An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

Ask the expert what the others put in that the supermarkets don't and
you will have your answer.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

Ask the expert what the others put in that the supermarkets don't and you
will have your answer.

Has anyone (eg a motoring organisation) done any comparisons on mpg and
general smoothness of engine (difficult to quantify the latter!) for various
brands of supermarket fuel versus various brands from named fuel chains
(Jet, Esso, Shell, Texaco etc)?

The only time I've noticed a slightly smoother engine (though no significant
improvement in mpg) was when I accidently filled up with premium diesel
instead of standard diesel - and a lot of that may have been wishful
thinking to compensate for paying through the nose for the "gold plated"
fuel :-) I wouldn't have minded quite so much but I'd driven past loads of
garages on my journey, holding out for the cheapest garage that I happened
to pass, and then when I found a cheap garage I went and used the premium
holster instead of the standard one. Shame they aren't different colours (eg
black versus black with yellow stripes, or something like that).

dennis@home wrote:
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

Ask the expert what the others put in that the supermarkets don't and
you will have your answer.

He says it's additives that clean the engine, but it takes three
tankfuls to get the full effect.

Bill

On 20/08/15 22:36, dennis@home wrote:
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

Ask the expert what the others put in that the supermarkets don't and
you will have your answer.

I knew someone who worked for Fina once. Yes, it is true that bulk fuel
is "bland" and certain additives as specified by the customer are added
at the point of delivery (as least with Fina).

So it is quite possible to have a "special blend" for some pump and
"plain vanilla" for the supermarket down the road.

Personally, at least with modern cars, fuel is fuel - I use the basic
grade of diesel and see no particular point in the "ultimate" versions.

On 21/08/2015 03:58, Bill Wright wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

Ask the expert what the others put in that the supermarkets don't and
you will have your answer.

He says it's additives that clean the engine, but it takes three
tankfuls to get the full effect.

Bill

They all add additives which ones does he think the others have that the
supermarkets don't?

"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

Ask the expert what the others put in that the supermarkets don't and you
will have your answer.

Has anyone (eg a motoring organisation) done any comparisons on mpg and
general smoothness of engine (difficult to quantify the latter!) for
various brands of supermarket fuel versus various brands from named fuel
chains (Jet, Esso, Shell, Texaco etc)?

The only time I've noticed a slightly smoother engine (though no
significant improvement in mpg) was when I accidently filled up with
premium diesel instead of standard diesel - and a lot of that may have been
wishful thinking to compensate for paying through the nose for the "gold
plated" fuel :-) I wouldn't have minded quite so much but I'd driven past
loads of garages on my journey, holding out for the cheapest garage that I
happened to pass, and then when I found a cheap garage I went and used the
premium holster instead of the standard one. Shame they aren't different
colours (eg black versus black with yellow stripes, or something like
that).

Many years back, the father of my then current girl friend was adamant that
he would only use Shell, and never BP as his Rover 110 went so much better
on it. I wasn't popular when I pointed out that (at the time) they shared a
delivery fleet and the same tanker delivered both so they were the same.

Point of the story - it's very subjective and the judgement is coloured by
preconceptions.

Andrew

In article , Andrew Mawson
wrote:
"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as
other fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

Ask the expert what the others put in that the supermarkets don't and
you will have your answer.

Has anyone (eg a motoring organisation) done any comparisons on mpg and
general smoothness of engine (difficult to quantify the latter!) for
various brands of supermarket fuel versus various brands from named fuel
chains (Jet, Esso, Shell, Texaco etc)?

The only time I've noticed a slightly smoother engine (though no
significant improvement in mpg) was when I accidently filled up with
premium diesel instead of standard diesel - and a lot of that may have
been wishful thinking to compensate for paying through the nose for the
"gold plated" fuel :-) I wouldn't have minded quite so much but I'd
driven past loads of garages on my journey, holding out for the
cheapest garage that I happened to pass, and then when I found a cheap
garage I went and used the premium holster instead of the standard one.
Shame they aren't different colours (eg black versus black with yellow
stripes, or something like that).

Many years back, the father of my then current girl friend was adamant
that he would only use Shell, and never BP as his Rover 110 went so much
better on it. I wasn't popular when I pointed out that (at the time)
they shared a delivery fleet and the same tanker delivered both so they
were the same.

