On 12/03/2016 22:56, Jonno wrote:
Capitol scribbled


Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
The Natural wrote:

The EU has bribed and connived and corrupted its way into getting little
countries to sign up to satisfy its appetite for neo-colonial
territorial aggrandisement.

That will be why the likes of Turkey has been trying to get in for years?

You are actually worse than Wodney for telling lies.



Turkey trying to get in is another nail in the coffin of the
EU. The next step is even more unwanted immigrants, lower wages and
higher house prices and taxes. Just what a Socialist dreams of? Time to
govern ourselves again I think.


Lower wages and higher house prices. HTF does that work?

Its called supply and demand, the sort of things socialists are in
denial of.

More immigrants = too many people chasing too few jobs = lower wages.
More immigrants = increased demand on housing = higher house prices.

Is that any help?

dennis@home wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

Great - leave the EU and be allowed to eat poisonous cauliflowers.

No, leave the EU and NOT be forced to import poisonous cauliflowers.

We are *forced* to import such things?

Yes. While ever Britain is in the EU, it can't ban imports
from other EU countrys that don’t bother to enforce the
legislation on the time between spraying and harvest.

Rubbish,

Fact, no EU country can blanket ban all imports
of a particular item from another EU country that
doesn’t bother to enforce the legislation on the
time between spraying and harvest.

the government can order them to be destroyed.

No they can not do that BY COUNTRY.

Who will import them to have them destroyed?

Having fun trashing that straw man ?

In message ,
writes

Every time I hear an Outer talking is persudes me to vote In
every time I head an Inner talking they persuade me to vote Out.

+1

I'm still undecided. Initially, I would have voted to stay in, without
much thought, then, after some listening and reading, I veered towards
out. Now, I just don't know, although stay seems favourite.

What is the EU really all about? Go back 60+ years and an integrated
Europe was about prevention of another European war. That was first and
foremost, at least from the British view. Anything else was almost a
bonus.

Look at the possibility of a UK exit from the European side. Is it
really about Britain leaving, or about Britain setting a precedent? Were
we to leave, would any other countries follow? Not the recent members,
but any of the longer term 'traditional' European countries who also
feel hard done by? The possibility of the EU becoming Germany and all
the hangers on?

Just suppose Brexit did result in other exits over time and, eventually,
to the downfall of Europe as we have known it since WWII. Just suppose
it did lead to another European war. Could I ever forgive myself if I
had voted out, even if I were six feet under by then?
--
Graeme

"News" wrote in message ...

In message ,
writes

Every time I hear an Outer talking is persudes me to vote In
every time I head an Inner talking they persuade me to vote Out.

+1

I'm still undecided. Initially, I would have voted to stay in, without
much thought, then, after some listening and reading, I veered towards
out. Now, I just don't know, although stay seems favourite.

What is the EU really all about? Go back 60+ years and an integrated
Europe was about prevention of another European war. That was first and
foremost, at least from the British view. Anything else was almost a
bonus.

Look at the possibility of a UK exit from the European side. Is it
really about Britain leaving, or about Britain setting a precedent? Were
we to leave, would any other countries follow? Not the recent members,
but any of the longer term 'traditional' European countries who also
feel hard done by? The possibility of the EU becoming Germany and all
the hangers on?

Just suppose Brexit did result in other exits over time and, eventually,
to the downfall of Europe as we have known it since WWII. Just suppose
it did lead to another European war. Could I ever forgive myself if I
had voted out, even if I were six feet under by then?

Europe has already fallen. The war is happening right now.

News wrote
wrote

Every time I hear an Outer talking is persudes me to vote In
every time I head an Inner talking they persuade me to vote Out.

+1

I'm still undecided. Initially, I would have voted to stay in, without
much thought, then, after some listening and reading, I veered
towards out. Now, I just don't know, although stay seems favourite.

What is the EU really all about?

A better system than with every country separate.

Go back 60+ years and an integrated Europe
was about prevention of another European war.

And that worked very well indeed.

That was first and foremost, at least from the British view.

That is a bit hard to claim given it took Britain so long to join.

Anything else was almost a bonus.

Yes.

Look at the possibility of a UK exit from the European side. Is it
really about Britain leaving, or about Britain setting a precedent?

