Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

ta,
cd.

On Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:17:41 +0000, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel

Sorry, I meant paraffin or kerosene when I said 'diesel'.

On Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:17:41 +0000, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Sigh. I should also have said moisture is an issue here - would like as
little condensation as poss without going 100% electric.

"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?


I'll be the first to say insulation is the first thing to consider.

--
Adam

On 13/09/15 16:28, ARW wrote:
"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?


I'll be the first to say insulation is the first thing to consider.


A dehumidifier might be worth considering as dry air feels less cold
than damp air, and it will offset any output produced by an unvented burner.

On 13/09/2015 16:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

ta,
cd.

What needs keeping warm? You or what a space heater heats (i.e. space)?

If it is you, consider infra-red. It is astonishing how warm you can
feel with even a 150 watt red glow pointing at you. Lidl usually have
some fairly inexpensive ones sometime around now.

--
Rod

On Sunday, 13 September 2015 16:19:38 UTC+1, Cursitor Doom wrote:
What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

I wouldn't have thought that propane or (road taxed) diesel would be cheaper than electricity.

If you want to avoid condensation and ventilation requirements you'd need a room sealed gas heater such as a Baxi Brazilia, with an LPG conversion kit. Or could you get mains gas to the workshop?

Owain

Cursitor Doom wrote

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old
man's thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space
heaters on the market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run

Not the heat pump approach. Significant capital cost tho.

and the only other alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types,

And LPG.

but which is the best bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

Propane or LPG if you dont mind the small risk of the
whole place blowing up very spectacularly indeed.

"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Sep 2015 15:17:41 +0000, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Sigh. I should also have said moisture is an issue here - would
like as little condensation as poss without going 100% electric.

Vented propane or LPG fixes that problem.

On Sunday, 13 September 2015 16:19:38 UTC+1, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

ta,
cd.

no-one's mentioned solid fuel. I guess you've discounted the idea of hassleful free heat.


NT

In article ,
says...

On 13/09/2015 16:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

ta,
cd.

What needs keeping warm? You or what a space heater heats (i.e. space)?

If it is you, consider infra-red. It is astonishing how warm you can
feel with even a 150 watt red glow pointing at you. Lidl usually have
some fairly inexpensive ones sometime around now.

Anyone tried heated clothing?

Something like
http://www.bosch-professional.com/gb...2490033-ocs-c/

Or since this is DIY

http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-heated-clothing/


--
Sam

"Sam Plusnet" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

On 13/09/2015 16:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

ta,
cd.

What needs keeping warm? You or what a space heater heats (i.e. space)?

If it is you, consider infra-red. It is astonishing how warm you can
feel with even a 150 watt red glow pointing at you. Lidl usually have
some fairly inexpensive ones sometime around now.

Anyone tried heated clothing?

Haven't tried it yet, mainly because its not that cheap at all
and my biggest problem is the cold arms and they mostly
don't bother to heat the arms. Its easy to have a couple
of fleeces that keep the chest warm enough, but that
doesn't help with the arms and hands.

Something like
http://www.bosch-professional.com/gb...2490033-ocs-c/

Or since this is DIY

http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-heated-clothing/

I have been tempted to try this route since I can't find much
that heats the arms.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"Sam Plusnet" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

On 13/09/2015 16:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

ta,
cd.

What needs keeping warm? You or what a space heater heats (i.e. space)?

If it is you, consider infra-red. It is astonishing how warm you can
feel with even a 150 watt red glow pointing at you. Lidl usually have
some fairly inexpensive ones sometime around now.

Anyone tried heated clothing?

Haven't tried it yet, mainly because its not that cheap at all
and my biggest problem is the cold arms and they mostly
don't bother to heat the arms. Its easy to have a couple
of fleeces that keep the chest warm enough, but that
doesn't help with the arms and hands.