Point of the story - it's very subjective and the judgement is coloured
by preconceptions.

Like the Austin/Morris arguement
Andrew

--
Please note new email address:

On 21/08/2015 09:13, charles wrote:
In article , Andrew Mawson
wrote:
"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as
other fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

Ask the expert what the others put in that the supermarkets don't and
you will have your answer.

Has anyone (eg a motoring organisation) done any comparisons on mpg and
general smoothness of engine (difficult to quantify the latter!) for
various brands of supermarket fuel versus various brands from named fuel
chains (Jet, Esso, Shell, Texaco etc)?

The only time I've noticed a slightly smoother engine (though no
significant improvement in mpg) was when I accidently filled up with
premium diesel instead of standard diesel - and a lot of that may have
been wishful thinking to compensate for paying through the nose for the
"gold plated" fuel :-) I wouldn't have minded quite so much but I'd
driven past loads of garages on my journey, holding out for the
cheapest garage that I happened to pass, and then when I found a cheap
garage I went and used the premium holster instead of the standard one.
Shame they aren't different colours (eg black versus black with yellow
stripes, or something like that).

Many years back, the father of my then current girl friend was adamant
that he would only use Shell, and never BP as his Rover 110 went so much
better on it. I wasn't popular when I pointed out that (at the time)
they shared a delivery fleet and the same tanker delivered both so they
were the same.

Point of the story - it's very subjective and the judgement is coloured
by preconceptions.

Like the Austin/Morris arguement

The Morris / Austin argument was also fuelled by having differing ranges
of accessories.

"Bill Wright" wrote in message ...
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other fuel. He says
it's all down to the additives.

Additives in fuel as touted by the major brands were
simply a means of product segmentation. Basically
Shell say could sell the same fuel to two different
types of customer - Premium fuel to those in search
of the "best quality" product, and "ordinary" to
customers who were a nit more price sensitive.
However as with Coca Cola, the additives - which in the
case of petrol have never been much of a secret cost say
Ip per gallon to add, whereas the petrol sold at say an
extra 5p or 10p per gallon at the pump. Because people
who want the "best quality" actually expect to pay a
lot more. The bigger the price differential in fact
the happier they are, within limits

However nowadays with supermarkets having such a large
share in the market, and thus able to beat the wholesalers
down on price, while employing their own chemists
there's no reason they shouldn't be adding any additives,
at a cost of a penny or two per gallon which they think
will improve the quality of their product as against that
of their rivals


michael adams

....

I heard a talking head the other day saying that as supermarket fuel is
bought on something called the spot market, it can vary, and is often quite
old and thus its octane value can be depleted.
Perhaps someone can tell me how old fuel loses its octane value? Storage
of fuel surely has to be nailed by now.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:44:51 +0100, Brian-Gaff wrote:

Storage of fuel surely has to be nailed by now.

Quite the opposite. Modern fuel is more volatile than it used to be, and
"goes off" more quickly.

Supermarket fuel comes from the same small handful of regional
distribution depots as any other fuel. Their tanks are fed from the same
pipelines from the same tiny handful of national refineries as any other
fuel.

The ONLY difference is the almost homeopathic buckets of additive poured
into the tanker at the time of filling.

Remember - the basic diesel and 95RON Premium Unleaded petrol are
governed by international standards. If it doesn't meet that, it can't be
sold. Cars are developed to run perfectly happily on that basic standard
of fuel.

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:44:51 +0100, Brian-Gaff wrote:

Storage of fuel surely has to be nailed by now.

Quite the opposite. Modern fuel is more volatile than it used to be, and
"goes off" more quickly.

Supermarket fuel comes from the same small handful of regional
distribution depots as any other fuel. Their tanks are fed from the same
pipelines from the same tiny handful of national refineries as any other
fuel.

The ONLY difference is the almost homeopathic buckets of additive poured
into the tanker at the time of filling.

