http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36852222
inequality, neglect, prejudice, insecurity and discrimination.
The big picture?
LMFAO.
The guy is a joke.
Unilateral disarmament?
That's the way to do it (in a squeaky voice).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_and_Judy
It's 2016 FFS.
Let's hope he gets re-elected and screws the screwed party.
There's not a single statesman/woman amongst'em cept possibly Benn who might
well sell us out to the krauts.
Who knows.
Howdya.know when a politician is lying, their lips are moving.
The whole system is corrupt IMHO.
Everyone is out for themselves, **** everyone else.
Hmmmmmmm, maybe i'm a tad pessimistic.

Out of date does not equate to being wrong though. One has to guard against
the so called wisdom from the new Labourites and the original idea of
socialism. The clue is in the word.
I'd suggest if there really is a groundswell of real socialists out there,
and this is reflected in the general population, he should have no trouble
setting up a party with his union friends and money and getting all the new
Labour MPs voted out at the next election. I don't understand why he is
trying to make square pegs go into round holes. Most of the new Labour folk
have more in common with lib dems than a true socialist party.
The fear for many is that socialism leads to communism, but that is just
being silly. It should lead to decisions made for the community, not the
people who are making all the money. I remember Harold Wilson who tried to
stop rich people taking their money out of the country. that did not work
back then either.

However, I do feel that a state owned non profit organisation should run
things like public transport and key industries like electricity and gas
distribution.The main issue is to make them competitive without competition
and the profit motive. One needs a new morality of doing the right thing. a
social conscience, much lacking today.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"bm" wrote in message
web.com...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36852222
inequality, neglect, prejudice, insecurity and discrimination.
The big picture?
LMFAO.
The guy is a joke.
Unilateral disarmament?
That's the way to do it (in a squeaky voice).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_and_Judy
It's 2016 FFS.
Let's hope he gets re-elected and screws the screwed party.
There's not a single statesman/woman amongst'em cept possibly Benn who
might well sell us out to the krauts.
Who knows.
Howdya.know when a politician is lying, their lips are moving.
The whole system is corrupt IMHO.
Everyone is out for themselves, **** everyone else.
Hmmmmmmm, maybe i'm a tad pessimistic.

Brian Gaff wrote

Out of date does not equate to being wrong though.

True.

One has to guard against the so called wisdom from the new Labourites

Only if it is wrong.

and the original idea of socialism. The clue is in the word.

Not clear what you are saying there.

I'd suggest if there really is a groundswell of real socialists out there,

Of course there is.

and this is reflected in the general population,

Of course it is. His problem is that there aren't enough who
believe in that approach to ever get to be the govt anymore.

he should have no trouble setting up a party with his union friends and
money and getting all the new Labour MPs voted out at the next election.

He will if there isnt enough of them. Just like UKIP couldn’t manage to get
enough MPs elected, even tho a majority do want Britain to leave the EU.

I don't understand why he is trying to make square pegs go into round
holes.

He basically believes that the old hard left policys are the correct ones.

Most of the new Labour folk have more in common with lib dems than a true
socialist party.

Yes, but for some reason they prefer to be part of Labour.

Just as true of Blair and Brown too.

The fear for many is that socialism leads to communism, but that is just
being silly.

Yes.

It should lead to decisions made for the community, not the people who are
making all the money.

That isnt what right of center politics is about.

I remember Harold Wilson who tried to stop rich people taking their money
out of the country. that did not work back then either.

And to remove the money from them with punitive
death dutys etc. That doesn’t work either.

However, I do feel that a state owned non profit organisation should run
things like public transport and key industries like electricity and gas
distribution.

That is certainly a defendable position. Same
with schools, health care and universitys etc too.

The main issue is to make them competitive without competition and the
profit motive.

Yes, that that just isnt possible with
any of what you listed and I added to.

One needs a new morality of doing the right thing. a social conscience,
much lacking today.

It always was. It was only ever a tiny minority
of the capitalists that ever had much of that.

On 21/07/16 11:12, Brian Gaff wrote:
The fear for many is that socialism leads to communism,

no, it IS communism, repackaged.


