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#1
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
(Spun off from Chris' thread).
Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. Cheers, Tim |
#2
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
"Tim Watts" wrote in message
... (Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. I would expect the cable could be at 40C at that load. However if you suspect that the switch is getting hotter than the cable then swap the switch [1] as it is only a few quid and see what happens. [1] A Yorkshireman can spend other peoples money:-) -- Adam |
#3
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On 18/12/15 19:32, ARW wrote:
I would expect the cable could be at 40C at that load. However if you suspect that the switch is getting hotter than the cable then swap the switch [1] as it is only a few quid and see what happens. [1] A Yorkshireman can spend other peoples money:-) Thank you Adam. Did not think to check the cable. IIRC I used 10mm2 for that one. Thinking P=I^2 x R, even if the switch has a contact resistance of 0.01 Ohms, that, for I=40A, would be 1600 x 0.01 = 16W developed across the contacts. In a fully plastic enclosure, I guess that is actually quite a bit of heat. Could be reasonable I suppose... Yeah - I'll get a new switch of the same make (for same terminal layout) next time I'm up TLC in a week or two. |
#4
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On Friday, 18 December 2015 19:43:47 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
Thinking P=I^2 x R, even if the switch has a contact resistance of 0.01 Ohms, that, for I=40A, would be 1600 x 0.01 = 16W developed across the contacts. In a fully plastic enclosure, I guess that is actually quite a bit of heat. Could be reasonable I suppose... Maybe Amendment 4 will require all switches 16A to be in non-combustible enclosures. Owain |
#5
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 19:10:46 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:
(Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. Cheers, Tim It's difficult to be certain. For fairly modern stuff it's "not hot enough to cause damage to the contacts or operating mechanism"! You'd really need to look at the manufacturers data sheet as that will indicate stuff like derating due to ambient temperature. |
#6
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
In article om,
mick writes: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 19:10:46 +0000, Tim Watts wrote: (Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. Cheers, Tim It's difficult to be certain. For fairly modern stuff it's "not hot enough to cause damage to the contacts or operating mechanism"! You'd really need to look at the manufacturers data sheet as that will indicate stuff like derating due to ambient temperature. Yep - datasheet (at least for professional quality parts) will tell you, because the heat from a breaker running at full load reduces the overload trip rating of the adjacent breakers. Hence there is sometimes a requirement to space out breakers expected to run at full load for long periods, so they don't overheat or take themselves or adjacent breakers too far from the rating plate. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
#7
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On 18/12/15 20:57, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Yep - datasheet (at least for professional quality parts) will tell you, because the heat from a breaker running at full load reduces the overload trip rating of the adjacent breakers. Hence there is sometimes a requirement to space out breakers expected to run at full load for long periods, so they don't overheat or take themselves or adjacent breakers too far from the rating plate. Just to clarify, this is an isolator - not the MCB/RCBO (which runs stone cold BTW). I lied about it being a GET - it's an MK: http://www.screwfix.com/p/mk-2-gang-...on-white/15973 Which is odd as all my other stuff is GET. Not much on the datasheet - nothing useful like contact resistance or derating |
#8
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 19:43:41 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:
Yeah - I'll get a new switch of the same make (for same terminal layout) next time I'm up TLC in a week or two. Hum, a plain switch running hot when the associated MCB/RCBO is cold. Bear in mind that MCBs have a thermal part...I think I'd be down the shops tommorow or not use what ever it is until the switch has been replaced. Why is terminal layout so critical? OK 10 mm2 isn't the most bendy stuff but the switch will be on a 47 mm deep box won't it to give room. Take a drawing of the layout with you so you can get something close. -- Cheers Dave. |
#9