Or the non-homeopathic buckets of highly non-approved additives added by the
forecourt :-(

There was a story in the local paper about 40 years ago about a garage owner
nearby who had been prosecuted for adding buckets of *water* (yes, water!)
to his forecourt petrol tanks to make the delivery go further!!! People had
been complaining that their cars misfired after filling up at his garage.
The tank was dipped and the petrol was found to be contaminated with water.
He tried to claim in court that rainwater had been leaking into the tank -
until an undercover photo was produced showing him pouring a liquid from a
bucket into the manhole of the tank...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
b.com...
On 21/08/2015 03:58, Bill Wright wrote:
dennis@home wrote:
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as
other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Ask the expert what the others put in that the supermarkets don't and
you will have your answer.

He says it's additives that clean the engine, but it takes three
tankfuls to get the full effect.

They all add additives

You don’t know that with the supermarkets.

which ones does he think the others have that the supermarkets don't?

Its not a matter of have, it’s a matter of what they choose to add.

Fredxxx wrote:
Like the Austin/Morris arguement

The Morris / Austin argument

Subtle is good
--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

The only time I've noticed a slightly smoother engine (though no significant
improvement in mpg) was when I accidently filled up with premium diesel
instead of standard diesel - and a lot of that may have been wishful
thinking to compensate for paying through the nose for the "gold plated"
fuel :-) I wouldn't have minded quite so much but I'd driven past loads of
garages on my journey, holding out for the cheapest garage that I happened
to pass, and then when I found a cheap garage I went and used the premium
holster instead of the standard one. Shame they aren't different colours (eg
black versus black with yellow stripes, or something like that).

might depend on the car's sophistication. A quality engine will monitor pinking and adjust the timing and fuel ratio to optimise burning with the better quality (petrol anyway) it finds. An older car will just be set to run on the worst fuel around.

On 21/08/15 09:50, Adrian wrote:
On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:44:51 +0100, Brian-Gaff wrote:

Storage of fuel surely has to be nailed by now.

Quite the opposite. Modern fuel is more volatile than it used to be, and
"goes off" more quickly.

Supermarket fuel comes from the same small handful of regional
distribution depots as any other fuel. Their tanks are fed from the same
pipelines from the same tiny handful of national refineries as any other
fuel.

The ONLY difference is the almost homeopathic buckets of additive poured
into the tanker at the time of filling.

Remember - the basic diesel and 95RON Premium Unleaded petrol are
governed by international standards. If it doesn't meet that, it can't be
sold. Cars are developed to run perfectly happily on that basic standard
of fuel.


Yes, but within that basic spec there are subtle variations depending on
the refinery and the crude pushed into it.

I have definitely had diesel that is a little worse than elsewhere - and
even diesel that was so bad that the trick barely ran till it was
refuelled. That was a real outlier though. I suspect it was a hone brew
and illegal.



--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On 21/08/15 10:35, therustyone wrote:


The only time I've noticed a slightly smoother engine (though no
significant improvement in mpg) was when I accidently filled up
with premium diesel instead of standard diesel - and a lot of that
may have been wishful thinking to compensate for paying through the
nose for the "gold plated" fuel :-) I wouldn't have minded quite
so much but I'd driven past loads of garages on my journey, holding
out for the cheapest garage that I happened to pass, and then when
I found a cheap garage I went and used the premium holster instead
of the standard one. Shame they aren't different colours (eg black
versus black with yellow stripes, or something like that).

might depend on the car's sophistication. A quality engine will
monitor pinking and adjust the timing and fuel ratio to optimise
burning with the better quality (petrol anyway) it finds. An older
car will just be set to run on the worst fuel around.

However a car adjusted to run on low grade fuel either by fixed design
or automatically will still run better on better fuel.


--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

This article gives as good an answer as any:

http://www.simplemotoring.co.uk/supe...branded-fuels/


--
Colin Bignell

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
Supermarket fuel comes from the same small handful of regional
distribution depots as any other fuel. Their tanks are fed from the same
pipelines from the same tiny handful of national refineries as any other
fuel.

In the '90s, BMW had problems with some of their engines which had ally
bores 'coated' with Nikasil. Some petrol attacked this coating - but not
all. It was thought to be imported stuff which used a high sulphur base
rather than the crude used in UK refineries. Mainly sold by supermarkets
in the north of England, and some other low cost outlets.

