New Regs on Spurs?
 

It is now many years since I passed my City & Guilds 224, 232 and 236 and I
don't pretend to be up to date with the Regs.

However, a young upstart :-) son of a friend is currently training as a
sparky at a local hospital. He tells me that it is now acceptable to run as
many spurs off spurs as you like provided that all the outlets are in the
same room. I was very sceptical that this was the case (although being New
Year we had all had several shandies) and wonder if any of the learned gents
on this site can reassure me?

I presume it is also still the case that you must not have more spurs than
ringed outlets on a ring main? If I have got sufficiently out of date to
have missed both of these fundamental changes I fear it's the end of the
world as I know it!

I do remember at college being given earache for calling a ring final
sub-circuit a ring main, and for calling MIMS by the usual name (to me) of
Pyro! I was forcibly lectured that you only ever found a ring main as part
of the supply network operated by the electricity board as it was then.

New Regs on Spurs?
 

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:12:50 -0000, "Doctor D."
wrote:

It is now many years since I passed my City & Guilds 224, 232 and 236 and I
don't pretend to be up to date with the Regs.

However, a young upstart :-) son of a friend is currently training as a
sparky at a local hospital. He tells me that it is now acceptable to run as
many spurs off spurs as you like provided that all the outlets are in the
same room.

Spurs off of spurs? No.


I was very sceptical that this was the case (although being New
Year we had all had several shandies) and wonder if any of the learned gents
on this site can reassure me?

He had had too many shandies.....

For a BS1363 ring final circuit:

The number of unfused spurs fed from the ring circuit must not exceed
the number of sockets or fixed appliances connected directly in the
ring.

Each non-fused spur may feed no more than one single or one twin
socket, or no more than one fixed appliance.

You can put in a fused connection unit with 13A fuse and connect a
spur downstream from that. On such a spur, you can connect as many
socket outlets as you like and even in a daisy chain.

There is more flexibility regarding radial final circuits. With
appropriate cable size and fuse/circuit breaker are used. You can
have as many outlets as you like within diversity constraints.


I wonder if there are separate and special rules in hospitals,
although I haven't read of them. If anything, I would expect rules
to be more conservative, though.






I presume it is also still the case that you must not have more spurs than
ringed outlets on a ring main? If I have got sufficiently out of date to
have missed both of these fundamental changes I fear it's the end of the
world as I know it!

I do remember at college being given earache for calling a ring final
sub-circuit a ring main, and for calling MIMS by the usual name (to me) of
Pyro! I was forcibly lectured that you only ever found a ring main as part
of the supply network operated by the electricity board as it was then.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

New Regs on Spurs?
 

"Doctor D." wrote in message
...
It is now many years since I passed my City & Guilds 224, 232 and 236 and
I
don't pretend to be up to date with the Regs.

However, a young upstart :-) son of a friend is currently training as a
sparky at a local hospital. He tells me that it is now acceptable to run
as
many spurs off spurs as you like provided that all the outlets are in the
same room. I was very sceptical .
So you should be.
one spur from from one ring socket feeding (max) a twin socket.

I presume it is also still the case that you must not have more spurs than
ringed outlets on a ring main?
correct

Only exception is taking a fused spur (13-16Amps) from a socket
which can feed unlimited sockets but IIRC only in a 50 metre square area

I do remember at college being given earache for calling a ring final
sub-circuit a ring main.
possibly correct
and for calling MIMS by the usual name (to me) of
Pyro!
Oh dear..I called it MIC

I was forcibly lectured that you only ever found a ring main as part
of the supply network operated by the electricity board as it was then.
but they never did that ??..isn't everything spurs

New Regs on Spurs?
 

On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 00:39:33 -0000, Chris Oates wrote:

I was forcibly lectured that you only ever found a ring main as
part of the supply network operated by the electricity board as it
was then.

but they never did that ??..isn't everything spurs

Depends how you define "ring". The very general local layout of the
11kV distribution round here is:

+-----------------+
/ \
NC NO
33kV SS --NC-------------NO--+
NC NC
\ /
+-----------------+

Note the normally open (NO) and normally closed (NC) switches, there
is no closed ring as such but any one point can be fed from either
direction from two other sources by operating the switches.
There are numerous single phase "spurs" feeding either single
buildings or groups of buildings. The above is the main 3 phase
"backbone" of the distribution if you like.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

New Regs on Spurs?
 