--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
Out of date does not equate to being wrong though. One has to guard
against the so called wisdom from the new Labourites and the original
idea of socialism. The clue is in the word. I'd suggest if there really
is a groundswell of real socialists out there, and this is reflected in
the general population, he should have no trouble setting up a party
with his union friends and money and getting all the new Labour MPs
voted out at the next election.

All the hysteria on here about him is really funny. They say he is so
'stupid' etc he has no chance of getting elected.

So just why the hysteria?

--
*I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 21/07/2016 11:12, Brian Gaff wrote:


However, I do feel that a state owned non profit organisation should run
things like public transport and key industries like electricity and gas

Some us remember how bad British Rail (and the GPO) was at it's worst.
Even Jimmy Savile used to advertise it on telly, but it provoked one
chap to take legal action against the ASA because the advert bore no
relation to reality.

The socialists would still be generating 60% of our electricity with
coal costing about 30p/kwh and no chance of switching suppliers. In
the 70's huge areas of scandinavaian forest were dying because of
acid rain caused by the UK sulpher emissions. Don't hear about that
now.

Railtracks assets were stolen from its owners by Byers and Hewitt in
2001 and were given to Network Rail a 'not for profit' organisation
that has become the most expensive rail infrastructure company in
Europe. It has been allowed to rack up eye-watering borrowings that
don't appear on the PSBR and after only three years started reporting
annual 'profits' which were then used as the reason why it could pay
its top directors million pound annual 'bonuses'.

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Some us remember how bad British Rail (and the GPO) was at it's worst.
Even Jimmy Savile used to advertise it on telly, but it provoked one
chap to take legal action against the ASA because the advert bore no
relation to reality.

Good to remember. And there are now absolutely no complaints against BT
who provides a perfect service. As do all the various rail networks.

--
*I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Some us remember how bad British Rail (and the GPO) was at it's
worst. Even Jimmy Savile used to advertise it on telly, but it
provoked one
chap to take legal action against the ASA because the advert bore no
relation to reality.

Good to remember. And there are now absolutely no complaints against BT
who provides a perfect service. As do all the various rail networks.

The difference is that these entities can be regulated and taxed,
unlike the old nationalised industries, which were sinks of money.

My sister used to complain about how cheap water provision used to be,
and ooh look how much it costs now. Overlooking that the nationalised
water boards, for whatever reason, did no investment in their victorian
infrastructure, unlike the water companies now, which have been ordered
to do so at no cost to the taxpayer.


Correction, at vast cost to the taxpayer. I am not aware of any
water company building new reservoirs in recent years, even though the
population is increasing rapidly. Some water companies are borrowing
money at 7% interest rates for no good reason. Companies should be
selling shares to raise capital, not taking out unnecessary loans.

On 21/07/16 03:33, bm wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36852222
inequality, neglect, prejudice, insecurity and discrimination.
The big picture?
LMFAO.
The guy is a joke.
Unilateral disarmament?
That's the way to do it (in a squeaky voice).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_and_Judy
It's 2016 FFS.
Let's hope he gets re-elected and screws the screwed party.
There's not a single statesman/woman amongst'em cept possibly Benn who might
well sell us out to the krauts.
Who knows.
Howdya.know when a politician is lying, their lips are moving.
The whole system is corrupt IMHO.
Everyone is out for themselves, **** everyone else.
Hmmmmmmm, maybe i'm a tad pessimistic.



I take it you welcome a new age of barbarism and just shrug at the
misfortunes of others.

Really, what kind of numpty thinks that those ideas of equality and
respect have somehow had their day? They have been around a few thousand
years, as long a civilisation, as long as people have tried to work out
how they can live together and lead decent lives.

I suppose there's always a few saddos around who are only out for
themselves.

Tim W

"TimW" wrote in message
...
snip
I suppose there's always a few saddos around who are only out for
themselves.

Corbyn, for one.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 21/07/16 11:12, Brian Gaff wrote:
The fear for many is that socialism leads to communism,

no, it IS communism, repackaged.