--
*I wished the buck stopped here, as I could use a few*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , Bill Wright
writes
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as
other fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

This argument has been going on as long as I have been buying petrol
(mid 60s), and doubtless a lot longer. Don't buy cheap brands - they're
made from the dregs at the bottom of the tanker's tank. Or they're made
from inferior oil. Or they don't have magic additives. Or they have
inferior additives. Or they're 'watered down' with something.

To be honest, having driven countless petrol vehicles from old Minors
and Anglias to fairly modern sophisticated vehicles, I have never really
noticed a difference. The engine either runs well, or not.
--
Graeme

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 21/08/15 10:35, therustyone wrote:


The only time I've noticed a slightly smoother engine (though no
significant improvement in mpg) was when I accidently filled up
with premium diesel instead of standard diesel - and a lot of that
may have been wishful thinking to compensate for paying through the
nose for the "gold plated" fuel :-) I wouldn't have minded quite
so much but I'd driven past loads of garages on my journey, holding
out for the cheapest garage that I happened to pass, and then when
I found a cheap garage I went and used the premium holster instead
of the standard one. Shame they aren't different colours (eg black
versus black with yellow stripes, or something like that).

might depend on the car's sophistication. A quality engine will
monitor pinking and adjust the timing and fuel ratio to optimise
burning with the better quality (petrol anyway) it finds. An older
car will just be set to run on the worst fuel around.

However a car adjusted to run on low grade fuel either by fixed design or
automatically will still run better on better fuel.

The first diesel car i had, a Peugeot 306 with the 1.9 non-HDi engine, had a
tendency to hiccup slightly as I applied a small amount of power after
braking (ie when the accelerator had previously been fully off) and when
coming right off the power as I was about to brake. It was as if there was a
minimum amount of fuel that the engine could deliver, with a sudden cut-off
as you released the accelerator below this point and a sudden delivery of
fuel as you pressed the pedal, rather than smooth control right down to
zero.

It was this symptom which seemed to be better with premium diesel than
normal diesel. However it returned as soon as I filled up with normal diesel
again, so any cleaning additives in the premium had a very short-lived
effect. A bottle of injector-cleaning additive in the tank had a much more
long-lasting improvement on the symptom, which only returned several
thousand miles later.

On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 10:52:40 AM UTC+1, Nightjar cpb wrote:
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

This article gives as good an answer as any:

http://www.simplemotoring.co.uk/supe...branded-fuels/



The comments are interesting. Lots of correlation / causation confusion as usual.
Perhaps the fuel companies should be obliged to list the additives they use, like is required for food. If not the exact chemicals due to trade secrets, then some more generic way of describing them I suppose.

Simon.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 02:35:40 -0700, therustyone wrote:

might depend on the car's sophistication. A quality engine will monitor
pinking and adjust the timing and fuel ratio to optimise burning with
the better quality (petrol anyway) it finds. An older car will just be
set to run on the worst fuel around.

Most modern cars will go down from a base map, if knock's detected.
But most are set to a 95RON base map. They won't go up from there.

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:25:28 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

On 21/08/2015 09:13, charles wrote:
In article , Andrew Mawson
wrote:
"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as
other fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

Ask the expert what the others put in that the supermarkets don't
and you will have your answer.

Has anyone (eg a motoring organisation) done any comparisons on mpg
and general smoothness of engine (difficult to quantify the latter!)
for various brands of supermarket fuel versus various brands from
named fuel chains (Jet, Esso, Shell, Texaco etc)?

The only time I've noticed a slightly smoother engine (though no
significant improvement in mpg) was when I accidently filled up with
premium diesel instead of standard diesel - and a lot of that may
have been wishful thinking to compensate for paying through the nose
for the "gold plated" fuel :-) I wouldn't have minded quite so much
but I'd driven past loads of garages on my journey, holding out for
the cheapest garage that I happened to pass, and then when I found a
cheap garage I went and used the premium holster instead of the
standard one. Shame they aren't different colours (eg black versus
black with yellow stripes, or something like that).

Many years back, the father of my then current girl friend was adamant
that he would only use Shell, and never BP as his Rover 110 went so
much better on it. I wasn't popular when I pointed out that (at the
time) they shared a delivery fleet and the same tanker delivered both
so they were the same.

