Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?) pipe questions
 

The black half inch class C pipe which feeds into the concrete water holding tank in garden started leaking where it screws on, as the ground shifted and the pipe got pulled out of the connector.

The mess you see in the photo ( http://i67.tinypic.com/bg61eh.jpg ) is half a day's digging through stone, mud and water to get to the pipe, which I managed to cap off via a connector and short length of garden hose (to top up with manually for the time being).

There was no way of shutting off the pipe before, so float valve servicing was a job for a pair of goggles, freezing hands, and lots of spare split-pins and swearing! Now I've got access to the pipe, I'd like to:

* Install a box for the connection to live in for easy access including a stop valve
* Tee off a standpipe for a garden hose
* Not have to replace the current copper threaded fitting which is embedded in the side of the tank.

Additionally, the tank is fed via a tee from local farmers trough feed, which in turn comes from a spring catchment which runs into a large holding tank on a hill which serves several properties. When there's been heavy (or little) rain, the water gets silty, and every 2 years I clean out about 4 inches of silt from the bottom of the tank and then jetwash and flush the whole system with a few drops of hydrochloric acid.

Sometimes, some of the silt doesn't get time to settle, and despite the take-off pipe being about a foot off the bottom of the tank, particles then gets pumped up to the header tank in the roof, so I have to clean that and the toilet cisterns out from time to time.

There's a fine particulate filter for the kitchen tap but I think that putting one of these inline before the outside tank would just clog up quickly .. I've "googled it" but I just have so many options, many way beyond my budget. I'm a self-employed single parent financially recovering from the summer holidays, can't afford the plumber's quotes but have basic plumbing skills - what are my options, preferably keeping the whole lot under £200 max?

Thank you!

(side notes before anyone gets alarmed: yes, this is drinking water, but we've got a fine particulate filter and UV on the kitchen tap, only use it for tea and coffee, and have big refillable bottles to make cold drinks from in the kitchen. And it (just) passes the occasional mandatory local council test).

Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?)pipe questions
 

On 04/09/2016 17:56, lardconcepts wrote:
every 2 years I clean out about 4 inches of silt from the bottom of the tank and then jetwash and flush the whole system with a few drops of hydrochloric acid.


Hydrochloric acid, diluted down to a few drops in a water tank, won't do
anything. You may mean hypochlorite (AKA bleach...) does it smell like
swimming pools?

snip
(side notes before anyone gets alarmed: yes, this is drinking water, but we've got a fine particulate filter and UV on the kitchen tap, only use it for tea and coffee, and have big refillable bottles to make cold drinks from in the kitchen. And it (just) passes the occasional mandatory local council test).

You've boiled it in the tea and coffee. YMMV but I'd reckon that was
safe for anything except chemical poisons - which the UV and filter
wouldn't touch. Taste might be another matter!

Can't help you on the plumbing though. Sorry.

Andy

Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?)pipe questions
 

On Sunday, 4 September 2016 21:17:04 UTC+1, Vir Campestris wrote:

You may mean hypochlorite (AKA bleach...) does it smell like swimming pools?

Sorry, you're right - that's the one!

Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?)pipe questions
 

On 04/09/2016 17:56, lardconcepts wrote:
The black half inch class C pipe which feeds into the concrete water
holding tank in garden started leaking where it screws on, as the
ground shifted and the pipe got pulled out of the connector.

The mess you see in the photo ( http://i67.tinypic.com/bg61eh.jpg )
is half a day's digging through stone, mud and water to get to the
pipe, which I managed to cap off via a connector and short length of
garden hose (to top up with manually for the time being).

Its a bit hard to see the detail of what is going on there...

There was no way of shutting off the pipe before, so float valve
servicing was a job for a pair of goggles, freezing hands, and lots
of spare split-pins and swearing! Now I've got access to the pipe,

The trick with fitting an isolation valve to a live pipe it to fit it
when its fully open - so water can continue to stream through it with
little back pressure until you have it properly fitted. Then you can
turn it off!

I'd like to:

* Install a box for the connection to live in for easy access
including a stop valve * Tee off a standpipe for a garden hose * Not
have to replace the current copper threaded fitting which is embedded
in the side of the tank.

