UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Old April 20th 17, 01:00 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2013
Posts: 23
Default New Woodburner Regulations

It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of
many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See:

http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/

This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of
condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be
interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real
advantages.

It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new
design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable
and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview.

Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires -
which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove.

Andrew

  #2   Report Post  
Old April 20th 17, 09:36 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Sep 2012
Posts: 7,054
Default New Woodburner Regulations

On Thursday, 20 April 2017 00:00:39 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of
many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See:

http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/

This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of
condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be
interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real
advantages.

It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new
design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable
and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview.

Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires -
which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove.

Andrew


Traditional wood stoves are very inefficient. 25% is typical.
Most of the inefficiency is due to quenching.
ie cooling the combustion gases before combustion is complete.
So there'slots of scope for improvement.
Difficulties arise because of the extreme variations in the fuel.
Also, room sealed stoves are a big advantage but not presently recognised.
  #3   Report Post  
Old April 20th 17, 09:51 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jun 2011
Posts: 139
Default New Woodburner Regulations

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:00:01 +0100, Andrew wrote:

It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of
many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See:

http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/

This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of
condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be
interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real
advantages.

It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new
design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable
and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview.

Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires -
which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove.

Andrew


it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all. The directive is aimed at reducing
energy consumption and largely aimed at electrically powered
appliances; pollution seems to be only considered peripherally.

Properly used, closed wood burners are fairly clean already.
Unfortunately there seems to be a large number of owners who burn wet
fuel and burn with to little air which will make any appliance,
however many regulations ir complies with smoke. The proper approach
to wood burner pollution is to ban them all in any but the smallest
community, they are a completely pointless lifestyle gimmick for most
people.
  #4   Report Post  
Old April 20th 17, 09:58 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Apr 2009
Posts: 29,521
Default New Woodburner Regulations

On 20/04/17 08:51, Bill Taylor wrote:
On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 00:00:01 +0100, Andrew wrote:

It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of
many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See:

http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/

This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of
condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be
interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real
advantages.

It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new
design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable
and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview.

Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires -
which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove.

Andrew


it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all. The directive is aimed at reducing
energy consumption and largely aimed at electrically powered
appliances; pollution seems to be only considered peripherally.

Properly used, closed wood burners are fairly clean already.
Unfortunately there seems to be a large number of owners who burn wet
fuel and burn with to little air which will make any appliance,
however many regulations ir complies with smoke. The proper approach
to wood burner pollution is to ban them all in any but the smallest
community, they are a completely pointless lifestyle gimmick for most
people.

Hahhahaha. The two new builds going yo here both are to have air sourced
heatpumps because oil boilers are now essentially banned on efficiency
grounds. Both have chimneys, for wood burners which will be the ONLY
source of heat if the electricity supply fails, which it does, quite
often, for periods of several hours due to overhead lines and trees and
weather.



--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.
  #5   Report Post  
Old April 20th 17, 10:30 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Sep 2008
Posts: 394
Default New Woodburner Regulations

On 20/04/17 00:00, Andrew wrote:
It seems new woodburner regulations may require the complete redesign of
many existing stoves if are to be sold post 2020. See:

http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com...d-air-quality/

This seems to be as radical for these products as the mandating of
condensing boilers was for domestic gas applicances. It will be
interesting to see how the additional costs stack against the real
advantages.

It would seem to favour those manufactures who provide a "trendy" new
design each year, and severely impact those who have produced reliable
and generally well loved and proven "classic" stoves - such as Clearview.

Ironically it does not address any issues associated with open fires -
which are less efficient than even a "poor" stove.

Andrew


Why do my hackles rise when I see *anything* with an "Eco" tag on it?

I had a look at the link provided. It didn't say that much so I went to
http://www.stoveindustryalliance.com/airquality/ where some figures
were provided. Down at the bottom of that page are four histograms (if
you can't read them because they are so small download the pdf) which
provide the "data" the comparisons are based on. What I find interesting
is just where the Ecodesign limit lines are placed. Where the Ecodesign
stoves do better (whatever that may mean) than the open fire and old
stove the limit line is placed above it and below them. Now have a look
at the NOx histogram on the bottom right. The Ecodesign stove is
actually worse than the older stove! So where is the limit line placed?
Above all of them - even the open fire. Anyone know why the limits are
placed where they are? Is there an EC Directive for them?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the latest kerfuffle with diesel
engines to do with high levels of NOx pollution they produce? Lucky we
aren't running cars fuelled by Ecodesign stoves, eh?