Modern socialism is having the government do what it makes
sense for government to do like schools, roads, cops, the NHS
etc without any intention to have the government do everything.

ALL modern economies are a mix of socialism and capitalism,
even Hong Kong before it was handed back to China was with
the schools, copes, roads etc and with a very minimal amount
of welfare for the poorest of the poor too.

The only difference is what is done by government and what
isn't with some of the stuff like the phone service, postal service,
supply of electricity and gas and water and airlines etc.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Brian Gaff wrote

Out of date does not equate to being wrong though. One has to
guard against the so called wisdom from the new Labourites and
the original idea of socialism. The clue is in the word. I'd suggest
if there really is a groundswell of real socialists out there, and this
is reflected in the general population, he should have no trouble
setting up a party with his union friends and money and getting
all the new Labour MPs voted out at the next election.

All the hysteria on here about him is really funny.

You wouldn’t know what real hysteria was
if it bit you on your lard alcoholic arse.

They say he is so 'stupid' etc he
has no chance of getting elected.

No chance of getting elected to govt, anyway.

So just why the hysteria?

First you claim everyone is fascinated about Corbyn,
now you claim they are all hysterical about Corbyn.

You can't even manage a viable bare faced lie.

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Some us remember how bad British Rail (and the GPO) was at it's worst.
Even Jimmy Savile used to advertise it on telly, but it provoked one
chap to take legal action against the ASA because the advert bore no
relation to reality.

Good to remember. And there are now absolutely no complaints against BT
who provides a perfect service.
Damn sight better than GPO where all the profits could be ripped out by
politicians to subsidise an overstaffed totally inefficient postal
service. And of course other network providers are available.
As do all the various rail networks.

That would be why there was a mass of complaints from passengers when
they tried to take the franchise away from Virgin Trains.
--
bert

In article , Capitol
writes
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Some us remember how bad British Rail (and the GPO) was at it's
worst. Even Jimmy Savile used to advertise it on telly, but it
provoked one
chap to take legal action against the ASA because the advert bore no
relation to reality.

Good to remember. And there are now absolutely no complaints against BT
who provides a perfect service. As do all the various rail networks.

The difference is that these entities can be regulated and taxed,
unlike the old nationalised industries, which were sinks of money.

My sister used to complain about how cheap water provision used to be,
and ooh look how much it costs now. Overlooking that the nationalised
water boards, for whatever reason, did no investment in their victorian
infrastructure, unlike the water companies now, which have been ordered
to do so at no cost to the taxpayer.


Correction, at vast cost to the taxpayer. I am not aware of any
water company building new reservoirs in recent years, even though the
population is increasing rapidly.
Where would you like to build them?
Some water companies are borrowing money at 7% interest rates for no
good reason. Companies should be selling shares to raise capital, not
taking out unnecessary loans.
Interesting aspect of corporate governance. Directors can take out loans
without permission of the shareholders. However share issues have to be
agreed and are much more expensive and complicated. There is also always
a risk they may be under-subscribed.
--
bert

On 21/07/16 20:10, MKF wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 21/07/16 11:12, Brian Gaff wrote:
The fear for many is that socialism leads to communism,

no, it IS communism, repackaged.

Modern socialism is having the government do what it makes
sense for government to do like schools, roads, cops, the NHS
etc without any intention to have the government do everything.


No, it isn't.

ALL modern economies are a mix of socialism and capitalism,
even Hong Kong before it was handed back to China was with
the schools, copes, roads etc and with a very minimal amount
of welfare for the poorest of the poor too.

The only difference is what is done by government and what
isn't with some of the stuff like the phone service, postal service,
supply of electricity and gas and water and airlines etc.


--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

"Capitol" wrote in message
...
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Some us remember how bad British Rail (and the GPO) was at it's worst.
Even Jimmy Savile used to advertise it on telly, but it provoked one
chap to take legal action against the ASA because the advert bore no
relation to reality.

Good to remember. And there are now absolutely no complaints against BT
who provides a perfect service. As do all the various rail networks.

The difference is that these entities can be regulated and taxed,
unlike the old nationalised industries, which were sinks of money.

