"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 20:54:35 -0000, Dave Liquorice
wrote:

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 15:20:19 +0000, wrote:

Are you sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv.

Ah, I wasn't aware that there was an intermediate distribution
voltage
between 11kV and 240V.

Wonder if H Bloomfield did a typo and meant 33Kv which is used
frequently.

There are a few intermediate voltages but I don't think it's very
common and is probably only in places that have had a supply for
around a centuary...

Here the primary substation is fed by a 33 kV line and back up 11 kV
line.
I think the 33 kV orginates at Penrith, the 11 kV from the primary at
Little Selkeld. The 11 kV has a regulator in circuit a couple of
miles from the primary substation. Even with the regulator our
voltage wangs about all over the shop when the back up 11 kV is being
used. Rises to above 255 at night and drops to 225 ish during the
day. 240 to 245 is the normal range. It was complaining about the
over voltage that lead me to finding out the 11 kV was fed from
Little Selkeld, as they dropped a couple of hundred volts off it
there and things got better (only 253 overnight) but doing that
reduces everyone else fed from that line so it didn't stay like that.
Presumably the regulator is hitting an end stop at night...

From the primamry substation the 11 kV distribution is constructed as
a collection of half a dozen or so interconnected rings. These rings
are normally operated as spurs with an auto reclosure on each one
near the primary. Manual operated air swtches that are normally open
or normally closed enable any section of line to be isolated or fed
from either end. There are a number of spurs, some branched, that can
only be fed from one end. We are on the end of one that only feeds
us.

Did you get anywhere with your complaint? I get 241V to 256V, which I
consider very poor since 230V is supposed to be the normal. It's enough
to regularly make my UPS put an overvoltage warning light on and step it
down itself. When I phoned them, they sent someone out in 30 minutes and
sounded worried on the phone, yet when the electrician arrived and
confirmed my voltage readings, he said "within legal limits, nothing we
can do, although if I was in charge I'd step it down a level".

Switch it off, and the net.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

Ahhhhh, Wodney is here with all the answers.

On 19/03/17 21:39, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that The Natural Philosopher formulated :
Completely wrong

There is no 3.3kV

No sorry, you are wrong. I have used it many times on large motors.

...in the grid.


--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

On 19/03/17 23:40, Graham Nye wrote:
On 2017-03-19 21:39, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
It happens that The Natural Philosopher formulated :
Completely wrong

There is no 3.3kV

No sorry, you are wrong. I have used it many times on large motors.

Were they being supplied by on-site transformers or local generators?
The discussion is about the distribution network which seems to skip
3.3 kV and starts at 11 kV.



3.3kV is used in some industrial kit. But its not a grid voltage.


--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

Graham Nye submitted this idea :
Were they being supplied by on-site transformers or local generators?
The discussion is about the distribution network which seems to skip
3.3 kV and starts at 11 kV.

Either, both or even direct from the supply.

One series of 3.3Kv sets I installed in the 1970's was Ambergate PS,
but that had its own local sub stations, two ss as I recall.

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 04:18:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:07:59 UTC, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
Despite extensive googling, there seems to be nothing that tells me how much
current flows along wires on a national grid pylon. They only list voltages.
Anybody know?

A 400 kV National Grid circuit may carry 1 kA in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 700 MW.
A 132 kV distribution circuit may carry 300 A in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 70 MW.
An 11 kV distribution circuit may carry 150 A in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 3 MW.
A 400 V final distribution circuit may carry 200 A in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 150 kW.

(Remember, these voltages are phase-to-phase voltages, the phase-to-earth voltages are 1.73 times lower. Thus (400 kV/1.73) x 1kA x 3 = 700 MW.)

http://www.emfs.info/what/terminology/ (site maintained by National Grid)

[Pylon type] L12 is effectively the L6 replacement will take twin conductors up to 850mm2, but all aluminium conductor rather than the heavier steel cored kind formerly used.

http://www.gorge.org/pylons/structure.shtml

Someone is being slightly economical with the truth at the emfs.info site. There
are 400kV overhead circuits in the UK rated at around 3600MVA short term post
fault so that equates to around 5000A.

--

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 21:12:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 19/03/17 20:12, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
expressed precisely :
Wonder if H Bloomfield did a typo and meant 33Kv which is used
frequently .

No, I meant 3.3Kv or 3Kv3. So far as I am aware, all 11Kv and up is on
metal poles.

Completely wrong

There is no 3.3kV

up to 33KV is on wooden poles

Next step up from 240V is 11KV 3 ph.

educate yourself

http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/E...troduction.pdf

They can use what ever is the most cost effective/efficient for the load
and distance involved.

Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used. In
some areas 66kV is also used alongside 33kV, the 66kV being run in some cases on
wooden poles.


https://library.ukpowernetworks.co.u...ork+Design.pdf

5.6 Voltage Rationalisation

5.6.1 6.6kV Networks
Where 6.6kV assets are to be replaced, 11kV rated plant, switchgear and cables
shall be used. All new or replacement transformers used on the 6.6kV system
should be dual ratio. Every endeavour should be made to remove 6.6kV rated
assets as part of any major reinforcement scheme that either involves the assets
directly, or offers the potential to decommission them as part of an associated
scheme. Each case will ultimately be considered on its merits and the costs
involved will be subject to formal approval as part of the capital authorisation
procedure.
5.6.2 2kV/3.3kV and 3.5kV Networks
These networks shall not be extended. Where these assets are to be replaced the
use of LV or 11kV rated switchgear and cables shall be used. Every endeavour
should be made to remove 2-3.5kV rated assets as part of any reinforcement
scheme that either involves the assets directly, or offers the potential to
decommission them as part of an associated scheme. Each case will ultimately be
considered on its merits and the costs involved will be subject to formal
approval as part of the capital authorisation procedure.

--

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:35:29 +0000, The Other Mike
Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used. In
some areas 66kV is also used alongside 33kV, the 66kV being run in some cases on
wooden poles.

Plus this, page 4

https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/...-Midlands.aspx

WPD West Midlands also has extensive 66kV networks. These networks cover large
rural areas, including the north Cotswolds, Worcestershire, Herefordshire and
the Welsh Marches. Networks at this voltage provide economic and reliable rural
systems, permitting long feeding distances and being of robust construction.
However, some parts of the 66kV network are ageing and may require replacement
over the next 10 years. WPD would consider reinforcement at the 66kV voltage
level or conversion to 132/11kV transformation depending on the solution
offering the optimum technical and economic value.

--

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 08:56:57 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

Graham Nye submitted this idea :
Were they being supplied by on-site transformers or local generators?
The discussion is about the distribution network which seems to skip
3.3 kV and starts at 11 kV.

Either, both or even direct from the supply.

One series of 3.3Kv sets I installed in the 1970's was Ambergate PS,
but that had its own local sub stations, two ss as I recall.

Map here of the distribution grid in that area as it is now with
colour codes for the various voltages etc.
https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/...ermal-Map.aspx

No mention of 3.3kV , what ever you worked on isn't in place any more
or wasn't part of the distribution network.
Have to say that as you were unaware that the vast majority of 11kV
and 33kV overhead lines in the UK are carried on wooden poles I'm not
how much credence we can put on your claim as indicated by "Are you
sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv." The general opinion
on here is that as far as distribution networks are concerned you are
wrong and even if there has been the odd bit of non std that only you
seem to know about it certainly isn't enough to justify your claim of
"more likely".

G.Harman

On 20/03/17 09:35, The Other Mike wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 21:12:10 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 19/03/17 20:12, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
expressed precisely :
Wonder if H Bloomfield did a typo and meant 33Kv which is used
frequently .

No, I meant 3.3Kv or 3Kv3. So far as I am aware, all 11Kv and up is on
metal poles.

Completely wrong

There is no 3.3kV

up to 33KV is on wooden poles

Next step up from 240V is 11KV 3 ph.

educate yourself

http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/E...troduction.pdf

They can use what ever is the most cost effective/efficient for the load
and distance involved.

Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used.

No. Were used. Once. Not any more.

In
some areas 66kV is also used alongside 33kV, the 66kV being run in some cases on
wooden poles.

Has been used. No longer


https://library.ukpowernetworks.co.u...ork+Design.pdf

5.6 Voltage Rationalisation

5.6.1 6.6kV Networks
Where 6.6kV assets are to be replaced, 11kV rated plant, switchgear and cables
shall be used. All new or replacement transformers used on the 6.6kV system
should be dual ratio. Every endeavour should be made to remove 6.6kV rated
assets as part of any major reinforcement scheme that either involves the assets
directly, or offers the potential to decommission them as part of an associated
scheme. Each case will ultimately be considered on its merits and the costs
involved will be subject to formal approval as part of the capital authorisation
procedure.
5.6.2 2kV/3.3kV and 3.5kV Networks
These networks shall not be extended. Where these assets are to be replaced the
use of LV or 11kV rated switchgear and cables shall be used. Every endeavour
should be made to remove 2-3.5kV rated assets as part of any reinforcement
scheme that either involves the assets directly, or offers the potential to
decommission them as part of an associated scheme. Each case will ultimately be
considered on its merits and the costs involved will be subject to formal
approval as part of the capital authorisation procedure.



--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 10:46:22 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used.

No. Were used. Once. Not any more.

In
some areas 66kV is also used alongside 33kV, the 66kV being run in some cases on
wooden poles.

Has been used. No longer

Oh FFS you yet again show you really are a clueless ****** on this and many
other things you claim to be 'an expert' on, one thing for sure is you clearly
have zero experience in the field of power engineering.

