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  #81   Report Post  
Nick Maclaren
 
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Default Moss/Lichen on roof (was:victorian/edwardian houses or new houses?)

In article ,
Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:
The message
from "RichardS" noaccess@invalid contains these words:

Apparently lichens only grow in places of low atmospheric pollution,
so it's a good indicator of air quality, as well as any aesthetic
benefit.


but is the same true about moss? In fact, are moss and lichen synonymous?
I know that lichens are rarer than they once were.


No. Moss is a bryophyte, a true plant. Lichen is a symbiotic union of an
alga and a fungus - an unlikely combination as algae are plants and
fungi are in a completely separate order.


Kingdom, actually.

How unlikely would you consider mitochondria and chloroplasts?

I must say that I haven't noticed any evidence of lichens being any less
common than they were, and I've been interested in them since the early
'fifties.


I think that it depends where you are. I have heard that they have
gone down badly in what were rural areas but now are not, like the
Peak District.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.
  #82   Report Post  
Mike Mitchell
 
Posts: n/a
Default victorian/edwardian houses or new houses?

On Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:22:57 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

Jerry built now means shoddy. Jerry Bros did just that, built a flash
facade, sold it, and the rear was less so.


What gets me, in these kinds of arguments between "old" and "new"
build, is that there is no place on the web (or anywhere else) that
one can go to get a *definitive* list of approved builders/companies.
My pile of new house development literature is steadily growing, but I
still don't have much of an idea which companies to avoid like the
plague and which ones are the best. It seems a very hit and miss
affair. For example, the other day I read an article in some magazine
somewhere about the enormous number of snags in new builds (average
was around 106 snags). While these may well be minor, why are they
present at all? I would say, a dozen max could be put down to human
failing, but over a hundred? That smacks of someone not doing their
job properly, of the company skimping, and it's not like new
properties are cheap. It's not like buying a new stereo or even a new
cars. Properties cost a heck of a lot of money and it shouldn't be the
buyer's job to have to keep niggling the builder for two or three
years after occupation to get outstanding errors fixed. The errors
shouldn't be there in the first place if the company takes pride in
the quality of its product.

I still aim to buy new though, because I will be moving to a different
part of the country and searching for secondhand properties with all
the problems of chains, gazumping and so on over a couple of hundred
miles between me and the proposed area doesn't seem like my idea of
fun. Therefore, I shall move into the area into a new build, then get
my bearings and spend a year or two getting to know the area and spot
the real house of my dreams. Even a new build that's pretty crappy is
not likely to lose in value (unless Gordon Brown hasn't done his sums
right), so if one looks at a new build purely as a temporary measure,
I hope there won't be a problem.

MM
  #84   Report Post  
Bob Hobden
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.


"IMM" wrote in message
Vehicles "are" a very large polluters, especially when they are

concentrated
in cities, where masses of people live. Great progress is being made on
pollution from homes, in insulation standards, boiler efficiency , etc,

yet
there appears no immediate solution to the filthy car.


Sorry!? I think you have that the wrong way round.
The laws on vehicle pollution continue to get tougher and tougher and the
manufacturers have had to comply to continue to sell vehicles. There has
been massive strides in reducing pollution from cars, per mile travelled.
Catalytic Converters, Electronic Engine Control, lean burn engines, two
stage ignition, direct petrol injection, particle traps etc with more to
come. We are significantly reducing overall pollution figures despite a
massive increase in vehicles, now all we need to do is get rid of all those
old polluting buses.

As for central heating, I thought the figures were they produced 80% of the
greenhouse gasses produced in this country.

Technology is there
to make boilers very efficient and very clean burning, at no great cost,
also by increasing insulation standards, a homes emissions can be
drastically reduced. This can be done right now and people wonder why it

is
not being implemented. The car? Well apart from taxing larger engines, not
much at all can be done. There are some advanced concept engines around,
but the big corps have not yet taken up these ideas, tending not wanting

any
change at all.


Not much can be done about cars? What about the exhaust emmissions laws
which have worked amazingly and conuinue to get tougher, the MOT emissions
tests, that's a damn sight more than is happening with central heating.
Some people use boilers that are decades old and with no maintanance.

Fact is... All the major manufacturers and significant others are working
flat out on Fuel Cell engines which produce no pollution except steam.
Meanwhile they continue to develop even cleaner reciprocating engines.
The Hydrogen to run Fuel Cells can be produced using sunlight eventually, to
split water, so then we will be using the energy current account and not
even extra heat will be produced above that the sun provides.


Cars are even dirtier until the engine and exhaust is hot. So, in many
cases, when the car is used to go to Safeway or the school run, the thing

is
hardly up to temperature before being switched off. In this period they
pollute heavily. The current piston internal combustion engine needs
totally replacing.


True but that's as much a social problem. Anyway, see my comments above.

--
Regards
Bob

Use a useful Screen Saver...
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
and find intelligent life amongst the stars
359 data units completed.


  #85   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

Bob Hobden wrote:


Fact is... All the major manufacturers and significant others are working
flat out on Fuel Cell engines which produce no pollution except steam.



Wrong. The hydrogen has to be made. An innefficent process that burns as
much, if not more, fossil fuel than any other form of transport.

Better to use batteries, and then whilst the electricity generation is still

an issue, as with hydrogen, at least there is no need to build a huge

new infrasturcture of hydrogen supply and handling equipment.



A car that will do 300 miles between an overnigh charge of 9-10 hours at
20 Amps is technically feaisble and hads been demonstrated. Got about
600bhp as well, and under 1.5 tons weight.


Meanwhile they continue to develop even cleaner reciprocating engines.
The Hydrogen to run Fuel Cells can be produced using sunlight eventually, to
split water, so then we will be using the energy current account and not
even extra heat will be produced above that the sun provides.



I doubt that it can in any real quantity. The energy per unit area
falling on teh earh is probably best used to make e.g. biomass, which is
about teh most efficient process we have available.


However the real simple answer that dare not speak its name, is 'why the
**** do we need to go anywhere at all' and the answer is, mostly we don't.

Lets face it most of what we do could be done in front of a console from
home, if we had to.




  #86   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default victorian/edwardian houses or new houses?


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Jerry Built wrote:

IMM wrote:

The Neutered Pillockofer wrote:
[snip stuff to do with pros. and cons. of modern/old hosuses]
[ ribble and loam morgage]
How many of those are around? Most was lathe & plaster.



Lots of P&L is still about today & is OK. Lots of plasterboard, an
old invention, is too. Lots of plasterboard collapses in only 30-40
years. What's your point?

Modern multi-braced roof trusses are cheap, and adequate, but won't
allow you to add a room in the attic like substantial victorian ones
might.
So? Modern timbers are far superior to Victorian houses.



What? In what way?

Do machine tiles really outlast welsh slate?
Some modern houses still have slate on them. Spanish.



How is modern Spanish slate superior, or even equal, to the Welsh
slate used in the past for roofing?


Welsh is best.




---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.558 / Virus Database: 350 - Release Date: 02/01/2004


  #87   Report Post  
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
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Default Moss/Lichen on roof (was:victorian/edwardian houses or new houses?)

The message
from (Nick Maclaren) contains these words:

No. Moss is a bryophyte, a true plant. Lichen is a symbiotic union of an
alga and a fungus - an unlikely combination as algae are plants and
fungi are in a completely separate order.


Kingdom, actually.


Order, according to my reading, but I'd go for kingdom if given the
choice, as it seems more appropriate.

How unlikely would you consider mitochondria and chloroplasts?


In lichens? Logically, I'd consider chloroplasts and mitochondria
universal, since they are both present in the green and blue-green algae
which make up part of a lichen. The algae in lichens can be cultivated
separately, but AFAIK the fungal element will germinate but not continue
developing to maturity. I presume that mitochondrial DNA is present in
fungi, but chloroplasts are not, hence the value to the fungus of the
symbiotic arrangement.

I must say that I haven't noticed any evidence of lichens being any less
common than they were, and I've been interested in them since the early
'fifties.


I think that it depends where you are. I have heard that they have
gone down badly in what were rural areas but now are not, like the
Peak District.


While I have stopped many times in the Peak District, I've never done so
with lichens in mind. Radio waves, yes.

I hadn't noticed the areas I've stopped in to be even remotely urbanised.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
  #88   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.


"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message


Vehicles "are" a very large polluters,
especially when they are concentrated
in cities, where masses of people live.
Great progress is being made on
pollution from homes, in insulation
standards, boiler efficiency , etc,
yet there appears no immediate solution
to the filthy car.


Sorry!? I think you have that the wrong way round.


No.

The laws on vehicle pollution continue
to get tougher and tougher and the
manufacturers have had to comply to
continue to sell vehicles.


Not tough enough, the Internal combustion engine is only around 30%
efficient, and the emissions are highly polluting because of the small
explosions it creates (not continuous burn).

There has been massive strides in reducing
pollution from cars, per mile travelled.


They are still highly inefficient and pollute heavily.

Catalytic Converters, Electronic Engine Control,
lean burn engines, two stage ignition, direct
petrol injection, particle traps etc with more to
come.


They are twiddling around the edges of a flawed highly inefficient design.

We are significantly reducing overall
pollution figures despite a
massive increase in vehicles, now
all we need to do is get rid of all those
old polluting buses.


Pollution is still high and efficiency woefully low.

As for central heating, I thought the figures
were they produced 80% of the
greenhouse gasses produced in this
country.


Not in a million years. CH output is very low. Natural gas is the main CH
fuel, and this is the cleanest fuel by a mile.

Technology is there to make boilers very
efficient and very clean burning, at no great cost,
also by increasing insulation standards, a
homes emissions can be drastically reduced.
This can be done right now and people
wonder why it is not being implemented.
The car? Well apart from taxing larger engines,
not much at all can be done. There are some
advanced concept engines around,
but the big corps have not yet taken up
these ideas, tending not wanting
any change at all.


Not much can be done about cars?
What about the exhaust emmissions laws
which have worked amazingly and conuinue
to get tougher, the MOT emissions
tests, that's a damn sight more than is happening
with central heating.


Emission equipment still is just twiddling around the edges. See above.

Some people use boilers
that are decades old and with no maintanance.


A natural gas boiler can go for many, many years and still be quite clean
burning. Modern boilers are super efficient, and emissions super clean too.
The efficient of gas boilers rose by about 30% in a few years. Lets see if
GM can do that with a sill piston engine.