You probably want a loop of plastic pipe in there so that the buried
pipe and the tank are not locked together quite to tightly.


Additionally, the tank is fed via a tee from local farmers trough
feed, which in turn comes from a spring catchment which runs into a
large holding tank on a hill which serves several properties. When
there's been heavy (or little) rain, the water gets silty, and every
2 years I clean out about 4 inches of silt from the bottom of the
tank and then jetwash and flush the whole system with a few drops of
hydrochloric acid.

Sometimes, some of the silt doesn't get time to settle, and despite
the take-off pipe being about a foot off the bottom of the tank,
particles then gets pumped up to the header tank in the roof, so I
have to clean that and the toilet cisterns out from time to time.

Perhaps some form of cyclonic separator would be a good way of dealing
with silt. One of those designed for central heating systems like the
Fernox TF1 might do the trick. It would save problems with it adding
much flow resistance or getting clogged quickly.


There's a fine particulate filter for the kitchen tap but I think
that putting one of these inline before the outside tank would just
clog up quickly . I've "googled it" but I just have so many options,
many way beyond my budget. I'm a self-employed single parent
financially recovering from the summer holidays, can't afford the
plumber's quotes but have basic plumbing skills - what are my
options, preferably keeping the whole lot under £200 max?

Thank you!

(side notes before anyone gets alarmed: yes, this is drinking water,
but we've got a fine particulate filter and UV on the kitchen tap,
only use it for tea and coffee, and have big refillable bottles to
make cold drinks from in the kitchen. And it (just) passes the
occasional mandatory local council test).



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?) pipe questions
 

On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 09:56:23 -0700 (PDT), lardconcepts
wrote:

I'm a self-employed single parent financially recovering from the summer holidays, can't afford the plumber's quotes but have basic plumbing skills - what are my options, preferably keeping the whole lot under £200 max?

Ok, this is diy and should be doable.

* Install a box for the connection to live in for easy access including a stop valve

A plumbing box thing will cost more than some other boxes. So use a milk crate
wrapped in permeable stuff from the pond section in the builders mart, paving
slab as a lid. Or something that fits, costs little, and can be repurposed:
several paving slabs forming a cube, concrete landscaping rings, concrete
planter boxes, ...

* Tee off a standpipe for a garden hose
* Not have to replace the current copper threaded fitting which is embedded in the side of the tank.

Use plastic fittings, read the directions online, follow. Cut the pipe
carefully. I used garden shears rather than the special cutters to give a clean
cut. Scraping around on the outside with a hacksaw will gouge the outside and
prevent a seal.


Additionally, the tank is fed via a tee from local farmers trough feed, which in turn comes from a spring catchment which runs into a large holding tank on a hill which serves several properties. When there's been heavy (or little) rain, the water gets silty, and every 2 years I clean out about 4 inches of silt from the bottom of
the tank and then jetwash and flush the whole system with a few drops of hydrochloric acid.

Sometimes, some of the silt doesn't get time to settle, and despite the take-off pipe being about a foot off the bottom of the tank, particles then gets pumped up to the header tank in the roof, so I have to clean that and the toilet cisterns out from time to time.

Raise the end of the take-off pipe higher off the bottom?

Add a baffle (a tee, several tees, a food-safe box with lots of lintel holes,
....) to the inlet pipe so the incoming water disturbs the tank less, so the silt
settles faster?

There's a fine particulate filter for the kitchen tap but I think that putting one of these inline before the outside tank would just clog up quickly . I've "googled it" but I just have so many options, many way beyond my budget.

Possible put one behind the take-off where there will be less silt, with some
provision to back-flush it easily?


Thomas Prufer

Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?) pipe questions
 

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 04/09/2016 17:56, lardconcepts wrote:
The black half inch class C pipe which feeds into the concrete water
holding tank in garden started leaking where it screws on, as the
ground shifted and the pipe got pulled out of the connector.

The mess you see in the photo ( http://i67.tinypic.com/bg61eh.jpg )
is half a day's digging through stone, mud and water to get to the
pipe, which I managed to cap off via a connector and short length of
garden hose (to top up with manually for the time being).

Its a bit hard to see the detail of what is going on there...

