Another nail in the coffin for HPC.

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...nkley-point-c-
nuclear-project-in-crisis-as-edf-finance-director-resigns

or http://tinyurl.com/zkg69rd

Euan Mearns' blog also has some interesting analysis of Scottish power
generation. Much of it is exported to England. The interconnect
appears to be able to carry a maximum of 3.5GW.

If the Scottish grid shuts down (say due to a nuclear station suddenly
going offline, causing thr erest of the grip to trip), a "black start"
using power imported from England to get it back up and running will
take 24 plus hours (!)

The takeaway seems to be that when Longannet closes at the end of the
month. the Scots had better get out their paraffin stoves and candles
and pray the wind blows.

http://euanmearns.com/scotland-engla...ity-transfers/

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

How did we get into this sort of mess. Simple, no overview after we sold the
power networks off. Now everybody does their own thing and sod the others.
I said at the time this is messing with dynamite, but nobody listened.
So which generator is the easiest to use for a blind person? (I hope this
is a joke, but probably not)

The thing is that if several companies or the state built a few nuclear
stations, then problem solved for 40 years or so, but all this hand wringing
and messing about has wasted valuable time.

Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...

Another nail in the coffin for HPC.

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...nkley-point-c-
nuclear-project-in-crisis-as-edf-finance-director-resigns

or http://tinyurl.com/zkg69rd

Euan Mearns' blog also has some interesting analysis of Scottish power
generation. Much of it is exported to England. The interconnect
appears to be able to carry a maximum of 3.5GW.

If the Scottish grid shuts down (say due to a nuclear station suddenly
going offline, causing thr erest of the grip to trip), a "black start"
using power imported from England to get it back up and running will
take 24 plus hours (!)

The takeaway seems to be that when Longannet closes at the end of the
month. the Scots had better get out their paraffin stoves and candles
and pray the wind blows.

http://euanmearns.com/scotland-engla...ity-transfers/

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...

Another nail in the coffin for HPC.

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...nkley-point-c-
nuclear-project-in-crisis-as-edf-finance-director-resigns

or http://tinyurl.com/zkg69rd

Euan Mearns' blog also has some interesting analysis of Scottish power
generation. Much of it is exported to England. The interconnect
appears to be able to carry a maximum of 3.5GW.

If the Scottish grid shuts down (say due to a nuclear station suddenly
going offline, causing thr erest of the grip to trip), a "black start"
using power imported from England to get it back up and running will
take 24 plus hours (!)

The takeaway seems to be that when Longannet closes at the end of the
month. the Scots had better get out their paraffin stoves and candles
and pray the wind blows.

Fools like you ran the same line about the winter just ended.

Didn’t happen.

http://euanmearns.com/scotland-engla...ity-transfers/

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

On 07/03/16 09:15, Brian Gaff wrote:
How did we get into this sort of mess?

All it takes is voter ignorance.

The late Professor Cohen wrote in his book perhaps the clearest
explanation of how governments waste money, because voters are ignorant
and people who don't care take advantage.

This is on dealing with low level nuclear waste.
( http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/chapter12.html )

"I have met the government officials who chose the billion-dollar plan,
and have discussed these questions with them. They are intelligent
people trying to do their jobs well. But they don't view saving lives as
the relevant question. In their view, their jobs are to respond to
public concern and political pressures. A few irrational zealots in the
Buffalo area stirred up the public there with the cry "We want that
dangerous waste out of our area." Why should any local people oppose
them? Their congressional representatives took that message to
Washington €” what would they have to gain by doing otherwise? The DOE
officials responded to that pressure by asking for the billion-dollar
program. It wasn't hurting them; in fact, having a new billion-dollar
program to administer is a feather in their caps. Congress was told that
a billion dollars was needed to discharge the government's
responsibility in protecting the public from this dangerous waste €” how
could it fail to respond? "

Once you realise that what allows bad politics, is public ignorance,
public education remains the most powerful weapon against it.

Hence Gridwatch ;-)


--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On 07/03/16 09:15, Brian Gaff wrote:
How did we get into this sort of mess. Simple, no overview after we sold the
power networks off. Now everybody does their own thing and sod the others.
I said at the time this is messing with dynamite, but nobody listened.
So which generator is the easiest to use for a blind person? (I hope this
is a joke, but probably not)

The thing is that if several companies or the state built a few nuclear
stations, then problem solved for 40 years or so, but all this hand wringing
and messing about has wasted valuable time.

