[Johny B Good[_2_]]

In response to a discussion regarding data backup strategies that
arose within the "Damaged USB Drive" thread started by Graeme (News),
I got to thinking about retreiving the backup data that had remained
locked away in a DAT cartridge tape collection for the last 15 or more
years.

This came about because of the mention for the need to transfer such
backup data (or, more properly, archived data) onto modern media every
decade or so in order to keep the backup store viable as the orginal
equipment and media inevitably become obsoleted by technological
progress.

It occurred to me that I had such an archive stranded on obsolete
media (DAT carts) that was in danger of becoming irretrievable since I
was relying upon a single DAT drive with which to perform the data
restoration.

I mentioned this in my last posting to the thread. For the sake of
continuity, I'll simply quote the final 3 paragraphs to get you up to
speed.

STARTQUOTE:
==========================================

"If you'd read the whole of my reply, you'll already be aware that I'm
looking to resurrect a system to set up the DAT drive in so I can
transfer the backups from the 2 and 4GB tape cart collection. As it
happens, the SCSI adapter card I have stored with the tape drive is
actually a PCI adapter so I don't have to assemble a retro system just
for the sake of tape drive itself.

However, it has been such a long time since I last used the tape
drive in any system, I'm not sure what backup software was used or
even whether I had it running under win2k. I think I was still using
win95OSR2 at the time I purchased the tape drive and I'm pretty
certain I initially started off with an ISA adapter.

The PCI one may simply be a 'later PCI' version adapter that looked
like a suitable substitute for the original ISA adapter, one that may
not have actually been used with the tape drive before - I just can't
recall. It looks like I'll be gathering the sacrificial livestock and
studying the incantations once more. :-("

==========================================
ENDQUOTE:

Well, as it turns out, it seems I initially used the DAT tapes using
Central Point Software's dos based backup under windows for
workgroups, followed by Cheyenne Backup running in windows 95osr2. I
don't believe I ran any backup software using the DAT drive after
upgrading to win2k SP4 in April 2004.

A quick 'squint' at the tapes shows backup dates from 1997 to 1999. A
more thorough look at all of the tapes may show a wider date range
when I can haul the tape boxes down from the filing cabinet to allow
easier access.

What prompts me to post to a new thread is the fact that I've
actually managed to make enough progress sufficient to prove the
viability of the tapes and the drive.

I managed to restore a whole 221MB's worth and it only took just over
quarter of an hour with the data transfer rate reaching a dizzying
18MB per minute - Yes, that's right a whole 18MB per _minute_ you can
see why I ditched the DAT for backup jobs just before the end of the
millenium.

It turned out that dealing with the business of setting up the SCSI
interface was the least troublesome aspect, no rituals involving
sacrificial livestock nor arcane incantations were required. No, the
real problem, after discovering that the backup software wouldn't run
in win2k, was to engineer a restore from an old Partition Magic disk
image of the most recent win95 system disk that had been running on
almost identical hardware and then run through the driver update
processes due to the slightly altered system resources allocations.

Very early on, the system locked up because I'd forgotten about the
need to boot into safe mode so I could delete the now redundent
software FSB overclocking utility reference from the startup folder
(the A-Open version of the almost identical Jetway BX440 MoBo didn't
require such software since it could be overclocked in the cmos
configuration. The FSB overclock utility just simply screwed the
multiplier settings up, hence the crash).

Eventually I was able to install the driver software for the Intel
Pro 10/100 PCI card fitted into this build and got to face the horrors
of endless reboots involved in updating the networking protocols in a
win95 system. A problem compounded by the fact that the TCP/IP
protocol does _NOT_ get added by default, yet the redundent IPX/SPX
netware protocol and the NETBUI protocol do get installed by default.

I managed to find the bug free voodoo driver CD straight away and got
the graphics driver updated quite swiftly after I had completed my
first test of the tape system. It would have been nice to have had
that sorted out before running the test but the big priority was to
prove the tape system before investing any more time and effort on
such niceties as a viewable screen.

It looks like I've got myself a bit of a data retrieval project to
keep me occupied for the next few weeks or so. Windows doesn't see the
tape drive as something it can handle by itself. I'm relying on the
backup software to handle the tape drive operations which leaves me to
the tender mercies of the user interface and limitations of the backup
software.

I had a google for (free) backup software that was capable of working
with DAT storage drives in windows 2000 but the descriptions I looked
at for the more promising software failed to mention DAT or tape
drives of any sort so I didn't bother trying any of them out.

I might have another look now that I know the hardware is still
functioning but that does mean I'll be having to faff about between
OSes to try them all out. Any advice in this regard will be more than
welcome.
--
J B Good

[Chris French]

In message , Johny B Good
writes
In response to a discussion regarding data backup strategies that
arose within the "Damaged USB Drive" thread started by Graeme (News),
I got to thinking about retreiving the backup data that had remained
locked away in a DAT cartridge tape collection for the last 15 or more
years.

snip

It looks like I've got myself a bit of a data retrieval project to
keep me occupied for the next few weeks or so.

snip

Good luck :-)

Can't help wondering if there is actually any data that you will
actually want on them though.
--
Chris French

[Scott M]

Chris French wrote:
In message , Johny B Good

It looks like I've got myself a bit of a data retrieval project to
keep me occupied for the next few weeks or so.

Good luck :-)

Can't help wondering if there is actually any data that you will
actually want on them though.

I was going say that. To my mind, most data becomes irrelevant before
the hardware it's stored on becomes obsolete (and certainly before the
hardware has broken down or worn out.)

The small %age of data that does want keeping tends to get shunted
between systems during upgrades.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

[Johny B Good[_2_]]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 09:51:28 +0000, Chris French
wrote:

In message , Johny B Good
writes
In response to a discussion regarding data backup strategies that
arose within the "Damaged USB Drive" thread started by Graeme (News),
I got to thinking about retreiving the backup data that had remained
locked away in a DAT cartridge tape collection for the last 15 or more
years.

snip

It looks like I've got myself a bit of a data retrieval project to
keep me occupied for the next few weeks or so.

snip

Good luck :-)

Can't help wondering if there is actually any data that you will
actually want on them though.

Me too! :-)

However, the only way to know what's worth keeping and what's simply
a backup of data that has been migrated dozens of times onto the
latest incarnation of the NW 3.11/3.12 fileserver now running as a
NAS4Free server box (single 300MB ESDI full height 5 1/4 inch
noisemaker to a set of 2, 3 and 2x 4TB silent 1 inch high 3 1/2 inch
drives), is to restore the data to seperate folders and take a gander
at what was there.

It looks like most of the tapes were 90 metre 2GB carts with a few 60
metre 1.3GB and a quantity of 120 metre 4GB carts. I'm probably
looking at a total data set size nearer the 120Gb mark rather than the
worst case 320GB ballpark estimate with probably less than 10% of that
being of any value over and above what was preserved on the fileserver
throughout its many reincarnations and disk capacity upgrades over the
past two decades.

I've pulled the 10.2GB HDD with the win2k install out of the drive
bay and swapped the 40GB HDD with the win95 install into its place to
tidy the box up. I've also pulled out the redundent Teac 32 speed
CDROM from between the tape drive in the bay below and the CD
re-writer in the bay above to not only give more ventillation space to
the tape drive but also to reduce the weight of the box to make it a
little more managable.

My next step is to transfer the large plastic media storage drawers
from off the top of the filing cabinet so I can more easily sort
through the tapes. There are two series of backups, one using Central
Point's backup software and an earlier set created using the ancient
PC Tools backup software (probably in windows 3.11 or just MSDOS
6.22).

I should be able to run the PC Tools software from DOS7 by restarting
windows in dos mode for just this purpose. I don't think there'll be
any need to 'dual boot' to cover this contingency.

As far as I can recall, both backup programmes relied on creating
catalogue databases stored in the working folder keyed to each tape
volume serial number created at format time.

I think it's just a case of getting the backup software to look at
the last backup made in each series to read the catalogue stored on
each successive tape session to rebuild the database. I think a backed
up database was created and added to each tape on every session but
I'm not sure of the exact details of this mechanism. I'll have plenty
of time to find out though.
--
J B Good

[Johny B Good[_2_]]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 10:31:33 +0000, Scott M
wrote:

Chris French wrote:
In message , Johny B Good

It looks like I've got myself a bit of a data retrieval project to
keep me occupied for the next few weeks or so.

Good luck :-)

Can't help wondering if there is actually any data that you will
actually want on them though.

I was going say that. To my mind, most data becomes irrelevant before
the hardware it's stored on becomes obsolete (and certainly before the
hardware has broken down or worn out.)

The small %age of data that does want keeping tends to get shunted
between systems during upgrades.

Well, as I've already mentioned to Chris, that's exactly the
situation I'm anticipating. The thing is, I'm curious to see what
'long lost' software of historical interest may reside within that
collection (and any other surprise items long since thought vanished
off the face of the planet).

Once I've processed the tapes (and sanitised, if any, dubious
content), I'll be able to offer the tapes and the kit to Museums or
retro computing enthusiasts, possibly via ebay to get some financial
recompense for my not inconsiderable investment in this technological
folly. At the very least, it's all going to be disposed of one way or
another - it does use up a considerable chunk of storage space
compared to a large thumb drive's worth of modern storage.
--
J B Good

[Jeremy Nicoll - news posts[_2_]]

Johny B Good wrote:

Once I've processed the tapes (and sanitised, if any, dubious content),
I'll be able to offer the tapes and the kit to Museums or retro computing
enthusiasts, possibly via ebay to get some financial recompense for my not
inconsiderable investment in this technological folly.

If the DAT drives haven't been used for years I wouldn't be surprised if
they've got a bit 'gummed up', for want of better words. Is any part of the
mechanism belt driven? Does anything need lubricated (and if so can you
actually get suitable lubricant to the right place)? If a tape jams or
breaks, is it possible to clear all the bits out of the drive?

If I were you, and if you have any, I'd spool some unused tapes back and
forth through the drives before you put a used tape in...


--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo id,
Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
escribió:

If the DAT drives haven't been used for years I wouldn't be surprised if
they've got a bit 'gummed up', for want of better words.

The most common fault with elderly DAT drives is perishing of the rubber
on the rollers. This usually results in any tape inserted being chewed
up rendering it useless.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[Johny B Good[_2_]]

On Fri, 21 Nov 2014 18:58:36 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

En el artículo id,
Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
escribió:

If the DAT drives haven't been used for years I wouldn't be surprised if
they've got a bit 'gummed up', for want of better words.

The most common fault with elderly DAT drives is perishing of the rubber
on the rollers. This usually results in any tape inserted being chewed
up rendering it useless.

Well, all valid concerns but I just assembled the kit and simply
shoved a tape cart into it and did a test recovery without any
hitches.

I guess I can count myself lucky in that any rubber used was a vast
improvement over the butyl rubber drive belts used in my even more
ancient Philips solenoid operated data cassette drives which simply
degraded into a gloopy mess about a decade ago.

I've since run another two or three carts through the drive, still
without any signs of distress so it looks like I'll be able to
complete my project after all.

I'm a little reluctant to carry on without some fettling of the PSU
and case ventillation slots to reduce the airflow noise from the PSU
fan which I'll try and replace with a less noisy one. It's a little on
the loud side as it stands, an issue that's of greater than usual
significance in view of the 2 to 3 hour run times for each restore job
hence the current hiatus in getting the project properly underway.

If I can examine the tape contents tables, I doubt I'll need to
restore more than a small fraction of the tapes anyway but, even so,
just scanning the tapes to rebuild the tape contents database is in
itself a protracted enough process so I think the time spent on
quietening the PC will be a worthwhile investment now that I've proved
the the DAT drive is still working ok.
--
J B Good

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo , Johny B
Good escribió:

Windows doesn't see the
tape drive as something it can handle by itself.

It should see it as physical device \\.\tape0

'wmic tapedrive list' at a command prompt will list tape drives
recognised by Windows.

I had a google for (free) backup software that was capable of working
with DAT storage drives in windows 2000

Windows Backup will work fine with DAT drives with nothing else
required.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

[Johny B Good[_2_]]

On Thu, 27 Nov 2014 16:21:53 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:

En el artículo , Johny B
Good escribió:

Windows doesn't see the
tape drive as something it can handle by itself.

It should see it as physical device \\.\tape0

'wmic tapedrive list' at a command prompt will list tape drives
recognised by Windows.

Windows 95 osr2 doesn't recognise it as a drive it can use directly
for data storage in the same way it can for hard disk drives and
floppy disk drives. Afaicr, it shows as a Python 5ACxxxx (different
from its orginal name since I flashed the drive's firmware to make it
compatible with an audio dat tape player program).

Any data storage functionality is left entirely to suitable third
party backup software to handle.


I had a google for (free) backup software that was capable of working
with DAT storage drives in windows 2000

I didn't have win2k compatable backup software to try it with, hence
my reverting to win95 to let me recreate the original scenario where I
could guarantee access to my old backups.

Unfortunately, I can't recall how it showed itself in win2k's device
manager when I did briefly try it out under that OS, swiftly
discovering the lack of win2k compatability with the backup software.

Windows Backup will work fine with DAT drives with nothing else
required.

The question is though, will it recognise the backup format used by
the Cheyenne backup program? I'd have to swap the win2k HDD back in to
test that assertion and I've set the PC to one side for the moment to
make room for some paying jobs. I'd like to perform some fettling to
reduce the PSU fan noise (quieter fan, opened up vent slots, both main
case and the PSU case) before I resume the project in earnest.

I'll check out the win2k situation when I next see a slackening off
in demand for my services and once more find myself with time on my
hands.
--
J B Good

[Mike Tomlinson]

En el artículo , Johny B
Good escribió:

The question is though, will it recognise the backup format used by
the Cheyenne backup program?

Almost certainly not. You're on a loser if you expect tapes written by
one backup utility to be readable by those written using another. Even
different versions of the same backup software can refuse to read tapes
written by an earlier version.

You're really best off sticking with the backup provided by Windows -
that way, if you wipe and reinstall the OS, you know you'll be able to
restore the tapes using the software included with Windows.

Or use something ubiquitous like tar, which will mean you can use just
about any OS to read the tapes.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")