There is no precedent. Hardy any one else wants to leave.

Were we to leave, would any other countries follow?

No one that matters.

Not the recent members, but any of the longer term 'traditional'
European countries who also feel hard done by? The possibility
of the EU becoming Germany and all the hangers on?

Not going to happen. The other majors don't want to leave.

Just suppose Brexit did result in other exits over time and, eventually,
to the downfall of Europe as we have known it since WWII.

Not going to happen.

Just suppose it did lead to another European war.

Not going to happen either.

Could I ever forgive myself if I had voted
out, even if I were six feet under by then?

Likely not, but there isn't going to be another western
european war even if the EU does cease to exist now.

There may well be another in eastern europe even if
Britain stays in the EU, particularly with the Ukraine etc.

On Saturday, 12 March 2016 14:55:20 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Was listening to Any Questions on the car radio today - so didn't hear all
of it.

One interesting bit was a panel member getting very passionate about how
the EU was ruining UK farming and small businesses, and farmers knew far
more about farming than European bureaucrats. Who were stifling their
businesses with rules and regulations. Ie, the usual sort of thing.

And he was asked to give an example. Just what I always do when I here
such things.

And what was it? He'd seen a Spanish farmer spraying a crop of
cauliflowers with something - presumably an insecticide - and then lifting
them for sale two days later. When the regs say spraying must finish at
least a week before lifting.

Of course no one picked up on this. The implication being he wanted to see
any regulations about the use of insecticides removed. And left purely to
the farmer. To put him on equal footing with a Spanish farmer who was
breaking the law.

Then, in any answers - heard a bit of it after getting home - one guy was
saying the EU had decimated his market in southern Europe due to the Euro.
Now just how us coming out of the EU would make a southern europe country
in the Euro suddenly be able to afford UK goods, he didn't explain.

It's very odd that every industry claims to be hog tied by European
legislation - yet when asked, seem to have problems supplying just one
concrete and important one.


EUSSR bull**** on cabbages.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/651...ective-leaflet

Have they FA else to do with all the immigration bollix going on?

"Richard" wrote in message
...
"News" wrote in message ...

In message ,
writes

Every time I hear an Outer talking is persudes me to vote In
every time I head an Inner talking they persuade me to vote Out.

+1

I'm still undecided. Initially, I would have voted to stay in, without
much thought, then, after some listening and reading, I veered towards
out. Now, I just don't know, although stay seems favourite.

What is the EU really all about? Go back 60+ years and an integrated
Europe was about prevention of another European war. That was first and
foremost, at least from the British view. Anything else was almost a
bonus.

Look at the possibility of a UK exit from the European side. Is it really
about Britain leaving, or about Britain setting a precedent? Were we to
leave, would any other countries follow? Not the recent members, but any
of the longer term 'traditional' European countries who also feel hard
done by? The possibility of the EU becoming Germany and all the hangers
on?

Just suppose Brexit did result in other exits over time and, eventually,
to the downfall of Europe as we have known it since WWII. Just suppose it
did lead to another European war. Could I ever forgive myself if I had
voted out, even if I were six feet under by then?

Europe has already fallen. The war is happening right now.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

In message , Rod Speed
writes
News wrote

What is the EU really all about?

A better system than with every country separate.

Agreed

Go back 60+ years and an integrated Europe was about prevention of
another European war.

And that worked very well indeed.

Agreed

That was first and foremost, at least from the British view.

That is a bit hard to claim given it took Britain so long to join.

I think the initial British reaction was that getting the major counties
on the European mainland to join was enough.

Look at the possibility of a UK exit from the European side. Is it
really about Britain leaving, or about Britain setting a precedent?

There is no precedent. Hardy any one else wants to leave.

Not at the moment. My view is that, longer term, the larger, richer
counties will be supporting the poorer countries which is all well and
good, but only up to a point.

Were we to leave, would any other countries follow?

No one that matters.

Not today, but in the future? The EU view seems to be that they cannot
allow either the EU itself or the Euro to fail, but that is expensive.
Only takes one major player to cut their losses and leave, and the whole
thing starts to fall apart.

Likely not, but there isn't going to be another western european war
even if the EU does cease to exist now.
There may well be another in eastern europe even if
Britain stays in the EU, particularly with the Ukraine etc.