Fact is... All the major manufacturers and
significant others are working
flat out on Fuel Cell engines which produce
no pollution except steam.


MIT realsed a paper that fuel cells research has not come up with the goods
and diesel and gasoline engines will have top fill the bill in the short to
medium term. The US government gave billions to auto makers to squander.
They don't want change. They should not be given research money at all.
The technology should researched by other organisations and legislation to
make them adopt the technology.

Meanwhile they continue to develop
even cleaner reciprocating engines.


Still twiddling around the edges. No major breakthroughs yet, despite some
nice, more efficient, and running, concept engines around.

http://conceptengine.tripod.com/
http://www.deadbeatdad.org/eliptoid/

The Russians have come up a Rotary engine that is the reverse of the wankel,
Instead of a an elliptical chamber and triangular rotor, it is the reverse.
the seals are in the engine block, and can be readily changed. Good for
Heat and power applications. The Russians make two normal Wankel engines
for aircraft and helicopters.

The Australians have come up with a good improvement on the piston engine,
not using a crank shaft and or swivelling con-rods. No real figures as yet,
but production imminent. An auto engine is currently being tested in a
Proton car donated by Proton.
http://www.revetec.com/website/

Cars are even dirtier until the engine and
exhaust is hot. So, in many cases, when
the car is used to go to Safeway or the
school run, the thing is hardly up to temperature
before being switched off. In this period they
pollute heavily. The current piston internal
combustion engine needs totally replacing.


True but that's as much a social problem.


No. the engine is highly polluting until fully hot which takes many miles.



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.558 / Virus Database: 350 - Release Date: 02/01/2004


  #89   Report Post  
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:
Bob Hobden wrote:


Fact is... All the major manufacturers and significant others are working
flat out on Fuel Cell engines which produce no pollution except steam.


Wrong. The hydrogen has to be made. An innefficent process that burns as
much, if not more, fossil fuel than any other form of transport.


Better to use batteries, and then whilst the electricity generation is still


an issue, as with hydrogen, at least there is no need to build a huge


new infrasturcture of hydrogen supply and handling equipment.


And just how do you think electricity to charge the batteries is
produced? With a loss approaching 30% at every stage: thermal value of
fuel for power station to power delivered at charger (taking in power
loss in transmission lines), charging the accumulator, discharging the
accumulator all taken into account, the net result is a great deal more
pollution to propel your so-called clean electric vehicle.

Unless, of course, *YOU* can differentiate between the reciprocating
electrons which are being excited by wind or hydro power........

A car that will do 300 miles between an overnigh charge of 9-10 hours at
20 Amps is technically feaisble and hads been demonstrated. Got about
600bhp as well, and under 1.5 tons weight.


And?

Meanwhile they continue to develop even cleaner reciprocating engines.
The Hydrogen to run Fuel Cells can be produced using sunlight
eventually, to
split water, so then we will be using the energy current account and not
even extra heat will be produced above that the sun provides.



I doubt that it can in any real quantity. The energy per unit area
falling on teh earh is probably best used to make e.g. biomass, which is
about teh most efficient process we have available.


Much more efficient to burn the hydrogen in a reciprocating (or rotary)
engine than to convert it through a fuel cell to run an electric motor,
though electrically propelled vehicles do have the potential to convert
the slowing down process back into usable power.


However the real simple answer that dare not speak its name, is 'why the
**** do we need to go anywhere at all' and the answer is, mostly we don't.


Lets face it most of what we do could be done in front of a console from
home, if we had to.


And I suppose the goods we need will be delivered through the telephone
wires too? When I go shopping I visit a number of outlets. I can see
what I want to buy, and reject what had interested me from its
description. I generally share a car with a friend's family anyway,
doubling the efficiency of a trip. Well, since he has a family, more
than doubling it.

Sorry, your dream will never catch on.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
  #90   Report Post  
Nick Maclaren
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

In article ,
Bob Hobden wrote:
"IMM" wrote in message
Vehicles "are" a very large polluters, especially when they are

concentrated
in cities, where masses of people live. Great progress is being made on
pollution from homes, in insulation standards, boiler efficiency , etc,

yet
there appears no immediate solution to the filthy car.


Sorry!? I think you have that the wrong way round.
The laws on vehicle pollution continue to get tougher and tougher and the
manufacturers have had to comply to continue to sell vehicles. There has
been massive strides in reducing pollution from cars, per mile travelled.
Catalytic Converters, Electronic Engine Control, lean burn engines, two
stage ignition, direct petrol injection, particle traps etc with more to
come. We are significantly reducing overall pollution figures despite a
massive increase in vehicles, now all we need to do is get rid of all those
old polluting buses.


I suggest that you take the effort to find out the facts behind the
government and motor lobby propaganda. That is completely untrue.
Here are a few of the major reasons, but I shall not follow up much.
If you want to know the science behind what I am saying, I will answer
if I can, but I will not play Blair and Howard.

1) An increasing number of cars are fitted with power steering
and brakes, and (worse) air conditioning. In addition to increasing
the fuel consumption, it means that engines need to be left running
when the car is stopped in traffic. Not all are as bad as Citroen,
but it is now rare for engines to be switched off in traffic jams.

2) Catalytic converters virtually eliminate carbon monoxide, but
increase the amount of nitrogen oxides. Worse, they work only after
the engine has warmed up (about 5 miles) and the average trip in the
UK is about 3 miles. Also, they don't work at all well when the engine
is idling (see (1). The reason that they "reduce pollution" is the
the government is very careful to measure only what they do reduce.

I will give you that an INCIDENTAL effect has been the removal of lead
and sulphur but, as someone with breathing problems, I can witness that
pollution for a given amount of traffic is getting worse.

3) The various regulations have the effect of increasing the weight
of vehicles, discouraging more economical two-wheeled transport (both
motorcycles and bicycles, ridden on the road). I believe that it would
now be cheaper for me to get a HGV licence than a motorcycle one, and I
am a very "low risk" person. And cycling is now finished, as a form of
medium-distance commuting (3-10 miles), and that is DIRECTLY due to the
changes in regulations and attitudes of the "powers that be."

Other people have pointed out the errors in your "pollution-free" car
theory. All it does is move the pollution from the suburbs to the
power station, though I agree that doing so COULD be used to reduce
pollution. I know of no plans that any government has, and definitely
not the UK, to do so.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


  #91   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

Bob Hobden wrote:


Fact is... All the major manufacturers and significant others are working
flat out on Fuel Cell engines which produce no pollution except steam.


Wrong. The hydrogen has to be made. An innefficent process that burns as
much, if not more, fossil fuel than any other form of transport.


Better to use batteries, and then whilst the electricity generation is still


an issue, as with hydrogen, at least there is no need to build a huge


new infrasturcture of hydrogen supply and handling equipment.


And just how do you think electricity to charge the batteries is
produced? With a loss approaching 30% at every stage: thermal value of
fuel for power station to power delivered at charger (taking in power
loss in transmission lines), charging the accumulator, discharging the
accumulator all taken into account, the net result is a great deal more
pollution to propel your so-called clean electric vehicle.



Well first of all, because it isn't 30% at every stage.

Thermal efficiency of a modern power station is up to 65% - more if you
can use the waste heat to e.g. heat water for the neighborhood.

Elecricity generators and motors can achieve over 90%, and transformers
etc are typically around the 95% plus mark.

I am not sure on distribution losses. Theortecically those can be as low
as you like, by use of fatter or supercinducting cables.

My extensive experience of charge/dishcarge of secondary cells suggests
that 90% convesrion or better ins not uncommon.

The big things in favour of all electric cars tho are

(i) the initial electricity generation can be done by many different
things - from windmills to nuclear power stations, as well as burning
non fossil fuels (biomass)

(ii) its a lot easier to scrub atmospheric pollutants from a power
station flue than from a car exhaust. That doesn';t affect the hydrigen
versus electric car argment tho.

(iii) we already have an electrical distribution system that has huge
off peak energy availability. And that is precsiely when we would be
charging our cars up. Essentally tow electrckettles overnight is all it
takes power wise, to get a full days motoring (unless you intend to
drive to scoitland, in which case the electric car uis stll not able to
cut teh mustard, although it is feasible to fully rechage current cells
in about one hour at e.g. a specially equipped 'service station'



Unless, of course, *YOU* can differentiate between the reciprocating
electrons which are being excited by wind or hydro power........



Hydrogen would use electricity in greater quantities, needs an
infrastructire to distribute and store it, It simpkly isn't there as a
road fuel. Fuel cells are possibly better, but they don't seem to work
yet and they have top produce some end producs that need disposal. And
they stll use fossil fuel. OR very expemsive synthetic fuel.



A car that will do 300 miles between an overnigh charge of 9-10 hours at
20 Amps is technically feaisble and hads been demonstrated. Got about
600bhp as well, and under 1.5 tons weight.


And?



Its here, it works. It needs nothing extra to be used immediately. It
simply shifts teh burden of energy back to teh power stations, where it
can actually be dealt with in a planned way, according to whatever
policy you have in mind.

Its just horrendously expensive on batteries right now. However the
technology is advancing at huge rates, it has been done, it can be done,
and I actually costed out how much it would cost ME to do it. Under
£100,000 using multiple cell phone type batteries. If trhat cannoty be
knocked down ny a gfactor of 5 I would be very surprised...



Meanwhile they continue to develop even cleaner reciprocating engines.
The Hydrogen to run Fuel Cells can be produced using sunlight
eventually, to
split water, so then we will be using the energy current account and not
even extra heat will be produced above that the sun provides.




I doubt that it can in any real quantity. The energy per unit area
falling on teh earh is probably best used to make e.g. biomass, which is
about teh most efficient process we have available.


Much more efficient to burn the hydrogen in a reciprocating (or rotary)
engine than to convert it through a fuel cell to run an electric motor,
though electrically propelled vehicles do have the potential to convert
the slowing down process back into usable power.



Yes, but generating the hydrogen is inefficient in the first place, as
is the means of delivering it.

How much desle does it take to deliver each liter ifdiesel to your pump/

How much ti drive there and collect it?

Its cheaper to deliver electricty than almost anything else.




However the real simple answer that dare not speak its name, is 'why the
**** do we need to go anywhere at all' and the answer is, mostly we don't.


Lets face it most of what we do could be done in front of a console from
home, if we had to.