There was no way of shutting off the pipe before, so float valve
servicing was a job for a pair of goggles, freezing hands, and lots
of spare split-pins and swearing! Now I've got access to the pipe,

The trick with fitting an isolation valve to a live pipe it to fit it
when its fully open - so water can continue to stream through it with
little back pressure until you have it properly fitted. Then you can
turn it off!

Can you use the *squeeze* technique to shut off the alkathene supply?
Easy with blue poly but I've never tried with the black stuff.

I've used a strong G cramp with two bits of halved broom handle to
protect the pipe.

--
Tim Lamb

Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?)pipe questions
 

Wow - you lot are fantastic! I didn't want to reply and quote one answer in particular as they're all good, but I do particularly like Thomas' "several paving slabs forming a cube" idea for the box.

And John's mention of a cyclonic filter is interesting; not sure I'd need the magnetic particle removal bit of it, but it seems no more expensive than the non-magnetic versions. I'd have to check what the min flow rate it could handle. I'll try a pair of tights for now though (over the end of the intake pipe I mean, not on me!).

Anyway, I'm armed with some good ideas here. Thanks all (but do keep them coming if you have an idea not covered here yet!)

Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?) pipe questions
 

On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 21:17:02 +0100, Vir Campestris wrote:

(side notes before anyone gets alarmed: yes, this is drinking
water,
but we've got a fine particulate filter and UV on the kitchen tap,


You've boiled it in the tea and coffee. YMMV but I'd reckon that was
safe ...

The quick up to nearly 100 C and back down "boiling" of a kettle
won't kill everything. Cryptosporidium is pretty robust, the required
chlorine levels are to high for the water supply. The water boards
recomend a 10 min rolling boil if there is a risk of the supply being
contaminated, they even throw money at it by giving affect customers
a cashback to pay for the extra energy costs. They wouldn't do if
they didn't mean that 10 min rolling boil. Sensible levels of UV do
inactivate it though.

... for anything except chemical poisons - which the UV and filter
wouldn't touch. Taste might be another matter!

A purely mechanical filter won't touch toxins but activated carbon or
other "filters" probably will.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?)pipe questions
 

On Monday, 5 September 2016 09:59:40 UTC+1, lardconcepts wrote:

Wow - you lot are fantastic! I didn't want to reply and quote one answer in particular as they're all good, but I do particularly like Thomas' "several paving slabs forming a cube" idea for the box.

And John's mention of a cyclonic filter is interesting; not sure I'd need the magnetic particle removal bit of it, but it seems no more expensive than the non-magnetic versions. I'd have to check what the min flow rate it could handle. I'll try a pair of tights for now though (over the end of the intake pipe I mean, not on me!).

Anyway, I'm armed with some good ideas here. Thanks all (but do keep them coming if you have an idea not covered here yet!)

Cyclonic filters are expensive and clog. A sloping piece of fine mesh has partial self clearing ability when it blocks, the runoff being directed to waste. It's also dirt cheap.

As I think someone mentioned something like a milk crate in the tank would reduce churning and thus silt getting into the pipe.

A basic cyclonic filter could be made with little more than a bit of plastic soil pipe. Add a mesh post-filter and Robert's related.


NT

Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?)pipe questions
 

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 5:56:25 PM UTC+1, lardconcepts wrote:
The black half inch class C pipe which feeds into the concrete water holding tank in garden started leaking where it screws on, as the ground shifted and the pipe got pulled out of the connector.

The mess you see in the photo ( http://i67.tinypic.com/bg61eh.jpg ) is half a day's digging through stone, mud and water to get to the pipe, which I managed to cap off via a connector and short length of garden hose (to top up with manually for the time being).

There was no way of shutting off the pipe before, so float valve servicing was a job for a pair of goggles, freezing hands, and lots of spare split-pins and swearing! Now I've got access to the pipe, I'd like to:

* Install a box for the connection to live in for easy access including a stop valve
* Tee off a standpipe for a garden hose
* Not have to replace the current copper threaded fitting which is embedded in the side of the tank.

Additionally, the tank is fed via a tee from local farmers trough feed,

Distinctly want a non return valve to prevent any chance of siphoning back frm trough feeder.

which in turn comes from a spring catchment which runs into a large holding tank on a hill which serves several properties. When there's been heavy (or little) rain, the water gets silty, and every 2 years I clean out about 4 inches of silt from the bottom of the tank and then jetwash and flush the whole system with a few drops of hydrochloric acid.