My sister used to complain about how cheap water provision used to be,
and ooh look how much it costs now. Overlooking that the nationalised
water boards, for whatever reason, did no investment in their victorian
infrastructure, unlike the water companies now, which have been ordered
to do so at no cost to the taxpayer.


Correction, at vast cost to the taxpayer. I am not aware of any water
company building new reservoirs in recent years, even though the
population is increasing rapidly. Some water companies are borrowing money
at 7% interest rates for no good reason. Companies should be selling
shares to raise capital, not taking out unnecessary loans.

They wont necessarily be able to find anyone to sell their shares to.

TimW wrote
bm wrote

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36852222
inequality, neglect, prejudice, insecurity and discrimination.
The big picture?
LMFAO.
The guy is a joke.
Unilateral disarmament?
That's the way to do it (in a squeaky voice).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_and_Judy
It's 2016 FFS.
Let's hope he gets re-elected and screws the screwed party.
There's not a single statesman/woman amongst'em cept possibly Benn who
might
well sell us out to the krauts.
Who knows.
Howdya.know when a politician is lying, their lips are moving.
The whole system is corrupt IMHO.
Everyone is out for themselves, **** everyone else.
Hmmmmmmm, maybe i'm a tad pessimistic.

I take it you welcome a new age of barbarism and just shrug at the
misfortunes of others.

That's dishonest.

Really, what kind of numpty thinks that those ideas of equality and
respect have somehow had their day?

There will never be equality, there will always be the
dregs of society that don’t bother to get qualified
and prefer to put their hands out for benefits and
a council house than actually doing any work.

Those that do that don’t deserve any respect what so ever.

Even that fool Blair realised that that isnt a viable society.

They have been around a few thousand years, as long a civilisation, as
long as people have tried to work out how they can live together and lead
decent lives.

But no one has ever been able to come up with
what to do about those who choose not to work
and who put their hand out to the state instead.

I suppose there's always a few saddos around who are only out for
themselves.

Yes, there are dregs of society at all levels.

On 21/07/2016 16:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Some us remember how bad British Rail (and the GPO) was at it's worst.
Even Jimmy Savile used to advertise it on telly, but it provoked one
chap to take legal action against the ASA because the advert bore no
relation to reality.

Good to remember. And there are now absolutely no complaints against BT
who provides a perfect service. As do all the various rail networks.

In the case of BT, the disparity between what they are now and what the
GPO used to be like, almost make that statement plausible.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
On 21/07/2016 16:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Some us remember how bad British Rail (and the GPO) was at it's worst.
Even Jimmy Savile used to advertise it on telly, but it provoked one
chap to take legal action against the ASA because the advert bore no
relation to reality.

Good to remember. And there are now absolutely no complaints against BT
who provides a perfect service. As do all the various rail networks.

In the case of BT, the disparity between what they are now and what
the GPO used to be like, almost make that statement plausible.



BT internet in trouble again for a 3rd day? Very slow here.

On 22/07/2016 12:05, Capitol wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 21/07/2016 16:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
Some us remember how bad British Rail (and the GPO) was at it's worst.
Even Jimmy Savile used to advertise it on telly, but it provoked one
chap to take legal action against the ASA because the advert bore no
relation to reality.

Good to remember. And there are now absolutely no complaints against BT
who provides a perfect service. As do all the various rail networks.

In the case of BT, the disparity between what they are now and what
the GPO used to be like, almost make that statement plausible.



BT internet in trouble again for a 3rd day? Very slow here.

I did say "almost"...

Can you imaging ordering your GPO "internet" facility, and having to
wait six months for an engineer to come out and install your GPO branded
dial up modem, which you rent from them at £4/month extra. Oh, and you
can't have it near the computer, you will need to move that to the hall!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Can you imaging ordering your GPO "internet" facility, and having to
wait six months for an engineer to come out and install your GPO branded
dial up modem, which you rent from them at £4/month extra. Oh, and you
can't have it near the computer, you will need to move that to the hall!

Can you just imagine having a state owned company running the railways or
generating power, etc.

Yet that's exactly what we have. But owned by another state - not the UK.

