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Simon Avery
 
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Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?

Hello All

Refitting bathroom soonish, in early planning stages now.

Entire hot water to bathroom supplied from ground floor (it's a
bungalow) indirect HW tank via 22mm copper. I want a thermostatic
shower with a decent flow, a bath that doesn't take a week to fill and
a WC & Washbasin.

I need a shower pump for the shower, otherwise it just won't work -
the showerhead being higher than the HW tank (although CW feeder above
HW tank is a couple of feet higher, so may get a dribble - but not
enough to have a decent shower).

Question: Can I just put the shower pump on the incoming 22mm HW feed
to the entire bathroom, or is that a bad idea to have it triggering
for washbasin and bath and it should just go on the Shower feed?

BTW - CW - unsure if going to put mains or use a feed off the CW tank
in loft. Mains pressure ain't great, so prolly better to run a 22mm
down and avoid washing-machine induced scalds? It's on mains atm, but
I'm worried that a thermostatic shower will need more CW flow than it
can supply. (Weedy 15mm mains, so not only crap pressure, crap flow
also)

Am I right in thinking that as it's unlikely more than one thing is
going to be using CW at any 1 time in the bathroom then a single feed,
with bits taken off it when needed won't have a big impact on flow, or
do lots of joints and corners seriously slow things up?

Recommendations for a reliable and reasonably powerful shower pump?
(Not done one before)

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

  #2   Report Post  
Grunff
 
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Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?

Simon Avery wrote:

Hello All


Hi Simon.


I need a shower pump for the shower, otherwise it just won't work -
the showerhead being higher than the HW tank (although CW feeder above
HW tank is a couple of feet higher, so may get a dribble - but not
enough to have a decent shower).


Something to bear in mind. The pump has flow switches to detect
flow and switch on. In order to get enough water through these
to tuen on the pump you will need some head. I think mine
recommended a minimum head of 40cm.


Question: Can I just put the shower pump on the incoming 22mm HW feed
to the entire bathroom, or is that a bad idea to have it triggering
for washbasin and bath and it should just go on the Shower feed?


I was tempted to do this, because we're on a private supply and
our 'mains' is only about 1bar. But I decided against it because
of the noise - pumps aren't quiet, and while I'm happy to live
with the noise while showeing, I wouldn't want it on every time
I open a tap.



BTW - CW - unsure if going to put mains or use a feed off the CW tank
in loft. Mains pressure ain't great, so prolly better to run a 22mm
down and avoid washing-machine induced scalds? It's on mains atm, but
I'm worried that a thermostatic shower will need more CW flow than it
can supply. (Weedy 15mm mains, so not only crap pressure, crap flow
also)

Am I right in thinking that as it's unlikely more than one thing is
going to be using CW at any 1 time in the bathroom then a single feed,
with bits taken off it when needed won't have a big impact on flow, or
do lots of joints and corners seriously slow things up?


I suppose the only scenario when this might be a problem is if
you flush the loo then turn on the shower - you'll have low flow
until the loo has finished filling up. We have this situation
with the loo + basin, because that's not pumped.


Recommendations for a reliable and reasonably powerful shower pump?
(Not done one before)


Stuart Granger seems to be the one recommended by everyone in
the know. Ours isn't, it's a 'NewTeam Varispeed' from City
Plumbing. It's two years old, and has given pretty good service
every day for the last 2 years.

--
Grunff

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Roger Mills
 
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Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?


"Simon Avery" wrote in message
...
Hello All

Refitting bathroom soonish, in early planning stages now.

Entire hot water to bathroom supplied from ground floor (it's a
bungalow) indirect HW tank via 22mm copper. I want a thermostatic
shower with a decent flow, a bath that doesn't take a week to fill and
a WC & Washbasin.

I need a shower pump for the shower, otherwise it just won't work -
the showerhead being higher than the HW tank (although CW feeder above
HW tank is a couple of feet higher, so may get a dribble - but not
enough to have a decent shower).

Question: Can I just put the shower pump on the incoming 22mm HW feed
to the entire bathroom, or is that a bad idea to have it triggering
for washbasin and bath and it should just go on the Shower feed?

BTW - CW - unsure if going to put mains or use a feed off the CW tank
in loft. Mains pressure ain't great, so prolly better to run a 22mm
down and avoid washing-machine induced scalds? It's on mains atm, but
I'm worried that a thermostatic shower will need more CW flow than it
can supply. (Weedy 15mm mains, so not only crap pressure, crap flow
also)

Am I right in thinking that as it's unlikely more than one thing is
going to be using CW at any 1 time in the bathroom then a single feed,
with bits taken off it when needed won't have a big impact on flow, or
do lots of joints and corners seriously slow things up?