Indeed.

And if voter ignorance is the cause, we're screwed - because I know
people who openly don't care - or do care, but are insufficiently informed.

The media are partly to blame because even The Times is full of
journalistic errors (on reports concerning subject matter I know about)
- and the rest of the papers are generally tat.

In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
How did we get into this sort of mess. Simple, no overview after we sold
the power networks off. Now everybody does their own thing and sod the
others.

You can't say that on here, Brian. Everyone knows that private enterprise
and market forces are the only thing that works.

Every single electricity supply company is only interested in making sure
its customers are properly looked after through careful forward planning
and excellent service. Only after that are profits even thought about.

Surely this must be obvious? After all, our existing nuclear power
stations that everyone on here raves about were all built by private
enterprise.

--
*Why is the third hand on the watch called a second hand?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:

The media are partly to blame because even The Times is full of
journalistic errors (on reports concerning subject matter I know about)
- and the rest of the papers are generally tat.

Yet so many seem to believe the 'facts' they give about the EU.

--
*WHY ARE HEMORRHOIDS CALLED "HEMORRHOIDS" INSTEAD OF "ASTEROIDS"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
How did we get into this sort of mess. Simple, no overview after we sold
the power networks off. Now everybody does their own thing and sod the
others.

You can't say that on here, Brian. Everyone knows that private enterprise
and market forces are the only thing that works.

Every single electricity supply company is only interested in making sure
its customers are properly looked after through careful forward planning
and excellent service. Only after that are profits even thought about.

Surely this must be obvious? After all, our existing nuclear power
stations that everyone on here raves about were all built by private
enterprise.

really?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 07/03/16 12:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:

The media are partly to blame because even The Times is full of
journalistic errors (on reports concerning subject matter I know about)
- and the rest of the papers are generally tat.

Yet so many seem to believe the 'facts' they give about the EU.


I don;t like the EU, but that's because I see it as unaccountable (more
so than Westminster).

There are some good directives - Working Time and various other labour
laws would never have been initiated by the UK.

But there's plenty of stuff I don't like - inability to unilaterally
determine taxation (VAT notably) for one.

On 07/03/16 13:35, charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
How did we get into this sort of mess. Simple, no overview after we sold
the power networks off. Now everybody does their own thing and sod the
others.

You can't say that on here, Brian. Everyone knows that private enterprise
and market forces are the only thing that works.

Every single electricity supply company is only interested in making sure
its customers are properly looked after through careful forward planning
and excellent service. Only after that are profits even thought about.

Surely this must be obvious? After all, our existing nuclear power
stations that everyone on here raves about were all built by private
enterprise.

really?

Of course the ONLY reason that we don't have private enterprise building
power stations is that governments have totally interfered in the whole
energy market.

"Gas is cheaper than coal!"
"No it isnt!"
"OK we will put a massive tax on coal so it is!"
"Nuclear is cheaper than coal and gas"
"WE can't have that. Let's add about 10 years of box ticking and public
inquiry to every power station and make it much more expensive"
"Now no one wants to invest in any power because government keeps moving
the goalposts"
"Right then we can offer fixed term contracts"
"But that's a totally artificial market: the government, political
bigotry and not the reality is dictating what type of power staion we have"
"Of course, its like nationalising it, except we don't have to pay for
it, so it's socialism by legislation, rather than by taking any
responsibility, That was the Genius of Blair. Pass a law that makes it
someone else's fault when you cock it up! If we get marvellous cheap
power, Blair and Labour take the credit, if it ****s up, we blame
private enterprise and the market!"
"If there is anything worse than a stupid lefty****, it's a clever
lefty****".





--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On 07/03/16 13:41, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/03/16 12:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:

The media are partly to blame because even The Times is full of
journalistic errors (on reports concerning subject matter I know about)
- and the rest of the papers are generally tat.

Yet so many seem to believe the 'facts' they give about the EU.


I don;t like the EU, but that's because I see it as unaccountable (more
so than Westminster).

There are some good directives - Working Time and various other labour
laws would never have been initiated by the UK.


They would have, and its arguable that all they have done is drive
people to become subcontractors, not employees. Or reloafte their jobs
somewhere else outside the EU..

But there's plenty of stuff I don't like - inability to unilaterally
determine taxation (VAT notably) for one.

Frankly apart from Schengen - which isnt EU anyway,. there is nothing
about the EU I like.