Point of the story - it's very subjective and the judgement is
coloured by preconceptions.

Like the Austin/Morris arguement

The Morris / Austin argument was also fuelled by having differing ranges
of accessories.

The most amusing car I saw from BMC was the Vanden Plas - 1100! The
owners of course swore it was faster, more economical, built better,
etc...

On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 9:44:51 AM UTC+1, Brian-Gaff wrote:
I heard a talking head the other day saying that as supermarket fuel is
bought on something called the spot market, it can vary, and is often quite
old and thus its octane value can be depleted.
Perhaps someone can tell me how old fuel loses its octane value? Storage
of fuel surely has to be nailed by now.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

Remember the silicon contaminated fuel scandal , where supermarkets were found to be buying fuel from the Arthur Daley Refinery...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_U..._contamination

On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:

An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

There are tiny differences in the additive packages with the
supermarkets cutting corners a bit but all the fuel is to the British
standard and only the tetchiest of engines will see any difference.

It really only matters when they put the entirely the wrong additive
package in as happened in 2007 and again in 2014 to a lesser extent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_U..._contamination

Petrol engines really don't like the *diesel* additive package.

FWIW I am happy to buy supermarket fuel at the best price I can get.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 21/08/2015 11:30, sm_jamieson wrote:
On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 10:52:40 AM UTC+1, Nightjar cpb wrote:
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

This article gives as good an answer as any:

http://www.simplemotoring.co.uk/supe...branded-fuels/

The comments are interesting. Lots of correlation / causation confusion as usual.

Some of it real and some imagined. There is a far greater variation
between individual filling stations and the state of their tanks.

Perhaps the fuel companies should be obliged to list the additives they use, like is required for food.
If not the exact chemicals due to trade secrets, then some more
generic way of describing them I suppose.

That would scare the hell out of every car owner on the planet.

There is an exemption for motor fuel that permits it to be sold to the
public despite containing around 1% of the known carcinogen benzene. It
is the lesser of two evils since tetraethyl lead was banned.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
The most amusing car I saw from BMC was the Vanden Plas - 1100! The
owners of course swore it was faster, more economical, built better,
etc...

Yes, bog-standard 1100 with VdP extras like wooden dashboard and Rolls Royce
type radiator grille. Not sure whether there was thicker carpet and deeper
padding / lumbar adjustment etc on seats.

Probably different dashboard instruments - maybe circular gauges rather than
ribbon speedo with combined fuel/temp gauges in bottom corners. I can never
remember - was it the Austin or Morris version that had the ribbon speedo?
Which of those two was regarded as the base version and which was one step
up?

My grandpa replaced his big Wolseley 16/60 (Austin Cambridge / Morris Oxford
body) with a Wolseley 1100 (complete with illuminated radiator badge!) but
got rid of it fairly soon after because it wasn't "luxurious" enough - he
got a Triumph Dolomite after that.

In article , Bob Eager
scribeth thus
On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:25:28 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

On 21/08/2015 09:13, charles wrote:
In article , Andrew Mawson
wrote:
"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as
other fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

Ask the expert what the others put in that the supermarkets don't
and you will have your answer.

Has anyone (eg a motoring organisation) done any comparisons on mpg
and general smoothness of engine (difficult to quantify the latter!)
for various brands of supermarket fuel versus various brands from
named fuel chains (Jet, Esso, Shell, Texaco etc)?

The only time I've noticed a slightly smoother engine (though no
significant improvement in mpg) was when I accidently filled up with
premium diesel instead of standard diesel - and a lot of that may
have been wishful thinking to compensate for paying through the nose
for the "gold plated" fuel :-) I wouldn't have minded quite so much
but I'd driven past loads of garages on my journey, holding out for
the cheapest garage that I happened to pass, and then when I found a
cheap garage I went and used the premium holster instead of the
standard one. Shame they aren't different colours (eg black versus
black with yellow stripes, or something like that).

Many years back, the father of my then current girl friend was adamant
that he would only use Shell, and never BP as his Rover 110 went so
much better on it. I wasn't popular when I pointed out that (at the
time) they shared a delivery fleet and the same tanker delivered both
so they were the same.