And I suppose the goods we need will be delivered through the telephone
wires too? When I go shopping I visit a number of outlets. I can see
what I want to buy, and reject what had interested me from its
description. I generally share a car with a friend's family anyway,
doubling the efficiency of a trip. Well, since he has a family, more
than doubling it.



Well, I don't. Apart from fresh food, and touchy-feely items, 90% of
what i buy is done on the net now. I make my living off it now. Days go
by when I don't even get into the car.


The economies of scale really work with delivery driving. One van, going
from depot to door, can carry as much as 15 cars going to te shops and
back.

One worker, sitting at a PC, not only saves (in our case) about 3500
quid a year in transport charges, but 4 hours a day commute time, not to
mention all the hours sitting in the bog, chatting near the coffee
machine etc etc.

We reckoned that 20% more productivity at 65% of the cost was the
difference between home working and going to work.



Sorry, your dream will never catch on.



It has. In my case, and in millions of others. E-shopping and home
working is steadily becoming not 'unsual' but 'minority normal'

Give it 5 years..and some tax breaks to encourage it...





  #92   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

Nick Maclaren wrote:

In article ,
Bob Hobden wrote:

"IMM" wrote in message

Vehicles "are" a very large polluters, especially when they are

concentrated

in cities, where masses of people live. Great progress is being made on
pollution from homes, in insulation standards, boiler efficiency , etc,

yet

there appears no immediate solution to the filthy car.

Sorry!? I think you have that the wrong way round.
The laws on vehicle pollution continue to get tougher and tougher and the
manufacturers have had to comply to continue to sell vehicles. There has
been massive strides in reducing pollution from cars, per mile travelled.
Catalytic Converters, Electronic Engine Control, lean burn engines, two
stage ignition, direct petrol injection, particle traps etc with more to
come. We are significantly reducing overall pollution figures despite a
massive increase in vehicles, now all we need to do is get rid of all those
old polluting buses.


I suggest that you take the effort to find out the facts behind the
government and motor lobby propaganda. That is completely untrue.
Here are a few of the major reasons, but I shall not follow up much.
If you want to know the science behind what I am saying, I will answer
if I can, but I will not play Blair and Howard.

1) An increasing number of cars are fitted with power steering
and brakes, and (worse) air conditioning. In addition to increasing
the fuel consumption, it means that engines need to be left running
when the car is stopped in traffic. Not all are as bad as Citroen,
but it is now rare for engines to be switched off in traffic jams.



No issue there. But people never used to switch off engines in jams
anyway. And you don't need steering when the car is staitonary..


2) Catalytic converters virtually eliminate carbon monoxide, but
increase the amount of nitrogen oxides. Worse, they work only after
the engine has warmed up (about 5 miles) and the average trip in the
UK is about 3 miles. Also, they don't work at all well when the engine
is idling (see (1). The reason that they "reduce pollution" is the
the government is very careful to measure only what they do reduce.



I don't think you are correct on that. The NO stuff anyway. The biggest
benefirt is that they do (once hot) redice hydrocarbon emmissions that
are teh bigger causes of smog. Not disagreeing with your main point tho.


I will give you that an INCIDENTAL effect has been the removal of lead
and sulphur but, as someone with breathing problems, I can witness that
pollution for a given amount of traffic is getting worse.



I agree on that. But I have noticed something different. I can drive the
M25 on a sunday, and not be badly affected. But on a weekday.....its hell.

The difference? No diesels. Diesels produce emormous quantities of very
nasty pollution and are not subject to legislation.



3) The various regulations have the effect of increasing the weight
of vehicles, discouraging more economical two-wheeled transport (both
motorcycles and bicycles, ridden on the road). I believe that it would
now be cheaper for me to get a HGV licence than a motorcycle one, and I
am a very "low risk" person. And cycling is now finished, as a form of
medium-distance commuting (3-10 miles), and that is DIRECTLY due to the
changes in regulations and attitudes of the "powers that be."



I don't actually agree there either. Tother half's Fiat Punto is more
economical, with its power steering, and lighter, than - say - a morris
minor of 50 years ago, or indeed a Mini of 30 years ago. And faster an
better braked than any of my 60's sports cars - MG midgets etc.

I agree on cycling. Too many cars for it to be safe.



Other people have pointed out the errors in your "pollution-free" car
theory. All it does is move the pollution from the suburbs to the
power station, though I agree that doing so COULD be used to reduce
pollution. I know of no plans that any government has, and definitely
not the UK, to do so.




I thimk a two pronged attack is called for - to reduce overall need to
drive, which I frmly believe will actually come about naturally as more
an more people use the net to do what a car used to. It worts for me.

And a radical switch to electric cars. No polluton at teh point of
drive, but, as you pioint out, shifting the pollution back to the power
gerenating stations. Where IMHO it is MUCH better addressed.

Cars acn omly run on a limited rtange of fules, at limited efficiency
due to the weight of making the realy efficient engnes, Power staons can
run on almost anythig and the weight is not an issue. They don't suffer
from idling, intermittent use, and so on. In short everything about
electric cars is ideal for car use. They only use energy when moving,
they produce no noise or effluents, (or much less) and it is even
possible to use regenerative braking to charge th ebatteros when slowing
them down, although the economics of that are yet to be proven.

Performance with lithium polymer cells is more than adequate - in fact
it is stupendous. Distribution of energy exists in the national grid.
Overnight charging would actually improve power staion efficiency as it
happens when other electrical uses are low, so power stations run
continuosly - much better for efficiency. The only unknown to me is the
energy cost and lifetime of battery production and recycling. But I
doubt it is worse than making e.g aluminium for car engines, or steel
for transmissions.

The cars are simpler too - all wheel drive with motors integarted into
the hubs, no need for gearboxes by and large, or transmissions. In short
its a simpler beast. One enormous battery pack, 4 motors and a bit of
power electronics. That replaces engine, cooling system, transmiision,
axles - in short most of the heavy bulky bits. No maintenance, apart
from replacing defective cells and so on. No oil changes, or plug
changes. Performance with most of te weight slung low under the cahssis,
and a motor on every wheel, with de facto traction control - its a rally
drivers dream come true. No gears to go, no clutch to go. And easy
access to better than 800bhp if you need it, or the ability to trickle
along at 90% efficiency at much lower power levels. £00 miles + range on
an overnight charge.

If YOU could get one of these at 20 grand that cost 1/4 of the cost of
a petrol car to run, would you not buy one? (on cheap rate electricity I
reckon about 15 quid to 'fill the tank' for 300 mile range). I wold,
like a bloody shot!








Regards,
Nick Maclaren.



  #93   Report Post  
Jaques d'Alltrades
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:

And just how do you think electricity to charge the batteries is
produced? With a loss approaching 30% at every stage: thermal value of
fuel for power station to power delivered at charger (taking in power
loss in transmission lines), charging the accumulator, discharging the
accumulator all taken into account, the net result is a great deal more
pollution to propel your so-called clean electric vehicle.


Well first of all, because it isn't 30% at every stage.


Thermal efficiency of a modern power station is up to 65% - more if you
can use the waste heat to e.g. heat water for the neighborhood.


Elecricity generators and motors can achieve over 90%, and transformers
etc are typically around the 95% plus mark.


At optimum levels, and only the very best and most expensive - and how
many manufacturers use that sort of quality of component?

I am not sure on distribution losses. Theortecically those can be as low
as you like, by use of fatter or supercinducting cables.


Superconducting cables can be as low as zero (for 99,99% pure niobium at
liquid nitrogen temperatures), but the environmental cost of keeping
them in the superconductor range would far outweigh the gain.

My extensive experience of charge/dishcarge of secondary cells suggests
that 90% convesrion or better ins not uncommon.


The big things in favour of all electric cars tho are


(i) the initial electricity generation can be done by many different
things - from windmills to nuclear power stations, as well as burning
non fossil fuels (biomass)


But burning hydrogen, or even a hydrocarbon in an internal combustion
engine will still be less polluting.

(ii) its a lot easier to scrub atmospheric pollutants from a power
station flue than from a car exhaust. That doesn';t affect the hydrigen
versus electric car argment tho.


Then what happens to the scrubbed-out pollutants, I wonder? And
incedentally, scrubbing pollutants from that volume of exhaust gas
requires a gigantic investment in plant and running power, and it's my
belief that that investment will never 'repay' the amount of
energy/pollution required for its construction.

(iii) we already have an electrical distribution system that has huge
off peak energy availability. And that is precsiely when we would be
charging our cars up. Essentally tow electrckettles overnight is all it
takes power wise, to get a full days motoring (unless you intend to
drive to scoitland, in which case the electric car uis stll not able to
cut teh mustard, although it is feasible to fully rechage current cells
in about one hour at e.g. a specially equipped 'service station'


I've said it before in another forum: if you bothered to use a
spellchecker, your posts would be readable. It takes too long to reply
yo one of your posts point-by-point.

/rest of it snipped. Life is too short/

And thread killed.

--
Rusty
Open the creaking gate to make a horrid.squeak, then lower the foobar.
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/hi-fi/
  #94   Report Post  
Mary Fisher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Moss/Lichen on roof (was:victorian/edwardian houses or new houses?)


"RichardS" noaccess@invalid wrote in message
. ..
"Neil Jones" wrote in message
m...
Andy Hall wrote in message

. ..

That's no real issue and can easily be removed. I quite like to see
a certain amount of lichens on roof tiles. It makes them look more
interesting.....


I agree.


Apparently lichens only grow in places of low atmospheric pollution,


That's not true.


but is the same true about moss?


No.

In fact, are moss and lichen synonymous?


No.

Mary


  #95   Report Post  
Nick Maclaren
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote:

No issue there. But people never used to switch off engines in jams
anyway. And you don't need steering when the car is staitonary..


I remember when they did. If nothing else, they would overheat if
you didn't. And, in the case of cars like the Citroen, I am afraid
that you DO need the engine when stationary and not parked.

2) Catalytic converters virtually eliminate carbon monoxide, but
increase the amount of nitrogen oxides. Worse, they work only after
the engine has warmed up (about 5 miles) and the average trip in the
UK is about 3 miles. Also, they don't work at all well when the engine
is idling (see (1). The reason that they "reduce pollution" is the
the government is very careful to measure only what they do reduce.


I don't think you are correct on that. The NO stuff anyway. The biggest
benefirt is that they do (once hot) redice hydrocarbon emmissions that
are teh bigger causes of smog. Not disagreeing with your main point tho.


