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Default OT. EUSSR Brexit.

In article , Adrian
writes
On Tue, 26 May 2015 11:16:20 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You really think the EU would be foolish enough to allow the UK to
leave but keep the many benefits of being in a free trade area
without also the responsibities?


They have allowed Norway, Switzerland etc to have those without joining
the EU. And the EU doesnt get any say on that stuff anyway.


And those countries who do get some of the rights without joining also
have to share the responsibilities too. Without the same voting rights.


Norway is an EEA member.
Switzerland is an EFTA member.
Both are Shengen members.

UKIP don't want the UK to "seek to remain" EEA or EFTA members, and the
UK has never been a Shengen country.

Membership of any one of those three would inherently include free
movement of people, exactly as EU membership currently does.

"Schengen Area is comprised of twenty-two European Union member states
as well as four European Free Trade Association member states (EFTA is
an association of ten Fair Trade importers in nine European countries
(Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, The Netherlands, Spain,
Switzerland and the United Kingdom). EFTA was established informally in
1987 by some of the oldest and largest Fair Trade importers. It gained
formal status in 1990. EFTA is based in the Netherlands and has Dutch
Articles of Association.)"
Shengen goes further - with a single centralised Shengen visa for non-EU
nationals, too.

There are 5 different types of Shengen visa
--
bert
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In article ,
bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
The main one which UKIP and all the other racists hate. Free
movement of people between countries.


I think most sensible people would think free movement of peolpe
between countries would be problematic.


Really? You want to stop Brits retiring to Spain, etc?


You seem to have a very simple binary brain yes no, on off, black white,
no immigration unfettered immigration. No in between.


Oh but I don't. Just trying to find out what Mr Dave actually means.

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On Wed, 27 May 2015 21:16:46 +0100, bert wrote:

There is a subtle difference between freedom of movement of people and
freedom of movement of workers.


You're suggesting that Polish plumbers should have more right to move to
the UK than British pensioners should have to move to Spain? That'll be a
popular view in this group...
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On Wed, 27 May 2015 21:14:46 +0100, bert wrote:

Perhaps I am odd, then. Expecting a fair trial for everyone.
Regardless.


Quite.

Perhaps TNP would like to explain exactly which of the convention rights
it is that he takes exception to, and why.


And what about responsibilities? Is it not everyone's responsibility if
they wish to claim their rights also to accept the responsibility of
being basically law abiding? Which take priority?


Mmm. You really don't quite understand the concept, do you?

There is already plenty of law that says "Don't do list of naughty
things, or you will be punished".

Human rights legislation is intended to prevent PEOPLE from GOVERNMENTS.
It includes lots of caveats about where things (loss of liberty,
f'rinstance) which might otherwise be breaches of human rights are
perfectly OK where the thing...
clears throat, quotes from EConvHR
"is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society
in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-
being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the
protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and
freedoms of others."

Seems fairly clear to me.
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On Wed, 27 May 2015 21:33:51 +0100, bert wrote:

Shengen goes further - with a single centralised Shengen visa for non-EU
nationals, too.


There are 5 different types of Shengen visa


Oh, well spotted.

http://www.schengenvisainfo.com/schengen-visa-types/
Transit, Tourist, Student, Business, Working.

See if you can guess the differences...

Here's one thing that isn't a difference... All of them are issued for
the entire Schengen area and apply to the whole Schengen area.


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On Wednesday, 27 May 2015 17:13:20 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 26 May 2015 14:38:31 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
The main one which UKIP and all the other racists hate. Free
movement of people between countries.

I think most sensible people would think free movement of peolpe
between countries would be problematic.

Really? You want to stop Brits retiring to Spain, etc?


No, where have I said that ?


Two sentences above?


I've said nothing about restricting brits or anyone else from retiring in/to Spain.
What I did say was that sensible people would find such a thing can cause problems. But if you can;t see a problem does that make you more or less knowledgable.


Leting the jimmy savilles, Gary Glitters of the world go anywhere
they wish doing whatever they wish.