I could walk a couple of hundred yards and take a photo of a sign on the front
of a 3.3kV/415v substation, but it's ****ing it down and I simply cannot be
arsed and in any case you'd probably claim it had been photoshopped or was an
image from Victorian times. There is plenty of 66kV single circuit on wooden
poles and on pylons too.
--

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 13:14:25 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

NY has brought this to us :
Out here in a North Yorkshire village there seem to be 11 kV spurs, each
with a pole-mounted transformer to step down to 240V. Where I'm sitting I
can see the end of the 11 kV line and its transformer. Its 240V cables go
underground to houses on one side of the road (probably built in 1950s) and
then come above ground to 3-phase 240V overhead wires to the houses on the
other side of the road (1930s).

Are you sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv.

Underground can be 3.3kV but not to my knowledge as an overhead, the choices
there are 240v/415v 11kV 33kV 66kV and 132kV (for UK distribution networks)

Any other oddball voltages will be underground or as on site supplies. Power
stations for instance often have 11kV, 3.3kV and 415v switchboards, steel
rolling mills and chemical works have commonly been supplied at 275kV or 400kV
transformed down to various combinations of 33kV, 11kV, 6.6kV, 3.3kV and 415v
for use around the site.
--

The Natural Philosopher explained on 20/03/2017 :
Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used.

No. Were used. Once. Not any more.

Were used, suggests were installed. Once installed they are there until
replaced - which rather suggests I was correct in the matter of the
3.3Kv, though wrong in regards to what they installed on wooden poles.

on 20/03/2017, supposed :
Map here of the distribution grid in that area as it is now with
colour codes for the various voltages etc.
https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/...ermal-Map.aspx

No mention of 3.3kV , what ever you worked on isn't in place any more
or wasn't part of the distribution network.

Who suggested it was part of the general distribution network?

Not in place? I very much doubt that, the project was a major and very
expensive project, a show project.

I said the site had (from memory) possibly two transformers on site, to
feed the site. The run from the transformers was a matter of maybe
20yds to feed into my panels, which then fed 6x 3.3Kw variable speed
motors. I very much doubt that would even be shown on such a small
scale area map covering an entire county.

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 13:23:21 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher explained on 20/03/2017 :
Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used.

No. Were used. Once. Not any more.

Were used, suggests were installed. Once installed they are there until
replaced - which rather suggests I was correct in the matter of the
3.3Kv, though wrong in regards to what they installed on wooden poles.

Harry you'd be better off arguing with a three week old dead badger, you'd get a
more coherent and accurate reply on subjects like this than from TNP. 3.3kV
has IME always been an underground voltage in the UK, with indoor switchgear.
--

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 13:33:23 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:


https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/...ermal-Map.aspx

No mention of 3.3kV , what ever you worked on isn't in place any more
or wasn't part of the distribution network.

Who suggested it was part of the general distribution network?

That particular project you worked may not have been but you cannot
get away from that you interjected on this post from NY
:
Out here in a North Yorkshire village there seem to be 11 kV spurs, each
with a pole-mounted transformer to step down to 240V. Where I'm sitting I
can see the end of the 11 kV line and its transformer. Its 240V cables go
underground to houses on one side of the road (probably built in 1950s)

with "Are you sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv."
So it looks very much like that you started your contribitions to
this thread by commenting on the distribution network and only later
invoked your experience of one particular project by suggesting it's
rare use of 3.3kV = more likely.

G.Harman



Not in place? I very much doubt that, the project was a major and very
expensive project, a show project.

I said the site had (from memory) possibly two transformers on site, to
feed the site. The run from the transformers was a matter of maybe
20yds to feed into my panels, which then fed 6x 3.3Kw variable speed
motors. I very much doubt that would even be shown on such a small
scale area map covering an entire county.

On 20/03/17 13:33, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
on 20/03/2017, supposed :
Map here of the distribution grid in that area as it is now with
colour codes for the various voltages etc.
https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/...ermal-Map.aspx


No mention of 3.3kV , what ever you worked on isn't in place any more
or wasn't part of the distribution network.

Who suggested it was part of the general distribution network?

The original title of the thread
The person who claimed that overhead poles ran 'at 3.3kV'

Not in place? I very much doubt that, the project was a major and very
expensive project, a show project.

I said the site had (from memory) possibly two transformers on site, to
feed the site. The run from the transformers was a matter of maybe 20yds
to feed into my panels, which then fed 6x 3.3Kw variable speed motors. I
very much doubt that would even be shown on such a small scale area map
covering an entire county.

Thats all fair enough but the mistake was to claim that was a standard
grid voltage used in transmission. It isn't. And I am not sure it ever
was except in one or two legacy districts.

--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

On 20/03/17 13:35, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 13:23:21 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher explained on 20/03/2017 :
Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used.