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On 19/12/15 00:35, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 19:43:41 +0000, Tim Watts wrote: Yeah - I'll get a new switch of the same make (for same terminal layout) next time I'm up TLC in a week or two. Hum, a plain switch running hot when the associated MCB/RCBO is cold. Bear in mind that MCBs have a thermal part...I think I'd be down the shops tommorow or not use what ever it is until the switch has been replaced. Well, even I'm not going to panic quite that much This is only used when people are around. Why is terminal layout so critical? There's not much slack... OK 10 mm2 isn't the most bendy stuff but the switch will be on a 47 mm deep box won't it to give room. Take a drawing of the layout with you so you can get something close. |
#10
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On Friday, 18 December 2015 19:10:54 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
(Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. Cheers, Tim If the terminals are tight, change the switch. The contacts must be burnt/defective A shower is only run for a few minutes, there's no way it should get even warm. |
#11
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On 18/12/2015 19:43, Tim Watts wrote:
On 18/12/15 19:32, ARW wrote: I would expect the cable could be at 40C at that load. However if you suspect that the switch is getting hotter than the cable then swap the switch [1] as it is only a few quid and see what happens. [1] A Yorkshireman can spend other peoples money:-) Thank you Adam. Did not think to check the cable. IIRC I used 10mm2 for that one. Thinking P=I^2 x R, even if the switch has a contact resistance of 0.01 Ohms, that, for I=40A, would be 1600 x 0.01 = 16W developed across the contacts. In a fully plastic enclosure, I guess that is actually quite a bit of heat. Could be reasonable I suppose... Yeah - I'll get a new switch of the same make (for same terminal layout) next time I'm up TLC in a week or two. One other thing to think about is to uprate the switch to say a 60A, that will give you more headroom between the actual current flow and the maximum current rating of the switch, that hopefully would reduce I2R losses across the switch and hence reduce the overheating effect? |
#12
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On 19/12/15 08:09, I love spam wrote:
One other thing to think about is to uprate the switch to say a 60A, that will give you more headroom between the actual current flow and the maximum current rating of the switch, that hopefully would reduce I2R losses across the switch and hence reduce the overheating effect? I'm not aware anyone makes a 60A shower isolator? |
#13
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
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#14
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
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#15
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
harry Wrote in message:
On Friday, 18 December 2015 19:10:54 UTC, Tim Watts wrote: (Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. Cheers, Tim If the terminals are tight, change the switch. The contacts must be burnt/defective A shower is only run for a few minutes, there's no way it should get even warm. it's not a shower, it's a water heater. -- -- Chris French ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ |
#16
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On 18/12/15 19:10, Tim Watts wrote:
(Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. Cheers, Tim Well - I had a mate round (not a sparks) and I said: "touch that" (we use highly scientific testing methodologies in this household!) "Bloody hell, that's hot" he said. At which point I wandered off to B&Q (being open late on a Saturday). Interesting point - bought a Crabtree 50A unit to replace - the Crabtree has twin screw terminals (except earths) +1. It seems to have a ceramic switch unit mounted to a plastic body +another1 It says: "50A" on the back and the packet. The MK one (identical to the current one) is in a box on the shelves where the box and the packet say "50A" but it has "45A" printed on the plastic. -10 for lying. The terminals are the same single screw type mine is and the neon still has 2 weedly exposed wires that get pushed around by the 10mm2 going into the terminals. Conclusion: MK is not the brand it used to be. I will attempt to disassemble the old one and see if there's any interesting tell tales of overheating inside... |
#17
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote: On 18/12/15 19:10, Tim Watts wrote: (Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. Cheers, Tim Well - I had a mate round (not a sparks) and I said: "touch that" (we use highly scientific testing methodologies in this household!) "Bloody hell, that's hot" he said. At which point I wandered off to B&Q (being open late on a Saturday). Interesting point - bought a Crabtree 50A unit to replace - the Crabtree has twin screw terminals (except earths) +1. It seems to have a ceramic switch unit mounted to a plastic body +another1 It says: "50A" on the back and the packet. The MK one (identical to the current one) is in a box on the shelves where the box and the packet say "50A" but it has "45A" printed on the plastic. -10 for lying. The terminals are the same single screw type mine is and the neon still has 2 weedly exposed wires that get pushed around by the 10mm2 going into the terminals. Conclusion: MK is not the brand it used to be. Having looked at Wiki to check that I was right about the current owner ship of the company. I noticed that there is a "product recall" of certain switches. Could the one you have be affected? I will attempt to disassemble the old one and see if there's any interesting tell tales of overheating inside... -- Please note new email address: |