I didn't say NO, but nitrogen oxides. Some are produced in the engine,
and they may be changed in valency but will not be destroyed, and some
will be added in the converter. You get slightly more, but a different
set - and lean-burn engines produce more, too, unless great effort is
taken to reduce that effect.

I agree on that. But I have noticed something different. I can drive the
M25 on a sunday, and not be badly affected. But on a weekday.....its hell.

The difference? No diesels. Diesels produce emormous quantities of very
nasty pollution and are not subject to legislation.


Yes, they are, but it is much weaker. The fines are risible for a
transport company. Blame Whitehall, again :-(

I agree on cycling. Too many cars for it to be safe.


That's not the reason, because the drop has occurred as much in areas
where there has been no increase in the number of cars. Saturation is
saturation.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.


  #96   Report Post  
N. Thornton
 
Posts: n/a
Default victorian/edwardian houses or new houses?

"Jerry Built" ] wrote in message . ..
IMM wrote: The Neutered Pillockofer wrote:


Modern multi-braced roof trusses are cheap, and adequate, but won't
allow you to add a room in the attic like substantial victorian ones

might.


So? Modern timbers are far superior to Victorian houses.


What? In what way?



Hi. I dont think there were any building regs covering timber sizing
100 or 150 years ago, and some of the woodwork on these old places
I've seen has had people peeing in their boots (figuratively .

I saw one Vic house with twisted snaking 3" beams supporting the
upstairs floors, and IIRC they were something like 15 feet long. One
or two had rotted through as well. The chap who owned it said that
when he pulled the plaster off, he was amazed the beams had supported
the floor without it collapsing.

6" floor joists are common in the better Vic houses, which is still
smaller than you'll find on new builds, but not a problem. Its just a
bit less soundproof.

The biggest diffrence is probably in the roof. There are Vic houses
around that wouldnt have the least chance of meeting todays load
requirements, but if they've stayed up, they're still with us.

If I'm correct, there really were no regs concerning this 100 years
ago. OTOH if its survived 100 years, thats a pretty good vote of
confidence.


Regards, NT
  #97   Report Post  
Andrew
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

In article , Bob Hobden
writes

"IMM" wrote in message
Vehicles "are" a very large polluters, especially when they are

concentrated
in cities, where masses of people live. Great progress is being made on
pollution from homes, in insulation standards, boiler efficiency , etc,

yet
there appears no immediate solution to the filthy car.


Sorry!? I think you have that the wrong way round.

snip
Catalytic Converters, Electronic Engine Control, lean burn engines, two

I thought the EU forced the UK to ditch lean-burn technology and adopt
their ideas involving expensive catalysts.
stage ignition, direct petrol injection, particle traps etc with more to
come. We are significantly reducing overall pollution figures despite a
massive increase in vehicles, now all we need to do is get rid of all those
old polluting buses.

As for central heating, I thought the figures were they produced 80% of the
greenhouse gasses produced in this country.
Technology is there
to make boilers very efficient and very clean burning, at no great cost,
also by increasing insulation standards, a homes emissions can be
drastically reduced. This can be done right now and people wonder why it

is
not being implemented. The car? Well apart from taxing larger engines, not
much at all can be done. There are some advanced concept engines around,
but the big corps have not yet taken up these ideas, tending not wanting

any
change at all.


Not much can be done about cars? What about the exhaust emmissions laws
which have worked amazingly and conuinue to get tougher, the MOT emissions
tests, that's a damn sight more than is happening with central heating.
Some people use boilers that are decades old and with no maintanance.

Air transport is a far worse offender than modern road vehicles, and all
totally tax free. Bare that in mind the next time you pop into the
supermarket and buy those exotic fruits and baby vegetables.

However for real pollution, try travelling on the Victoria line of the
London underground if you really want your eyes to smart with
particulate crap
--
Andrew
  #98   Report Post  
Bob Hobden
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.


"Jaques wrote in message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:
Bob Hobden wrote:


Fact is... All the major manufacturers and significant others are

working
flat out on Fuel Cell engines which produce no pollution except steam.


Wrong. The hydrogen has to be made. An innefficent process that burns as
much, if not more, fossil fuel than any other form of transport.


Not quite true, fuel cells don't burn anything and Hydrogen can be obtained
from the usual sources, LPG, Petrol, Natural Gas, methane, methanol etc by
the use of a reformer which is significantly more efficient and less
polluting than when the same fuel is burnt.


Better to use batteries, and then whilst the electricity generation is

still

an issue, as with hydrogen, at least there is no need to build a huge


new infrasturcture of hydrogen supply and handling equipment.


And just how do you think electricity to charge the batteries is
produced? With a loss approaching 30% at every stage: thermal value of
fuel for power station to power delivered at charger (taking in power
loss in transmission lines), charging the accumulator, discharging the
accumulator all taken into account, the net result is a great deal more
pollution to propel your so-called clean electric vehicle.


Electricity produced by/from Fuel Cells (probably the Molten Carbonate type)
which will significantly improve the efficiency of fossil fuel Power
Stations. Some cells are already in use for small scale static power
stations.

Check out http://www.crest.org/articles/static...008081206.html for
lots of Info on Fuel Cells.

A car that will do 300 miles between an overnigh charge of 9-10 hours at
20 Amps is technically feaisble and hads been demonstrated. Got about
600bhp as well, and under 1.5 tons weight.


And?

Meanwhile they continue to develop even cleaner reciprocating engines.
The Hydrogen to run Fuel Cells can be produced using sunlight
eventually, to
split water, so then we will be using the energy current account and

not
even extra heat will be produced above that the sun provides.



I doubt that it can in any real quantity. The energy per unit area
falling on teh earh is probably best used to make e.g. biomass, which is
about teh most efficient process we have available.


I understand it would take a battery of solar cells the size of 25% of the
UK to power the whole world from sunlight, especially in a desert area with
high sunlight levels. Such electricity could be used directly in vehicles
with normal batteries or to produce Hydrogen from water to power fuel cells
( which are batteries too).


Much more efficient to burn the hydrogen in a reciprocating (or rotary)
engine than to convert it through a fuel cell to run an electric motor,
though electrically propelled vehicles do have the potential to convert
the slowing down process back into usable power.


Totally wrong, and ever heard of regenerative braking, had it on coaches for
years and there are other more recent developments in this area relating to
normal cars too.



However the real simple answer that dare not speak its name, is 'why the
**** do we need to go anywhere at all' and the answer is, mostly we

don't.

Lets face it most of what we do could be done in front of a console from
home, if we had to.


Unlike you I don't want to spend my life in a prison, even a very nice one.


And I suppose the goods we need will be delivered through the telephone
wires too? When I go shopping I visit a number of outlets. I can see
what I want to buy, and reject what had interested me from its
description. I generally share a car with a friend's family anyway,
doubling the efficiency of a trip. Well, since he has a family, more
than doubling it.

Sorry, your dream will never catch on.

That's not a dream it's a nightmare.

--
Regards
Bob

Use a useful Screen Saver...
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
and find intelligent life amongst the stars
359 data units completed.


  #99   Report Post  
Bob Hobden
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.


"Nick wrote in message after me .
..
The laws on vehicle pollution continue to get tougher and tougher and the
manufacturers have had to comply to continue to sell vehicles. There has
been massive strides in reducing pollution from cars, per mile travelled.
Catalytic Converters, Electronic Engine Control, lean burn engines, two
stage ignition, direct petrol injection, particle traps etc with more to
come. We are significantly reducing overall pollution figures despite a
massive increase in vehicles, now all we need to do is get rid of all

those
old polluting buses.


I suggest that you take the effort to find out the facts behind the
government and motor lobby propaganda. That is completely untrue.


No it's not! everything I've written above is true. Ignoring the data, if
you simply look at the petrol consumption of ,say, a 1600cc car 30 years ago
( about 26mpg) and compare it with a modern engine ( about 40+mpg) you will
find significant improvements in efficiency which also does relate to the
pollution produced, even without catalists in the exhaust system. The fact
that these modern cars also have much more inside them consuming power
proves my point further.
..

2) Catalytic converters virtually eliminate carbon monoxide, but
increase the amount of nitrogen oxides. Worse, they work only after
the engine has warmed up (about 5 miles) and the average trip in the
UK is about 3 miles. Also, they don't work at all well when the engine
is idling (see (1). The reason that they "reduce pollution" is the
the government is very careful to measure only what they do reduce.

I will give you that an INCIDENTAL effect has been the removal of lead
and sulphur but, as someone with breathing problems, I can witness that
pollution for a given amount of traffic is getting worse.


Probably due to the significant rise in the use of Diesel engines (in cars)
which produce lots of small particules (soot) which get into our lungs and
clog them up. Particle Traps are on their way to cure this problem, I think
it's one of the French manufacturers that is already installing them. I too
have developed Asthma in the last 10 years.


3) The various regulations have the effect of increasing the weight
of vehicles, discouraging more economical two-wheeled transport (both
motorcycles and bicycles, ridden on the road). I believe that it would
now be cheaper for me to get a HGV licence than a motorcycle one, and I
am a very "low risk" person. And cycling is now finished, as a form of
medium-distance commuting (3-10 miles), and that is DIRECTLY due to the
changes in regulations and attitudes of the "powers that be."

Other people have pointed out the errors in your "pollution-free" car
theory. All it does is move the pollution from the suburbs to the
power station, though I agree that doing so COULD be used to reduce
pollution. I know of no plans that any government has, and definitely
not the UK, to do so.


Nobody has pointed out a flaw at all, to me they just show they don't know
about Fuel Cells, their possibilities, uses and how fast the technology is
advancing so there is little chance of agreement on this topic.

Oh, and with power stations also going over to the use of Fuel Cells
pollution from them will reduce too. :-)

--
Regards
Bob

Use a useful Screen Saver...
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/
and find intelligent life amongst the stars
359 data units completed.



  #100   Report Post  
IMM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...

"Nick wrote in message after me .
.
The laws on vehicle pollution continue to get tougher and tougher and

the
manufacturers have had to comply to continue to sell vehicles. There

has
been massive strides in reducing pollution from cars, per mile

travelled.
Catalytic Converters, Electronic Engine Control, lean burn engines, two
stage ignition, direct petrol injection, particle traps etc with more

to
come. We are significantly reducing overall pollution figures despite a
massive increase in vehicles, now all we need to do is get rid of all

those
old polluting buses.