No. Were used. Once. Not any more.

Were used, suggests were installed. Once installed they are there until
replaced - which rather suggests I was correct in the matter of the
3.3Kv, though wrong in regards to what they installed on wooden poles.

Harry you'd be better off arguing with a three week old dead badger, you'd get a
more coherent and accurate reply on subjects like this than from TNP. 3.3kV
has IME always been an underground voltage in the UK, with indoor switchgear.

Proof by assertion?

11KV round here. Underground. Watched em put in in

I can find no mention of 3.3KV grid ANYWHERE at all.

It's used primarily for motors and as an intermediate voltage in power
stations. Never for any distance transmission.

i.e. NOT as part of the grid.


--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

On 20/03/17 14:36, wrote:
On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 13:33:23 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:


https://www.westernpower.co.uk/docs/...ermal-Map.aspx

No mention of 3.3kV , what ever you worked on isn't in place any more
or wasn't part of the distribution network.

Who suggested it was part of the general distribution network?

That particular project you worked may not have been but you cannot
get away from that you interjected on this post from NY
:
Out here in a North Yorkshire village there seem to be 11 kV spurs, each
with a pole-mounted transformer to step down to 240V. Where I'm sitting I
can see the end of the 11 kV line and its transformer. Its 240V cables go
underground to houses on one side of the road (probably built in 1950s)

with "Are you sure it is 11Kv - more likely it will be 3.3Kv."
So it looks very much like that you started your contribitions to
this thread by commenting on the distribution network and only later
invoked your experience of one particular project by suggesting it's
rare use of 3.3kV = more likely.

G.Harman


Exactly. I've lived all out in the sticks where everything is up a pole
and I talk to all the engineers who fixed the broken stuff because I am
an electrical engineer and I am interested.

I have never ever even *heard* of 3.3Kv as part of a grid system. Inside
a factory or power station yes. Out on poles - never.



Not in place? I very much doubt that, the project was a major and very
expensive project, a show project.

I said the site had (from memory) possibly two transformers on site, to
feed the site. The run from the transformers was a matter of maybe
20yds to feed into my panels, which then fed 6x 3.3Kw variable speed
motors. I very much doubt that would even be shown on such a small
scale area map covering an entire county.


--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:35:24 -0000, The Other Mike wrote:

On Sat, 18 Mar 2017 04:18:04 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:07:59 UTC, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
Despite extensive googling, there seems to be nothing that tells me how much
current flows along wires on a national grid pylon. They only list voltages.
Anybody know?

A 400 kV National Grid circuit may carry 1 kA in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 700 MW.
A 132 kV distribution circuit may carry 300 A in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 70 MW.
An 11 kV distribution circuit may carry 150 A in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 3 MW.
A 400 V final distribution circuit may carry 200 A in each of its three phases, thus transmitting a power of 150 kW.

(Remember, these voltages are phase-to-phase voltages, the phase-to-earth voltages are 1.73 times lower. Thus (400 kV/1.73) x 1kA x 3 = 700 MW.)

http://www.emfs.info/what/terminology/ (site maintained by National Grid)

[Pylon type] L12 is effectively the L6 replacement will take twin conductors up to 850mm2, but all aluminium conductor rather than the heavier steel cored kind formerly used.

http://www.gorge.org/pylons/structure.shtml

Someone is being slightly economical with the truth at the emfs.info site. There
are 400kV overhead circuits in the UK rated at around 3600MVA short term post
fault so that equates to around 5000A.

That's short term. Presumably the above link is continuous capacity.

--
If you think people aren't creative, watch them try to re-fold a roadmap.

The Natural Philosopher explained :
Proof by assertion?

11KV round here. Underground. Watched em put in in

I can find no mention of 3.3KV grid ANYWHERE at all.

It's used primarily for motors and as an intermediate voltage in power
stations. Never for any distance transmission.

i.e. NOT as part of the grid.

However the subject under discussion moved away from what everyone
would understand to be the grid, to local distribution. It was on the
subject of local distribution that I responded.

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
news
The Natural Philosopher explained on 20/03/2017 :
Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also
used.

No. Were used. Once. Not any more.

Were used, suggests were installed. Once installed they are there until
replaced - which rather suggests I was correct in the matter of the 3.3Kv,

Not with your 'more likely'. In fact it is much more likely that
it is 11KV and not 3.3KV.

though wrong in regards to what they installed on wooden poles.

On 20/03/17 16:05, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Natural Philosopher explained :
Proof by assertion?

11KV round here. Underground. Watched em put in in

I can find no mention of 3.3KV grid ANYWHERE at all.

It's used primarily for motors and as an intermediate voltage in power
stations. Never for any distance transmission.

i.e. NOT as part of the grid.

However the subject under discussion moved away from what everyone would
understand to be the grid, to local distribution. It was on the subject
of local distribution that I responded.