Rainwater Harvesting generic term your looking for.


Sometimes, some of the silt doesn't get time to settle, and despite the take-off pipe being about a foot off the bottom of the tank, particles then gets pumped up to the header tank in the roof, so I have to clean that and the toilet cisterns out from time to time.

Rainwater harvesting tanks looked at so far , when they feed a header tank, seem to usually use electric pump to header and a floating pick up pipe that always takes off from just below top surface of tank.

Upper and lower limit switches on header tank will stop it constantly cycling.


There's a fine particulate filter for the kitchen tap but I think that putting one of these inline before the outside tank would just clog up quickly . I've "googled it" but I just have so many options, many way beyond my budget. I'm a self-employed single parent financially recovering from the summer holidays, can't afford the plumber's quotes but have basic plumbing skills - what are my options, preferably keeping the whole lot under £200 max?

Cyclone filters also known as vortex filters for rainwater :

https://www.gemgate.ie/online-shop/d...r-wff-100.html

or swirl filter for aquaponic and koi keeping community

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_h-WEZW5kE

First line filtering , relatively low flow , within budget

https://www.guttermate.co.uk/diverte...e-filter..html


Thank you!

(side notes before anyone gets alarmed: yes, this is drinking water, but we've got a fine particulate filter and UV on the kitchen tap, only use it for tea and coffee, and have big refillable bottles to make cold drinks from in the kitchen. And it (just) passes the occasional mandatory local council test).

Reverse Osmosis, RO, filter and UV steriliser seems to be the favoured combo, plenty around within budget

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-Stage-Re...-/141719420729

Have an interest since about to take over property that had mains water disconnected some years ago, may I ask how your sewage and drainage is handled?

now also back looking into off mains sewasge solutions...

Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?) pipe questions
 

In message , Adam
Aglionby writes
On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 5:56:25 PM UTC+1, lardconcepts wrote:
The black half inch class C pipe which feeds into the concrete water
holding tank in garden started leaking where it screws on, as the
ground shifted and the pipe got pulled out of the connector.

The mess you see in the photo ( http://i67.tinypic.com/bg61eh.jpg )
is half a day's digging through stone, mud and water to get to the
pipe, which I managed to cap off via a connector and short length of
garden hose (to top up with manually for the time being).

There was no way of shutting off the pipe before, so float valve
servicing was a job for a pair of goggles, freezing hands, and lots of
spare split-pins and swearing! Now I've got access to the pipe, I'd
like to:

* Install a box for the connection to live in for easy access
including a stop valve
* Tee off a standpipe for a garden hose
* Not have to replace the current copper threaded fitting which is
embedded in the side of the tank.

Additionally, the tank is fed via a tee from local farmers trough feed,

Distinctly want a non return valve to prevent any chance of siphoning
back frm trough feeder.

I'm no plumber but should that be a double air break non return valve?
(specified by the water co when I asked for a metered field supply).

--
Tim Lamb

Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?)pipe questions
 

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 3:14:41 PM UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:

I'm no plumber but should that be a double air break non return valve?
(specified by the water co when I asked for a metered field supply).

--
Tim Lamb

Not a plumber either, but learning quick, appears to be known as a DCV for short

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/15mm-Doubl...-/111512019733

Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?)pipe questions
 

On 05/09/2016 10:23, Dave Liquorice wrote:
The quick up to nearly 100 C and back down "boiling" of a kettle
won't kill everything. Cryptosporidium is pretty robust

OK, I'm not paranoid enough... that's nasty stuff. Looks like he does
need the UV.

Andy

Off-mains water tank and half inch class C black (alkathene?)pipe questions
 

On Monday, 5 September 2016 13:26:55 UTC+1, Adam Aglionby wrote:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-Stage-Re...-/141719420729

Ah, interesting, and significantly cheaper than what I have looked at before.

may I ask how your sewage and drainage is handled?

Old septic tank - only needed emptying once in 8 years. Seems to work well even though we bleach the toilets. Not sure of the exact type, but apparently is has several pipes which fan out under the garden through which grey water seeps.

End result is zero water rates. Nice!