Recommendations for a reliable and reasonably powerful shower pump?
(Not done one before)

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/


I see no reason why you shouldn't use your shower pump to feed the bath and
basin as well as the shower. Most shower pumps are double ended - with hot
one end and cold the other. In any event, you should take the cold feed from
the header tank rather than the mains - because the shower mixer will work
best when the hot and cold water pressures are more or less equal.

Many shower pumps have a flow switch which switches on the motor when flow
is detected. This, of course, relies on getting *some* flow by gravity when
you open a tap or turn on the shower. As long as the water level in the
header tank is a reasonable height above the shower, this should be ok. [The
height of the hot water cylinder is not relevant, because the flow is being
driven by the pressure from the header tank].

Hopefully, others will advise on specific shower pumps. I bought mine many
years ago as part of a kit with the shower mixer etc. Didn't think of using
it for the bath and basin though!

A final thought - if you use the cold tap on the basin for drinking (e.g.
filling a Teasmade) you may prefer to keep the mains feed to this rather
than getting it via the header tank.

Roger


  #4   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 12:11:23 GMT, (Simon
Avery) wrote:

Hello All

Refitting bathroom soonish, in early planning stages now.

Entire hot water to bathroom supplied from ground floor (it's a
bungalow) indirect HW tank via 22mm copper. I want a thermostatic
shower with a decent flow, a bath that doesn't take a week to fill and
a WC & Washbasin.

I need a shower pump for the shower, otherwise it just won't work -
the showerhead being higher than the HW tank (although CW feeder above
HW tank is a couple of feet higher, so may get a dribble - but not
enough to have a decent shower).

Question: Can I just put the shower pump on the incoming 22mm HW feed
to the entire bathroom, or is that a bad idea to have it triggering
for washbasin and bath and it should just go on the Shower feed?

BTW - CW - unsure if going to put mains or use a feed off the CW tank
in loft. Mains pressure ain't great, so prolly better to run a 22mm
down and avoid washing-machine induced scalds? It's on mains atm, but
I'm worried that a thermostatic shower will need more CW flow than it
can supply. (Weedy 15mm mains, so not only crap pressure, crap flow
also)

Am I right in thinking that as it's unlikely more than one thing is
going to be using CW at any 1 time in the bathroom then a single feed,
with bits taken off it when needed won't have a big impact on flow, or
do lots of joints and corners seriously slow things up?

Recommendations for a reliable and reasonably powerful shower pump?
(Not done one before)


Given the situation, I would look at a chunky Stuart Turner like a
Monsoon 3 bar twin and run a 22mm cold service from the CW tank to it.

Is the shower going over the bath? If so, you could get an all
singing all dancing thermostatic mixer to do both. If they are
separate, then a thermostatic mixer for each or a thermostatic mixer
for shower and simple mixer for bath. You could even have separate
bath taps for that matter.

I wouldn't bother including the basin in the equation.

If possible, try to mount the pump low - e.g. floor of airing
cupboard, although it's generally not super critical.

If you can put in a Surrey flange to the top of the HW cylinder, it's
a good plan, then the bathroom will be completely independent of
anything happening in the rest of the house.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
  #5   Report Post  
Grunff
 
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Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?

Grunff wrote:

Stuart Granger seems to be the one recommended by everyone in the know.


Or even Stuart Turner...

--
Grunff



  #6   Report Post  
Simon Avery
 
Posts: n/a
Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?

Andy Hall wrote:

Hello Andy

Refitting bathroom soonish, in early planning stages now.


AH| Given the situation, I would look at a chunky Stuart Turner
AH| like a Monsoon 3 bar twin and run a 22mm cold service from
AH| the CW tank to it.


k, That's two votes for that one then. I didn't know about the twin. I
don't think I need the CW pumped though.

AH| Is the shower going over the bath? If so, you could get an


No, different. Wifey likes showers, I like baths - so I get a nice
deep bath that's long enough so my knees don't get cold but only if
she gets a nice shower...

There's only one place a shower can realistically go, and that's in a
recess which is exactly 1200mm wide by 900mm deep. (Existing block
walls) Somewhat relieved to learn that stock trays of exactly that
size are available.

AH| I wouldn't bother including the basin in the equation.


Nah, that's a non-luxury feature. Shower and bath are more important.

AH| If possible, try to mount the pump low - e.g. floor of
AH| airing cupboard, although it's generally not super critical.