Sorry but local distribution at 11kv is still part of the grid. Arguably
even the 240v feed from the last mile substation is still part of the grid.


--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 23:37:59 -0000, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

Even with the regulator our voltage wangs about all over the shop
when
the back up 11 kV is being used. Rises to above 255 at night and
drops
to 225 ish during the day. 240 to 245 is the normal range.

Did you get anywhere with your complaint? I get 241V to 256V, which I
consider very poor since 230V is supposed to be the normal.

They just moved the nominal voltage and tweaked the % +/- to pretty
much maintain the same "legal" range. Nothing if anything actually
changed. New supplies might aim for 230 more than 240.

It's enough to regularly make my UPS put an overvoltage warning light on
and step it down itself.

Its the UPS clicking that normally alerts me to the problem. B-)

When I phoned them, they sent someone out in 30 minutes and sounded
worried on the phone,

History: When we moved in we'd get through incandescant light bulbs
at about 1/month. Then I bought the UPS plugged it in and it went
straight into voltage reduction mode. Got out voltmeter, can't
remember what it was but close or over 253. Called the DNO, and there
was a knock on the door 2 hours later. Agreed my readings, peered at
pole transformer, made appointment for a few days later to adjust the
tappings. They came back adjusted the tapping as low as it would go
and we had something just over 240. Time passed and consumption rate
of incandescant light bulbs noticeably dropped.

yet when the electrician arrived and confirmed my voltage readings, he
said "within legal limits, nothing we can do, although if I was in
charge I'd step it down a level".

Didn't offer a voltage monitor? We've had one of those, twice, when
I've complained about the overnight voltage when the primary
substation is being fed from the 11 kV backup. Last time it happened
(up to 256 for several hours over night) they took quite a bit of
interest in the graphs I can produce from the logged UPS voltage
readings. There was a certain amount of head scratching and going to
look at the regulator and the tweak of the 11 kV feed at Little
Selkeld. Got a call from some one in an office and ened up emailing
daily plots to him.

Of course with the local primary on the main 33 kV feed there isn't a
problem and the voltage is very stable at 240 - 245. The voltage
monitor was in for a few days after the feed switched back and the
follow up call said yes it was high during the 33 kV maintenance
period but there wasn't a lot they could do. I've not been aware of
any over voltage since then, which either means the primary hasn't
been on the back up or it has and they've made some adjustments.

Each time I've reported over voltage they've had a man at the door
within hours. Same with outages and speed of supply restoration,
either by rerouting or repairs. We have been off supply for 36 hours
but there had been an ice storm that brought down the lines in
multiple places and the shock of the lines breaking snapped half a
dozen or so poles. One of which carried one of the air switches in
"our" section so wasn't just a rip the stump out, plant a new pole
and restring the lines. But they worked from dawn to dusk for a
couple to days to replace it.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 15:07:32 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 20/03/17 13:35, The Other Mike wrote:
On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 13:23:21 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher explained on 20/03/2017 :
Not only is 3.3kV used in the UK, but 2kV, 3.5kV and 6.6kV are also used.

No. Were used. Once. Not any more.

Were used, suggests were installed. Once installed they are there until
replaced - which rather suggests I was correct in the matter of the
3.3Kv, though wrong in regards to what they installed on wooden poles.

Harry you'd be better off arguing with a three week old dead badger, you'd get a
more coherent and accurate reply on subjects like this than from TNP. 3.3kV
has IME always been an underground voltage in the UK, with indoor switchgear.

Proof by assertion?

Better than your profuse verbal ******** as standard

11KV round here. Underground. Watched em put in in

600kV 400kV 275kV 66kV, 33kV 11kV 3.3kV 415v around here there and everywhere in
the UK. Involved in the design, operation and maintenance. Watched them put it
in over many decades not as an uniformed casual observer from behind a barrier.
No doubt some of those voltage levels will confuse the **** out of you. Feel
free to behave like demented chicken.

I can find no mention of 3.3KV grid ANYWHERE at all.

That's because you somehow think everything is on the internet. It's not.

It's used primarily for motors and as an intermediate voltage in power
stations. Never for any distance transmission.

No one said it was used for 'distance transmission' whatever the **** that
means. It's a distribution voltage used for short distance lightly loaded
undergrounds at many locations in the UK.

i.e. NOT as part of the grid.

If you maintain 11kV is 'part of the grid' as you have just done in a reply to
Harry B elsewhere then the 3.3kV network running a mile from the 33kV/11kV/3.3kV
substation to a brick bunker with a transformer, a bit of switchgear and fusing
is also 'part of the grid' that you have never seen nor heard of this
configuration is no real surprise as it's not on the internet.