Point of the story - it's very subjective and the judgement is
coloured by preconceptions.

Like the Austin/Morris arguement

The Morris / Austin argument was also fuelled by having differing ranges
of accessories.

The most amusing car I saw from BMC was the Vanden Plas - 1100! The
owners of course swore it was faster, more economical, built better,
etc...


Same thing in the TV field there was a Dynatron just a standard BRC
chassis like their lowly brethren but it had a nice "cabinet"

Apparently they had or once had the Royal Warrant to the Queen who
supposedly had one at Buck palace....

--
Tony Sayer

On 21/08/2015 10:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 21/08/15 10:35, therustyone wrote:


The only time I've noticed a slightly smoother engine (though no
significant improvement in mpg) was when I accidently filled up
with premium diesel instead of standard diesel - and a lot of that
may have been wishful thinking to compensate for paying through the
nose for the "gold plated" fuel :-) I wouldn't have minded quite
so much but I'd driven past loads of garages on my journey, holding
out for the cheapest garage that I happened to pass, and then when
I found a cheap garage I went and used the premium holster instead
of the standard one. Shame they aren't different colours (eg black
versus black with yellow stripes, or something like that).

might depend on the car's sophistication. A quality engine will
monitor pinking and adjust the timing and fuel ratio to optimise
burning with the better quality (petrol anyway) it finds. An older
car will just be set to run on the worst fuel around.

However a car adjusted to run on low grade fuel either by fixed design
or automatically will still run better on better fuel.

No the case for petrol engines.

The octane rating represents resistance to knocking, the higher the
octane the higher the compression and advanced timing.

A side effect is that the fuel burns slower, so good fuel into a car
designed for a poor grade may run snoother but be less efficient and
produce less power.

In article , tony sayer
wrote:
In article , Bob Eager
scribeth thus
On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 09:25:28 +0100, Fredxxx wrote:

On 21/08/2015 09:13, charles wrote:
In article , Andrew Mawson
wrote:
"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good
as other fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

Ask the expert what the others put in that the supermarkets don't
and you will have your answer.

Has anyone (eg a motoring organisation) done any comparisons on mpg
and general smoothness of engine (difficult to quantify the
latter!) for various brands of supermarket fuel versus various
brands from named fuel chains (Jet, Esso, Shell, Texaco etc)?

The only time I've noticed a slightly smoother engine (though no
significant improvement in mpg) was when I accidently filled up
with premium diesel instead of standard diesel - and a lot of that
may have been wishful thinking to compensate for paying through the
nose for the "gold plated" fuel :-) I wouldn't have minded quite
so much but I'd driven past loads of garages on my journey, holding
out for the cheapest garage that I happened to pass, and then when
I found a cheap garage I went and used the premium holster instead
of the standard one. Shame they aren't different colours (eg black
versus black with yellow stripes, or something like that).

Many years back, the father of my then current girl friend was
adamant that he would only use Shell, and never BP as his Rover 110
went so much better on it. I wasn't popular when I pointed out that
(at the time) they shared a delivery fleet and the same tanker
delivered both so they were the same.

Point of the story - it's very subjective and the judgement is
coloured by preconceptions.

Like the Austin/Morris arguement

The Morris / Austin argument was also fuelled by having differing
ranges of accessories.

The most amusing car I saw from BMC was the Vanden Plas - 1100! The
owners of course swore it was faster, more economical, built better,
etc...


Same thing in the TV field there was a Dynatron just a standard BRC
chassis like their lowly brethren but it had a nice "cabinet"

Apparently they had or once had the Royal Warrant to the Queen who
supposedly had one at Buck palace....

According to the Which? survey on tv at the time, the HMV version was far
less reliable that the Fergusson. Only difference was the cabinet.

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 02:35:40 -0700, therustyone wrote:

might depend on the car's sophistication. A quality engine will monitor
pinking and adjust the timing and fuel ratio to optimise burning with
the better quality (petrol anyway) it finds. An older car will just be
set to run on the worst fuel around.

Most modern cars will go down from a base map, if knock's detected.
But most are set to a 95RON base map. They won't go up from there.

Yes. Makes not a scrap of difference on my BMW using 97/8 RON to either
the performance or economy. When I first got it I did pretty exhaustive
tests on MPG using both.