Now that's convoluted thinking even for you...


Gary Glitter went to various places to live how he wanted. I do NOT
think it ok that a choild sex offender should be able to go to another
country adn aduse children the way he did here. I believ kids should be
protected from such people throught the world not just in London or
wherever.


Do you find it acceptable that he (allegedly of course) went to cambodia
and thialand for sex with children


I think sex with children unacceptable in any country. Regardless if by a
national or vistor.

But WTF has that to do with immigration?


GG emigrated didn't he ? he was one of those that left the UK to live elsewhere others have done that too. We don;t want to import crimminals of any sort do we.
'Free'movement implies just that, which is why I'd like restrictions on such things. I do NOT think those with criminal convictions should be allowed to skip countiries and get away with it when the same laws apply in those countries.



I wouldn;t weant IS's to set up here in the UK and I don't care how
un PC that makes me, and it doesn't make me a racist either a
cultraslist perhaps but that's to complex for most people to
understand.

If what you mean is the idea of an Islamic state in the UK, it's
laughable.


Why it's happened small scale not as IS's but with FGM practices forced
marriages or do I have to agree that these soprt of practices are
allowed so I ncna think of myself as PC. I'd rather people called me a
racist for reporting a black person for commiting FGM.


Not quite sure why you consider it racist or non PC to report a crime?


I don't, why do you consider it OK for free movement of people without restrictions of what they do or what they do in those countries.

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On Wednesday, 27 May 2015 21:17:06 UTC+1, bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Well so it was until you made the blanket statement that anyone who had
or wanted restricted immigration was ipso facto a racist.


I was referring to political parties whose prime objective is to stop
immigration. At any cost.

I don't think any p0litical; party has proposed that. Not even the BNP.
Can you enlighten us please?
--
bert


I was wondering that UKIP wanted restrictions just like any sensible person or country should do. He's never mentioned sending hios german wife back home has he or anyone else.
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In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
I think most sensible people would think free movement of peolpe
between countries would be problematic.

Really? You want to stop Brits retiring to Spain, etc?


No, where have I said that ?


Two sentences above?


I've said nothing about restricting brits or anyone else from retiring
in/to Spain.


So that's nothing to do with free movement of people?


What I did say was that sensible people would find such a
thing can cause problems.


Absolutely anything can cause problems. Winning the lottery, for example.

But if you can;t see a problem does that make
you more or less knowledgable.


I'm not claiming anything.

--
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On Thursday, 28 May 2015 14:18:22 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
I think most sensible people would think free movement of peolpe
between countries would be problematic.

Really? You want to stop Brits retiring to Spain, etc?

No, where have I said that ?

Two sentences above?


I've said nothing about restricting brits or anyone else from retiring
in/to Spain.


So that's nothing to do with free movement of people?


Why should it be. Although a freind from spain say it cuses problems in her
old village where a lot of properties have be bought by the English and those living there all their lives can't afford to buy them and how that has changed some towns in Spain.
No problems there at all the same as when she came to London and rents a property that other londerers can't afford, so again no problem at all.
The free movement of people doesn't cause any problems does it.
She'd like to buy a flat in London but can;t afford it any moore than here sister can afford to buy a house in spain, same problem niether can afford it because of the rise in the price of properties partially due to migration.




I'm not claiming anything.


Neither am I but I know that free movement i.e movement without any restrictions does cause problems. Which is why countries like Australia and america DO impose restrictions and those are for (usually) very good reasons.


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In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Although a freind from spain say it cuses problems in her old village
where a lot of properties have be bought by the English and those living
there all their lives can't afford to buy them and how that has changed
some towns in Spain.


If that's the basis of your argument, you'll have to stop UK residents
buying holiday homes in the UK too, then.

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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On Thu, 28 May 2015 16:40:13 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Although a freind from spain say it cuses problems in her old village
where a lot of properties have be bought by the English and those
living there all their lives can't afford to buy them and how that has
changed some towns in Spain.


If that's the basis of your argument, you'll have to stop UK residents
buying holiday homes in the UK too, then.