Every single project that spans national borders and works, is NOT EU
inspired.


--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
But there's plenty of stuff I don't like - inability to unilaterally
determine taxation (VAT notably) for one.

Are you saying VAT is the same rate and always on the same things
throughout the EU?

--
*How come you never hear about gruntled employees? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Of course the ONLY reason that we don't have private enterprise building
power stations is that governments have totally interfered in the whole
energy market.

It was once totally under their control. Ie, nationalised. It was then
privatized.

Pray tell how there is a better way of having something totally under your
control than owning it?

After all, that's when our existing nuclear was built.

--
*Organized Crime Is Alive And Well; It's Called Auto Insurance.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 07/03/16 16:45, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
But there's plenty of stuff I don't like - inability to unilaterally
determine taxation (VAT notably) for one.

Are you saying VAT is the same rate and always on the same things
throughout the EU?


No - but apparently we cannot VAT exempt a class of items as we wish (eg
like books, children's clothes other "essential" items used to be zero
VAT rated).

And it seems Cameron has to negotiate if he wants to modify benefit
rules. That's two things straight away.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 07/03/16 13:41, Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/03/16 12:14, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:

The media are partly to blame because even The Times is full of
journalistic errors (on reports concerning subject matter I know about)
- and the rest of the papers are generally tat.

Yet so many seem to believe the 'facts' they give about the EU.


I don;t like the EU, but that's because I see it as unaccountable (more
so than Westminster).

There are some good directives - Working Time and various other labour
laws would never have been initiated by the UK.


They would have, and its arguable that all they have done is drive people
to become subcontractors, not employees. Or reloafte their jobs somewhere
else outside the EU..

But there's plenty of stuff I don't like - inability to unilaterally
determine taxation (VAT notably) for one.

Frankly apart from Schengen - which isnt EU anyway,. there is nothing
about the EU I like.

What's not to like about no more wars in almost every
generation in between western european countries ?

Every single project that spans national borders and works, is NOT EU
inspired.

But some of the tax stuff like standardised VAT rates that works is.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:

No - but apparently we cannot VAT exempt a class of items as we wish (eg
like books, children's clothes other "essential" items used to be zero
VAT rated).

As a matter of interest, why should books be zero rated? They are hardly
an essential item. And why children's clothes? Are all parents necessarily
poorer than adults who buy clothes?

IIRC, the UK government can set the individual VAT rate anyway.

--
*Why 'that tie suits you' but 'those shoes suit you'?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 07/03/16 17:24, Waimer wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Frankly apart from Schengen - which isnt EU anyway,. there is nothing
about the EU I like.

What's not to like about no more wars in almost every
generation in between western european countries ?


This is like Climate Change, isn't it? Anything good that happens, it's
the EU, anything bad that happens, its climate change, the Koch brothers
or Margaret Thatcher.

Oddly enough there hasn't been a world war outside of the EU either.


Every single project that spans national borders and works, is NOT EU
inspired.

But some of the tax stuff like standardised VAT rates that works is.

But that doesn't work,. which proves my point...


--
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

Adolf Hitler

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Waimer
wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Frankly apart from Schengen - which isnt EU anyway,. there is nothing
about the EU I like.

What's not to like about no more wars in almost every
generation between western european countries ?

This has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with NATO.

In fact it was a progression, initially NATO, then the EEC, then the EU etc.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:

No - but apparently we cannot VAT exempt a class of items as we wish (eg
like books, children's clothes other "essential" items used to be zero
VAT rated).

As a matter of interest, why should books be zero rated? They are hardly
an essential item. And why children's clothes? Are all parents
necessarily poorer than adults who buy clothes?

IIRC, the UK government can set the individual VAT rate anyway.

The minimum EU rate for most things is 15% - yet it's 20% in the UK. Which
of course must be the fault of the EU. There are individual items which
can be rated lower. Can't be bothered to look them up.

VAT is a very convenient tax for a Tory government as it allows them to
have lower income tax rates. Thus moving the tax burden to the lower paid.

--
*What boots up must come down *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Tim Watts wrote

No - but apparently we cannot VAT exempt a class of items as we wish (eg
like books, children's clothes other "essential" items used to be zero
VAT rated).

As a matter of interest, why should books be zero rated?

Its one thing that leftys usually do want to be zero rated. We went
that way too, essentially because our most extremely lefty oriented
minor party that happened to have the balance of power in the Senate
demanded that as a quid pro quo to pass our equivalent of your VAT.