--

On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 23:02:18 -0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 23:37:59 -0000, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

Even with the regulator our voltage wangs about all over the shop
when
the back up 11 kV is being used. Rises to above 255 at night and
drops
to 225 ish during the day. 240 to 245 is the normal range.

Did you get anywhere with your complaint? I get 241V to 256V, which I
consider very poor since 230V is supposed to be the normal.

They just moved the nominal voltage and tweaked the % +/- to pretty
much maintain the same "legal" range. Nothing if anything actually
changed. New supplies might aim for 230 more than 240.

They recently replaced the substation across the road from me, which moved the voltage further from 230 (higher).

Not sure why they replaced it. It doesn't look bigger, and the old one didn't look that old.

It's enough to regularly make my UPS put an overvoltage warning light on
and step it down itself.

Its the UPS clicking that normally alerts me to the problem. B-)

Same here, and before I got LED lighting everywhere, the CFL and incandescent lights changed brightness a little. I have the lighting circuits connected to it aswell, to increase the lifespan of the bulbs.

When I phoned them, they sent someone out in 30 minutes and sounded
worried on the phone,

History: When we moved in we'd get through incandescant light bulbs
at about 1/month. Then I bought the UPS plugged it in and it went
straight into voltage reduction mode. Got out voltmeter, can't
remember what it was but close or over 253. Called the DNO, and there
was a knock on the door 2 hours later. Agreed my readings, peered at
pole transformer, made appointment for a few days later to adjust the
tappings. They came back adjusted the tapping as low as it would go
and we had something just over 240. Time passed and consumption rate
of incandescant light bulbs noticeably dropped.

Sounds like you have a more sensible electrician than I do.

yet when the electrician arrived and confirmed my voltage readings, he
said "within legal limits, nothing we can do, although if I was in
charge I'd step it down a level".

Didn't offer a voltage monitor?

I gave him a log of my voltages over a week, which he believed as his meter agreed with mine.

We've had one of those, twice, when
I've complained about the overnight voltage when the primary
substation is being fed from the 11 kV backup. Last time it happened
(up to 256 for several hours over night) they took quite a bit of
interest in the graphs I can produce from the logged UPS voltage
readings. There was a certain amount of head scratching and going to
look at the regulator and the tweak of the 11 kV feed at Little
Selkeld. Got a call from some one in an office and ened up emailing
daily plots to him.

Of course with the local primary on the main 33 kV feed there isn't a
problem and the voltage is very stable at 240 - 245. The voltage
monitor was in for a few days after the feed switched back and the
follow up call said yes it was high during the 33 kV maintenance
period but there wasn't a lot they could do. I've not been aware of
any over voltage since then, which either means the primary hasn't
been on the back up or it has and they've made some adjustments.

Each time I've reported over voltage they've had a man at the door
within hours. Same with outages and speed of supply restoration,
either by rerouting or repairs. We have been off supply for 36 hours
but there had been an ice storm that brought down the lines in
multiple places and the shock of the lines breaking snapped half a
dozen or so poles. One of which carried one of the air switches in
"our" section so wasn't just a rip the stump out, plant a new pole
and restring the lines. But they worked from dawn to dusk for a
couple to days to replace it.

Ice storm? Where are you, the Outer Hebrides?

--
Local police hunting the "knitting needle nutter", who has stabbed six people in the last 48 hours, believe the attacker could be following some kind of pattern.

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 11:05:01 PM UTC+11, NY wrote:
"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 3/18/2017 11:18 AM, wrote wrote:
Despite extensive googling, there seems to be nothing that tells me how
much
current flows along wires on a national grid pylon. They only list
voltages.
Anybody know?

A 400 kV National Grid circuit may carry 1 kA in each of its three phases,
thus transmitting a power of 700 MW.
A 132 kV distribution circuit may carry 300 A in each of its three phases,
thus transmitting a power of 70 MW.
An 11 kV distribution circuit may carry 150 A in each of its three phases,
thus transmitting a power of 3 MW.
A 400 V final distribution circuit may carry 200 A in each of its three
phases, thus transmitting a power of 150 kW.

200A per phase at 400V (240V phase-to-neutral) doesn't sound very high. We
have a 60 A "company fuse" and I presume our neighbours do too. With an
electric fire (3 KW), an electric shower (maybe 8 kW) and an electric oven
and hob (maybe 6 KW), you'd be getting towards that limit but still
remaining legal. Now imagine lots of people roundabout doing that. It
doesn't take many houses to run up 200 A - or a total of 600 A across all
three phases. How many houses are typically fed from a single feed from the
substation or 11 kV-to-400V pole-mounted transformer? What is the average
current that is assumed per house when sizing up the number of houses that
can be fed from one substation circuit? I presume it not the full 60A of the
company fuse rating.

And Supergrid pylons (400 and 275 kV) are normally double circuit, aren't
they? Three wires on each side of the "tree".