Very easy to make any industry a failing one. State owned or private. Just
starve it of investment. That killed off most UK industries nicely. But
not elsewhere.

--
*A backward poet writes inverse.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Can you imaging ordering your GPO "internet" facility, and having to
wait six months for an engineer to come out and install your GPO branded
dial up modem, which you rent from them at £4/month extra. Oh, and you
can't have it near the computer, you will need to move that to the hall!

Can you just imagine having a state owned company running the railways or
generating power, etc.

Yet that's exactly what we have. But owned by another state - not the UK.

Very easy to make any industry a failing one. State owned or private. Just
starve it of investment. That killed off most UK industries nicely. But
not elsewhere.

The other sure-fire way of killing any industry is to split it into lots of
separate business centres which charge each other money to do business with
each other, and expend money and time in keeping track of these costs,
whereas previously there was a spirit of "we're all one big company so we've
got to cooperate with each other". I've seen it happen so many times in the
computer industry (Ferranti, ICL, Fujitsu) where other departments want to
be paid explicitly for the service that they provide us, which is a great
disincentive for using them when it used to be "for free" (ie rolled up into
an invisible cost that was not on a per-use basis).

In article , NY
wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , John
Rumm wrote:
Can you imaging ordering your GPO "internet" facility, and having to
wait six months for an engineer to come out and install your GPO
branded dial up modem, which you rent from them at £4/month extra. Oh,
and you can't have it near the computer, you will need to move that to
the hall!

Can you just imagine having a state owned company running the railways
or generating power, etc.

Yet that's exactly what we have. But owned by another state - not the
UK.

Very easy to make any industry a failing one. State owned or private.
Just starve it of investment. That killed off most UK industries
nicely. But not elsewhere.

The other sure-fire way of killing any industry is to split it into lots
of separate business centres which charge each other money to do
business with each other, and expend money and time in keeping track of
these costs, whereas previously there was a spirit of "we're all one big
company so we've got to cooperate with each other". I've seen it happen
so many times in the computer industry (Ferranti, ICL, Fujitsu) where
other departments want to be paid explicitly for the service that they
provide us, which is a great disincentive for using them when it used to
be "for free" (ie rolled up into an invisible cost that was not on a
per-use basis).

The BBC suffered in this was, too.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article , NY
wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , John
Rumm wrote:
Can you imaging ordering your GPO "internet" facility, and having to
wait six months for an engineer to come out and install your GPO
branded dial up modem, which you rent from them at £4/month extra. Oh,
and you can't have it near the computer, you will need to move that to
the hall!

Can you just imagine having a state owned company running the
railways or generating power, etc.

Yet that's exactly what we have. But owned by another state - not
the UK.

Very easy to make any industry a failing one. State owned or
private. Just starve it of investment. That killed off most UK
industries nicely. But not elsewhere.

The other sure-fire way of killing any industry is to split it into
lots of separate business centres which charge each other money to do
business with each other, and expend money and time in keeping track
of these costs, whereas previously there was a spirit of "we're all
one big company so we've got to cooperate with each other". I've seen
it happen so many times in the computer industry (Ferranti, ICL,
Fujitsu) where other departments want to be paid explicitly for the
service that they provide us, which is a great disincentive for using
them when it used to be "for free" (ie rolled up into an invisible
cost that was not on a per-use basis).

The BBC suffered in this was, too.

Quite. So called total costing which was anything but. Based on a faulty
model.

--
*Why is it that doctors call what they do "practice"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
John Rumm wrote

Can you imaging ordering your GPO "internet" facility, and having to
wait six months for an engineer to come out and install your GPO branded
dial up modem, which you rent from them at £4/month extra. Oh, and you
can't have it near the computer, you will need to move that to the hall!

Can you just imagine having a state owned company
running the railways or generating power, etc.

Yet that's exactly what we have. But owned by another state - not the UK.

That is a bare faced lie.

Very easy to make any industry a failing one. State owned or private.
Just starve it of investment. That killed off most UK industries nicely.

Another pig ignorant lie.

But not elsewhere.