I suggest that you take the effort to find out the facts behind the
government and motor lobby propaganda. That is completely untrue.


No it's not! everything I've written above is true.


It is, but out of context and with little relation to the big picture.

Ignoring the data, if
you simply look at the petrol consumption of ,say, a 1600cc car 30 years

ago
( about 26mpg) and compare it with a modern engine ( about 40+mpg) you

will
find significant improvements in efficiency which also does relate to the
pollution produced, even without catalists in the exhaust system. The fact
that these modern cars also have much more inside them consuming power
proves my point further.


Because there have been minor improvements in a flawed highly inefficient
piston engine design over the past 30 years, you appear to think this
exonerates the internal combustion engine, or it is efficient or clean or
something. It is NOT.

The engine it at the end of its lifespan, it should have gone 50 years ago.

2) Catalytic converters virtually eliminate carbon monoxide, but
increase the amount of nitrogen oxides. Worse, they work only after
the engine has warmed up (about 5 miles) and the average trip in the
UK is about 3 miles. Also, they don't work at all well when the engine
is idling (see (1). The reason that they "reduce pollution" is the
the government is very careful to measure only what they do reduce.

I will give you that an INCIDENTAL effect has been the removal of lead
and sulphur but, as someone with breathing problems, I can witness that
pollution for a given amount of traffic is getting worse.


Probably due to the significant rise in the use of Diesel engines (in

cars)
which produce lots of small particules (soot) which get into our lungs and
clog them up. Particle Traps are on their way to cure this problem, I

think
it's one of the French manufacturers that is already installing them. I

too
have developed Asthma in the last 10 years.


3) The various regulations have the effect of increasing the weight
of vehicles, discouraging more economical two-wheeled transport (both
motorcycles and bicycles, ridden on the road). I believe that it would
now be cheaper for me to get a HGV licence than a motorcycle one, and I
am a very "low risk" person. And cycling is now finished, as a form of
medium-distance commuting (3-10 miles), and that is DIRECTLY due to the
changes in regulations and attitudes of the "powers that be."

Other people have pointed out the errors in your "pollution-free" car
theory. All it does is move the pollution from the suburbs to the
power station, though I agree that doing so COULD be used to reduce
pollution. I know of no plans that any government has, and definitely
not the UK, to do so.


Nobody has pointed out a flaw at all, to me they just show they don't know
about Fuel Cells, their possibilities, uses and how fast the technology is
advancing so there is little chance of agreement on this topic.

Oh, and with power stations also going over to the use of Fuel Cells
pollution from them will reduce too. :-)


As I mentioned in another post, according to MIT the fuel cell is not viable
yet for vehicles, which are the world's worst polluters.

Far more efficient Rotary and Stirling diesel and petrol units appear the
best options to fill the gap. The Stirling is external combustion, which is
much a clean on the burn. Even the Rev Tec Aussie engine, a piston engine,
improves thermal efficiency from 25% to over 50%.



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.558 / Virus Database: 350 - Release Date: 02/01/2004




  #101   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:


And just how do you think electricity to charge the batteries is
produced? With a loss approaching 30% at every stage: thermal value of
fuel for power station to power delivered at charger (taking in power
loss in transmission lines), charging the accumulator, discharging the
accumulator all taken into account, the net result is a great deal more
pollution to propel your so-called clean electric vehicle.


Well first of all, because it isn't 30% at every stage.


Thermal efficiency of a modern power station is up to 65% - more if you
can use the waste heat to e.g. heat water for the neighborhood.


Elecricity generators and motors can achieve over 90%, and transformers
etc are typically around the 95% plus mark.


At optimum levels, and only the very best and most expensive - and how
many manufacturers use that sort of quality of component?



Its not that hard. Efficiency is mostly about using bigger dimensions of
wire and iron for a given power: Wire and iron is not expensive, and in
power generation it is sensible to spend a few extra quid to save a few
thousand a year on fuel costs.

The tackiest electric motors I have are no worse than 50% efficient -
better than an IC engine.



I am not sure on distribution losses. Theortecically those can be as low
as you like, by use of fatter or supercinducting cables.


Superconducting cables can be as low as zero (for 99,99% pure niobium at
liquid nitrogen temperatures), but the environmental cost of keeping
them in the superconductor range would far outweigh the gain.


My extensive experience of charge/dishcarge of secondary cells suggests
that 90% convesrion or better ins not uncommon.


The big things in favour of all electric cars tho are


(i) the initial electricity generation can be done by many different
things - from windmills to nuclear power stations, as well as burning
non fossil fuels (biomass)


But burning hydrogen, or even a hydrocarbon in an internal combustion
engine will still be less polluting.



Well no it isn't, because it produces water vapour at the least in the
car, secondly the hydrogen has to be produced - from electricity.

If you look at the overall energy equations, you use more to generate
hydrogen from electricity than to generate the electricty.

Also, as I said, distributing hyrogen requires a whole new
infrastructure, Its not safe to do it in a simple tanker. Nor can it
simply be stored in underground tanks.




(ii) its a lot easier to scrub atmospheric pollutants from a power
station flue than from a car exhaust. That doesn';t affect the hydrigen
versus electric car argment tho.


Then what happens to the scrubbed-out pollutants, I wonder?



Well, one of the ways of getting rid of Co2 from burining e.g. oil that
has nbeen proposed, is to put it back underground.

Atomically, pollution is a zero sum game. We had all that carbon in teh
ground, and no one worried. Now its in the air and we do. Its used up
atmospheric oxyhgen (and hydrogen does that to make water) and so
depending on wthere the lower oxygen or higher CO2 is the problem, you
can e.g. make carbonates and bury em.

Essentially scruvbbing power stations flues makes thungs like sulphuric
acid - useful in luquid form, bad in teh air - and nitric acid.

This is BETTER than buring in a car where all teh issues raised make it
innecicient and expensive to remove, but not ideal.

I think we need to look at this iin a sensible perespective.

There is nothing wrouong witha hydrogen car, if hydrogen were just lying
around waiting to be burned, except that eventual;ly you would use up
all teh ocygen in teh air. At least with burning carbomn, we know rthat
plants eat teh stuff and release oxygen...


Hydrogen and electric produce on teh one hand just water, and on the
other hand nothing, as waste products, used as fuel, at the point of usage.

BUT when it comes to teh energy analysis of producing electricity and
hydrogen, and distributing them, as far as I know the only way to mass
produce hydrogen is by electrolysis.


So the hydrogen has electricity as its starting point anyway, and cannot
be 100% efficient in generation.

And te storage of hydrogen is non trivial.

The only reason hydrogen is being considered is because it can be burned
in not-too-different- cars. The car industry is amongst the stupidest
and most conservative there is. They are only thinkning of teh least
investment to produce the next lump of tin that will 'meet regulations'.

WE I hope, are talking about saving energy, and lowering global pollution.

When you look at it, actually the tidiest thing is nuclear. Produces no
pollution at all, apart from warm water, apart from that niggling litle
problem of radioactive spent fuel and things what got near it. Crack
that one and you are away...it may be that in the end we have to acept
it as the lesser of many evils.


And
incedentally, scrubbing pollutants from that volume of exhaust gas
requires a gigantic investment in plant and running power, and it's my
belief that that investment will never 'repay' the amount of
energy/pollution required for its construction.



Well, that depends on legislation doesn't it? In the micro scale. On the
macro scale saving the planet might be worth it?

If for example you calculted that teh loss of property and erosion of
coastlines diue to gl;obal warming was costing the inusrance industry
say 50 nubillion a year, then teh insurance companies might decide to
fund the costs themselves...out of sheer self interest. Or the
givernments decide that the taxpayer should bear the cost, and get it
back in reduced insurance premiunms. Etc.






(iii) we already have an electrical distribution system that has huge
off peak energy availability. And that is precsiely when we would be
charging our cars up. Essentally tow electrckettles overnight is all it
takes power wise, to get a full days motoring (unless you intend to
drive to scoitland, in which case the electric car uis stll not able to
cut teh mustard, although it is feasible to fully rechage current cells
in about one hour at e.g. a specially equipped 'service station'


I've said it before in another forum: if you bothered to use a
spellchecker, your posts would be readable. It takes too long to reply
yo one of your posts point-by-point.



That is the neatest way of ducking out of a losing argument I have ever
seen.


/rest of it snipped. Life is too short/

And thread killed.




  #102   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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Bob Hobden wrote:



Wrong. The hydrogen has to be made. An innefficent process that burns as
much, if not more, fossil fuel than any other form of transport.


Not quite true, fuel cells don't burn anything and Hydrogen can be obtained
from the usual sources, LPG, Petrol, Natural Gas, methane, methanol etc by
the use of a reformer which is significantly more efficient and less
polluting than when the same fuel is burnt.



Fuel cells do chemically transform fuels into waste products. The fact
that its at a temperature where no flame is produced doesn't inviolate
the chemistry. Perhaps I should have placed "burn" in inverted commas...

LPG, Natural Gas, Methane - these are all fossil fuels that require the
bound carbon to be tirned into usually CO2 to release stored energy. It
makes no odds how its done.


Al you are gaining is a slight improvement in efficiency.



Electricity produced by/from Fuel Cells (probably the Molten Carbonate type)
which will significantly improve the efficiency of fossil fuel Power
Stations. Some cells are already in use for small scale static power
stations.



That is a sound idea. I have no argument against fuel cells used in
static power generation as a more efficient way of making electricity. I
just think that hydrogen, and mobile fuel cells, is in teh first case
too expensive, and in te second place not a long term solution.

We need to concentrate on

(i) efficient and low pollution electrity generatin

and

(ii) electric cars to use it using existing (enhanced) infrastructure and

(iii) not using cars at all.




I understand it would take a battery of solar cells the size of 25% of the
UK to power the whole world from sunlight, especially in a desert area with
high sunlight levels. Such electricity could be used directly in vehicles
with normal batteries or to produce Hydrogen from water to power fuel cells
( which are batteries too).



Excellent idea if it were feasible. Solar cells are alarmingly
inefficient and expensive though. I think you will find that pounbd for
pound, its ceaper to e.g. grow and coppice willow, and burn it or turn
it into methanol, than cover the same acreage of ground with solar
cells, AND get more energy out of it too.