A real war in Eastern Europe would almost certainly spread. What we
have seen so far have been skirmishes. More than skirmishes for those
involved, of course, but in world terms, little more.
--
Graeme

On 12/03/2016 16:04, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


The more I hear on this debate, the more 'ifs' seem to come out. One side
gives a figure unchallenged, another gives an entirely different one again
unchallenged.

Seems to be coming down to who you believe. Very difficult on both sides
since so many are proved liars.


I think those campaigning to leave should be called the 'It's not true
party' as that appears to be their main argument when anyone points out
the pitfalls of leaving.


--
Michael Chare

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

News wrote
Rod Speed wrote
News wrote

What is the EU really all about?

A better system than with every country separate.

Agreed

Go back 60+ years and an integrated Europe
was about prevention of another European war.

And that worked very well indeed.

Agreed

That was first and foremost, at least from the British view.

That is a bit hard to claim given it took Britain so long to join.

I think the initial British reaction was that getting the major
counties on the European mainland to join was enough.

True, but doesn't explain why Britain chose to join later.

Look at the possibility of a UK exit from the European side. Is it
really about Britain leaving, or about Britain setting a precedent?

There is no precedent. Hardy any one else wants to leave.

Not at the moment.

Not ever IMO.

My view is that, longer term, the larger, richer
counties will be supporting the poorer countries
which is all well and good, but only up to a point.

On the other hand, you can claim that Germany
particularly is doing in eastern europe what it
tried to do by military invasion earlier. But this
time they are clamouring to get in.

Were we to leave, would any other countries follow?

No one that matters.

Not today, but in the future?

Can't see that changing myself. I can't see any of the majors
wanting to leave in the future, essentially because they get
something very useful out of the EU. Same with the minors.

A few like Turkey are quite equivocal about whether they
should join or not, but that is more because the EU can
be pretty gung ho about what they demand to see with
stuff like human rights and the political system in the
countries that choose to join the EU and Endogen particularly
is currently in the process of shutting down the opposition
newspaper and telling his court system that if they don't
do what he want there will be severe consequences for
the court etc. It will be fascinating to see what the EU does
about that given that it wants Turkey to stop the flow of
refugees into Greece etc and is prepared to pay Turkey to
do that.

The EU view seems to be that they cannot allow either
the EU itself or the Euro to fail, but that is expensive.

Yes, but it is only a minority in the EU that don't like the cost.

Only takes one major player to cut their losses
and leave, and the whole thing starts to fall apart.

That is only true of Germany or France.

Likely not, but there isn't going to be another western
european war even if the EU does cease to exist now.
There may well be another in eastern europe even if
Britain stays in the EU, particularly with the Ukraine etc.

A real war in Eastern Europe would almost certainly spread.

None of them have with Yugoslavia, Georgia, the Crimea etc.

What we have seen so far have been skirmishes.
More than skirmishes for those involved, of course,
but in world terms, little more.

We will never see anything like Iraq or Afghanistan, you watch.

We might see NATO get involved with Ukraine, but it did
with Yugoslavia and that didn't produce another full war.

Western european countries just don't have the stomach
for full scale war anymore for various reasons. Even WW2
only happed because Germany was in such a desperate
state between the wars that they didn't have much to lose.

The Marshall Plan after WW2 ensured
that they always did have a lot to lose.

One of the most important policy decisions
we have seen for centurys now.

Western europe wont fall into another full world
war like they did in WW1 either, essentially because
it is now clear how things can end up and because
NATO ensures that there isnt the same set of alliances
which produced WW1 when the brown stuff hit the fan.

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
Was listening to Any Questions on the car radio today - so didn't hear all
of it.

One interesting bit was a panel member getting very passionate about how
the EU was ruining UK farming and small businesses, and farmers knew far
more about farming than European bureaucrats. Who were stifling their
businesses with rules and regulations. Ie, the usual sort of thing.

And he was asked to give an example. Just what I always do when I here
such things.

And what was it? He'd seen a Spanish farmer spraying a crop of
cauliflowers with something - presumably an insecticide - and then lifting
them for sale two days later. When the regs say spraying must finish at
least a week before lifting.