Or, indeed, anybody but "locals" from buying anywhere rural. Or, come to
that, in three-quarters of London or several other city centres.

Who ever promised that people had some right to live in an area just
because their parents and/or grandparents happened to live there?

Would the world really be better or would it be immeasurably worse if
nowhere ever _changed_...? Hell, take that logic to extreme, we'd all
still be living in caves in the Rift Valley.
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On 28/05/15 16:56, Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 16:40:13 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Although a freind from spain say it cuses problems in her old village
where a lot of properties have be bought by the English and those
living there all their lives can't afford to buy them and how that has
changed some towns in Spain.


If that's the basis of your argument, you'll have to stop UK residents
buying holiday homes in the UK too, then.


Or, indeed, anybody but "locals" from buying anywhere rural. Or, come to
that, in three-quarters of London or several other city centres.

Who ever promised that people had some right to live in an area just
because their parents and/or grandparents happened to live there?

Would the world really be better or would it be immeasurably worse if
nowhere ever _changed_...? Hell, take that logic to extreme, we'd all
still be living in caves in the Rift Valley.

I can think of some people here who would be entirely suited to that.

Blaming the bad hunting on last years chief as well probably.



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the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.
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On Thu, 28 May 2015 17:58:59 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

How about, if a house isn't your primary residence you get to pay double
council-tax.


Mr : My primary residence is London.
Mrs : But my primary residence is the Cotswolds.
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On Thu, 28 May 2015 20:23:07 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

How about, if a house isn't your primary residence you get to pay
double council-tax.


Mr : My primary residence is London.
Mrs : But my primary residence is the Cotswolds.


Mmmmmight allow that if each can provide evidence that they have
separate jobs that might justify such residence. E.g. he has a job in
London and she is running a boutique in Winchcombe. Maybe.


So people who don't work can't have a primary residence?
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"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Although a freind from spain say it cuses problems in her old village
where a lot of properties have be bought by the English and those living
there all their lives can't afford to buy them and how that has changed
some towns in Spain.


If that's the basis of your argument, you'll have to stop UK residents
buying holiday homes in the UK too, then.


There might be something in *that*, too.

How about, if a house isn't your primary residence you get to pay
double council-tax.


Makes no sense when holiday houses use a lot less of the council
infrastructure.



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"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Adrian
wrote:

On Thu, 28 May 2015 17:58:59 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

How about, if a house isn't your primary residence you get to pay double
council-tax.


Mr : My primary residence is London.
Mrs : But my primary residence is the Cotswolds.


Mmmmmight allow that if each can provide evidence that they have
separate jobs that might justify such residence. E.g. he has a job in
London and she is running a boutique in Winchcombe. Maybe.


Doesnt allow for those who have retired and who choose to live apart.

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"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Adrian
wrote:

On Thu, 28 May 2015 20:23:07 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

How about, if a house isn't your primary residence you get to pay
double council-tax.


Mr : My primary residence is London.
Mrs : But my primary residence is the Cotswolds.


Mmmmmight allow that if each can provide evidence that they have
separate jobs that might justify such residence. E.g. he has a job in
London and she is running a boutique in Winchcombe. Maybe.


So people who don't work can't have a primary residence?


No, can't have a secondary residence.


Makes no sense when the retired are just those who can live
where they like and aren't restricted on that by their job.

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"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Simon263
wrote:

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Although a freind from spain say it cuses problems in her old village
where a lot of properties have be bought by the English and those
living
there all their lives can't afford to buy them and how that has
changed
some towns in Spain.

If that's the basis of your argument, you'll have to stop UK residents
buying holiday homes in the UK too, then.

There might be something in *that*, too.

How about, if a house isn't your primary residence you get to pay
double council-tax.


Makes no sense when holiday houses use a lot less of the council
infrastructure.


Not the point. The point is to discourage second residences which are
empty most of the time.


Makes no sense to discourage those and encourage the
alternative, paid for holiday accommodation instead.