Much more efficient to burn the hydrogen in a reciprocating (or rotary)
engine than to convert it through a fuel cell to run an electric motor,
though electrically propelled vehicles do have the potential to convert
the slowing down process back into usable power.


ever heard of regenerative braking, had it on coaches for
years and there are other more recent developments in this area relating to
normal cars too.


That is what I was describing? Not sure why you appearded to contradict
whilst actually saying the same thing..:-)




However the real simple answer that dare not speak its name, is 'why the
**** do we need to go anywhere at all' and the answer is, mostly we

don't.

Lets face it most of what we do could be done in front of a console from
home, if we had to.


Unlike you I don't want to spend my life in a prison, even a very nice one.



No one said you had to. I merely questin teh need to :-

(i) take the car out to run teh klids 2 miles to school
(ii) take th car out to get to the staion to got to work
e(iii) take the car out again to do teh shopping
(iv) take the car out to pick teh kids up from school again.
(v) take the car out at teh weekend to drive round 14 different sheds
only to find that the thing you wanted could be got from Screwfix online
without using teh car at all.

Knock out all thise unneccesary journeys, and taking the car out to
actually enjoy your friends company, go down the pub, go out to a show -
well the roads are now clearer, speeds aare higher, stress and power use
is lower, and the world is not so polluted.






And I suppose the goods we need will be delivered through the telephone
wires too? When I go shopping I visit a number of outlets. I can see
what I want to buy, and reject what had interested me from its
description. I generally share a car with a friend's family anyway,
doubling the efficiency of a trip. Well, since he has a family, more
than doubling it.

Sorry, your dream will never catch on.


That's not a dream it's a nightmare.



Its not. Its how it will be. We spend a huge amount of our lives driving
to no real benefit and for no real reason iher than thats the way its
done. No one says we stop doing it entirely, just stop doing 75% of it.





  #103   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

Bob Hobden wrote:


No it's not! everything I've written above is true. Ignoring the data, if
you simply look at the petrol consumption of ,say, a 1600cc car 30 years ago
( about 26mpg)



My 30 year old triumph spitfire in stock form at leagal speeds would do
better than 40mpg. It didnt after I had tuned it up to 110bhp,
admittedly :-) BMC A and B series engines were also capable of well in
excess of 40mpg.

Ford 1600 engines were alwasy carp its true, but at least you coudl
tweak em up to ridiculous power easily. Fuel injection has been the
greatest benefit.


and compare it with a modern engine ( about 40+mpg) you will
find significant improvements in efficiency which also does relate to the
pollution produced, even without catalists in the exhaust system. The fact
that these modern cars also have much more inside them consuming power
proves my point further.



And elecric fans, to redice power loss on cooling fans.

However, we now use fatter tyres (more rolling resistance) and travel
fatser, and in general spend so much time in congestion that average
fuel consumption is in fact worse.




Probably due to the significant rise in the use of Diesel engines (in cars)
which produce lots of small particules (soot) which get into our lungs and
clog them up. Particle Traps are on their way to cure this problem, I think
it's one of the French manufacturers that is already installing them. I too
have developed Asthma in the last 10 years.



I totally agree on that one. Catalytic convertors work extremely well in
places like califirnia, where temperatures are higher and the big
problem was unburnt hydrocarbons producing smog.

They arer wuite good in countries where average jorneys are long enough
for them to get up to temp as well.

Not so here, and the stuff in fuel now to repalce lead, is highly toxic
and carcinogenic ...diesels are disgusting. They nee filters and
catalysts too.




Nobody has pointed out a flaw at all, to me they just show they don't know
about Fuel Cells, their possibilities, uses and how fast the technology is
advancing so there is little chance of agreement on this topic.



No, ther are more issues at stake than lung irritation. On the global
warming front, you are still using fossil fuels with fuel cells.

I attended a 'clean energy' conference some years back attended by
represntatives from teh finacial, oil, and automotive industries.

The oil men want fuel cells, because it menas they still get to sell oil.

The automotive men wanted hydrigen, because it meant they could still
sell cars.

The financial lot, shook their heads and walked out early. "If its sll
tio be enfirced by legistlation, the government will ensure its barely
profitable"

I asked the one question - "what is the most energy efficient way of
transporting a ton overland" "Railways" muttered someone from the
back...and that was it.

Not one preson in that room was actually interested in what was the
ultimately sanest transport policy. "Not my problem".

All these latrenatives are being touted by groupps with vested interests
in preserving their installed base of manufacturing capability.

Ther IS no installed base of electric ras manufactures: Up till a couple
of years ago there wasn't a suitable battery. There is now.







Oh, and with power stations also going over to the use of Fuel Cells
pollution from them will reduce too. :-)



No argument there.
And windmills, and tide power and hydroelectric and burning biomass and
burning rubbish - especially paper, and CHP and and and...a million ways
to make power that cannot be put in a car.

As you may know, I have a little hobby. Flying electric model aircraft.
Up to tow years ago there was no way to even approach the power and
energy densities of a tank of fuel. There is now. And its tipped the
balance so that applied to cars, it comes out damn near equal overall in
terms of power and range to weight of a tank of petrol and what is
needed to make it turn the wheels..

I can buy all I need to use this technology NOW.

I can't buy a fuel cell.

I am sure that I weill be able to buy both in a few years time, BUT with
fuel cells still using FUEL I am convinced teh electric will win ot,
because you can generate electricity inso many more ways than "burning"
FUEL.






  #104   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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IMM wrote:


Because there have been minor improvements in a flawed highly inefficient
piston engine design over the past 30 years, you appear to think this
exonerates the internal combustion engine, or it is efficient or clean or
something. It is NOT.

The engine it at the end of its lifespan, it should have gone 50 years ago.

snip



As I mentioned in another post, according to MIT the fuel cell is not viable
yet for vehicles, which are the world's worst polluters.

Far more efficient Rotary and Stirling diesel and petrol units appear the
best options to fill the gap. The Stirling is external combustion, which is
much a clean on the burn. Even the Rev Tec Aussie engine, a piston engine,
improves thermal efficiency from 25% to over 50%.



What you have failed to realise, is that even these are only stopgaps too.

At the very best, a fuel BURNING engine delivers only 60%

efficiency - maybe a little more. The rest is waste heat.


If you had goine to a snotty uni, where the theory is taught, you would
understand that any heat engine - and all the above are heat engines -
has its efficiency dictated by the ratio of the temperature of burn to
the echaust temperature. Especially as that is why a 'condensing boiler'
is built the way it is.

The big picture is about energy conservation, especially in terms of
waste heat, and the irreversible (in the short to medium term) problem
if taking fossilised carbon out of the ground and pumping it into the air.

To solve that you need to

- use less.
- burn plants you grew last year.
- generate power by means that don't generate waste heat OR
- use waste heat to replace the use of fuel elsewhere (CHP)

Use of the engines described does not solve any of these apart from, in
a minor way, the first.

Fuel cells can solve many of the above, but in the end. electricity is
bets because it generates very little waste heat when used to generate
mechanial motion.

The issues then become how to generate electricity without using fossil
fuel and/or heat engines. Feul cells are not heat engines, but usually
use fossil fuel. Nuclear power doesn't use fossil fuel, but does use a
heat engine. windmills do neither, but are ugly, of variable power, and
woefully inefficient in terms of space used. Water and wave power does
neither, but is localised as to its applicability. solar cells are even
ore woefully inneficient, but there mat be better technology coming..
burning domestc rubbish and biomass is good as it doesn't use (much)
fossil fuel - i.,e. it's more or less carbon neutral, but it does tend
to need treatement to reduce pollution of toxic flue gasses.

There is no easy answer. But simply slightly better heat engines
burining fossil fuils are almost the worst of all possible answers.










  #105   Report Post  
Grunff
 
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Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

I've said it before in another forum: if you bothered to use a
spellchecker, your posts would be readable. It takes too long to reply
yo one of your posts point-by-point.

^^

Bwahahaha! Ha!!

--
Grunff


  #106   Report Post  
Dave Plowman
 
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Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

In article ,
Nick Maclaren wrote:
Worse, they work only after
the engine has warmed up (about 5 miles) and the average trip in the
UK is about 3 miles.


This may have been true when they were first introduced, but modern types
work much more quickly. FWIW, a cat doesn't rely on the engine
temperature, but that of the exhaust gasses which are largely independent
of this.

--
*Ham and Eggs: Just a day's work for a chicken, but a lifetime commitment

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn
  #107   Report Post  
Franz Heymann
 
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Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.


"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...

[snip]

Much more efficient to burn the hydrogen in a reciprocating (or rotary)
engine than to convert it through a fuel cell to run an electric motor,
though electrically propelled vehicles do have the potential to convert
the slowing down process back into usable power.


Totally wrong, and ever heard of regenerative braking,


Evidently he had, as evinced in the paragraph you described as "totally
wrong".

[snip]

Franz



  #108   Report Post  
Franz Heymann
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.


"Bob Hobden" wrote in message
...

"Nick wrote in message after me .
.
The laws on vehicle pollution continue to get tougher and tougher and

the
manufacturers have had to comply to continue to sell vehicles. There

has
been massive strides in reducing pollution from cars, per mile

travelled.
Catalytic Converters, Electronic Engine Control, lean burn engines, two
stage ignition, direct petrol injection, particle traps etc with more

to
come. We are significantly reducing overall pollution figures despite a
massive increase in vehicles, now all we need to do is get rid of all

those
old polluting buses.


I suggest that you take the effort to find out the facts behind the
government and motor lobby propaganda. That is completely untrue.


No it's not! everything I've written above is true. Ignoring the data, if
you simply look at the petrol consumption of ,say, a 1600cc car 30 years

ago
( about 26mpg) and compare it with a modern engine ( about 40+mpg) you

will
find significant improvements in efficiency which also does relate to the
pollution produced, even without catalists in the exhaust system. The fact
that these modern cars also have much more inside them consuming power
proves my point further.
.

2) Catalytic converters virtually eliminate carbon monoxide, but
increase the amount of nitrogen oxides. Worse, they work only after
the engine has warmed up (about 5 miles) and the average trip in the
UK is about 3 miles. Also, they don't work at all well when the engine
is idling (see (1). The reason that they "reduce pollution" is the
the government is very careful to measure only what they do reduce.

I will give you that an INCIDENTAL effect has been the removal of lead
and sulphur but, as someone with breathing problems, I can witness that
pollution for a given amount of traffic is getting worse.