Something like
http://www.bosch-professional.com/gb...2490033-ocs-c/

Or since this is DIY

http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-heated-clothing/

I have been tempted to try this route since I can't find much
that heats the arms.

But surely, with all the ******** you type your arms must be steaming?

On Sunday, 13 September 2015 16:19:38 UTC+1, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

ta,
cd.

Unless you are going to leave it on permanently, electric is the best choice as the actual heater will be cheapest by far.
Infra red as others have said.

If permanent, then entirely different ball game.
Insulation, draught proofing and can you extend your house heating (CH radiator)?

On Sunday, 13 September 2015 21:13:52 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
Haven't tried it yet, mainly because its not that cheap at all
and my biggest problem is the cold arms and they mostly
don't bother to heat the arms. Its easy to have a couple
of fleeces that keep the chest warm enough, but that
doesn't help with the arms and hands.

infra-red heater over the workbench. Probably only need a few hundred watts.

Owain

On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 7:11:07 AM UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 13 September 2015 16:19:38 UTC+1, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

ta,
cd.

Unless you are going to leave it on permanently, electric is the best choice as the actual heater will be cheapest by far.
Infra red as others have said.

If permanent, then entirely different ball game.
Insulation, draught proofing and can you extend your house heating (CH radiator)?

Unless you will be using the workshop for long periods of time I think electric would take too long to warm the place up.

I use a diesel fired blow heater. It warms up the place very fast and if I'm feeling chilly I can stand in front of it for a short time.

Condensation can be a problem but I cover all horizontal machine surfaces with made to measure panels of ply and throw a cloth over other items that are prone to rusting. The occasional application of machine wax helps also.

On Monday, 14 September 2015 10:27:56 UTC+1, wrote:
On Sunday, 13 September 2015 21:13:52 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
Haven't tried it yet, mainly because its not that cheap at all
and my biggest problem is the cold arms and they mostly
don't bother to heat the arms. Its easy to have a couple
of fleeces that keep the chest warm enough, but that
doesn't help with the arms and hands.

infra-red heater over the workbench. Probably only need a few hundred watts.

sounds like a bowl heater


NT

On 14/09/2015 11:45, fred wrote:
On Monday, September 14, 2015 at 7:11:07 AM UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 13 September 2015 16:19:38 UTC+1, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Hi all,


Unless you will be using the workshop for long periods of time I think electric would take too long to warm the place up.


I find for short periods of use in my relatively small workshop that an
electric fan heater is remarkably effective. I'd endorse IR radiants for
larger workshops or prolonged working (from experience in various
industrial workshops, rather than my own).




I use a diesel fired blow heater. It warms up the place very fast and if I'm feeling chilly I can stand in front of it for a short time.

Condensation can be a problem but I cover all horizontal machine surfaces with made to measure panels of ply and throw a cloth over other items that are prone to rusting. The occasional application of machine wax helps also.

On 13/09/2015 16:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

What kind of building is it, how big, and how well insulated?

If the answer to the latter is "not well" then, is there scope for
improvement?

I find fully electric in a 17' x 12' workshop that is fully lined with
2" of PIR foam to be relatively cheap. I have a wall mounted fan heater
with an external stat to keep it about about 5 deg. I can turn that up
when I am using it, and also supplement it with a standalone halogen
heater. Only really needed for 20 mins to get the place to a comfortable
temperature, then the fan heater will maintain it.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
On 13/09/2015 16:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

What kind of building is it, how big, and how well insulated?

If the answer to the latter is "not well" then, is there scope for
improvement?

I find fully electric in a 17' x 12' workshop that is fully lined with
2" of PIR foam to be relatively cheap. I have a wall mounted fan
heater with an external stat to keep it about about 5 deg. I can turn
that up when I am using it, and also supplement it with a standalone
halogen heater. Only really needed for 20 mins to get the place to a
comfortable temperature, then the fan heater will maintain it.


I use a heat pump.