They are hardly an essential item.

It isnt just essential items that are zero rated.

And why children's clothes?

Again, typical lefty stuff.

Are all parents necessarily poorer than adults who buy clothes?

Those with kids are usually poorer than those who don’t have
kids, particularly when they are on benefits, because of the cost
of the kids.

IIRC, the UK government can set the individual VAT rate anyway.

Not anymore now that the EU is attempting to see uniform
VAT rates EU wide so that particular countrys can't play silly
buggers and have operations like Amazon base in their
country to take advantage of the lower VAT rate there etc.

The main area they haven't yet been able to do that with
is the excise dutys etc on stuff like grog and cigarettes etc
and that does see what is essentially very counter productive
stuff in the EU with people coming back from places like
France with their cars stuffed with grog and fags etc. It
really doesn’t make much economic sense to have that stuff.

On 07/03/16 18:54, Waimer wrote:


"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Waimer
wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Frankly apart from Schengen - which isnt EU anyway,. there is
nothing about the EU I like.

What's not to like about no more wars in almost every
generation between western european countries ?

This has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with NATO.

In fact it was a progression, initially NATO, then the EEC, then the EU
etc.

NO, it wasn't.

NATO still exists and has nothing whatever to do with The EEC or the EU.

The level of ignorance found in Europhiles is staggering...

--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 07/03/16 17:24, Waimer wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...


Frankly apart from Schengen - which isnt EU anyway,. there is nothing
about the EU I like.

What's not to like about no more wars in almost every
generation in between western european countries ?


This is like Climate Change, isn't it?

No.

Anything good that happens, it's the EU,

No, that is something that came with the change in mentality
that produced the EU as well.

There is plenty of other stuff not to like about the EU,
most obviously with most policy change coming from
unelected bureaucrats with the european parliament
not even being able to initiate legislation.

anything bad that happens, its climate change, the Koch brothers
or Margaret Thatcher.

Oddly enough there hasn't been a world war outside of the EU either.

Because all world wars have started in europe and the
countries that started all the world wars are in the EU now.


Every single project that spans national borders and works, is NOT EU
inspired.

But some of the tax stuff like standardised VAT rates that works is.

But that doesn't work,.

Of course it does.

which proves my point...

No it does not.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Tim Watts wrote

No - but apparently we cannot VAT exempt a class of items as we wish (eg
like books, children's clothes other "essential" items used to be zero
VAT rated).

As a matter of interest, why should books be zero rated? They
are hardly an essential item. And why children's clothes? Are
all parents necessarily poorer than adults who buy clothes?

IIRC, the UK government can set the individual VAT rate anyway.

The minimum EU rate for most things is 15% - yet it's 20% in the UK.
Which of course must be the fault of the EU. There are individual
items which can be rated lower. Can't be bothered to look them up.

VAT is a very convenient tax for a Tory government

And for almost every other modern first and second world govt except the US
too.

as it allows them to have lower income tax rates.

And in almost every other modern first and second world country too.

Thus moving the tax burden to the lower paid.

Fantasy. Those spend a lot less on stuff the
VAT is charged on than the higher paid.

And why shouldn’t the lower paid be paying some
of the tax burden since they use the govt services
a lot more than the higher paid do anyway ?

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 07/03/16 18:54, Waimer wrote:


"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Waimer
wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Frankly apart from Schengen - which isnt EU anyway,. there is
nothing about the EU I like.

What's not to like about no more wars in almost every
generation between western european countries ?

This has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with NATO.

In fact it was a progression, initially NATO, then the EEC, then the EU
etc.

NO, it wasn't.

Yes it was.

NATO still exists and has nothing whatever to do with The EEC or the EU.

Because it always included the US. But it was the mentality
that produced NATO that went on to do the EEC and the EU
and what ensured that there would be no more wars between
western european countries that had previously had them in
almost every generation for centuries before that.

The level of ignorance found in Europhiles is staggering...

I'm not a europhile. I was just pointing out that there
are some things to like about the EU. It's silly to claim
that there is nothing to like about the EU. The real world
is never that black and white.

On 07/03/16 19:42, Waimer wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 07/03/16 18:54, Waimer wrote:


"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Waimer
wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Frankly apart from Schengen - which isnt EU anyway,. there is
nothing about the EU I like.

What's not to like about no more wars in almost every
generation between western european countries ?

This has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with NATO.