On Thursday, 21 July 2016 03:33:08 UTC+1, bm wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36852222
inequality, neglect, prejudice, insecurity and discrimination.
The big picture?
LMFAO.
The guy is a joke.
Unilateral disarmament?
That's the way to do it (in a squeaky voice).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punch_and_Judy
It's 2016 FFS.

But things are better now we have bigger windmills for instance:
https://youtu.be/o6zNwBTLSWU

Survivalism never had a chance back then. But weeddobottob nowdoblobodob!


Let's hope he gets re-elected and screws the screwed party.
There's not a single statesman/woman amongst'em cept possibly Benn who might
well sell us out to the krauts.
Who knows.
Howdya.know when a politician is lying, their lips are moving.
The whole system is corrupt IMHO.
Everyone is out for themselves, **** everyone else.
Hmmmmmmm, maybe i'm a tad pessimistic.

Yeeb! Bebeeebe yeeba ebeeb bebeebeebeeb!
Maybe you should try dancing around on one foot?

Have you already tried that?
Give it a go, why don't you?
You never know your luck.

On 21/07/2016 15:48, Tim Streater wrote:

Because the job of the Opposition is to hold the government to account.
Jezza is failing spectacularly at that, and it's because he is a
rubbish leader.

But the opposition in parliament isn't just one man. It includes that
whole group of labour politicians who have decided that they no longer
want to be an opposition and have decided to play silly internal games.
And, what's worse, spend a long time about it!



--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 22/07/2016 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Can you imaging ordering your GPO "internet" facility, and having to
wait six months for an engineer to come out and install your GPO branded
dial up modem, which you rent from them at £4/month extra. Oh, and you
can't have it near the computer, you will need to move that to the hall!


And not being able to even connect any modern technology* to the phone
line without themselves approving it first. Anyone want to buy an
up-to-date 14.4k modem? We will get around to approving 28.8k modems
some time in the next few years.?

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Can you imaging ordering your GPO "internet" facility, and having to
wait six months for an engineer to come out and install your GPO branded
dial up modem, which you rent from them at £4/month extra. Oh, and you
can't have it near the computer, you will need to move that to the hall!

Can you just imagine having a state owned company running the railways or
generating power, etc.

Yet that's exactly what we have. But owned by another state - not the UK.

Very easy to make any industry a failing one. State owned or private.
Just
starve it of investment. That killed off most UK industries nicely. But
not elsewhere.

The other sure-fire way of killing any industry is to split it into lots
of separate business centres which charge each other money to do business
with each other, and expend money and time in keeping track of these
costs, whereas previously there was a spirit of "we're all one big company
so we've got to cooperate with each other". I've seen it happen so many
times in the computer industry (Ferranti, ICL, Fujitsu) where other
departments want to be paid explicitly for the service that they provide
us, which is a great disincentive for using them when it used to be "for
free" (ie rolled up into an invisible cost that was not on a per-use
basis).

I worked for a company that decided its car pool had to work on a commercial
basis (the same department also managed the company cars)

They came up with a scale of charges that made it cheaper to get a car from
the high street hire shop, and you got a new car instead of the 10 year old
heap that was in the pool.

(The company got taken over 6 months later and I was "managed out" of the
job, so I have no idea how it ended)

tim

In article ,
alan_m wrote:
On 22/07/2016 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Can you imaging ordering your GPO "internet" facility, and having to
wait six months for an engineer to come out and install your GPO
branded dial up modem, which you rent from them at £4/month extra. Oh,
and you can't have it near the computer, you will need to move that to
the hall!


And not being able to even connect any modern technology* to the phone
line without themselves approving it first. Anyone want to buy an
up-to-date 14.4k modem? We will get around to approving 28.8k modems
some time in the next few years.?

Absolutely. Just like the BBC starting TV in black and white with mono
sound rather than in colour and stereo. And insisting we used tiny CRT TVs
rather than widescreen LCD. Why indeed did they ever use analogue when
everyone knows now that digital is the way to go?

--
*A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Huge wrote:
And as soon as you start having internal charging, you discover that a
significant part of the work of the company is done undocumented on
a "best effort" basis that no-one knew about. This is particularly
"amusing" when you outsource that function and either that work no
longer gets done, or the outsourcer starts to charge for it.