In message , Capitol
writes
John Rumm wrote:
I find fully electric in a 17' x 12' workshop that is fully lined
with 2" of PIR foam to be relatively cheap. I have a wall mounted fan
heater with an external stat to keep it about about 5 deg. I can turn
that up when I am using it, and also supplement it with a standalone
halogen heater. Only really needed for 20 mins to get the place to a
comfortable temperature, then the fan heater will maintain it.


I use a heat pump.

Kindly expand..

I briefly considered an air source heat pump for my carpentry tenant.
AFAIR for around 1000ukp I could get his partitioned off office up to a
reasonable temperature.

Heating the remaining 120 m2 was out of reach. Intermittent occupation
did not help. Ideally something over 10deg.C for gluing.

Currently he is exploring electric fan heating spread across 3 phases.
The roof has 75mm of PIR foam but the walls are 4" block. Internal
insulation would be extremely disruptive and external leaves the thermal
delay of heating the walls.

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message ,
Capitol writes
John Rumm wrote:
I find fully electric in a 17' x 12' workshop that is fully lined
with 2" of PIR foam to be relatively cheap. I have a wall mounted
fan heater with an external stat to keep it about about 5 deg. I can
turn that up when I am using it, and also supplement it with a
standalone halogen heater. Only really needed for 20 mins to get the
place to a comfortable temperature, then the fan heater will
maintain it.


I use a heat pump.

Kindly expand..

I briefly considered an air source heat pump for my carpentry tenant.
AFAIR for around 1000ukp I could get his partitioned off office up to
a reasonable temperature.

Heating the remaining 120 m2 was out of reach. Intermittent occupation
did not help. Ideally something over 10deg.C for gluing.

Currently he is exploring electric fan heating spread across 3 phases.
The roof has 75mm of PIR foam but the walls are 4" block. Internal
insulation would be extremely disruptive and external leaves the
thermal delay of heating the walls.

This is a 12K btu aircon unit which puts out 3.6Kw nominal with
a nominal efficiency of 300% into 7 x 20 x 20 ft. The floor is
uninsulated, the walls have 1" of glass fibre insulation, topped by 1/2"
ply, with bubble insulated metal doors. The ceiling has 4" of glass
fibre under 1/2" plasterboard, topped by 3/4 inch plywood. Plus all the
rubbish stored in the loft in case it is useful! It takes about 1/2 an
hour to heat up to 26C with 5C outside temperature.. Also useful for
perhaps 1 day per year as air conditioner!

On Wednesday, 16 September 2015 12:11:59 UTC+1, Capitol wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
In message ,
Capitol writes
John Rumm wrote:
I find fully electric in a 17' x 12' workshop that is fully lined
with 2" of PIR foam to be relatively cheap. I have a wall mounted
fan heater with an external stat to keep it about about 5 deg. I can
turn that up when I am using it, and also supplement it with a
standalone halogen heater. Only really needed for 20 mins to get the
place to a comfortable temperature, then the fan heater will
maintain it.


I use a heat pump.

Kindly expand..

I briefly considered an air source heat pump for my carpentry tenant.
AFAIR for around 1000ukp I could get his partitioned off office up to
a reasonable temperature.

Heating the remaining 120 m2 was out of reach. Intermittent occupation
did not help. Ideally something over 10deg.C for gluing.

dehumidifier plus fan works very well for drying clothing

Currently he is exploring electric fan heating spread across 3 phases.
The roof has 75mm of PIR foam but the walls are 4" block. Internal
insulation would be extremely disruptive and external leaves the
thermal delay of heating the walls.

This is a 12K btu aircon unit which puts out 3.6Kw nominal with
a nominal efficiency of 300% into 7 x 20 x 20 ft. The floor is
uninsulated, the walls have 1" of glass fibre insulation, topped by 1/2"
ply, with bubble insulated metal doors. The ceiling has 4" of glass
fibre under 1/2" plasterboard, topped by 3/4 inch plywood. Plus all the
rubbish stored in the loft in case it is useful! It takes about 1/2 an
hour to heat up to 26C with 5C outside temperature.. Also useful for
perhaps 1 day per year as air conditioner!