Of course no one picked up on this. The implication being he wanted to see
any regulations about the use of insecticides removed. And left purely to
the farmer. To put him on equal footing with a Spanish farmer who was
breaking the law.

I was uncertain what point he was making. The whole episode seemed a bit
flimsy: as if he was reporting a commonly held belief.
Miscounting of Olive trees was an oft reported scam but never with any
reliable evidence.

The audience seemed to believe him.

Then, in any answers - heard a bit of it after getting home - one guy was
saying the EU had decimated his market in southern Europe due to the Euro.
Now just how us coming out of the EU would make a southern europe country
in the Euro suddenly be able to afford UK goods, he didn't explain.

It's very odd that every industry claims to be hog tied by European
legislation - yet when asked, seem to have problems supplying just one
concrete and important one.

Yes. Exactly my view. There is also a perception that our bureaucrats are
better at enforcing legislation than those elsewhere in Europe.

they almost certainly are,

but coming out is not going to change that

tim

Jonno wrote:
Capitol scribbled


Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In ,
The Natural wrote:


The EU has bribed and connived and corrupted its way into getting little
countries to sign up to satisfy its appetite for neo-colonial
territorial aggrandisement.


That will be why the likes of Turkey has been trying to get in for years?

You are actually worse than Wodney for telling lies.



Turkey trying to get in is another nail in the coffin of the
EU. The next step is even more unwanted immigrants, lower wages and
higher house prices and taxes. Just what a Socialist dreams of? Time to
govern ourselves again I think.


Lower wages and higher house prices. HTF does that work?




Intellectually challenged again I see Jonno! Just look at London.
Low wages for cleaners and house prices out of reach for the average worker.

On 12/03/16 21:11, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Jonno
writes
Roger Mills scribbled


On 12/03/2016 16:12, wrote:


Great - leave the EU and be allowed to eat poisonous cauliflowers.

Why will it make any difference? Seems like they're *already* sending us
poisonous cauliflowers because they're harvesting too soon after
spraying. I don't know what checks (if any) we make on what comes in -
but we may well tighten up on that after we've left.


WTF would a farmer spray expensive chemicals onto a crop he's going to
lift in 48 hours?

Marketability? Maybe he intended to spray earlier but was held up by
weather or mechanical breakdown. Maybe a contractor got the wrong field.

It is standard practice actually to spray herbicicide on the cereal
crops in order to kill the lot off, so its all nice and dried out by the
time you combine it.





--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

In message , Jonno
writes
Tim Lamb scribbled


In message , Jonno
writes
Roger Mills scribbled


On 12/03/2016 16:12, wrote:


Great - leave the EU and be allowed to eat poisonous cauliflowers.

Why will it make any difference? Seems like they're *already* sending us
poisonous cauliflowers because they're harvesting too soon after
spraying. I don't know what checks (if any) we make on what comes in -
but we may well tighten up on that after we've left.


WTF would a farmer spray expensive chemicals onto a crop he's going to
lift in 48 hours?

Marketability? Maybe he intended to spray earlier but was held up by
weather or mechanical breakdown. Maybe a contractor got the wrong field.


Give over. Crops are sprayed well before being lifted. If the bugs are
well established the crop is probably unsellable, spraying wouldn't
achieve anything. I've seen stupid farmers spray too late, they lost
money every which way. I've not done crop spraying for a while, but
they used to stink and anyone market buying would notice it immediately.

Quite! I'm not suggesting it is a good idea but putting up possible
scenarios where someone might have seen it happen. The event as reported
seems a bit apocryphal anyway
--
Tim Lamb

In message , Michael Chare
writes

I think those campaigning to leave should be called the 'It's not true
party' as that appears to be their main argument when anyone points out
the pitfalls of leaving.

Truth is, no-one knows. Pointless to call either side liars, because
both are only stating what they believe. What we, the electorate, have
to do is decide which side is the most believable, or perhaps the least
unbelievable.

This is going to rumble on for years. Whichever side wins, the defeated
side will blame every misfortune on the result, even though such cannot
possibly be foreseen, at least not with any real accuracy.
--
Graeme

"tim..." wrote in message
...

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
Was listening to Any Questions on the car radio today - so didn't hear
all
of it.

One interesting bit was a panel member getting very passionate about how
the EU was ruining UK farming and small businesses, and farmers knew far
more about farming than European bureaucrats. Who were stifling their
businesses with rules and regulations. Ie, the usual sort of thing.

