make you want to hang on to the one you have. TNP is trying to tell lies but he isn't very good at it. He also ignores that the regulations on vacs limit the power and require there to be more suction so making vacs perform better. He also keeps using henry vacs when they haven't been banned at all. He is really worried that the EU is bad message is starting to look old. |
#16
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New Woodburner Regulations
On Thursday, 20 April 2017 00:00:39 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See: http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/ Air quality is important to all of us. Even though wood burning stoves are a relatively low source of emissions, the SIA feel it is important to reduce emissions from wood burning stoves even further. Why? It is as corrupt as any **** gets. These are the same people who are murdering Syrians thae same ones murdering rwandans and nigerians in the dark ages few decades earlier. This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real advantages. What advantages? It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview. Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires - which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove. Andrew |
#17
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New Woodburner Regulations
On Thursday, 20 April 2017 08:51:45 UTC+1, Bill Taylor wrote:
The proper approach to wood burner pollution is to ban them all in any but the smallest community, they are a completely pointless lifestyle gimmick for most people. Yes **** other people for the greater good or just to **** them. |
#18
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New Woodburner Regulations
On Thursday, 20 April 2017 08:58:16 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Hahhahaha. Really? Or really stooopid? Passing through, passing through ... I was at Franklin Roosevelt's side on the night that he died. He said, "one world must come out of world war two" (ah, the fool.) "Yankee, Russian, white or tan," "you have a chipped log on you shoulders man. Like the smoke between your chimneys but it is only passing through." |
#19
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New Woodburner Regulations
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote: In article , Dave Plowman (News) wrote: You really really really shouldn't believe everything you read in the Mail. You really do have the most bizarre fixations - the Mail, St Nige, ... At least you've finally admitted they are both bizarre. -- *I took an IQ test and the results were negative. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#21
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New Woodburner Regulations
In article ,
John Rumm wrote: How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more powerful motor than it should have? How does requiring the next one sold to be less powerful render the one sat in your cupboard obsolete? If anything it seems more likely to make you want to hang on to the one you have. Being an expert in the meaning of life doesn't seem to extend to understanding proposed regulations. -- *Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it remains so popular?* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#22
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New Woodburner Regulations
On Thursday, 20 April 2017 09:59:24 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote: it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly to wood burning heaters at all. Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc. Teresa may get us out but there surely is no doubt Some silly *******s need a clout Let us spank the *******s now to jolly them along For too long we've been put upon And there really is no doubt it is long time we were out. |
#23
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New Woodburner Regulations
On 20/04/17 14:13, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Thursday, 20 April 2017 08:58:16 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote: Hahhahaha. Really? Or really stooopid? Passing through, passing through ... I was at Franklin Roosevelt's side on the night that he died. He said, "one world must come out of world war two" (ah, the fool.) "Yankee, Russian, white or tan," "you have a chipped log on you shoulders man. Like the smoke between your chimneys but it is only passing through." I rest my case. -- A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes. |
#24
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New Woodburner Regulations
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote: On 20/04/2017 10:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote: How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation. Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a reliable easy to use cable storage built in too. It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it., How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more powerful motor than it should have? You do know that henry vacs haven't been rendered obsolete by any EU regulations? Shh. Don't tell the likes of Turnip that. Or that Dyson wanted a lower limit than the proposed one. It goes against the teachings of his vacuum sect. Do you want to reconsider your case and point out something real rather than a figment of your mind? Perish the thought that we can't just make up any EU reg we care to. That would cost the press millions of sales. EU regulation is not about improving anything more than the profits of manufacturers whose products have already saturated the market. Good to know Apple is controlled by the EU. Explains everything. Yes dear you would want people to think that as a justification for your brexit. If only I heard just one truly convincing reason. -- *IF A TURTLE DOESN'T HAVE A SHELL, IS HE HOMELESS OR NAKED? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#25
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New Woodburner Regulations
On Thursday, 20 April 2017 12:43:37 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
Yes dear you would want people to think that as a justification for your brexit. Like the divine right to buy from anywhere but China and to reopen coal mines if you want to? |
#26
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New Woodburner Regulations
On Thursday, 20 April 2017 11:17:30 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Tim Streater wrote: In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote: Bill Taylor wrote: it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly to wood burning heaters at all. Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc. How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation. Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF TV? No? Was that because of the EU? Drivel. It becomes obsolete when something significantly better comes along. |
#27
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New Woodburner Regulations
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:16:35 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF TV? No? Was that because of the EU? Indirectly it was, the Krauts invented PAL, we managed perfectly well with black and white tv's. -- |
#28
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New Woodburner Regulations
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Andy Burns wrote: Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc. It phased out low powered Hoovers, did it? No, it introduced them the same way in introduced rather than phased out "smart" pumps. Incandescent bulbs? Very odd I can still buy the latter. You really really really shouldn't believe everything you read in the Mail. Then you will be pleased that I read it from here instead http://ec.europa.eu/growth/industry/sustainability/ecodesign_en And you might also explain why forcing makers to improve the efficiency of their products is a bad thing. I think it would be much better to force labelling, and let the consumer choose. |
#29
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New Woodburner Regulations
Jeff Layman wrote:
What I find interesting is just where the Ecodesign limit lines are placed. Where the Ecodesign stoves do better (whatever that may mean) than the open fire and old stove the limit line is placed above it and below them. Now have a look at the NOx histogram on the bottom right. The Ecodesign stove is actually worse than the older stove! So where is the limit line placed? Above all of them - even the open fire. Exactly! Given the inherent variables in any stove set up (draw of flue/atmospheric conditions/fuel quality/mode of usage), I can see the Ecodesign stoves meeting all the specified conditions in the test lab, but being wide of the mark in the real world. All at extra cost in terms of design and development, testing and certification, ultimately paid for by the consumer. Andrew |
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New Woodburner Regulations
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote: In article , Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Tim Streater wrote: In article , Dave Plowman (News) wrote: You really really really shouldn't believe everything you read in the Mail. You really do have the most bizarre fixations - the Mail, St Nige, ... At least you've finally admitted they are both bizarre. I've always known they are bizarre, what took you so long? I only see the Mail (and in the distance, as in across the room) when at the Chinese waiting for a takeaway. I did actually hear St Nige on Today this morning but that is the first time in a coon's age. Whatever. So many of your bizarre opinions are also those of the Mail and Farage. So sorry for thinking you got them there. -- *Dance like nobody's watching. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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New Woodburner Regulations
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote: Dave Plowman (News) wrote: Andy Burns wrote: Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc. It phased out low powered Hoovers, did it? No, it introduced them the same way in introduced rather than phased out "smart" pumps. Which smart pumps have been phased out? Incandescent bulbs? Very odd I can still buy the latter. You really really really shouldn't believe everything you read in the Mail. Then you will be pleased that I read it from here instead http://ec.europa.eu/growth/industry/sustainability/ecodesign_en If they've said incandescent bulbs have been phased out they're as wrong as you. And you might also explain why forcing makers to improve the efficiency of their products is a bad thing. I think it would be much better to force labelling, and let the consumer choose. You really think makers give a stuff about efficiency on something like a vacuum cleaner? And most consumers simply don't care. -- *The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on my list. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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New Woodburner Regulations
Dave Plowman wrote:
most consumers simply don't care. So why should the EU care more than the person paying the electricity bill? What % of energy is used by hoovering? |
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New Woodburner Regulations
On 20/04/17 19:09, The Other Mike wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:16:35 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF TV? No? Was that because of the EU? Indirectly it was, the Krauts invented PAL, we managed perfectly well with black and white tv's. Anyone remember SECAM? -- Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as foolish, and by the rulers as useful. (Seneca the Younger, 65 AD) |
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New Woodburner Regulations
On 20/04/17 22:59, Andrew wrote:
Jeff Layman wrote: What I find interesting is just where the Ecodesign limit lines are placed. Where the Ecodesign stoves do better (whatever that may mean) than the open fire and old stove the limit line is placed above it and below them. Now have a look at the NOx histogram on the bottom right. The Ecodesign stove is actually worse than the older stove! So where is the limit line placed? Above all of them - even the open fire. Exactly! Given the inherent variables in any stove set up (draw of flue/atmospheric conditions/fuel quality/mode of usage), I can see the Ecodesign stoves meeting all the specified conditions in the test lab, but being wide of the mark in the real world. All at extra cost in terms of design and development, testing and certification, ultimately paid for by the consumer. I've just sent an enquiry to the SIA asking where the limits came from, and asking them to comment on the higher NOx level from the Ecodesign stove, particularly with the current concern over high NOx levels from diesels in cities. I wonder what their answer will be? -- Jeff |
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New Woodburner Regulations
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/04/17 19:09, The Other Mike wrote: On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:16:35 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF TV? No? Was that because of the EU? Indirectly it was, the Krauts invented PAL, we managed perfectly well with black and white tv's. Anyone remember SECAM? Are the Russians still using it? |
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New Woodburner Regulations
On Fri, 21 Apr 2017 07:07:18 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote: On 20/04/17 19:09, The Other Mike wrote: On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:16:35 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF TV? No? Was that because of the EU? Indirectly it was, the Krauts invented PAL, we managed perfectly well with black and white tv's. Anyone remember SECAM? Somewhere amongst my sequence of memories. G.Harman |
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New Woodburner Regulations
On 20/04/2017 12:40, dennis@home wrote:
He also ignores that the regulations on vacs limit the power and require there to be more suction so making vacs perform better. OOI do you have a reference for the "more suction" bit? Just wondering how they define more suction... I can see you could trade off static suction against airflow for a given amount of power - but that may not make it perform better. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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New Woodburner Regulations
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote: Dave Plowman wrote: most consumers simply don't care. So why should the EU care more than the person paying the electricity bill? What % of energy is used by hoovering? I'd suggest to read up about the reasons behind such legislation. Rather than making up your own. -- *Some people are only alive because it is illegal to kill. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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New Woodburner Regulations
John Rumm wrote:
OOI do you have a reference for the "more suction" bit? Just wondering how they define more suction... Measured in 'Air Watts' presumably? ISTR dyson making reference to the relevant IEC standard when the first limit on vacuums was introduced. Remember, it gets cut further in September ... |
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New Woodburner Regulations
In article ,
The Other Mike wrote: On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 11:16:35 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF TV? No? Was that because of the EU? Indirectly it was, the Krauts invented PAL, we managed perfectly well with black and white tv's. PAL was developed at the request of the European Broadcast Union. The previous colour TV system, NTSC, had undergone extensive trials by the BBC etc and been found lacking. There's an obvious reason why a German maker spent large sums developing PAL as a European standard (incidentally first used in the UK, before Germany) and that was they actually invested in industry, unlike the UK which preferred to pay out as much as possible to shareholders. Hence there being no UK owned electronics company these days, while the descendants of Telefunken are still going strong. -- *Sometimes I wake up grumpy; Other times I let him sleep. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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