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:27:57 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Each non-fused spur may feed no more than one single or one twin
socket, or no more than one fixed appliance.

Oops! I'm in trouble then. I just installed a triple socket in a
cupboard upstairs a couple of days ago.

You can put in a fused connection unit with 13A fuse and connect a
spur downstream from that. On such a spur, you can connect as many
socket outlets as you like and even in a daisy chain.

Hmm, the triple socket appears to have a fuse on the front, thus
possibly combining a fused spur with the triple socket. Maybe I'm
alright after all.

I wonder if there are separate and special rules in hospitals,
although I haven't read of them. If anything, I would expect rules
to be more conservative, though.

When my son was in hospital for 3 months in 2002 I gave him my laptop
so that he could play games (a hospital isn't a grand place for
someone to be wired to a bed in traction). The nursing staff wouldn't
allow that until the on-site sparky had checked it out, so you are
right about the additional dogma.

In this particular case I'm happy that they have some extra red tape.

PoP

Replying to the email address given by my news reader
will result in your own email address being instantly
added to my anti-spam database! If you really want to
contact me try changing the prefix in the given email
address to my newsgroup posting name.....

New Regs on Spurs?
 

"PoP" wrote in message
...
snip

When my son was in hospital for 3 months in 2002 I gave him my laptop
so that he could play games (a hospital isn't a grand place for
someone to be wired to a bed in traction). The nursing staff wouldn't
allow that until the on-site sparky had checked it out, so you are
right about the additional dogma.


Surely that was just a case of PA test and making sure the unit wasn't going
to cause anything else to fail, it might not have anything to do with fixed
wiring reg's IYSWIM ?

New Regs on Spurs?
 

"PoP" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 00:27:57 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Each non-fused spur may feed no more than one single or one twin
socket, or no more than one fixed appliance.

Oops! I'm in trouble then. I just installed a triple socket in a
cupboard upstairs a couple of days ago.

You can put in a fused connection unit with 13A fuse and connect a
spur downstream from that. On such a spur, you can connect as many
socket outlets as you like and even in a daisy chain.

Hmm, the triple socket appears to have a fuse on the front, thus
possibly combining a fused spur with the triple socket. Maybe I'm
alright after all.

I wonder if there are separate and special rules in hospitals,
although I haven't read of them. If anything, I would expect rules
to be more conservative, though.

When my son was in hospital for 3 months in 2002 I gave him my laptop
so that he could play games (a hospital isn't a grand place for
someone to be wired to a bed in traction). The nursing staff wouldn't
allow that until the on-site sparky had checked it out, so you are
right about the additional dogma.

That does not a surprise me. A student nurse I know had to have all her
electrical items in her halls of residence room PAT tested.

--
Adam

New Regs on Spurs?
 

ARWadsworth wrote:

That does not a surprise me. A student nurse I know had to have all her
electrical items in her halls of residence room PAT tested.

--
Adam

A lot of (general manufacturing) companies we deal with require any
electrical equipment we carry to be PAT tested before we are allowed on
site. I'm sure our H+S manual requires the same for contractors bringing
equipment on to our site (whether it is enforced is a different matter :-))

Chris

--
cut along the dotted line to reply

New Regs on Spurs?
 

"Andy Hall" wrote
| However, a young upstart :-) son of a friend is currently training
| as a sparky at a local hospital. He tells me that it is now acceptable
| to run as many spurs off spurs as you like provided that all the
| outlets are in the same room.
| Spurs off of spurs? No.
....
| There is more flexibility regarding radial final circuits. With
| appropriate cable size and fuse/circuit breaker are used. You can
| have as many outlets as you like within diversity constraints.