How much of the route from the power station to the consumer is redundant
multi-circuit? At one point, typically, does it change over to a given house
only being fed by one set of wires, and if that line develops a fault there
is no backup circuit?

Is there a backup route as far as the final substation that transforms to 11
kV or 400V, or is it higher up the chain?

I presume for maximum redundancy they try to use feeds from different places
rather than two sets of wires carried on the same pylons, in case an
accident takes out *all* the wires (both circuits).

I'm intrigued at the way house gets its electricity supply. There is
overhead mains on wooden poles (originally four separate wires, now a single
fat cable with four wires) and our house is the middle house of two adjacent
blocks of three houses. There is a single feed from the wooden poles to the
end of one block, and then four wires running along the back of one block,
overhead across the gap to the next block and along there, with each house
taking its feed from neutral and one of the three phases - I think no two
adjacent houses are on the same phase. I suppose this is less unsightly than
every one of the six houses having its own single-phase feed from the street
poles.
"400V (240V phase-to-neutral)" is not right,
it is 415V (240V phase to neutral)

The Peeler wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 23:34:04 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

I thought it sounded a little ambiguous when I wrote it.

Rest assured that you ALWAYS sound like a complete idiot, whenever you
"write" something, Birdbrain!

I have been watching this discussion and only one poster has said
nothing of any consequence and has added nothing to the discussion.(I
wonder who?)

bm wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

Ahhhhh, Wodney is here with all the answers.


He is not far off,somewhere on this page is a rough guide to insulator
disks for various voltages.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insula...ity%29#History

The Peeler wrote:
On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 23:32:06 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:


I thought

There's the snag again, Birdbrain!

Still not seeing any sensible input.

The Peeler wrote:
On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 15:45:05 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:


That's short term. Presumably the above link is continuous capacity.

All I see is your continuous idiocy, Birdbrain!

You seem to have some sort of fixation, there would probably be a remedy
for this but away from usenet.

On Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:03:49 +1100, F Murtz wrote:

The Peeler wrote:
On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 15:45:05 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:


That's short term. Presumably the above link is continuous capacity.

All I see is your continuous idiocy, Birdbrain!

You seem to have some sort of fixation, there would probably be a remedy
for this but away from usenet.

I've killfiled JWS and The Peeler so if you'd shut TFU about JWS I won't
have to KF you.
I don't see their peurile garbage and I don't want your dubious obsession
reminding me of it, thank you.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

PeterC wrote:

I've killfiled JWS and The Peeler so if you'd shut TFU about JWS I won't
have to KF you.
I don't see their peurile garbage and I don't want your dubious obsession
reminding me of it, thank you.

+1

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

The Other Mike presented the following explanation :
If you maintain 11kV is 'part of the grid' as you have just done in a reply
to
Harry B elsewhere then the 3.3kV network running a mile from the
33kV/11kV/3.3kV
substation to a brick bunker with a transformer, a bit of switchgear and
fusing
is also 'part of the grid' that you have never seen nor heard of this
configuration is no real surprise as it's not on the internet.

Another example I remember of a 3.3Kv feed was used in Doncaster. The
2x PS's were a mile and 3 miles from the main road. Each had their own
sub-station transformed down to 415v all feeds were underground. The
motors used a Wauchope start system, but the mile long 3.3Kv also fed a
factory. They (tractor) factory was constantly complaining to the
supplier of the voltage dropping as the pumps kicked in. It was not
resolved whilst I was out there.

Another 3.3kv feed, on wooden poles, was used for a PS draining the
fens. The original pump had been a wind driven pump, that had then been
replaced with a pair of beautiful old diesel pumps, then finally a pair
of 415v electric pumps. They were almost always at least two pumps, to
allow for breakdowns and maintenance.

On 21/03/17 10:23, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The Other Mike presented the following explanation :
If you maintain 11kV is 'part of the grid' as you have just done in a
reply to
Harry B elsewhere then the 3.3kV network running a mile from the
33kV/11kV/3.3kV
substation to a brick bunker with a transformer, a bit of switchgear
and fusing
is also 'part of the grid' that you have never seen nor heard of this
configuration is no real surprise as it's not on the internet.

Another example I remember of a 3.3Kv feed was used in Doncaster. The 2x
PS's were a mile and 3 miles from the main road. Each had their own
sub-station transformed down to 415v all feeds were underground. The
motors used a Wauchope start system, but the mile long 3.3Kv also fed a
factory. They (tractor) factory was constantly complaining to the
supplier of the voltage dropping as the pumps kicked in. It was not
resolved whilst I was out there.

Another 3.3kv feed, on wooden poles, was used for a PS draining the
fens. The original pump had been a wind driven pump, that had then been
replaced with a pair of beautiful old diesel pumps, then finally a pair
of 415v electric pumps. They were almost always at least two pumps, to
allow for breakdowns and maintenance.

no examples of a 3.3kv feed in the UK that is shared between consumers
has yet been provided.