I kind of wonder how practical it would be to take a fair number of scrapped fridges that work, and use their mechanics to heat a house.


NT

In message , Capitol
writes
Tim Lamb wrote:
In message ,
Capitol writes
John Rumm wrote:
I find fully electric in a 17' x 12' workshop that is fully lined
with 2" of PIR foam to be relatively cheap. I have a wall mounted
fan heater with an external stat to keep it about about 5 deg. I can
turn that up when I am using it, and also supplement it with a
standalone halogen heater. Only really needed for 20 mins to get the
place to a comfortable temperature, then the fan heater will maintain it.


I use a heat pump.

Kindly expand..

I briefly considered an air source heat pump for my carpentry tenant.
AFAIR for around 1000ukp I could get his partitioned off office up to
a reasonable temperature.

Heating the remaining 120 m2 was out of reach. Intermittent
occupation did not help. Ideally something over 10deg.C for gluing.

Currently he is exploring electric fan heating spread across 3
phases. The roof has 75mm of PIR foam but the walls are 4" block.
Internal insulation would be extremely disruptive and external leaves
the thermal delay of heating the walls.

This is a 12K btu aircon unit which puts out 3.6Kw nominal with
a nominal efficiency of 300% into 7 x 20 x 20 ft. The floor is
uninsulated, the walls have 1" of glass fibre insulation, topped by
1/2" ply, with bubble insulated metal doors. The ceiling has 4" of
glass fibre under 1/2" plasterboard, topped by 3/4 inch plywood. Plus
all the rubbish stored in the loft in case it is useful! It takes about
1/2 an hour to heat up to 26C with 5C outside temperature.. Also useful
for perhaps 1 day per year as air conditioner!

That's impressive. How much?

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:
In message ,
Capitol writes
Tim Lamb wrote:
In message ,
Capitol writes
John Rumm wrote:
I find fully electric in a 17' x 12' workshop that is fully lined
with 2" of PIR foam to be relatively cheap. I have a wall mounted
fan heater with an external stat to keep it about about 5 deg. I
can turn that up when I am using it, and also supplement it with a
standalone halogen heater. Only really needed for 20 mins to get
the place to a comfortable temperature, then the fan heater will
maintain it.


I use a heat pump.

Kindly expand..

I briefly considered an air source heat pump for my carpentry
tenant. AFAIR for around 1000ukp I could get his partitioned off
office up to a reasonable temperature.

Heating the remaining 120 m2 was out of reach. Intermittent
occupation did not help. Ideally something over 10deg.C for gluing.

Currently he is exploring electric fan heating spread across 3
phases. The roof has 75mm of PIR foam but the walls are 4" block.
Internal insulation would be extremely disruptive and external
leaves the thermal delay of heating the walls.

This is a 12K btu aircon unit which puts out 3.6Kw nominal
with a nominal efficiency of 300% into 7 x 20 x 20 ft. The floor is
uninsulated, the walls have 1" of glass fibre insulation, topped by
1/2" ply, with bubble insulated metal doors. The ceiling has 4" of
glass fibre under 1/2" plasterboard, topped by 3/4 inch plywood. Plus
all the rubbish stored in the loft in case it is useful! It takes
about 1/2 an hour to heat up to 26C with 5C outside temperature..
Also useful for perhaps 1 day per year as air conditioner!

That's impressive. How much?

I paid about £230, some years ago. I think the best going price
for a similar unit now is around double that. Many hotels and pubs are
now using these units to reduce heating costs without requiring boiler
installations and oil tanks. Secondhand units can be found for about
£100, but will require regassing. Should be less than £100 for the
service. Cars are £50-85 for the service.

On 13/09/2015 16:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:
Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

How about a li'l ole pot-belly stove?