I strongly suspect that the hospital is wired with radials, one per room. to
minimise the affected area in the event of an MCB tripping. The 'same room
rule' may be to enforce phase separation

Owain

New Regs on Spurs?
 

"Doctor D." wrote
| I do remember at college being given earache for calling a ring
| final sub-circuit a ring main, and for calling MIMS by the usual
| name (to me) of Pyro!

When I were a lad it was MICS

| I was forcibly lectured that you only ever found a ring main as
| part of the supply network operated by the electricity board as
| it was then.

Ring mains quite widely used in industrial buildings for supplying busbar
takeoff points or Branch Distribution Boards.

Owain

New Regs on Spurs?
 

I knew I'd get some sense here - I was beginning to doubt my own sanity!

As he was referring to an office suite I did argue with him that he needed
to install a 13 amp fused spur before adding the daisy chained socket
outlets (which would make sense due to the relatively low wattage appliances
in use) but he swore blind that within a room spurs off spurs was
acceptable!

It seems he may require a little more time reading the Regs.

Thanks again.

New Regs on Spurs?
 

In article ,
Doctor D. wrote:
and for calling MIMS by the usual name (to me) of Pyro!

It's still sometimes called Pyro by the few left who know how to use it.
But more commonly MICC. Where does the MIMS come from?

I recently wanted 'bare' 2L1 to run across an exposed wood beam - it's by
far the neatest way of doing it. Think I had to visit a dozen wholesalers
to get the bits needed - the most difficult being the bare copper clips.

--
*Hang in there, retirement is only thirty years away! *

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

New Regs on Spurs?
 

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 14:32:02 +0000, Doctor D. wrote:

I knew I'd get some sense here - I was beginning to doubt my own sanity!

As he was referring to an office suite I did argue with him that he needed
to install a 13 amp fused spur before adding the daisy chained socket
outlets (which would make sense due to the relatively low wattage appliances
in use) but he swore blind that within a room spurs off spurs was
acceptable!

It seems he may require a little more time reading the Regs.


It's my _guess_ that what he is calling a 'spur' is not a spur of a
main final circuit but simply a 'branch' on a 16A or 20A radial final
socket circuit. A reasonable loading for such a final circuit would
be one office room up to around 20m2

Also (IME) whilst rings are ubiquitous in domestic wiring, non-domestic wiring
tends to favour radial (I guess that's customary rather than regulatory thing).

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

New Regs on Spurs?
 

In article ,
(Huge) writes:
Chris writes:
ARWadsworth wrote:

That does not a surprise me. A student nurse I know had to have all her
electrical items in her halls of residence room PAT tested.

A lot of (general manufacturing) companies we deal with require any
electrical equipment we carry to be PAT tested before we are allowed on
site. I'm sure our H+S manual requires the same for contractors bringing
equipment on to our site (whether it is enforced is a different matter :-))

I cam back from lunch at work once to find my personal CD player had
been PAT tested, and the plug had been changed... All silently,
invisible & free. I was impressed.

My past and current employers do this too. In practice, personal
equipment is probably such a tiny proportion of the total it's
not worth trying to avoid it.

Government has apparently been pointing out to companies that
where they expect equipment to be used at home for work purposes,
they are equally responsible for ensuring that is checked for
safety. This isn't just electrical safety, it's everything that
they would normally be required to check in the office, such as
compliance with display screen equipment regs, etc.

--
Andrew Gabriel

New Regs on Spurs?
 

"Dave Plowman" wrote
| But more commonly MICC. Where does the MIMS come from?

Mineral Insulated Metal Sheath ?

Mineral Insulated Copper Covered (or Clad) - MICC
Mineral Insulated Copper Sheath - MICS

Owain

New Regs on Spurs?
 

"Doctor D." wrote in message
...
It is now many years since I passed my City & Guilds 224, 232 and 236 and
I
don't pretend to be up to date with the Regs.


How about a fused spur, off a fused spur?

For example..

Cable from back of a socket on a ring main - a 13A fused spur

Off this spur, another spur (maybe with a lower fuse for something - is this
acceptable?


I however think the below would not be acceptable...