And he was asked to give an example. Just what I always do when I here
such things.

And what was it? He'd seen a Spanish farmer spraying a crop of
cauliflowers with something - presumably an insecticide - and then
lifting
them for sale two days later. When the regs say spraying must finish at
least a week before lifting.

Of course no one picked up on this. The implication being he wanted to
see
any regulations about the use of insecticides removed. And left purely to
the farmer. To put him on equal footing with a Spanish farmer who was
breaking the law.

I was uncertain what point he was making. The whole episode seemed a bit
flimsy: as if he was reporting a commonly held belief.
Miscounting of Olive trees was an oft reported scam but never with any
reliable evidence.

The audience seemed to believe him.

Then, in any answers - heard a bit of it after getting home - one guy was
saying the EU had decimated his market in southern Europe due to the
Euro.
Now just how us coming out of the EU would make a southern europe country
in the Euro suddenly be able to afford UK goods, he didn't explain.

It's very odd that every industry claims to be hog tied by European
legislation - yet when asked, seem to have problems supplying just one
concrete and important one.

Yes. Exactly my view. There is also a perception that our bureaucrats are
better at enforcing legislation than those elsewhere in Europe.

they almost certainly are,

but coming out is not going to change that

But when out, its legislation that Britain chooses
to have, not legislation imposed by the EU.

On 13/03/16 07:50, News wrote:
In message ,
writes

Every time I hear an Outer talking is persudes me to vote In
every time I head an Inner talking they persuade me to vote Out.

+1

I'm still undecided. Initially, I would have voted to stay in, without
much thought, then, after some listening and reading, I veered towards
out. Now, I just don't know, although stay seems favourite.

What is the EU really all about? Go back 60+ years and an integrated
Europe was about prevention of another European war. That was first and
foremost, at least from the British view. Anything else was almost a
bonus.


No, it was never about that.

http://www.jamescarver.org.uk/blog.php?id=11

"Jean Monnet, one of the founding fathers of the EU explained it
clearly, back in the 1950s with these words:

€œEuropes nations should be guided towards the super state without their
peoples knowing what is happening. This can be accomplished by
successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but
which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.€�"

It was always from the first designed to be a communist style
superstate disguised as an economic project. The 'it will stop war' ****
was added in as another justification.


Look at the possibility of a UK exit from the European side. Is it
really about Britain leaving, or about Britain setting a precedent?

They are scared it will set a precedent, especially if Britain does well.

Were
we to leave, would any other countries follow?

Yes. A lot.

Not the recent members,
but any of the longer term 'traditional' European countries who also
feel hard done by? The possibility of the EU becoming Germany and all
the hangers on?

Just suppose Brexit did result in other exits over time and, eventually,
to the downfall of Europe as we have known it since WWII. Just suppose
it did lead to another European war. Could I ever forgive myself if I
had voted out, even if I were six feet under by then?
Don't be silly.

We already have had two European wars since the EU - the Cold war and
the Islamic war.

The EU claims it would prevent a war that today simply wouldn't happen.

Or is more likely to make happen.

Can you honestly see us going to war with Germany or France - unless of
course they invade us to enforce EU rules on us...



--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 13/03/16 08:09, Richard wrote:
"News" wrote in message ...

In message ,
writes

Every time I hear an Outer talking is persudes me to vote In
every time I head an Inner talking they persuade me to vote Out.

+1

I'm still undecided. Initially, I would have voted to stay in,
without much thought, then, after some listening and reading, I veered
towards out. Now, I just don't know, although stay seems favourite.

What is the EU really all about? Go back 60+ years and an integrated
Europe was about prevention of another European war. That was first
and foremost, at least from the British view. Anything else was
almost a bonus.

Look at the possibility of a UK exit from the European side. Is it
really about Britain leaving, or about Britain setting a precedent?
Were we to leave, would any other countries follow? Not the recent
members, but any of the longer term 'traditional' European countries
who also feel hard done by? The possibility of the EU becoming
Germany and all the hangers on?

Just suppose Brexit did result in other exits over time and,
eventually, to the downfall of Europe as we have known it since WWII.
Just suppose it did lead to another European war. Could I ever
forgive myself if I had voted out, even if I were six feet under by then?