That was a famous bit about the BBC record library. It cost more to hire
an LP from them than it cost to buy - assuming still current. So some
producers sent an assistant out to buy the record instead. But I'll bet
didn't include how much sending that person cost.

--
*We never really grow up, we only learn how to act in public.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 23/07/2016 11:18, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
alan_m wrote:
On 22/07/2016 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Can you imaging ordering your GPO "internet" facility, and having to
wait six months for an engineer to come out and install your GPO
branded dial up modem, which you rent from them at £4/month extra. Oh,
and you can't have it near the computer, you will need to move that to
the hall!


And not being able to even connect any modern technology* to the phone
line without themselves approving it first. Anyone want to buy an
up-to-date 14.4k modem? We will get around to approving 28.8k modems
some time in the next few years.?

Absolutely. Just like the BBC starting TV in black and white with mono
sound rather than in colour and stereo. And insisting we used tiny CRT TVs
rather than widescreen LCD. Why indeed did they ever use analogue when
everyone knows now that digital is the way to go?

So you are suggesting that our memories of GPO Telecoms must be
distorted, it was in fact a modern dynamic company with the customer's
interests first and foremost, and a keen eye on deploying cutting edge
technology as soon as it became available?



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , John Rumm
wrote:
On 23/07/2016 11:18, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , alan_m
wrote:
On 22/07/2016 12:38, John Rumm wrote:

Can you imaging ordering your GPO "internet" facility, and having to
wait six months for an engineer to come out and install your GPO
branded dial up modem, which you rent from them at £4/month extra.
Oh, and you can't have it near the computer, you will need to move
that to the hall!


And not being able to even connect any modern technology* to the phone
line without themselves approving it first. Anyone want to buy an
up-to-date 14.4k modem? We will get around to approving 28.8k modems
some time in the next few years.?

Absolutely. Just like the BBC starting TV in black and white with mono
sound rather than in colour and stereo. And insisting we used tiny CRT
TVs rather than widescreen LCD. Why indeed did they ever use analogue
when everyone knows now that digital is the way to go?

So you are suggesting that our memories of GPO Telecoms must be
distorted, it was in fact a modern dynamic company with the customer's
interests first and foremost, and a keen eye on deploying cutting edge
technology as soon as it became available?

It was a company which suffered under Treasury rules. They were not
allowed to keep "profits" for investment - it all went into that great
"Central Kitty". They had very good research labs but it wsn't until they
were privatised that investment in new prodcuts went ahead..

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Absolutely. Just like the BBC starting TV in black and white with mono
sound rather than in colour and stereo. And insisting we used tiny CRT TVs
rather than widescreen LCD. Why indeed did they ever use analogue when
everyone knows now that digital is the way to go?

So you are suggesting that our memories of GPO Telecoms must be
distorted, it was in fact a modern dynamic company with the customer's
interests first and foremost, and a keen eye on deploying cutting edge
technology as soon as it became available?

I am suggesting some of that, yes. Do some research on System X. Digital
transmission systems in conjunction with the BBC. And so on.

I don't like monopolies, so competition was obviously needed. Just how the
old GPO would have adapted to that can only be conjecture. The PO side of
it did pretty well. But of course had to be sold off as anything in public
ownership is *a bad thing*. Except, of course, the police. Armed forces.
And anything which was in private hands but failed. Need some names of
those?

However, are you really saying our present telephone etc system is perfect?

--
*Always borrow money from pessimists - they don't expect it back *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 23/07/2016 14:25, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Absolutely. Just like the BBC starting TV in black and white with mono
sound rather than in colour and stereo. And insisting we used tiny CRT TVs
rather than widescreen LCD. Why indeed did they ever use analogue when
everyone knows now that digital is the way to go?

So you are suggesting that our memories of GPO Telecoms must be
distorted, it was in fact a modern dynamic company with the customer's
interests first and foremost, and a keen eye on deploying cutting edge
technology as soon as it became available?