In fact it was a progression, initially NATO, then the EEC, then the EU
etc.

NO, it wasn't.

Yes it was.

NATO still exists and has nothing whatever to do with The EEC or the EU.

Because it always included the US. But it was the mentality
that produced NATO that went on to do the EEC and the EU
and what ensured that there would be no more wars between
western european countries that had previously had them in
almost every generation for centuries before that.



What unadulterated wombat turds

The level of ignorance found in Europhiles is staggering...

I'm not a europhile. I was just pointing out that there
are some things to like about the EU. It's silly to claim
that there is nothing to like about the EU. The real world
is never that black and white.

These days you really have to scrape the barrel to find anything to like
about the EU, unless you are a paid EU bureau****.


--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 07/03/16 18:39, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:

No - but apparently we cannot VAT exempt a class of items as we wish (eg
like books, children's clothes other "essential" items used to be zero
VAT rated).

As a matter of interest, why should books be zero rated?

Because it was viewed as an education item and therefore essential (in a
wider sense).

They are hardly
an essential item. And why children's clothes?

Are all parents necessarily
poorer than adults who buy clothes?

If an adult goes without that's up to them, but the idea was that
children should not - or at least not due to taxation pushing the price up.

Remember that it started out as a luxury purchase tax - an ethos I agree
with, although defining "luxury" vs "essential" is hard as you just
pointed out.

Certainly, IMO, things like food, water, electricity, gas and
educational items should be zero rated.

IIRC, the UK government can set the individual VAT rate anyway.

On 07/03/2016 10:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/03/16 09:15, Brian Gaff wrote:
How did we get into this sort of mess?

All it takes is voter ignorance.

The late Professor Cohen wrote in his book perhaps the clearest
explanation of how governments waste money, because voters are ignorant
and people who don't care take advantage.

This is on dealing with low level nuclear waste.
( http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/chapter12.html )

"I have met the government officials who chose the billion-dollar plan,
and have discussed these questions with them. They are intelligent
people trying to do their jobs well. But they don't view saving lives as
the relevant question. In their view, their jobs are to respond to
public concern and political pressures. A few irrational zealots in the
Buffalo area stirred up the public there with the cry "We want that
dangerous waste out of our area." Why should any local people oppose
them? Their congressional representatives took that message to
Washington €” what would they have to gain by doing otherwise? The DOE
officials responded to that pressure by asking for the billion-dollar
program. It wasn't hurting them; in fact, having a new billion-dollar
program to administer is a feather in their caps. Congress was told that
a billion dollars was needed to discharge the government's
responsibility in protecting the public from this dangerous waste €” how
could it fail to respond? "

Once you realise that what allows bad politics, is public ignorance,
public education remains the most powerful weapon against it.

Hence Gridwatch ;-)


A very sensible comment. I long to be socialist, where a sensible
government plans and builds great national infrastructure for the
benefit of us all. But bitter experience tells me our governments just
**** money away on self interest, corruption and stupidity. Even local
government is infested with the dregs of humanity.

Related to this a couple of things really perplex me firstly why new
nuclear power stations are so expensive given that the French managed to
build them economically 30 years ago.

Secondly why trains are so expensive and still have human drivers given
that they are already experimenting with computer driven cars.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 07/03/16 19:42, Waimer wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 07/03/16 18:54, Waimer wrote:


"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Waimer
wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Frankly apart from Schengen - which isnt EU anyway,. there is
nothing about the EU I like.

What's not to like about no more wars in almost every
generation between western european countries ?

This has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with NATO.

In fact it was a progression, initially NATO, then the EEC, then the EU
etc.

NO, it wasn't.

Yes it was.

NATO still exists and has nothing whatever to do with The EEC or the EU.

Because it always included the US. But it was the mentality
that produced NATO that went on to do the EEC and the EU
and what ensured that there would be no more wars between
western european countries that had previously had them in
almost every generation for centuries before that.



What unadulterated wombat turds

The level of ignorance found in Europhiles is staggering...

I'm not a europhile. I was just pointing out that there
are some things to like about the EU. It's silly to claim
that there is nothing to like about the EU. The real world
is never that black and white.

These days you really have to scrape the barrel to find anything to like
about the EU, unless you are a paid EU bureau****.

Bull**** on the complete freedom of movement to go
anywhere you like in the EU and do that for as long as
you choose to and work anywhere you like without any
bureaucrat getting any say at all on where you do that.