Europe has already fallen. The war is happening right now.

+10001


--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

On 13/03/16 10:10, tim... wrote:

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message


Yes. Exactly my view. There is also a perception that our bureaucrats
are better at enforcing legislation than those elsewhere in Europe.

they almost certainly are,

but coming out is not going to change that


No, but it may mean that we get to choose the legislation we enforce.


--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 13/03/16 07:50, News wrote:

What is the EU really all about? Go back 60+ years and an integrated
Europe was about prevention of another European war. That was first and
foremost, at least from the British view. Anything else was almost a
bonus.

No, it was never about that.

I did say from the British view, not necessarily from the others.
Churchill by Boris Johnson is an interesting read.

--
Graeme

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 13/03/16 07:50, News wrote:
In message ,
writes

Every time I hear an Outer talking is persudes me to vote In
every time I head an Inner talking they persuade me to vote Out.

+1

I'm still undecided. Initially, I would have voted to stay in, without
much thought, then, after some listening and reading, I veered towards
out. Now, I just don't know, although stay seems favourite.

What is the EU really all about? Go back 60+ years and an integrated
Europe was about prevention of another European war. That was first and
foremost, at least from the British view. Anything else was almost a
bonus.


No, it was never about that.

http://www.jamescarver.org.uk/blog.php?id=11

"Jean Monnet, one of the founding fathers of the EU explained it clearly,
back in the 1950s with these words:

€œEuropes nations should be guided towards the super state without their
peoples knowing what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive
steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will
eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.€�"

He wasnt the one that determined how things were done.

It was always from the first designed to be a communist style superstate
disguised as an economic project.

Nothing even remotely like any communist style superstate.

None of those ever had a parliament that could toss
out the commission any time they decided to do that.

The 'it will stop war' **** was added in as another justification.

You previously claimed that NATO stopped that.

You can't have it both ways.

Look at the possibility of a UK exit from the European side. Is it
really about Britain leaving, or about Britain setting a precedent?

They are scared it will set a precedent, especially if Britain does well.

Were
we to leave, would any other countries follow?

Yes. A lot.

Not the recent members,
but any of the longer term 'traditional' European countries who also
feel hard done by? The possibility of the EU becoming Germany and all
the hangers on?

Just suppose Brexit did result in other exits over time and, eventually,
to the downfall of Europe as we have known it since WWII. Just suppose
it did lead to another European war. Could I ever forgive myself if I
had voted out, even if I were six feet under by then?
Don't be silly.

We already have had two European wars since the EU - the Cold war

That happened LONG before the EU and the EEC too.

and the Islamic war.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

The EU claims it would prevent a war that today simply wouldn't happen.

Or is more likely to make happen.

Can you honestly see us going to war with Germany or France - unless of
course they invade us to enforce EU rules on us...

They dont have the military capability to do that.

On 13/03/16 10:22, News wrote:
In message , Michael Chare
writes

I think those campaigning to leave should be called the 'It's not true
party' as that appears to be their main argument when anyone points
out the pitfalls of leaving.

Truth is, no-one knows. Pointless to call either side liars, because
both are only stating what they believe. What we, the electorate, have
to do is decide which side is the most believable, or perhaps the least
unbelievable.

This is going to rumble on for years. Whichever side wins, the defeated
side will blame every misfortune on the result, even though such cannot
possibly be foreseen, at least not with any real accuracy.

I think that is in fact the case. I mean look at the Plowperson and
Thatcher, lets face it, he's still masoning about the Norman Invasion
(privileged landed gentry) and that was 1000 years ago.

But I suspect that we will just leave, and the EU will fall apart
subsequently, because if not Europe will become like the USSR was. A
stinking corrupt pile of puppet nations full of dachas and Zil lanes run
by a centralised authority elsewhere.

--
Bureaucracy defends the status quo long past the time the quo has lost
its status.

Laurence Peter

On 13/03/16 10:35, News wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 13/03/16 07:50, News wrote:

What is the EU really all about? Go back 60+ years and an integrated
Europe was about prevention of another European war. That was first and
foremost, at least from the British view. Anything else was almost a
bonus.

No, it was never about that.

I did say from the British view, not necessarily from the others.
Churchill by Boris Johnson is an interesting read.

No, it wasn't about that even from the British view.

It was an economic community we were told we were joining, to ease red
tape and free up trade..

Ha ****ing hah!


--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 12/03/16 21:11, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Jonno
writes
Roger Mills scribbled


On 12/03/2016 16:12, wrote:


Great - leave the EU and be allowed to eat poisonous cauliflowers.

Why will it make any difference? Seems like they're *already* sending us
poisonous cauliflowers because they're harvesting too soon after
spraying. I don't know what checks (if any) we make on what comes in -
but we may well tighten up on that after we've left.


WTF would a farmer spray expensive chemicals onto a crop he's going to
lift in 48 hours?

Marketability? Maybe he intended to spray earlier but was held up by
weather or mechanical breakdown. Maybe a contractor got the wrong field.

It is standard practice actually to spray herbicicide on the cereal
crops in order to kill the lot off, so its all nice and dried out by
the time you combine it.

I'm not up to date on this but applied farm chemicals are a significant
part of the growing cost and not used without careful consideration.

I suppose you might use pre-harvest glyphosate on a cereal crop with a
high weed burden or where a clean seedbed is required for a following
crop of OSR






--
Tim Lamb

"Sam Crean" wrote in message ...


**** off rod.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
The EU claims it would prevent a war that today simply wouldn't happen.

Or is more likely to make happen.

Can you honestly see us going to war with Germany or France - unless of
course they invade us to enforce EU rules on us...

No. But I can see them provoking Russia by waving Nato membership along
the borders.

--
Tim Lamb

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 13/03/16 10:10, tim... wrote:

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message


Yes. Exactly my view. There is also a perception that our bureaucrats
are better at enforcing legislation than those elsewhere in Europe.

they almost certainly are,

but coming out is not going to change that


No, but it may mean that we get to choose the legislation we enforce.

as the Spanish et al have shown, we can choose not to enforce it now

but we don't do that sort of thing in this country

tim

"tim..." wrote in message ...


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 13/03/16 10:10, tim... wrote:

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message


Yes. Exactly my view. There is also a perception that our bureaucrats
are better at enforcing legislation than those elsewhere in Europe.

they almost certainly are,

but coming out is not going to change that


No, but it may mean that we get to choose the legislation we enforce.

as the Spanish et al have shown, we can choose not to enforce it now

but we don't do that sort of thing in this country

tim

That's the trouble, we tend to play by the rules.

On 13/03/16 10:57, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 12/03/16 21:11, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , Jonno
writes
Roger Mills scribbled


On 12/03/2016 16:12, wrote:


Great - leave the EU and be allowed to eat poisonous cauliflowers.

Why will it make any difference? Seems like they're *already*
sending us
poisonous cauliflowers because they're harvesting too soon after
spraying. I don't know what checks (if any) we make on what comes in -
but we may well tighten up on that after we've left.


WTF would a farmer spray expensive chemicals onto a crop he's going to
lift in 48 hours?

Marketability? Maybe he intended to spray earlier but was held up by
weather or mechanical breakdown. Maybe a contractor got the wrong field.

It is standard practice actually to spray herbicicide on the cereal
crops in order to kill the lot off, so its all nice and dried out by
the time you combine it.

I'm not up to date on this but applied farm chemicals are a significant
part of the growing cost and not used without careful consideration.

I suppose you might use pre-harvest glyphosate on a cereal crop with a
high weed burden or where a clean seedbed is required for a following
crop of OSR

No. its standard on rape. My bad, I said cereal, but in fact its rape
they spray off.









--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
It's very odd that every industry claims to be hog tied by European
legislation - yet when asked, seem to have problems supplying just one
concrete and important one.

The working hours mandate you wave around is one obvious example.

It's one of the very obvious better bits of EU legislation, yes.

But not to those like you who don't know what hard work actually is.

--
*Money isn't everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

No. If UK farmers continue to observe the law while 'EU' ones apparently
don't, how is us leaving the EU going to improve that?

Because, as you all didn't notice due to being in auto-pilot rant-mode,
we put in our own inspectors as a condition of allowing e.g. Spanish
cauliflowers into the country. For one country to have its own
inspectors on the soil of another is not unheard of, either.

Right. Have you costed out all these new inspectors needed? To be paid for
by reducing benefits to the disabled even further, I suppose?

Not that I GAS about spanish cauliflowers as I don't eat the stuff.

--
*Honk if you love peace and quiet.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
michael adams wrote:
The exact reason we should leave and do exactly what we want.

The UK has never been able to do exactly what she wants.

Of course not. And if do leave the EU, will still need to meet all the
standards they impose for imports, etc.

--
*If I agreed with you, we'd both be wrong.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
I'd have thought he'd have a big selection on the tip of his tongue if
they are so much of a problem. Anyone could have guessed they'd have
been asked. I've done it on here and not had any decent answers.

Another bare faced lie.

Please quote some of those decent answers then. Since you obviously
remember them.

--
*I was married by a judge. I should have asked for a jury.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
We are *forced* to import such things?

Yes. While ever Britain is in the EU, it can't ban imports
from other EU countrys that don’t bother to enforce the
legislation on the time between spraying and harvest.

Right. So everyone in the UK is *forced* to buy EU cauliflowers. And every
supermarket is *forced* to import them.

You must live in a very odd planet.

--
*Forget about World Peace...Visualize using your turn signal.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Was listening to Any Questions on the car radio today - so didn't hear all
of it.

Every time I hear an Outer talking is persudes me to vote In, but then
every time I head an Inner talking they persuade me to vote Out. Plaque
on both their houses.

Lot of sense, that. Politicians of all sides seem to have sunk to a new
low. Which I didn't think possible.

I blame it on all the advertising we're surrounded with. Far more than
once was the case. Most of which seems to be allowed to tell lies or half
truths. So people are getting brain washed into doing the same.

--
*How's my driving? Call 999*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
Its called supply and demand, the sort of things socialists are in
denial of.

More immigrants = too many people chasing too few jobs = lower wages.

Exactly what the average right winger wants? The rich get richer while the
poor poorer?

More immigrants = increased demand on housing = higher house prices.

Exactly what the average right winger wants?

Is that any help?

So if you want higher wages and more affordable housing, that must make
you a socialist?

--
*WHY IS THERE AN EXPIRATION DATE ON SOUR CREAM?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:

Its called supply and demand, the sort of things socialists are in
denial of.


More immigrants = too many people chasing too few jobs = lower wages.

Exactly what the average right winger wants? The rich get richer while the
poor poorer?


More immigrants = increased demand on housing = higher house prices.

Exactly what the average right winger wants?


Is that any help?

So if you want higher wages and more affordable housing, that must make
you a socialist?


No, it makes you realise that your future lies outside the EU.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , News
wrote:

Just suppose Brexit did result in other exits over time and, eventually,
to the downfall of Europe as we have known it since WWII. Just suppose
it did lead to another European war. Could I ever forgive myself if I
had voted out, even if I were six feet under by then?

It will end in tears whether we leave or not.

I'm inclined to believe that.

Quite what form those
tears will take I know not. Who would have predicted the immigrant and
Euro messes anyway.

Anyone with half a brain cell. If you bomb the **** out of a country, many
will leave. And with travel being easier now than it ever was, it's
obvious they will head to the closest place of safety where they think
they can have a better life. Influenced by what they've seen via the web
etc. Every man and his dog in the poorest country now has some idea of
life in other countries.

Why will it end in tears? Because people will get more and more fed up
with the bullying and hectoring that is the hallmark of the EU
approach, that's why.

So what is needed is the UK to take over all the bullying and hectoring
itself. Only more so.

--
*I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
News wrote:
This is going to rumble on for years. Whichever side wins, the defeated
side will blame every misfortune on the result, even though such cannot
possibly be foreseen, at least not with any real accuracy.

Quite. Which is an argument for the status quo.
Lets face it, our politicians etc are very poor at predicting the future
of things which are totally under their control. But expect us to believe
them on what will happen if we leave Europe.

--
*Many people quit looking for work when they find a job *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
But when out, its legislation that Britain chooses
to have, not legislation imposed by the EU.

Britain doesn't choose its legislation. That is imposed by the government
in power. Only recent thing Britain did get a choice on was Scottish
independence.

--
*I was once a millionaire but my mom gave away my baseball cards

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.