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"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Huge
wrote:

On 2015-05-28, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Adrian
wrote:

On Thu, 28 May 2015 17:58:59 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

How about, if a house isn't your primary residence you get to pay
double
council-tax.

Mr : My primary residence is London.
Mrs : But my primary residence is the Cotswolds.

Mmmmmight allow that if each can provide evidence


Not sure I want to live in the world you're proposing.


Neither am I. I'm suggesting a hand-waving solution to the problem of
places with large numbers of second homes, to the extent that the
locals are impacted. Most likely my suggestion is unworkable.


Certainly is unworkable.

But it is a real problem.


For which there is no viable solution.

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On 24/05/2015 16:52, harryagain wrote:
"Nightjar .me.uk" "cpb"@ insert my surname here wrote in message
...
On 24/05/2015 16:30, harryagain wrote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...oost-jobs.html


This would be the Owen Patterson who is a hard line Eurosceptic, and who
addressed the London Swinton Circle, an extreme right wing group that
advocates mass deportations, isolationism and capital punishment. Seems
like your kind of person Harry.


What's wrong with any of that?


Would you agree to be deported if there was a referendum in favour of
"deporting extremists"?


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On 28/05/2015 18:51, Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 17:58:59 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

How about, if a house isn't your primary residence you get to pay double
council-tax.


Mr : My primary residence is London.
Mrs : But my primary residence is the Cotswolds.


HMRC: Where are you registered to vote? Where are you registered with a
Doctor? What contact address do your bank and utilities use? If you have
children, where do they go to school?

Those are questions they already use to determine the principle place of
residence for CGT purposes when none has been declared.

--
Colin Bignell
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On Thursday, 28 May 2015 16:40:34 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Although a freind from spain say it cuses problems in her old village
where a lot of properties have be bought by the English and those living
there all their lives can't afford to buy them and how that has changed
some towns in Spain.


If that's the basis of your argument, you'll have to stop UK residents
buying holiday homes in the UK too, then.


Why ?


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On Thursday, 28 May 2015 18:51:53 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
On Thu, 28 May 2015 17:58:59 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

How about, if a house isn't your primary residence you get to pay double
council-tax.


Mr : My primary residence is London.
Mrs : But my primary residence is the Cotswolds.


So you pay tax on the properties you own. You pay for yuor house you're misses pays for hers, simples.
Of course selling both your home(s) to say 'google' or perhaps FIFA might enable you to pay NO tax on those homes but still own them in efect because you'll be paying xxxx rent to live in them then get a tax rebate perhaps even some form of housing benifit too.

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On Thursday, 28 May 2015 21:04:40 UTC+1, Simon263 wrote:
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Although a freind from spain say it cuses problems in her old village
where a lot of properties have be bought by the English and those living
there all their lives can't afford to buy them and how that has changed
some towns in Spain.

If that's the basis of your argument, you'll have to stop UK residents
buying holiday homes in the UK too, then.


There might be something in *that*, too.

How about, if a house isn't your primary residence you get to pay
double council-tax.


Makes no sense when holiday houses use a lot less of the council
infrastructure.


Why not just pay the tax on every 'home' you own irrespective of how many times you live there. What's wrong with that.
If I buy a months travel card I get charge for a month whether or not I use it.
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In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 28 May 2015 16:40:34 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Although a freind from spain say it cuses problems in her old
village where a lot of properties have be bought by the English and
those living there all their lives can't afford to buy them and how
that has changed some towns in Spain.


If that's the basis of your argument, you'll have to stop UK residents
buying holiday homes in the UK too, then.


Why ?


Sometimes wonder if you understand what you post...

--
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Dave Plowman London SW
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 28 May 2015 16:40:34 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Although a freind from spain say it cuses problems in her old
village where a lot of properties have be bought by the English and
those living there all their lives can't afford to buy them and how
that has changed some towns in Spain.

If that's the basis of your argument, you'll have to stop UK residents
buying holiday homes in the UK too, then.


Why ?


Sometimes wonder if you understand what you post...


It's just what he does when even he realises he can't answer the point.

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