I am suggesting some of that, yes. Do some research on System X. Digital
transmission systems in conjunction with the BBC. And so on.

I am well aware of some of the GPO research achievements[1]. They were
not usually the problem! (as with the modern BT - the technical guys on
the ground doing the work and the research, are usually very good)

[1] Especially when you include the ground breaking work done at places
like Post Office Research Station at Dollis Hill, and people like Tommy
Flowers.

I don't like monopolies, so competition was obviously needed.

Indeed, and the old GPO was a good example of the many things wrong with
old state run monopolies.

Just how the
old GPO would have adapted to that can only be conjecture.

Slowly I suspect is the answer (at least in the absence of any real
competition)

The PO side of
it did pretty well. But of course had to be sold off as anything in public
ownership is *a bad thing*. Except, of course, the police. Armed forces.
And anything which was in private hands but failed. Need some names of
those?

However, are you really saying our present telephone etc system is perfect?

No, but in spite of its many problems it is still a world class
telecomms company, and has advanced unrecognisably from its GPO roots.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
charles wrote:
So you are suggesting that our memories of GPO Telecoms must be
distorted, it was in fact a modern dynamic company with the customer's
interests first and foremost, and a keen eye on deploying cutting edge
technology as soon as it became available?

It was a company which suffered under Treasury rules. They were not
allowed to keep "profits" for investment - it all went into that great
"Central Kitty". They had very good research labs but it wsn't until
they were privatised that investment in new prodcuts went ahead..

Pretty standard for many UK industries at that time both state and
private. Take the maximum you possibly can out of them. Investment was for
stupid countries like Germany.

--
*What do you call a dinosaur with an extensive vocabulary? A thesaurus.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
John Rumm wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote

Absolutely. Just like the BBC starting TV in black and white with mono
sound rather than in colour and stereo. And insisting we used tiny CRT
TVs rather than widescreen LCD. Why indeed did they ever use
analogue when everyone knows now that digital is the way to go?

So you are suggesting that our memories of GPO Telecoms must
be distorted, it was in fact a modern dynamic company with the
customer's interests first and foremost, and a keen eye on deploying
cutting edge technology as soon as it became available?

I am suggesting some of that, yes. Do some research on System X.
Digital transmission systems in conjunction with the BBC. And so on.

I don't like monopolies, so competition was obviously needed. Just how the
old GPO would have adapted to that can only be conjecture. The PO side of
it did pretty well. But of course had to be sold off as anything in public
ownership is *a bad thing*. Except, of course, the police. Armed forces.

That's another bare faced lie with all of the schools, the absolute vast
bulk of the roads, the NHS, the national insurance system, etc etc etc.

However, are you really saying our present telephone etc system is
perfect?

No one is saying anything even remotely like that.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
charles wrote

So you are suggesting that our memories of GPO Telecoms must
be distorted, it was in fact a modern dynamic company with the
customer's interests first and foremost, and a keen eye on deploying
cutting edge technology as soon as it became available?

It was a company which suffered under Treasury rules. They were not
allowed to keep "profits" for investment - it all went into that great
"Central Kitty". They had very good research labs but it wsn't until
they were privatised that investment in new prodcuts went ahead..

Pretty standard for many UK industries at that time both state
and private. Take the maximum you possibly can out of them.

That is a bare faced lie with the most successful private ones.

Investment was for stupid countries like Germany.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

On 21/07/2016 17:44, Capitol wrote:

Correction, at vast cost to the taxpayer. I am not aware of any
water company building new reservoirs in recent years, even though the
population is increasing rapidly. Some water companies are borrowing
money at 7% interest rates for no good reason. Companies should be
selling shares to raise capital, not taking out unnecessary loans.

If they are PLC then they do sell shares, and issue corporate bonds too.

However, many water companies in the UK have been sold to overseas
owners that are private companies without shareholders.

On 22/07/2016 13:14, NY wrote:

The other sure-fire way of killing any industry is to split it into lots
of separate business centres which charge each other money to do
business with each other, and expend money and time in keeping track of
these costs,

Really ?. Apple, Google, Amazon, Ebay and Starbucks have been doing
this for years.