"Cursitor Doom" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

ta,
cd.

I have a waste oil burner in my barn which fit the bill for cost to run v
heat output.

perhaps no so good if you have near neighbours



-

In message , Capitol
writes
This is a 12K btu aircon unit which puts out 3.6Kw nominal
with a nominal efficiency of 300% into 7 x 20 x 20 ft. The floor is
uninsulated, the walls have 1" of glass fibre insulation, topped by
1/2" ply, with bubble insulated metal doors. The ceiling has 4" of
glass fibre under 1/2" plasterboard, topped by 3/4 inch plywood. Plus
all the rubbish stored in the loft in case it is useful! It takes
about 1/2 an hour to heat up to 26C with 5C outside temperature..
Also useful for perhaps 1 day per year as air conditioner!

That's impressive. How much?

I paid about £230, some years ago. I think the best going price
for a similar unit now is around double that. Many hotels and pubs are
now using these units to reduce heating costs without requiring boiler
installations and oil tanks. Secondhand units can be found for about
£100, but will require regassing. Should be less than £100 for the
service. Cars are £50-85 for the service.

OK I'll pass it on. Ta

--
Tim Lamb

www.GymRatZ.co.uk wrote:
On 13/09/2015 16:17, Cursitor Doom wrote:

Hi all,

What with the colder weather just around the corner, an old man's
thoughts turn to keeping warm. There are various space heaters on the
market. Electric ones are just too expensive to run and the only other
alternatives seem to be propane or diesel types, but which is the best
bet overall in terms of, well, everything?

How about a li'l ole pot-belly stove?


Fitted one of those in the workshop to burn up bits of wood.
Problem is the output is about 7Kw, so you end up opening dors to get
rid of the heat.

On 16/09/2015 17:20, Capitol wrote:

How about a li'l ole pot-belly stove?


Fitted one of those in the workshop to burn up bits of wood.
Problem is the output is about 7Kw, so you end up opening dors to get
rid of the heat.

Might try and squeeze one into our new garage somewhere if we ever get a
roof on.

wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, 16 September 2015 12:11:59 UTC+1, Capitol wrote:
Tim Lamb wrote:
In message ,
Capitol writes
John Rumm wrote:
I find fully electric in a 17' x 12' workshop that is fully lined
with 2" of PIR foam to be relatively cheap. I have a wall mounted
fan heater with an external stat to keep it about about 5 deg. I can
turn that up when I am using it, and also supplement it with a
standalone halogen heater. Only really needed for 20 mins to get the
place to a comfortable temperature, then the fan heater will
maintain it.


I use a heat pump.

Kindly expand..

I briefly considered an air source heat pump for my carpentry tenant.
AFAIR for around 1000ukp I could get his partitioned off office up to
a reasonable temperature.

Heating the remaining 120 m2 was out of reach. Intermittent occupation
did not help. Ideally something over 10deg.C for gluing.

dehumidifier plus fan works very well for drying clothing

Currently he is exploring electric fan heating spread across 3 phases.
The roof has 75mm of PIR foam but the walls are 4" block. Internal
insulation would be extremely disruptive and external leaves the
thermal delay of heating the walls.

This is a 12K btu aircon unit which puts out 3.6Kw nominal with
a nominal efficiency of 300% into 7 x 20 x 20 ft. The floor is
uninsulated, the walls have 1" of glass fibre insulation, topped by 1/2"
ply, with bubble insulated metal doors. The ceiling has 4" of glass
fibre under 1/2" plasterboard, topped by 3/4 inch plywood. Plus all the
rubbish stored in the loft in case it is useful! It takes about 1/2 an
hour to heat up to 26C with 5C outside temperature.. Also useful for
perhaps 1 day per year as air conditioner!

I kind of wonder how practical it would be to take a fair number of
scrapped fridges that work, and use their mechanics to heat a house.

Very impractical.