#18
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On 19/12/15 19:09, charles wrote:
Having looked at Wiki to check that I was right about the current owner ship of the company. I noticed that there is a "product recall" of certain switches. Could the one you have be affected? That's a CU main isolator, so anyone with an MK CU would be well advised to check it. Good mention. Not my part though - which is a K5215. So Honeywell own them now... Hmm. |
#19
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On Saturday, 19 December 2015 12:18:37 UTC, Chris French wrote:
harry Wrote in message: On Friday, 18 December 2015 19:10:54 UTC, Tim Watts wrote: (Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. Cheers, Tim If the terminals are tight, change the switch. The contacts must be burnt/defective A shower is only run for a few minutes, there's no way it should get even warm. it's not a shower, it's a water heater. That's some water heater that needs 45A 10Kw? |
#20
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On Sat, 19 Dec 2015 07:16:44 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:
Yeah - I'll get a new switch of the same make (for same terminal layout) next time I'm up TLC in a week or two. Hum, a plain switch running hot when the associated MCB/RCBO is cold. Bear in mind that MCBs have a thermal part...I think I'd be down the shops tommorow or not use what ever it is until the switch has been replaced. Well, even I'm not going to panic quite that much This is only used when people are around. But you still did when your mate came round and commented. B-) Why is terminal layout so critical? There's not much slack... OK 10 mm2 isn't the most bendy stuff but the switch will be on a 47 mm deep box won't it to give room. Tricky I know to leave slack with heavy cables, shallow boxes don't help. -- Cheers Dave. |
#21
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On 20/12/15 11:12, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2015 07:16:44 +0000, Tim Watts wrote: Yeah - I'll get a new switch of the same make (for same terminal layout) next time I'm up TLC in a week or two. Hum, a plain switch running hot when the associated MCB/RCBO is cold. Bear in mind that MCBs have a thermal part...I think I'd be down the shops tommorow or not use what ever it is until the switch has been replaced. Well, even I'm not going to panic quite that much This is only used when people are around. But you still did when your mate came round and commented. B-) Yes - sometimes it helps when some else agrees on the spot My sense of temperature by feel is not a well calibrated instrument - it helps to have a second opinion. Why is terminal layout so critical? There's not much slack... OK 10 mm2 isn't the most bendy stuff but the switch will be on a 47 mm deep box won't it to give room. Tricky I know to leave slack with heavy cables, shallow boxes don't help. Yes it is - and I used a 47mm box (of course - I'm not that stupid), but I did not leave much slack. So I will move the new box back a bit and replace the short run to the heater. That'll give me more room to get to the screws at the wall end. I slapped the thing in a hurry some years ago - none of it was optimal... Will do it a bit better this time. |
#22
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On 18/12/15 19:10, Tim Watts wrote:
(Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. Cheers, Tim Well, replaced after some hours with a Crabtree 50A isolator - and after filling a bath, it is virtually stone cold. The rocker has a hint of warmth, but you'd be hard pressed to tell. So the ultimate answer to the subject is "hardly at all". Apparently according to a sparky I was talking too (not Adam) have have also been making a mistake of twisting the strands in 10mm2 cable - something my dad always did.... |
#23
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On Sunday, 20 December 2015 17:22:53 UTC, Tim Watts wrote:
On 18/12/15 19:10, Tim Watts wrote: (Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. Cheers, Tim Well, replaced after some hours with a Crabtree 50A isolator - and after filling a bath, it is virtually stone cold. The rocker has a hint of warmth, but you'd be hard pressed to tell. So the ultimate answer to the subject is "hardly at all". Apparently according to a sparky I was talking too (not Adam) have have also been making a mistake of twisting the strands in 10mm2 cable - something my dad always did.... The terminal should ideally be as full of copper as possible before tightening the screws. So so, back off the terminal screws fully, twist up the cable if stranded and double over if necessary. On very large cables, the end should be bound with copper wire. Rarely seen these days. The object is to make sure the screw nips the cable rather than going between the strands. |