Can do, there's a nice section of run in the underfloor void that's
perfect, or will be when I get power to it.

AH| If you can put in a Surrey flange to the top of the HW
AH| cylinder, it's a good plan, then the bathroom will be
AH| completely independent of anything happening in the rest of
AH| the house.


Hmm, googling...

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

  #7   Report Post  
Simon Avery
 
Posts: n/a
Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?

Grunff wrote:

Hello Grunff

I need a shower pump for the shower, otherwise it just
won't work - the showerhead being higher than the HW tank
(although CW feeder above HW tank is a couple of feet
higher, so may get a dribble - but not enough to have a
decent shower).


G| Something to bear in mind. The pump has flow switches to
G| detect flow and switch on. In order to get enough water
G| through these to tuen on the pump you will need some head. I
G| think mine recommended a minimum head of 40cm.


Ah - I hadn't considered that, good warning! Not a problem though -
the HW tank is ~80cms above the floor and the pipe run is ~30cms below
that, so I think I'll fit the pump down there.

Question: Can I just put the shower pump on the incoming
22mm HW feed to the entire bathroom, or is that a bad idea
to have it triggering for washbasin and bath and it should
just go on the Shower feed?


G| I was tempted to do this, because we're on a private supply
G| and our 'mains' is only about 1bar. But I decided against it
G| because of the noise - pumps aren't quiet, and while I'm
G| happy to live with the noise while showeing, I wouldn't want
G| it on every time I open a tap.


Another very good point and one I hadn't considered. Flow with current
arrangement to bath is adequate, so I'm inclined not to bother then -
just pump the shower section.

--
Simon Avery, Dartmoor, UK
uk.d-i-y FAQ: http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/

  #8   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:43:39 GMT, (Simon
Avery) wrote:

Andy Hall wrote:

Hello Andy

Refitting bathroom soonish, in early planning stages now.


AH| Given the situation, I would look at a chunky Stuart Turner
AH| like a Monsoon 3 bar twin and run a 22mm cold service from
AH| the CW tank to it.


k, That's two votes for that one then. I didn't know about the twin. I
don't think I need the CW pumped though.


If you are going to run both (in effect) from the CW tank since it
supplies the HW cylinder, then a twin pump is really the right way to
do it because the flows will be better balanced. If the cold is
derived from the mains, it could be all over the place. OK, the
thermostatic valve will help with maintaining the temperature, but the
overall flow will vary. Having the whole thing separated from the
mains, pumping both, will give a good and balanced result.


AH| Is the shower going over the bath? If so, you could get an


No, different. Wifey likes showers, I like baths - so I get a nice
deep bath that's long enough so my knees don't get cold but only if
she gets a nice shower...


I think that you could reasonably connect both the shower and the bath
to the pump so that you will the bath more quickly. It didn't seem
worth running up the pump for the basin.



There's only one place a shower can realistically go, and that's in a
recess which is exactly 1200mm wide by 900mm deep. (Existing block
walls) Somewhat relieved to learn that stock trays of exactly that
size are available.


That's a bit of luck. They are normally 1cm too large for the space.


AH| I wouldn't bother including the basin in the equation.


Nah, that's a non-luxury feature. Shower and bath are more important.

AH| If possible, try to mount the pump low - e.g. floor of
AH| airing cupboard, although it's generally not super critical.


Can do, there's a nice section of run in the underfloor void that's
perfect, or will be when I get power to it.


I'd be a little careful with that. The void under a floor can get
pretty cold so that one should consider insulation to avoid heatloss
and potential freezing. OTOH, the motor of the pump will generate
heat in operation and that needs to be allowed to escape.



AH| If you can put in a Surrey flange to the top of the HW
AH| cylinder, it's a good plan, then the bathroom will be
AH| completely independent of anything happening in the rest of
AH| the house.


Hmm, googling...


There's a variety here.

http://www.andyplumb.co.uk/asp/catal....asp?catval=19

Essex flanges are said to be a bit better because the fitting is
totally separate. However, they need more courage to fit to the
cylinder.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
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OldScrawn
 
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Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?

Think about what will happen if the pump leaks. I've had two seal failures, one
after a couple of years, one after 3 months, and between these have twice had
screw connectors shake themselves loose. These used to soak the cardboard boxes
of stuff in the loft before dribbling down and staining ceilings. My pump now
sits in a small cold water header tank, with a drain connected to the normal
header overflow.
  #10   Report Post  
Capitol
 
Posts: n/a
Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?