Probably due to the significant rise in the use of Diesel engines (in

cars)
which produce lots of small particules (soot) which get into our lungs and
clog them up. Particle Traps are on their way to cure this problem, I

think
it's one of the French manufacturers that is already installing them. I

too
have developed Asthma in the last 10 years.


3) The various regulations have the effect of increasing the weight
of vehicles, discouraging more economical two-wheeled transport (both
motorcycles and bicycles, ridden on the road). I believe that it would
now be cheaper for me to get a HGV licence than a motorcycle one, and I
am a very "low risk" person. And cycling is now finished, as a form of
medium-distance commuting (3-10 miles), and that is DIRECTLY due to the
changes in regulations and attitudes of the "powers that be."

Other people have pointed out the errors in your "pollution-free" car
theory. All it does is move the pollution from the suburbs to the
power station, though I agree that doing so COULD be used to reduce
pollution. I know of no plans that any government has, and definitely
not the UK, to do so.


Nobody has pointed out a flaw at all, to me they just show they don't know
about Fuel Cells, their possibilities, uses and how fast the technology is
advancing so there is little chance of agreement on this topic.


I have been reading about the immense progress being made in fuel cell
technology for more than twenty years now. Why are they not yet in daily
use in every household?

Oh, and with power stations also going over to the use of Fuel Cells
pollution from them will reduce too. :-)


I have read a report one experimental fuel cell unit installed in Holland,
where it was mentioned that "At the point of shutdown, the unit was also
sustaining a power generating efficiency of more than 46 percent, well above
a conventional combustion-based power plant that typically generates
electricity at efficiencies of 33 to 35 percent".

That does not sit well with whoever it was who recently said something about
conventional power stations operating at 60%.

Franz


  #109   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
Nick Maclaren wrote:

Worse, they work only after
the engine has warmed up (about 5 miles) and the average trip in the
UK is about 3 miles.


This may have been true when they were first introduced, but modern types
work much more quickly. FWIW, a cat doesn't rely on the engine
temperature, but that of the exhaust gasses which are largely independent
of this.



Cat still takes a mile or two to get hot tho.
Engine may take longer.

During that time the engine will be running very rich, and the cat will
allow huge amounts of unburnt fuel to spew out.

When I reverse the car out first thing, the exhaust STINKS of benzene
and other aromatics.

  #110   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

Franz Heymann wrote:



I have read a report one experimental fuel cell unit installed in Holland,
where it was mentioned that "At the point of shutdown, the unit was also
sustaining a power generating efficiency of more than 46 percent, well above
a conventional combustion-based power plant that typically generates
electricity at efficiencies of 33 to 35 percent".



That is typical of an old station running coal or gas, built to 60's
standards. Noit a modern set.



That does not sit well with whoever it was who recently said something about
conventional power stations operating at 60%.



Depends on what you mean by conventional.

The key to efficiency is getting your working fluids temperature and
pressure way up, and the final exhaust way down.

Steam turbines with ultra superheated steam going through multistage
turbines with condensors on the back end to get the back end temp way
down will do better than 50%. Gas turbines with extremely high
combustion temperatures, whose exhaust then heats water to drive a steam
turbine, do even better. If the coolant water at around 40-60C is then
fed to housing next door for heating purposes...you are getting up
towards 75-80% usage of thermal energy released.

And the last little bit goes to help you farm fish in the cooling tanks :-)

So, two points

- in an overall energy and fuel conservation analysis, efficiency is not
the primary problem. If you can use waste heat to save heating oil being
burnt - example, build a bakery next door and use the heat to run the
proving process, and bake bread at the edge of the furnace, or use waste
heat to heat greenhouses to grow vegetables, or to farm fish or whatever
- then you have an *ovearall* more efficient system anyway.

- in an overall carbon neutral scenario, you want to reduce the
conversion BY ANY MEANS of fossil fuel to carbon dioxide. I am not sure
what fuel cells produce, but the carbon has to end up somewhere. If they
are running on fossil fuels they don't really solve the problem. Whereas
burning waste paper in a combined heat/power set can be extremely
inefficient, as long as the heat ends up reducing fossil fuel usage and
generateing SOME power. Because paper comes from carbon that has been
taken OUT of the air by trees.

The trouble is that neither the governments nor the power industry has
any real incentive to either do the OVERALL analsysis, nor to embark on
co-operative projects to utilise e.g. waste heat.


If someone could only come up with a plant that I simply stuffed full of
junk-mail and which heated my house, generated most of my electricity,
and allowed me to run a few pipes rund the garden to grow vegetables in
winter from....at similar cost to an oil boiler...





Franz







  #111   Report Post  
Andrew
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
Franz Heymann wrote:

Steam turbines with ultra superheated steam going through multistage
turbines with condensors on the back end to get the back end temp way
down will do better than 50%. Gas turbines with extremely high
combustion temperatures, whose exhaust then heats water to drive a steam
turbine, do even better. If the coolant water at around 40-60C is then
fed to housing next door for heating purposes...you are getting up
towards 75-80% usage of thermal energy released.

And the last little bit goes to help you farm fish in the cooling tanks :-)

And then you die of dioxin/pcb poisoning :-)

So, two points


--
Andrew
  #112   Report Post  
Franz Heymann
 
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Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:

The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:


[snip]

I've said it before in another forum: if you bothered to use a
spellchecker, your posts would be readable. It takes too long to reply
yo one of your posts point-by-point.


That is the neatest way of ducking out of a losing argument I have ever
seen.


True. On the other hand, you must admit that your typing is every bit as
bad as mine.

Franz


  #113   Report Post  
Franz Heymann
 
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Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Franz Heymann wrote:



I have read a report one experimental fuel cell unit installed in

Holland,
where it was mentioned that "At the point of shutdown, the unit was also
sustaining a power generating efficiency of more than 46 percent, well

above
a conventional combustion-based power plant that typically generates
electricity at efficiencies of 33 to 35 percent".



That is typical of an old station running coal or gas, built to 60's
standards. Noit a modern set.


The report was quite recent, like a couple of years old.


That does not sit well with whoever it was who recently said something

about
conventional power stations operating at 60%.


Depends on what you mean by conventional.

The key to efficiency is getting your working fluids temperature and
pressure way up, and the final exhaust way down.

Steam turbines with ultra superheated steam going through multistage
turbines with condensors on the back end to get the back end temp way
down will do better than 50%. Gas turbines with extremely high
combustion temperatures, whose exhaust then heats water to drive a steam
turbine, do even better. If the coolant water at around 40-60C is then
fed to housing next door for heating purposes...you are getting up
towards 75-80% usage of thermal energy released.


But if it is true that a conventional power station can in fact run at over
60%, why were folk so pleased with that fuel cell power source of which I
spoke, when it ran at only somewhat above 46%?



And the last little bit goes to help you farm fish in the cooling tanks

:-)

In viiew of the latest newspaper reports, that is not to be counted as being
on the side of the angels.

So, two points

- in an overall energy and fuel conservation analysis, efficiency is not
the primary problem. If you can use waste heat to save heating oil being
burnt - example, build a bakery next door and use the heat to run the
proving process, and bake bread at the edge of the furnace, or use waste
heat to heat greenhouses to grow vegetables, or to farm fish or whatever
- then you have an *ovearall* more efficient system anyway.


It would be most surprising if that could be done at more than a minority of
the power stations of the world.

- in an overall carbon neutral scenario, you want to reduce the
conversion BY ANY MEANS of fossil fuel to carbon dioxide. I am not sure
what fuel cells produce, but the carbon has to end up somewhere. If they
are running on fossil fuels they don't really solve the problem. Whereas
burning waste paper in a combined heat/power set can be extremely
inefficient, as long as the heat ends up reducing fossil fuel usage and
generateing SOME power. Because paper comes from carbon that has been
taken OUT of the air by trees.

The trouble is that neither the governments nor the power industry has
any real incentive to either do the OVERALL analsysis, nor to embark on
co-operative projects to utilise e.g. waste heat.


If someone could only come up with a plant that I simply stuffed full of
junk-mail and which heated my house, generated most of my electricity,
and allowed me to run a few pipes rund the garden to grow vegetables in
winter from....at similar cost to an oil boiler...


I am truly surprised that some such object has not yet been developed. I
wonder if anybody has reckoned the energy economics in my case, where I have
to take my newspapers and junk mail by car to the nearest collection point.

Franz


  #114   Report Post  
Franz Heymann
 
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Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.


"Andrew" wrote in message
...
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
Franz Heymann wrote:

Steam turbines with ultra superheated steam going through multistage
turbines with condensors on the back end to get the back end temp way
down will do better than 50%. Gas turbines with extremely high
combustion temperatures, whose exhaust then heats water to drive a steam
turbine, do even better. If the coolant water at around 40-60C is then
fed to housing next door for heating purposes...you are getting up
towards 75-80% usage of thermal energy released.

And the last little bit goes to help you farm fish in the cooling tanks

:-)
And then you die of dioxin/pcb poisoning :-)

So, two points


Actually, I did not write any of the words above. Somebody has screwed up
the attribution marks and the headers yet again.

Franz


  #115   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
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Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

Franz Heymann wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Jaques d'Alltrades wrote:


The message
from The Natural Philosopher contains these words:



[snip]


I've said it before in another forum: if you bothered to use a
spellchecker, your posts would be readable. It takes too long to reply
yo one of your posts point-by-point.


That is the neatest way of ducking out of a losing argument I have ever
seen.


True. On the other hand, you must admit that your typing is every bit as
bad as mine.



No argument thier :-)


Franz







  #116   Report Post  
The Natural Philosopher
 
Posts: n/a
Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

Franz Heymann wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Franz Heymann wrote:



I have read a report one experimental fuel cell unit installed in

Holland,

where it was mentioned that "At the point of shutdown, the unit was also
sustaining a power generating efficiency of more than 46 percent, well

above

a conventional combustion-based power plant that typically generates
electricity at efficiencies of 33 to 35 percent".


That is typical of an old station running coal or gas, built to 60's
standards. Noit a modern set.


The report was quite recent, like a couple of years old.




*shrug* maybe people aren't too bothered about efficiency and still
build cheap gas powered sets.

In these things enegy efficiency is not the onbly cost benefit tro analyse.



That does not sit well with whoever it was who recently said something

about

conventional power stations operating at 60%.

Depends on what you mean by conventional.

The key to efficiency is getting your working fluids temperature and
pressure way up, and the final exhaust way down.