#24
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 19:10:46 -0000, Tim Watts wrote:
(Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. My parents' one gets hot. It's a 15A switch running a 3kW immersion heater. the front plate (plastic) gets to about 40C. When I looked inside there was nothing loose or otherwise untoward, so I bought a brand new decent (MK?) one. It got equally warm, so we decided to just ignore it. -- Why does the law society prohibit sex between lawyers and their clients? To prevent clients from being billed twice for essentially the same service. |
#25
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On 20/12/15 19:31, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 19:10:46 -0000, Tim Watts wrote: (Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. My parents' one gets hot. It's a 15A switch running a 3kW immersion heater. the front plate (plastic) gets to about 40C. When I looked inside there was nothing loose or otherwise untoward, so I bought a brand new decent (MK?) one. It got equally warm, so we decided to just ignore it. I've concluded MK are no longer decent - they are on my blacklist now. I did take the old one apart - nothing obviously wrong so I am assuming it is either a poor contact pad or a weak spring. |
#26
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 20:59:05 -0000, Tim Watts wrote:
On 20/12/15 19:31, Mr Macaw wrote: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 19:10:46 -0000, Tim Watts wrote: (Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. My parents' one gets hot. It's a 15A switch running a 3kW immersion heater. the front plate (plastic) gets to about 40C. When I looked inside there was nothing loose or otherwise untoward, so I bought a brand new decent (MK?) one. It got equally warm, so we decided to just ignore it. I've concluded MK are no longer decent - they are on my blacklist now. I did take the old one apart - nothing obviously wrong so I am assuming it is either a poor contact pad or a weak spring. All these regulations and nothing to test things to stay at a decent temperature. -- A man walks into a bar with a slab of asphalt under his arm and says, "A beer please, and one for the road." |
#27
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On Sunday, 20 December 2015 19:31:48 UTC, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 19:10:46 -0000, Tim Watts wrote: (Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. My parents' one gets hot. It's a 15A switch running a 3kW immersion heater. the front plate (plastic) gets to about 40C. When I looked inside there was nothing loose or otherwise untoward, so I bought a brand new decent (MK?) one. It got equally warm, so we decided to just ignore it. The temperature it gets to depends on the ambient temperature. You must make sure the cables are properly "nipped by the terminal screws. Some terminals are too big. Lots of electrical stuff is **** now thanks to the EUSSR and "harmonisation". Standards have definitely fallen. |
#28
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How hot do 45A isolators run under full sustained load?
On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 07:16:56 -0000, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 20 December 2015 19:31:48 UTC, Mr Macaw wrote: On Fri, 18 Dec 2015 19:10:46 -0000, Tim Watts wrote: (Spun off from Chris' thread). Just noticed my water heater isolator (about 45A load) gets rather warm after 15-30 mins of operation. Tightened the terminals - but it seems to be the switch element - the toggle base gets to perhaps 40-50C by feel. Never noticed before because I'd never really gone around feeling shower/water isolators under high sustained loads! Personally I'd expect a simple switch to be stone cold even under permanent full load. Is this reasonable - or time to replace? It's a GET plate - only 6 years old. My parents' one gets hot. It's a 15A switch running a 3kW immersion heater. the front plate (plastic) gets to about 40C. When I looked inside there was nothing loose or otherwise untoward, so I bought a brand new decent (MK?) one. It got equally warm, so we decided to just ignore it. The temperature it gets to depends on the ambient temperature. You must make sure the cables are properly "nipped by the terminal screws. Some terminals are too big. Lots of electrical stuff is **** now thanks to the EUSSR and "harmonisation". Standards have definitely fallen. The correct wiring was used and it was firmly in the terminals, I can't see there being unnecessary resistance there. I think it was coming from the switch part. -- 101 Dalmatians and Peter Pan are the only two Disney animated features in which both the parents are present and don't die throughout the movie. |
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