--

Jeff


  #6   Report Post  
Old April 20th 17, 11:00 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jun 2016
Posts: 2,557
Default New Woodburner Regulations

Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.


Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


  #7   Report Post  
Old April 20th 17, 11:13 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Apr 2009
Posts: 29,521
Default New Woodburner Regulations

On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.


Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation.

Ther is a vacuum cleaner called a Henry. It is exactly what a vacuum
cleaner is supposed to be. A creator of a vacuum, enough tips to suck
effectively on any surface, and a bag to hold the **** in. It has a
reliable easy to use cable storage built in too.

It costs less than half ant advertised make of vacuum cleaner and lasts
forever. Parts are available cheaply to fix it.,

How else can you render it obsolete than by declaring it has a more
powerful motor than it should have?

EU regulation is not about improving anything more than the profits of
manufacturers whose products have already saturated the market.


--
“it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalin’s Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.”

Vaclav Klaus
  #8   Report Post  
Old April 20th 17, 11:27 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: May 2008
Posts: 1,696
Default New Woodburner Regulations

On Thu, 20 Apr 2017 08:51:49 +0100, Bill Taylor
wrote:


Properly used, closed wood burners are fairly clean already.
Unfortunately there seems to be a large number of owners who burn wet
fuel and burn with to little air which will make any appliance,
however many regulations ir complies with smoke. The proper approach
to wood burner pollution is to ban them all in any but the smallest
community, they are a completely pointless lifestyle gimmick for most
people.


What would you define as a small community?
20 or so new age traveler types living in Yurts in a Welsh wood or the
typical village and its surrounds of between 1500 to 5000 people that
are dotted around Britain.
I live in one of the latter and the main fuel choice is electric,
bottled gas or oil.
Electric as primary heating is expensive despite what those bordering
on con artists suppliers of German storage heaters say, the equipment
of the latter two all most always needs a source of electric for them
to work so for me I have a wood burner that is not dependent on
electric supplied by overhead lines that are more prone to damage from
storms than underground supplies in most towns and cities.
The wood burner also supplies our hot water and it quite often is used
for a stew or similar meals as well, and most tea and coffee hot water
is heated on it.

I'd be quite annoyed if areas like this came under your "ban" as it
would mean getting in oil or LPG with all the gubbins that involves
and running a generator if the mains fails to keep the controls
working.
Now if you just mean the trendies in Islington and Hoxton who are
putting them in as a feature to show off then I may agree they are an
affectation but I'm still uneasy with the cry" ban it" because people
don't like something that others do. It is heard too often nowadays.
They will go out of fashion quick enough when the cheap labour source
to provide house cleaners dries up post Brexit and the trendies have
to empty their own ash.

G.Harman
  #9   Report Post  
Old April 20th 17, 11:49 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,301
Default New Woodburner Regulations

In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:


it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.


Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent' central
heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in their
sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.


It phased out low powered Hoovers, did it? Incandescent bulbs? Very odd I
can still buy the latter.

You really really really shouldn't believe everything you read in the Mail.

And you might also explain why forcing makers to improve the efficiency of
their products is a bad thing.

--
*If God had wanted me to touch my toes, he would have put them on my knees

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
  #10   Report Post  
Old April 20th 17, 12:16 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 32,301
Default New Woodburner Regulations

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


On 20/04/17 10:00, Andy Burns wrote:
Bill Taylor wrote:

it's odd that the Ecodesign directive doesn't seem to apply directly
to wood burning heaters at all.

Ecodesign is a broad EC project, it's been the reason for phasing out
incandescent lamps, low powered hoovers, expensive 'intelligent'
central heating pumps, etc ... woodburners are just the next thing in
their sights, along with kettles, hairdryers etc.

How to make all old kit obsolescent by regulation.


Old kit becomes obsolescent naturally. Anyone still using a 405 line VHF
TV? No? Was that because of the EU?

Well it's what happens when you are ruled by an unelected unaccountable
oligarchy. Why is anyone surprised. The oligarchy is in the pockets of
German big business, end of story.


No matter how often you tell a lie doesn't make it true

--
*Few women admit their age; fewer men act it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Woodburner glass newshound UK diy 4 January 4th 16 03:45 PM
WD40 in a woodburner Part Timer UK diy 35 October 25th 15 10:08 PM
Installing a woodburner puffernutter[_2_] UK diy 32 February 4th 14 01:02 AM
Woodburner Gurus Dave Liquorice[_2_] UK diy 23 January 15th 13 06:14 PM
gas fire that looks like a woodburner vbleau UK diy 5 January 27th 09 08:07 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:27 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2017 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"

 

Copyright © 2017