--
*Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Brian-Gaff" wrote in message
...
I heard a talking head the other day saying that as supermarket fuel is
bought on something called the spot market, it can vary, and is often
quite old and thus its octane value can be depleted.

Perhaps someone can tell me how old fuel loses its octane value?

The more volatile components evaporate off faster.

Storage of fuel surely has to be nailed by now.

It isn't necessarily economically viable to store
it like that with the cheapest spot market crap.

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill

On 21/08/2015 10:50, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

However a car adjusted to run on low grade fuel either by fixed design
or automatically will still run better on better fuel.



Why?

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Same thing in the TV field there was a Dynatron just a standard BRC
chassis like their lowly brethren but it had a nice "cabinet"

But the 'nice cabinet' often made room for a larger and better loudspeaker
and maybe even facing forward. Rather than the tiny ones most sets used -
often facing to the side.

--
*In some places, C:\ is the root of all directories *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
The most amusing car I saw from BMC was the Vanden Plas - 1100! The
owners of course swore it was faster, more economical, built better,
etc...

Might well have been better built in at least some ways. As it's often
interior trim that gives the impression of good or bad build. And the VDP
was considerably different from base models in this respect.

The A Series engine came in power outputs ranging from about 30-75 bhp
depending on version. And the output was quoted in the handbook - so easy
enough to see if it had more power than a similar looking version.

--
*Where there's a will, I want to be in it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 21/08/2015 13:08, Rod Speed wrote:


"Brian-Gaff" wrote in message
...
I heard a talking head the other day saying that as supermarket fuel
is bought on something called the spot market, it can vary, and is
often quite old and thus its octane value can be depleted.

Perhaps someone can tell me how old fuel loses its octane value?

The more volatile components evaporate off faster.

It isn't just that. Many modern fuel mixes are slightly hygroscopic and
once there is some water in it various esters can form. The upshot is
that old fuel does not evaporate to leave absolutely no residue.

The ethanol content is particularly problematic in this respect.

Storage of fuel surely has to be nailed by now.

It isn't necessarily economically viable to store
it like that with the cheapest spot market crap.

Even with stabilisers longer term you would need to keep it sealed under
nitrogen to prevent gradual slow oxidation of certain components -
especially when stored in a rusty steel tank.

Most of the stuff you find on the web about long term fuel storage is
written by deranged survivalists who are nutty as fruit cakes.

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as
other fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

Bill




--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:29:52 +0100, NY wrote:

The most amusing car I saw from BMC was the Vanden Plas - 1100! The
owners of course swore it was faster, more economical, built better,
etc...

Yes, bog-standard 1100 with VdP extras like wooden dashboard and Rolls
Royce type radiator grille.

Some of the ADO16s had single carbs, some twin. Riley/MG were definitely
twin, Austin/Morris definitely single. I seem to recall my brother's
Wolseley 1300 having single. I think Austin/Morris lagged in going from
1100 to 1300, too.

Ah, here y'go - the tangled history...
http://www.aronline.co.uk/blogs/cars...1300/the-cars-
bmc-11001300-development-history/

I can never remember - was it the Austin or Morris version that had the
ribbon speedo? Which of those two was regarded as the base version and
which was one step up?

Both base, just in slightly different ways.

Anyway, the VdP ADO16 was never anywhere NEAR as amusing as the VdP
1500... The posh Allegro.

On Friday, August 21, 2015 at 12:14:30 PM UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 20/08/2015 22:19, Bill Wright wrote:

An expert that I trust says that supermarket fuel isn't as good as other
fuel. He says it's all down to the additives.

Comments?

There are tiny differences in the additive packages with the
supermarkets cutting corners a bit but all the fuel is to the British
standard and only the tetchiest of engines will see any difference.

It really only matters when they put the entirely the wrong additive
package in as happened in 2007 and again in 2014 to a lesser extent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_U..._contamination

Petrol engines really don't like the *diesel* additive package.

FWIW I am happy to buy supermarket fuel at the best price I can get.

--

I use mostly Tesco diesel. I might chuck a bottle of fuel injector cleaner in the tank once in a while, since some of the brand fuels say they include such an additive.
Simon.