Steam turbines with ultra superheated steam going through multistage
turbines with condensors on the back end to get the back end temp way
down will do better than 50%. Gas turbines with extremely high
combustion temperatures, whose exhaust then heats water to drive a steam
turbine, do even better. If the coolant water at around 40-60C is then
fed to housing next door for heating purposes...you are getting up
towards 75-80% usage of thermal energy released.


But if it is true that a conventional power station can in fact run at over
60%, why were folk so pleased with that fuel cell power source of which I
spoke, when it ran at only somewhat above 46%?



Because fuel cells have not been able to match even a victorian steam
engine until recently?

Beacause they need more funding and that was the best thing they could
find to say?


I don't know: In all these thngs bull**** abounds.

Only when you actually try and buy something and get

quoted a price, and test it and get some figures, do you

know wherher its all BS or whether the thing actually works.


And the last little bit goes to help you farm fish in the cooling tanks

:-)

In viiew of the latest newspaper reports, that is not to be counted as being
on the side of the angels.



Guess who is ****ed off cos they have mad cow diseae, and whose trying
to export wild salmon...C'mon now. The French did it to use with mad
cow, we did it to them with listeria hysteria cheese, weve done it to
teh tyabkls with mad cow and GM crops.

They are just getting their own back.
FUD.



So, two points

- in an overall energy and fuel conservation analysis, efficiency is not
the primary problem. If you can use waste heat to save heating oil being
burnt - example, build a bakery next door and use the heat to run the
proving process, and bake bread at the edge of the furnace, or use waste
heat to heat greenhouses to grow vegetables, or to farm fish or whatever
- then you have an *ovearall* more efficient system anyway.


It would be most surprising if that could be done at more than a minority of
the power stations of the world.



Not really. Most are in or near urban areas and have excellent transport
links. Most are on large sites with spare land, or could be bult on
farmland. Most need colling water so riverside or lakeside locatns
arepreferred.




- in an overall carbon neutral scenario, you want to reduce the
conversion BY ANY MEANS of fossil fuel to carbon dioxide. I am not sure
what fuel cells produce, but the carbon has to end up somewhere. If they
are running on fossil fuels they don't really solve the problem. Whereas
burning waste paper in a combined heat/power set can be extremely
inefficient, as long as the heat ends up reducing fossil fuel usage and
generateing SOME power. Because paper comes from carbon that has been
taken OUT of the air by trees.

The trouble is that neither the governments nor the power industry has
any real incentive to either do the OVERALL analsysis, nor to embark on
co-operative projects to utilise e.g. waste heat.


If someone could only come up with a plant that I simply stuffed full of
junk-mail and which heated my house, generated most of my electricity,
and allowed me to run a few pipes rund the garden to grow vegetables in
winter from....at similar cost to an oil boiler...


I am truly surprised that some such object has not yet been developed. I
wonder if anybody has reckoned the energy economics in my case, where I have
to take my newspapers and junk mail by car to the nearest collection point.



Yes, they have, but everyone shouted them dnw. The greens felt
threatened having been in to 'recycling' for years. The power boys want
to sell you power, and the heating boys want to sell you oil...

In short no one saw any personal advantage to it at all.


I ou want to get a handle on some eco bull**** there is a book -
scpetical ecologist - or somesuch.


Big industry and teh greens are both lying hypocrites apparently.


Franz





  #117   Report Post  
IMM
 
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Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:


Because there have been minor improvements in a flawed highly

inefficient
piston engine design over the past 30 years, you appear to think this
exonerates the internal combustion engine, or it is efficient or clean

or
something. It is NOT.

The engine it at the end of its lifespan, it should have gone 50 years

ago.

snip

As I mentioned in another post, according to MIT the fuel cell is not

viable
yet for vehicles, which are the world's worst polluters.

Far more efficient Rotary and Stirling diesel and petrol units appear

the
best options to fill the gap. The Stirling is external combustion,

which is
much a clean on the burn. Even the Rev Tec Aussie engine, a piston

engine,
improves thermal efficiency from 25% to over 50%.



What you have failed to realise, is that even these are only stopgaps too.


It is obvious that I know that, as I have already said that.

At the very best, a fuel BURNING engine delivers only 60%

efficiency - maybe a little more. The rest is waste heat.

If you had goine to a snotty uni, where
the theory is taught, you would
understand that any heat engine - and
all the above are heat engines -
has its efficiency dictated by the ratio
of the temperature of burn to
the echaust temperature.


Not quite right. The overall mechanical efficiency of the unit has to be up
to it. Also in road engine, the power to weight ratio is one of the most
important factors.

The big picture is about energy conservation, especially in terms of
waste heat, and the irreversible (in the short to medium term) problem
if taking fossilised carbon out of the ground and pumping it into the air.

To solve that you need to

- use less.
- burn plants you grew last year.
- generate power by means that don't generate waste heat OR
- use waste heat to replace the use of fuel elsewhere (CHP)


...and use less fuel cleanly.

Use of the engines described does not solve any of these apart from, in
a minor way, the first.


I did say in the short to medium term the diesel and gasoline engines will
have to do, but there are far more efficient versions around than the
abomination we all currently use.

Fuel cells can solve many of the above, but in the end. electricity is
bets because it generates very little waste heat when used to generate
mechanial motion.


It is the loses at generation and transmission losses. This can be reduced
by having smaller local power stations, the UK had, using natural, using CHP
to heat the local district. Transmission losses then are low and overall
energy efficient is very high. Sweden do this.

The issues then become how to generate electricity without using fossil
fuel and/or heat engines. Feul cells are not heat engines, but usually
use fossil fuel. Nuclear power doesn't use fossil fuel, but does use a
heat engine. windmills do neither, but are ugly, of variable power, and
woefully inefficient in terms of space used.


"woefully inefficient in terms of space used"? You see cows grazing under
them. They can be in the middle of fields and only occupy a small footprint.
There are windmill farms being built off-shore all over the UK right now,
Out of sight.

Water and wave power does
neither, but is localised as to its applicability. solar cells are even
ore woefully inneficient,


Wet solar panels generally inefficient per squ foot, but have the whole of a
south facing roof being a solar panel and the by shear size you have an
efficient collector, that will virtually provide all of the houses needs if
you can store the heat in a large thermal store

Put PV cells on every south facing roof and most of the power generation
station will not be needed. The solutions are there. It needs political
will to force it through.

but there mat be better technology coming..
burning domestc rubbish and biomass is
good as it doesn't use (much)
fossil fuel - i.,e. it's more or less carbon neutral,
but it does tend to need treatement to reduce
pollution of toxic flue gasses.

There is no easy answer. But simply slightly better heat engines
burining fossil fuils are almost the worst of all possible answers.


On the domestic and commercial build front, insulation levels to
superinsulation, passive solar design of homes, as Germany as doing with
Passiv Solar regs, south facing roofs having integrated wet solar/PV cells,
boiler with integrated CPH elec/gas Stirling boilers and soon to be
introduced. The Stirling CPH boilers cut the peaks of electricity usage.
All this is right now, and can and should be implemented. Doing so will
drastically cut fuel usage and emissions and prevent fuel poverty. And more
efficiency is on the way...

What looks promising and appear likely to be introduced is the Zeolithe heat
pump, which runs on natural gas for the provision of domestic heating and
hot water. Currently these units are floor mounted and resemble a typical
boiler in appearance. Zeolithe heating appliance's use less energy and are
more environment-friendly than electric heat pumps and gas boilers. It
provides considerably higher output levels than the current conventional and
condensing boilers. Carbon-dioxide emissions are reduced by approximately
20 to 30%.

On the vehicle side, matters are more complex. Of course, local CHP power
stations drip charging electric car overnight is very sensible, but we do
not have the infrastructure for this, as yet. Also what do you do in a
city, when you car is parked on the road? How do you charge it?

There are far more efficient diesel and gasoline engines around, and are
running. These can be developed fully and integrated into a hybrid setup.
Another method suggested is waste heat from an advanced rotary engine (not
an inefficient Wankel design) which has well over 50% efficiency, driving a
small Stirling engine from its waste heat, which drives a compressor, which
charges an air tank. The compressed air assists drive via an air motor in a
hybrid setup. This is a fine stop gap, and around town the car can run on
non-polluting air, which is generated from what would have been wasted heat.
The whole setup can be small in size as rotary engines are small and a
compressor/air motors is also small. The compressor can also be the starter
motor too.



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  #118   Report Post  
IMM
 
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Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.


"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

I have been reading about the immense progress being made in fuel cell
technology for more than twenty years now. Why are they not yet in daily
use in every household?


Why isn't every new and rennovated houses built to superinsulation and
passive solar standards, virtually eliminating a heating system? Not rocket
science and many examples are all over the world right now, so not airy
fairy ideas at all. It would cost the taxpayer nothing to implement.

Oh, and with power stations also going over to the use of Fuel Cells
pollution from them will reduce too. :-)


I have read a report one experimental fuel cell unit installed in Holland,
where it was mentioned that "At the point of shutdown, the unit was also
sustaining a power generating efficiency of more than 46 percent, well

above
a conventional combustion-based power plant that typically generates
electricity at efficiencies of 33 to 35 percent".

That does not sit well with whoever it was who recently said something

about
conventional power stations operating at 60%.




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  #119   Report Post  
IMM
 
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Default Was: Moss/Lichen on roof, now we are into pollution.


"Franz Heymann" wrote in message
...

If someone could only come up with a plant that I simply stuffed full of
junk-mail and which heated my house, generated most of my electricity,
and allowed me to run a few pipes rund the garden to grow vegetables in
winter from....at similar cost to an oil boiler...


I am truly surprised that some such object has not yet been developed.


It's called a wood stove, and some of these are very efficient.




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  #120   Report Post  
IMM
 
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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
Nick Maclaren wrote:

Worse, they work only after
the engine has warmed up (about 5 miles) and the average trip in the
UK is about 3 miles.


This may have been true when they were first introduced, but modern

types
work much more quickly. FWIW, a cat doesn't rely on the engine
temperature, but that of the exhaust gasses which are largely

independent
of this.


Cat still takes a mile or two to get hot tho.
Engine may take longer.

During that time the engine will be running very rich, and the cat will
allow huge amounts of unburnt fuel to spew out.

When I reverse the car out first thing, the exhaust STINKS of benzene
and other aromatics.


Using fully synthetic oils also reduces emissions and prolongs a CATs life.



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