Sure, that has some real downsides when the dregs of
the EU get to do that too, but there are real downsides
with anything. Just like there are with the EU itself or
smaller groupings like Britain too. That also allows the
dregs like lefty**** Dave to do that in Britain too.

"Nick" wrote in message
...
On 07/03/2016 10:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/03/16 09:15, Brian Gaff wrote:
How did we get into this sort of mess?

All it takes is voter ignorance.

The late Professor Cohen wrote in his book perhaps the clearest
explanation of how governments waste money, because voters are ignorant
and people who don't care take advantage.

This is on dealing with low level nuclear waste.
( http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/chapter12.html )

"I have met the government officials who chose the billion-dollar plan,
and have discussed these questions with them. They are intelligent
people trying to do their jobs well. But they don't view saving lives as
the relevant question. In their view, their jobs are to respond to
public concern and political pressures. A few irrational zealots in the
Buffalo area stirred up the public there with the cry "We want that
dangerous waste out of our area." Why should any local people oppose
them? Their congressional representatives took that message to
Washington €” what would they have to gain by doing otherwise? The DOE
officials responded to that pressure by asking for the billion-dollar
program. It wasn't hurting them; in fact, having a new billion-dollar
program to administer is a feather in their caps. Congress was told that
a billion dollars was needed to discharge the government's
responsibility in protecting the public from this dangerous waste €” how
could it fail to respond? "

Once you realise that what allows bad politics, is public ignorance,
public education remains the most powerful weapon against it.

Hence Gridwatch ;-)


A very sensible comment. I long to be socialist, where a sensible
government plans and builds great national infrastructure for the benefit
of us all. But bitter experience tells me our governments just **** money
away on self interest, corruption and stupidity.

It's hard to claim that about the NHS, or free tertiary education.

Even local government is infested with the dregs of humanity.

Related to this a couple of things really perplex me firstly why new
nuclear power stations are so expensive given that the French managed to
build them economically 30 years ago.

It's basically because of the obsession with them not going
bang post 3 mile island, Chernobyl and fukushima etc.

Secondly why trains are so expensive

Because there is a lot more to them than say buses.

and still have human drivers given that they are already experimenting
with computer driven cars.

Because the unions get any say on that and there is no one
with any balls like Maggie or Murdoch had to take them on.

On 07/03/16 20:00, Nick wrote:
On 07/03/2016 10:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/03/16 09:15, Brian Gaff wrote:
How did we get into this sort of mess?

All it takes is voter ignorance.

The late Professor Cohen wrote in his book perhaps the clearest
explanation of how governments waste money, because voters are ignorant
and people who don't care take advantage.

This is on dealing with low level nuclear waste.
( http://www.phyast.pitt.edu/~blc/book/chapter12.html )

"I have met the government officials who chose the billion-dollar plan,
and have discussed these questions with them. They are intelligent
people trying to do their jobs well. But they don't view saving lives as
the relevant question. In their view, their jobs are to respond to
public concern and political pressures. A few irrational zealots in the
Buffalo area stirred up the public there with the cry "We want that
dangerous waste out of our area." Why should any local people oppose
them? Their congressional representatives took that message to
Washington €” what would they have to gain by doing otherwise? The DOE
officials responded to that pressure by asking for the billion-dollar
program. It wasn't hurting them; in fact, having a new billion-dollar
program to administer is a feather in their caps. Congress was told that
a billion dollars was needed to discharge the government's
responsibility in protecting the public from this dangerous waste €” how
could it fail to respond? "

Once you realise that what allows bad politics, is public ignorance,
public education remains the most powerful weapon against it.

Hence Gridwatch ;-)


A very sensible comment. I long to be socialist, where a sensible
government plans and builds great national infrastructure for the
benefit of us all. But bitter experience tells me our governments just
**** money away on self interest, corruption and stupidity. Even local
government is infested with the dregs of humanity.

Related to this a couple of things really perplex me firstly why new
nuclear power stations are so expensive given that the French managed to
build them economically 30 years ago.

read the rest of Prof Cohens book.

Secondly why trains are so expensive and still have human drivers given
that they are already experimenting with computer driven cars.

Unions...

--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Oddly enough there hasn't been a world war outside of the EU either.

Do you understand what the world is? ;-)

--
*Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/03/16 18:39, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:

No - but apparently we cannot VAT exempt a class of items as we wish
(eg like books, children's clothes other "essential" items used to be
zero VAT rated).