Pump leakage is a valid point, in 10 years, I've only had a few minor
weeps, but my pump is visible and sits in a small tray for this reason. Our
new 3 bar pump is a Watermill, brass construction, lower cost than a ST.
source kbb2000) My experience has been that getting sufficient water flow
(10-20L/m) can be a problem even over short distances. Using 28mm piping as
much as possible and both Essex and Suffolk flanges in parallel from the HW
tank has been the best IME. The pump needs to be as close to the tank as
reasonably possible. This approach supplies pumped H & C water to the whole
house. IME pumps are noisy devices and best used only when necessary. If the
pump is enabled by a one operation timed switching device, then it is only
used as and when necessary and turns itself off. Over long distances( say
100'), the hot water wastage is very excessive unless 15mm piping is used or
the water is circulated around a lagged loop( increases effective HW tank
capacity). BTW, I investigated the local water supply flow rate and found a
variation between 5-10L/m according to the time of day! Worst at around 6pm
Regards
Capitol





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Christian McArdle
 
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Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?

I need a shower pump for the shower, otherwise it just won't work -
the showerhead being higher than the HW tank


The height of the HW tank is totally irrelevent. The only influences are the
height of the water level in the header tank and the bore and effective
length of the pipework. (Effective length includes penalties for elbows and
tees).

It is very useful to have the pump for the bath tap. You are right not to
want it on the basin, though. Can you replumb the basin to before the pump?

(although CW feeder above HW tank is a couple of feet higher, so
may get a dribble - but not enough to have a decent shower).


This is another reason to install bath pumping. On mine, I found the low
head coupled with the double check valves made starting the pump on shower
to be unreliable. However, it was easy to nudge it by blipping the bath tap,
without needing an ugly and expensive "negative head" upgrade for the pump,
which usually consists of yet another decaying green tangle cord from the
ceiling.

I had a system just like you are considering, with mains cold and a single
impellor on the hot side for bath and shower only. However, you might want
the separate cold feed if your mains are that bad and use a twin impellor
pump. You may need to seriously increase the size of your cold water header
tank to ensure you don't run out.

Am I right in thinking that as it's unlikely more than one thing is
going to be using CW at any 1 time in the bathroom then a single feed,
with bits taken off it when needed won't have a big impact on flow, or
do lots of joints and corners seriously slow things up?


One feed will be fine. If pumped, 15mm won't be too much of a disaster and
will even get hot water quicker. I suggest buying a proper pipe bender.
Avoid elbows unless absolutely necessary. Flowed bends are cheaper (if
you've already got the tool), allow greater freedom in choice of angles,
drop much less pressure, allow more flow and are less noisy and prone to
hammer.

Recommendations for a reliable and reasonably powerful shower
pump? (Not done one before)


Everyone recommends Stuart Turner. However, I had a Showerforce single
impellor for 99 quid on the hardest water imaginable. No problems, even
after two years.

Christian.


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Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?

My experience has been that getting sufficient water flow (10-20L/m)
can be a problem even over short distances. Using 28mm piping as much
as possible and both Essex and Suffolk flanges in parallel from the HW
tank has been the best IME.


You may find this is because the hot water cylinder has poor connection with
the header tank. Ensure the feed to the header tank is at least 22mm and has
only flowed bends over a short distance and no bore reducing valves. If this
is done, you might not even need a flange at all, let alone two.

Christian.


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Capitol
 
Posts: n/a
Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?

It is plumbed in 28mm, with a run of 10' and a head of 8'. The problem is to
get hot water out of the tank at a sufficient speed. I haven't seen 28mm
Surrey flanges as a readily available item, have you?
Regards
Capitol

Christian McArdle wrote in message
...
My experience has been that getting sufficient water flow (10-20L/m)
can be a problem even over short distances. Using 28mm piping as much
as possible and both Essex and Suffolk flanges in parallel from the HW
tank has been the best IME.


You may find this is because the hot water cylinder has poor connection

with
the header tank. Ensure the feed to the header tank is at least 22mm and

has
only flowed bends over a short distance and no bore reducing valves. If

this
is done, you might not even need a flange at all, let alone two.

Christian.




  #14   Report Post  
Christian McArdle
 
Posts: n/a
Default Shower pump, whole bathroom?

It is plumbed in 28mm, with a run of 10' and a head of 8'. The problem is
to
get hot water out of the tank at a sufficient speed.


What sort of speed do you need? I had 22mm to the bottom of the tank and
then no flange, just a run of 22mm to the pump from the top fitting. It
filled a bath in not much over a minute. Are you sure it isn't just a slow
pump? What sort of flow rate do you get? Do you get air in the water/pump?

Christian.


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