When we had an alarm fitted at my workplace, the alarm company (Spy Alarms)
did the following

Wire from back of a socket on a ring main into spur
Spur then feeds alarm panel (5A fuse in spur and alarm panel)
Another wire from the back of the spur (not the fuse protected side) to
another spur feeding a swipe card system.

I thought this was wrong, but I stand to be corrected here!

Sparks...

New Regs on Spurs?
 

In article ,
Owain wrote:
| But more commonly MICC. Where does the MIMS come from?

Mineral Insulated Metal Sheath ?

Mineral Insulated Copper Covered (or Clad) - MICC
Mineral Insulated Copper Sheath - MICS

Right. I've a feeling I've seen this stuff with an aluminium outer. Am I
mistaken?

--
*To steal ideas from *one* person is plagiarism; from many, research*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

New Regs on Spurs?
 

In article , Huge
writes

I cam back from lunch at work once to find my personal CD player had
been PAT tested, and the plug had been changed... All silently,
invisible & free. I was impressed.

I came back from an extended lunch [1] at work once to find the server
had been unplugged and PAT tested. Without shutting it down.

The resultant fsck -y took hours.


[1] alright, I was in the pub.

New Regs on Spurs?
 

In article , Dave Plowman
writes

I recently wanted 'bare' 2L1 to run across an exposed wood beam - it's by
far the neatest way of doing it. Think I had to visit a dozen wholesalers
to get the bits needed - the most difficult being the bare copper clips.

How do you run it nice and straight? (This question is from someone who
has difficulty in getting clipped T&E runs looking neat.)

New Regs on Spurs?
 

The number of unfused spurs fed from the ring circuit must not exceed
the number of sockets or fixed appliances connected directly in the
ring.

I believe this requirement (if it ever existed) has been replaced by the
requirement to ensure that the probable load on the ring is reasonably
balanced around its perimeter. You are not allowed to have the dishwasher,
washing machine and tumble dryer sockets as the first three before it snakes
around the house.

However, you are allowed as many unfused spurs as you like, provided they
aren't all at one end and, therefore, likely to unbalance the circuit. You
can make a ring circuit will all spurs if you like. Such a circuit is quite
useful if you have concrete floors as you can run a single drop cable to
each socket from the ring in the floor above.

Christian.

New Regs on Spurs?
 

"Sparks" wrote
| For example..
| Cable from back of a socket on a ring main - a 13A fused spur
| Off this spur, another spur (maybe with a lower fuse for something -
| is this acceptable?

I don't see why not, if it's otherwise compliant with the Regs. It could be
very useful eg running a socket to an attached garage and then fusing down
again for a light.

| I however think the below would not be acceptable...
| When we had an alarm fitted at my workplace, the alarm company (Spy
Alarms)
| did the following
| Wire from back of a socket on a ring main into spur
| Spur then feeds alarm panel (5A fuse in spur and alarm panel)
| Another wire from the back of the spur (not the fuse protected side) to
| another spur feeding a swipe card system.
| I thought this was wrong, but I stand to be corrected here!

I think wrong, it's an unfused spur supplying two points which is contrary
to Regs.

Owain

New Regs on Spurs?
 

In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
I recently wanted 'bare' 2L1 to run across an exposed wood beam - it's
by far the neatest way of doing it. Think I had to visit a dozen
wholesalers to get the bits needed - the most difficult being the bare
copper clips.

How do you run it nice and straight? (This question is from someone who
has difficulty in getting clipped T&E runs looking neat.)

It should come in a nice neat large coil, so if unwound carefully will
start off straight. Run a chalk line or similar for the screw holes and
drill pilot holes for the round head brass screws. Run a steel screw in
first to avoid chewing up the brass screw slots. Then try not to bend it
too much as you put it up - an assistant is a help here on long runs. But
assuming you've got the fixings in a straight line, the cable can be
tapped straight anyway - being filled with a solid material it doesn't
dent or crush as easily as tube. I use a lead dressing 'spoon' with a lump
of wood behind. It's one of life's simple pleasures. ;-)

--
*Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn