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Strange PC problem.
I have two PCs both dual boot XP/Win 7, (on separate HDs) with more or
less the same progs on them. One not much used these days. The not much used one failed some time ago after doing a Win7 update. After re-booting it re-set at the 'configuring your PC' stage, and re-set each time it got there. Wouldn't boot to the safe condition either and all attempts at repair failed. So I bought a new HD and cloned it from the working machine Win7 HD. That worked fine. Until yesterday - the first time it had been used in a couple of weeks. It again decided to do an update and failed in exactly the same way. The XP side still works ok, so I'm wondering what's going on? For some reason it has no restore points saved - even although there are ones on the HD it was cloned from. -- *Why do overlook and oversee mean opposite things? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Strange PC problem.
On 01/04/2014 11:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have two PCs both dual boot XP/Win 7, (on separate HDs) with more or less the same progs on them. One not much used these days. The not much used one failed some time ago after doing a Win7 update. After re-booting it re-set at the 'configuring your PC' stage, and re-set each time it got there. Wouldn't boot to the safe condition either and all attempts at repair failed. So I bought a new HD and cloned it from the working machine Win7 HD. That worked fine. Until yesterday - the first time it had been used in a couple of weeks. It again decided to do an update and failed in exactly the same way. The XP side still works ok, so I'm wondering what's going on? My guess is that there's some hardware in there that is not properly supported by Win 7. Some issue with the driver maybe. Have you started in safe mode? For some reason it has no restore points saved - even although there are ones on the HD it was cloned from. You can turn off save points. You're not supposed to clone HDDs from machines with different hardware. Are these two absolutely identical in every detail? |
Strange PC problem.
In article ,
GB wrote: Until yesterday - the first time it had been used in a couple of weeks. It again decided to do an update and failed in exactly the same way. The XP side still works ok, so I'm wondering what's going on? My guess is that there's some hardware in there that is not properly supported by Win 7. Some issue with the driver maybe. Nothing has been changed in ages. Have you started in safe mode? As I said, it won't. For some reason it has no restore points saved - even although there are ones on the HD it was cloned from. You can turn off save points. I've not done that. You're not supposed to clone HDDs from machines with different hardware. Are these two absolutely identical in every detail? No. But it worked ok before. The 'main' PC which is in use every day started out with a cloned HD from the other machine. I do have my own full price Win7 and XP - it's just that cloning the HD so much quicker than loading in everything from scratch. -- *If I throw a stick, will you leave? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Strange PC problem.
On 01/04/14 12:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , You're not supposed to clone HDDs from machines with different hardware. Are these two absolutely identical in every detail? No. But it worked ok before. The 'main' PC which is in use every day started out with a cloned HD from the other machine. I do have my own full price Win7 and XP - it's just that cloning the HD so much quicker than loading in everything from scratch. It might be worth running memtest86 from a CD. Windows 7 may be harder on the RAM than XP, or may be using an area that XP doesn't normally need due to its smaller footprint. |
Strange PC problem.
On 01/04/2014 11:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have two PCs both dual boot XP/Win 7, (on separate HDs) with more or less the same progs on them. One not much used these days. The not much used one failed some time ago after doing a Win7 update. After re-booting it re-set at the 'configuring your PC' stage, and re-set each time it got there. Wouldn't boot to the safe condition either and all attempts at repair failed. You have tried running a bootable memory tester from a CD? So I bought a new HD and cloned it from the working machine Win7 HD. That worked fine. Until yesterday - the first time it had been used in a couple of weeks. It again decided to do an update and failed in exactly the same way. The XP side still works ok, so I'm wondering what's going on? For some reason it has no restore points saved - even although there are ones on the HD it was cloned from. I have seen something like it once or twice on Win7, but have always had the fallback of a restore point available before the failed update. I got a bargain fast portable secondhand because it had run into this Win7 update gotcha. I never did figure out the root cause but now always make sure I have the backups and restore points needed to unpick a bad update. If you can get in it is worth looking to see what the datestamps of recent updates were on the machine that is still working. Most annoying is the "Mickeysoft Tuesday automatic we've force closed everything rebooted your machine which sometimes reinstates itself" :( Cloned disks even in nominally identical PCs can be a source of trouble are you sure that all hardware and drivers are exactly matched? -- Regards, Martin Brown |
Strange PC problem.
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote: Cloned disks even in nominally identical PCs can be a source of trouble are you sure that all hardware and drivers are exactly matched? I realise that - but it worked ok for several years before. -- *All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Strange PC problem.
On 01/04/2014 12:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Until yesterday - the first time it had been used in a couple of weeks. It again decided to do an update and failed in exactly the same way. The XP side still works ok, so I'm wondering what's going on? My guess is that there's some hardware in there that is not properly supported by Win 7. Some issue with the driver maybe. Nothing has been changed in ages. Maybe a new driver in the update? Have you started in safe mode? As I said, it won't. So you did, sorry. For some reason it has no restore points saved - even although there are ones on the HD it was cloned from. You can turn off save points. I've not done that. Something has stopped it saving. You're not supposed to clone HDDs from machines with different hardware. Are these two absolutely identical in every detail? No. But it worked ok before. The 'main' PC which is in use every day started out with a cloned HD from the other machine. I do have my own full price Win7 and XP - it's just that cloning the HD so much quicker than loading in everything from scratch. I understand why you cloned. I had this problem ages ago with WinXP when I got several totally identical machines for my office. I set the first one up then cloned the disc onto the others. This caused no end of problems, all fixed by re-running the WinXP install on each machine. |
Strange PC problem.
On Tue, 01 Apr 2014 13:00:31 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Martin Brown wrote: Cloned disks even in nominally identical PCs can be a source of trouble are you sure that all hardware and drivers are exactly matched? I realise that - but it worked ok for several years before. Even Dell managed to 'install a boobytrap' when the lazy cnuts simply recycled an image made on an intel cpu'd system for use on an AMD cpu'd one. It was winXP and was fine until SP3 (or a post SP3 update) fell foul of the 'boobytrap' resulting in either a lockup or complete failure to boot. Luckily, it could still be booted in safe mode allowing the cpu related driver files to be de-referenced in the registry allowing it to boot normally and have said drivers properly removed to eliminate any future issues. When you simply clone an OS onto another PC for the sake of convenience, this sort of issue is the price you might find yourself paying. Don't expect too much sympathy from the good folk in this NG if you're not prepared to at least attempt a repair install. -- Regards, J B Good |
Strange PC problem.
In article ,
Johny B Good wrote: On Tue, 01 Apr 2014 13:00:31 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , Martin Brown wrote: Cloned disks even in nominally identical PCs can be a source of trouble are you sure that all hardware and drivers are exactly matched? I realise that - but it worked ok for several years before. Even Dell managed to 'install a boobytrap' when the lazy cnuts simply recycled an image made on an intel cpu'd system for use on an AMD cpu'd one. It was winXP and was fine until SP3 (or a post SP3 update) fell foul of the 'boobytrap' resulting in either a lockup or complete failure to boot. Luckily, it could still be booted in safe mode allowing the cpu related driver files to be de-referenced in the registry allowing it to boot normally and have said drivers properly removed to eliminate any future issues. This is Win7. The cloned XP side is fine on both machines. When you simply clone an OS onto another PC for the sake of convenience, this sort of issue is the price you might find yourself paying. Don't expect too much sympathy from the good folk in this NG if you're not prepared to at least attempt a repair install. I've not had much success in attempting a repair using the original installation discs when this happened last time. I could, of course, simply start afresh. But it's a lot of work. I'll probably just re-clone from the working machine and switch off the updater. -- *How does Moses make his tea? Hebrews it.* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Strange PC problem.
On 01/04/2014 16:56, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
When you simply clone an OS onto another PC for the sake of convenience, this sort of issue is the price you might find yourself paying. Don't expect too much sympathy from the good folk in this NG if you're not prepared to at least attempt a repair install. I've not had much success in attempting a repair using the original installation discs when this happened last time. I could, of course, simply start afresh. But it's a lot of work. I'll probably just re-clone from the working machine and switch off the updater. It's not a lot of work to attempt a repair though, surely? Switching off the updater is a really bad idea unless you also remove this machine from the www. |
Strange PC problem.
In article ,
GB wrote: I've not had much success in attempting a repair using the original installation discs when this happened last time. I could, of course, simply start afresh. But it's a lot of work. I'll probably just re-clone from the working machine and switch off the updater. It's not a lot of work to attempt a repair though, surely? Switching off the updater is a really bad idea unless you also remove this machine from the www. Using the installation discs? I've got a good idea what will happen. ;-) -- *Happiness is seeing your mother-in-law on a milk carton Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Strange PC problem.
GB wrote:
My guess is that there's some hardware in there that is not properly supported by Win 7. Some issue with the driver maybe. CMOS battery flat? That could cause some hardware to reconfigure itself to defaults that then causes new drivers to be needed (eg HDD from PATA emulation to AHCI native-SATA mode). Theo |
Strange PC problem.
"GB" wrote in message ... On 01/04/2014 11:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: I have two PCs both dual boot XP/Win 7, (on separate HDs) with more or less the same progs on them. One not much used these days. The not much used one failed some time ago after doing a Win7 update. After re-booting it re-set at the 'configuring your PC' stage, and re-set each time it got there. Wouldn't boot to the safe condition either and all attempts at repair failed. So I bought a new HD and cloned it from the working machine Win7 HD. That worked fine. Until yesterday - the first time it had been used in a couple of weeks. It again decided to do an update and failed in exactly the same way. The XP side still works ok, so I'm wondering what's going on? My guess is that there's some hardware in there that is not properly supported by Win 7. Some issue with the driver maybe. Have you started in safe mode? For some reason it has no restore points saved - even although there are ones on the HD it was cloned from. You can turn off save points. You're not supposed to clone HDDs from machines with different hardware. Are these two absolutely identical in every detail? They don't have to be absolutely identical in every detail. |
Strange PC problem.
Gb spoke:
Switching off the updater is a really bad idea unless you also remove this machine from the www. Switching off the updater is a Good Idea! Just make sure you have decent AV and a firewall and don't use mikeysoft web & email apps, and it will be fine, and updates won't bork anything. |
Strange PC problem.
R C Nesbit wrote
Gb wrote Switching off the updater is a really bad idea unless you also remove this machine from the www. Switching off the updater is a Good Idea! Indeed, I only bother with service packs and even then wait for a long time before using them after they are released. Works fine. Just make sure you have decent AV and a firewall I just use the standard one and a NAT router. and don't use mikeysoft web & email apps, I use both of those and it still works fine. and it will be fine, Yep. and updates won't bork anything. Yep, that's the main reason I turn the updates off, the last thing I need is the system unusable due to a ****ed up update. |
Strange PC problem.
On Tue, 01 Apr 2014 16:56:48 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Johny B Good wrote: On Tue, 01 Apr 2014 13:00:31 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In article , Martin Brown wrote: Cloned disks even in nominally identical PCs can be a source of trouble are you sure that all hardware and drivers are exactly matched? I realise that - but it worked ok for several years before. Even Dell managed to 'install a boobytrap' when the lazy cnuts simply recycled an image made on an intel cpu'd system for use on an AMD cpu'd one. It was winXP and was fine until SP3 (or a post SP3 update) fell foul of the 'boobytrap' resulting in either a lockup or complete failure to boot. Luckily, it could still be booted in safe mode allowing the cpu related driver files to be de-referenced in the registry allowing it to boot normally and have said drivers properly removed to eliminate any future issues. This is Win7. The cloned XP side is fine on both machines. I was only using the Dell winXP case as an example of how just cloning can create such problems with future updates. Any modern Desktop OS (not just MS windows) is a very complex system with lots of opportunity for unforseen consequences to arise, if any element is misconfigured for whatever reason. When you simply clone an OS onto another PC for the sake of convenience, this sort of issue is the price you might find yourself paying. Don't expect too much sympathy from the good folk in this NG if you're not prepared to at least attempt a repair install. I've not had much success in attempting a repair using the original installation discs when this happened last time. It has to be said that a repair installation won't fix such problems in every case although, ignoringany malware and rootkit issues that may exist, it often does. When you've exhausted this remedy to no avail, the next step is usually a case of a scratch install (after making sure you've backed up all important user data beforehand) onto a freshly formatted partition. You might well elect to use a utility to completely over-write every sector on the drive with zeros to guarantee a genuinely fresh install (eliminating virus infected MBR boot sectors and rogue hidden partitions). If you're going to zero out the drive, it's best to use that feature in the drive maker's diagnostic utility since it will also verify whether or not there are any bad sectors which may have caused the problem in the first place. Likewise, run a memory test such as memtest86 to make certain there aren't any subtle memory faults which could also cause similar symptoms. Once you're happy with those basic diagnostic tests, you can have more confidence that a scratch install won't prove to be an utter waste of time as is so often the case when hardware faults are overlooked or ignored. I could, of course, simply start afresh. But it's a lot of work. I'll probably just re-clone from the working machine and switch off the updater. Or you can take the more pragmatic approach and avoid the problem that way. You may well have a pressing need to avoid the day or two's worth of time out of a busy work schedule of jobs that need the up time on that PC. It's a matter of priorities only you can decide. Obviously, it would be very nice if you could find a trivial, if rather obscure, fix to the problem at hand but it might take a lot of time researching potential fixes before finding, if ever, the quick fix you require. Sometimes, the pragmatic solution is to bite the bullet and run a scratch install (You can save an image of the system partition so you can revert back to the status quo, if this solution fails you). Alternatively, if you have a spare disk drive to hand[1], you can try the fresh install approach on a different disk and avoid the backup / restore cycle of a disk image in the event this fails or you feel the need to resume whatever activities you were running 'at the drop of a hat'. You can always continue with the new install task as and when you can spare the time and feel up to another session. [1] The disk only needs to be big enough for the OS and a small subset of apps to let you test whether this will prove to be an effective solution to your current problem. A 40 GB disk should suffice for this purpose (obviously, a larger disk will offer better performance if you have one available). -- Regards, J B Good |
Strange PC problem.
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
For some reason it has no restore points saved - even although there are ones on the HD it was cloned from. I'm fairly sure that some clone tools don't clone the restore checkpoint data, in the same way as they don't clone page files, hibernation files etc. -- Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own. Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply to replacing "aaa" by "284". |
Strange PC problem.
On 01/04/14 12:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , GB wrote: Until yesterday - the first time it had been used in a couple of weeks. It again decided to do an update and failed in exactly the same way. The XP side still works ok, so I'm wondering what's going on? My guess is that there's some hardware in there that is not properly supported by Win 7. Some issue with the driver maybe. Nothing has been changed in ages. Have you started in safe mode? As I said, it won't. For some reason it has no restore points saved - even although there are ones on the HD it was cloned from. You can turn off save points. I've not done that. You're not supposed to clone HDDs from machines with different hardware. Are these two absolutely identical in every detail? No. But it worked ok before. The 'main' PC which is in use every day started out with a cloned HD from the other machine. I do have my own full price Win7 and XP - it's just that cloning the HD so much quicker than loading in everything from scratch. IIRC I read something abut some MS update borking some machines...in The Register. Something to do with drivers that were no longer loadable IIRC - try a search there. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
Strange PC problem.
In article id,
Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote: "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: For some reason it has no restore points saved - even although there are ones on the HD it was cloned from. I'm fairly sure that some clone tools don't clone the restore checkpoint data, in the same way as they don't clone page files, hibernation files etc. Interesting. I'm going to do it again so will check and make sure it has a restore point recorded afterwards. It's only a few minutes work to whip out the drive and clone it. As opposed to the many hours it would take to install afresh and load in all the progs I use. -- *Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Strange PC problem.
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: No. But it worked ok before. The 'main' PC which is in use every day started out with a cloned HD from the other machine. I do have my own full price Win7 and XP - it's just that cloning the HD so much quicker than loading in everything from scratch. IIRC I read something abut some MS update borking some machines...in The Register. Something to do with drivers that were no longer loadable IIRC - try a search there. Don't suppose you remember if there was a fix? -- *60-year-old, one owner - needs parts, make offer Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Strange PC problem.
On 01/04/2014 18:51, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , GB wrote: I've not had much success in attempting a repair using the original installation discs when this happened last time. I could, of course, simply start afresh. But it's a lot of work. I'll probably just re-clone from the working machine and switch off the updater. It's not a lot of work to attempt a repair though, surely? Switching off the updater is a really bad idea unless you also remove this machine from the www. Using the installation discs? I've got a good idea what will happen. ;-) IIRC it will bring up the repair console. Or am I being vastly over-optimistic? In any case, this is a cloned drive, so it's not an enormous risk to try it out. |
Strange PC problem.
In article ,
GB wrote: IIRC it will bring up the repair console. Or am I being vastly over-optimistic? IMHO, yes. ;-) In any case, this is a cloned drive, so it's not an enormous risk to try it out. Apart from the time spent fiddling. I might as well just clone the original again. It has all the latest MS updates too. -- *Snowmen fall from Heaven unassembled* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Strange PC problem.
On 02/04/2014 14:02, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , GB wrote: IIRC it will bring up the repair console. Or am I being vastly over-optimistic? IMHO, yes. ;-) In any case, this is a cloned drive, so it's not an enormous risk to try it out. Apart from the time spent fiddling. I might as well just clone the original again. It has all the latest MS updates too. Did it have all the updates on when you cloned it last time? |
Strange PC problem.
In article ,
GB wrote: On 02/04/2014 14:02, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , GB wrote: IIRC it will bring up the repair console. Or am I being vastly over-optimistic? IMHO, yes. ;-) In any case, this is a cloned drive, so it's not an enormous risk to try it out. Apart from the time spent fiddling. I might as well just clone the original again. It has all the latest MS updates too. Did it have all the updates on when you cloned it last time? Yes. It original updates on auto. The cloned version was done several months ago and had done at least one update itself too. -- *Few women admit their age; fewer men act it. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Strange PC problem.
On 02/04/2014 15:27, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Apart from the time spent fiddling. I might as well just clone the original again. It has all the latest MS updates too. Did it have all the updates on when you cloned it last time? Yes. It original updates on auto. The cloned version was done several months ago and had done at least one update itself too. It'll be interesting to see whether the new cloned version works okay, as it may have on it whatever updates have caused the problem. Good luck. |
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