As a matter of interest, why should books be zero rated?

Because it was viewed as an education item and therefore essential (in a
wider sense).

So is a TV then.

They are hardly
an essential item. And why children's clothes?

Are all parents necessarily
poorer than adults who buy clothes?

If an adult goes without that's up to them, but the idea was that
children should not - or at least not due to taxation pushing the price
up.

Children buy their own clothes from their own income?

Remember that it started out as a luxury purchase tax - an ethos I agree
with, although defining "luxury" vs "essential" is hard as you just
pointed out.

VAT is not the same sort of tax as purchase tax. In that it's levied on
services too.

Certainly, IMO, things like food, water, electricity, gas and
educational items should be zero rated.

If you reduce the tax on one thing it will have to be raised in another
way. Something most here don't seem to grasp.

And I'm really surprised all the right wingers here don't seem to like it,
as it is proportionally unfair to the poor, and benefits the rich.

--
*Time is fun when you're having flies... Kermit

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Waimer wrote:
and still have human drivers given that they are already experimenting
with computer driven cars.

Because the unions get any say on that and there is no one
with any balls like Maggie or Murdoch had to take them on.

Every time driverless trains or tubes are brought up, the vast majority of
those who use them are against.

--
*Be more or less specific *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Waimer
wrote:

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Waimer
wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Frankly apart from Schengen - which isnt EU anyway,. there is
nothing about the EU I like.

What's not to like about no more wars in almost every generation
between western european countries ?

This has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with NATO.

In fact it was a progression, initially NATO, then the EEC, then the EU
etc.

Stop talking cock.

Today is not my day to be nice to ignorant ****s.

You do realise it's Wodney again? I'm waiting for him to argue with
himself once more.

--
*If a pig loses its voice, is it disgruntled?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On 07/03/16 18:39, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:

No - but apparently we cannot VAT exempt a class of items as we wish
(eg like books, children's clothes other "essential" items used to be
zero VAT rated).

As a matter of interest, why should books be zero rated?

Because it was viewed as an education item and therefore essential (in a
wider sense).

So is a TV then.

Yes, there will always be problems like that
with different VAT rates on different things.

They are hardly
an essential item. And why children's clothes?

Are all parents necessarily
poorer than adults who buy clothes?

If an adult goes without that's up to them, but the idea was that
children should not - or at least not due to taxation pushing the price
up.

Children buy their own clothes from their own income?

Remember that it started out as a luxury purchase tax - an ethos I agree
with, although defining "luxury" vs "essential" is hard as you just
pointed out.

VAT is not the same sort of tax as purchase tax. In that it's levied on
services too.

And some services are VAT exempt for a reason.

Certainly, IMO, things like food, water, electricity, gas and
educational items should be zero rated.

If you reduce the tax on one thing it will have to be raised in another
way.

Just as true of no VAT.

Something most here don't seem to grasp.

More of your bare faced lies.

And I'm really surprised all the right wingers here don't
seem to like it, as it is proportionally unfair to the poor,

Bull**** it is when they make the most use of the
government services that are paid for by taxation.

and benefits the rich.

Even sillier than you usually manage.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Waimer wrote:
and still have human drivers given that they are already experimenting
with computer driven cars.

Because the unions get any say on that and there is no one
with any balls like Maggie or Murdoch had to take them on.

Every time driverless trains or tubes are brought up, the vast majority of
those who use them are against.

And yet they use what driverless trains there are fine.

And even got real radical and use driverless lifts etc too.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Waimer
wrote:

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
. ..
In article , Waimer
wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

Frankly apart from Schengen - which isnt EU anyway,. there is
nothing about the EU I like.

What's not to like about no more wars in almost every generation
between western european countries ?

This has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with NATO.

In fact it was a progression, initially NATO, then the EEC, then the EU
etc.

Stop talking cock.

Today is not my day to be nice to ignorant ****s.

You do realise it's Wodney again? I'm waiting for him to argue with
himself once more.

Its never happened, you silly little drunken pathological liar.

En el artículo , Waimer
escribió:

**** off, Rod.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

En el artículo , The Natural Philosopher
escribió:

What unadulterated wombat turds

it's Woddles again. What do you expect?

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")

En el artículo , Tim
Streater escribió:

Stop talking cock.

It's Woddles, he's the expert at talking cock.

Today is not my day to be nice to ignorant ****s.



--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Bunny says: Windows 10? Nein danke!
(")_(")