I maintain that these are private links.

The discussions is about grid feeds to multiple consumers, not a private
feed to specialised industrial customers

--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

Chris J Dixon wrote:
PeterC wrote:

I've killfiled JWS and The Peeler so if you'd shut TFU about JWS I won't
have to KF you.
I don't see their peurile garbage and I don't want your dubious obsession
reminding me of it, thank you.

+1

Chris

JWS initiated this lengthy discussion and so far the only one (except me
) who has not contributed one iota of sensible discussion has been
someone called The Peeler.JWS may annoy many but in this instance this
discussion would not have been.
Does The peeler ever initiate posts,or only react to JWS posts?

On Tue, 21 Mar 2017 00:41:36 -0000, wrote:

On Saturday, March 18, 2017 at 11:05:01 PM UTC+11, NY wrote:
"newshound" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 3/18/2017 11:18 AM, wrote wrote:
Despite extensive googling, there seems to be nothing that tells me how
much
current flows along wires on a national grid pylon. They only list
voltages.
Anybody know?

A 400 kV National Grid circuit may carry 1 kA in each of its three phases,
thus transmitting a power of 700 MW.
A 132 kV distribution circuit may carry 300 A in each of its three phases,
thus transmitting a power of 70 MW.
An 11 kV distribution circuit may carry 150 A in each of its three phases,
thus transmitting a power of 3 MW.
A 400 V final distribution circuit may carry 200 A in each of its three
phases, thus transmitting a power of 150 kW.

200A per phase at 400V (240V phase-to-neutral) doesn't sound very high. We
have a 60 A "company fuse" and I presume our neighbours do too. With an
electric fire (3 KW), an electric shower (maybe 8 kW) and an electric oven
and hob (maybe 6 KW), you'd be getting towards that limit but still
remaining legal. Now imagine lots of people roundabout doing that. It
doesn't take many houses to run up 200 A - or a total of 600 A across all
three phases. How many houses are typically fed from a single feed from the
substation or 11 kV-to-400V pole-mounted transformer? What is the average
current that is assumed per house when sizing up the number of houses that
can be fed from one substation circuit? I presume it not the full 60A of the
company fuse rating.

And Supergrid pylons (400 and 275 kV) are normally double circuit, aren't
they? Three wires on each side of the "tree".

How much of the route from the power station to the consumer is redundant
multi-circuit? At one point, typically, does it change over to a given house
only being fed by one set of wires, and if that line develops a fault there
is no backup circuit?

Is there a backup route as far as the final substation that transforms to 11
kV or 400V, or is it higher up the chain?

I presume for maximum redundancy they try to use feeds from different places
rather than two sets of wires carried on the same pylons, in case an
accident takes out *all* the wires (both circuits).

I'm intrigued at the way house gets its electricity supply. There is
overhead mains on wooden poles (originally four separate wires, now a single
fat cable with four wires) and our house is the middle house of two adjacent
blocks of three houses. There is a single feed from the wooden poles to the
end of one block, and then four wires running along the back of one block,
overhead across the gap to the next block and along there, with each house
taking its feed from neutral and one of the three phases - I think no two
adjacent houses are on the same phase. I suppose this is less unsightly than
every one of the six houses having its own single-phase feed from the street
poles.
"400V (240V phase-to-neutral)" is not right,
it is 415V (240V phase to neutral)

Or 400V (230V phase-to-neutral)?

--
TV takes over your life when you could be doing useful things like smoking crack and stealing car stereos.

On 21/03/2017 15:49, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2017 00:41:36 -0000, wrote:

"400V (240V phase-to-neutral)" is not right,
it is 415V (240V phase to neutral)

Or 400V (230V phase-to-neutral)?

Bloody EU, stealing 10 of our good British volts. That's why I voted brexit.

--
Max Demian

On Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:11:33 -0000, Max Demian wrote:

On 21/03/2017 15:49, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 21 Mar 2017 00:41:36 -0000, wrote:

"400V (240V phase-to-neutral)" is not right,
it is 415V (240V phase to neutral)

Or 400V (230V phase-to-neutral)?

Bloody EU, stealing 10 of our good British volts. That's why I voted brexit.

And we added 10 to theirs.

--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

On Tue, 21 Mar 2017 16:09:33 -0000, The Peeler wrote:

On Tue, 21 Mar 2017 15:49:05 -0000, Birdbrain Macaw (now "James Wilkinson"),
the pathological attention whore of all the uk ngs, blathered again:

"400V (240V phase-to-neutral)" is not right,
it is 415V (240V phase to neutral)

Or 400V (230V phase-to-neutral)?

NOTHING about you (and your birdbrain) is right, Birdbrain!

Please provide valid input to the conversation.

--
Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/