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Lost a Nuke?
Seems to have been an instant drop of about 1 GW sourced from nuclear
just after 0700 this morning. Capacity taken up by pumped and hydro. The EDF .pdf nuke status page hasn't been updated since the 21st. What has dropped off line? -- Cheers Dave. |
Lost a Nuke?
On 28/10/2013 10:37, Dave Liquorice wrote:
Seems to have been an instant drop of about 1 GW sourced from nuclear just after 0700 this morning. Capacity taken up by pumped and hydro. The EDF .pdf nuke status page hasn't been updated since the 21st. What has dropped off line? From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24699748#TWEET937307 "Both reactors in Dungeness power station's B units have been automatically shut down after power to the site was cut off. The site's own generators are providing power to the site" |
Lost a Nuke?
On 28/10/2013 10:50, Andrew May wrote:
On 28/10/2013 10:37, Dave Liquorice wrote: Seems to have been an instant drop of about 1 GW sourced from nuclear just after 0700 this morning. Capacity taken up by pumped and hydro. The EDF .pdf nuke status page hasn't been updated since the 21st. What has dropped off line? From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24699748#TWEET937307 "Both reactors in Dungeness power station's B units have been automatically shut down after power to the site was cut off. The site's own generators are providing power to the site" This has always been standard practice in the UK. Going off topic, I was amused in one of the "£100k house" programmes when the architect took the client off to a bleak, windswept bit of shingle littered with derelict boats. Just as I was thinking "Looks just like Dungeness", they announced that it was. It really can be bleak: I was once there for an interview in December, the rain was almost horizontal and all the seagulls were sheltering in the lee of the A-site carpark wall. Even in nice weather the foreshore looks positively Dickensian. |
Lost a Nuke?
On 28/10/13 10:37, Dave Liquorice wrote:
Seems to have been an instant drop of about 1 GW sourced from nuclear just after 0700 this morning. Capacity taken up by pumped and hydro. The EDF .pdf nuke status page hasn't been updated since the 21st. What has dropped off line? Dungeness IIRC, It lost the grid connection and shut down BBC have a story somewhere. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
Lost a Nuke?
Peoples brains probably.
Brian -- From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active "Dave Liquorice" wrote in message ll.co.uk... Seems to have been an instant drop of about 1 GW sourced from nuclear just after 0700 this morning. Capacity taken up by pumped and hydro. The EDF .pdf nuke status page hasn't been updated since the 21st. What has dropped off line? -- Cheers Dave. |
Lost a Nuke?
Well, that is rather odd, don't you think, surely as there are two of them,
they of all people should have enough spare power for themselves! Brian -- From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active "Andrew May" wrote in message ... On 28/10/2013 10:37, Dave Liquorice wrote: Seems to have been an instant drop of about 1 GW sourced from nuclear just after 0700 this morning. Capacity taken up by pumped and hydro. The EDF .pdf nuke status page hasn't been updated since the 21st. What has dropped off line? From http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24699748#TWEET937307 "Both reactors in Dungeness power station's B units have been automatically shut down after power to the site was cut off. The site's own generators are providing power to the site" |
Lost a Nuke?
On 28/10/2013 14:20, Brian Gaff wrote:
Well, that is rather odd, don't you think, surely as there are two of them, they of all people should have enough spare power for themselves! Brian Indeed, but what should they do with any power they generate, if they are off the grid? |
Lost a Nuke?
On 28/10/13 14:27, GB wrote:
On 28/10/2013 14:20, Brian Gaff wrote: Well, that is rather odd, don't you think, surely as there are two of them, they of all people should have enough spare power for themselves! Brian Indeed, but what should they do with any power they generate, if they are off the grid? that is teh problem. Each reactor takes about 40MW to stay up and safe even when shut down cooling pumps and the like. But the reactor decay heats is only about 2MW. and you can't run an AGR reactor at 10% of its output. 30% is about the minimum and its an 'unusual' regime. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
Lost a Nuke?
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 13:50:33 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/10/13 10:37, Dave Liquorice wrote: Seems to have been an instant drop of about 1 GW sourced from nuclear just after 0700 this morning. Capacity taken up by pumped and hydro. The EDF .pdf nuke status page hasn't been updated since the 21st. What has dropped off line? Dungeness IIRC, It lost the grid connection and shut down BBC have a story somewhere. Telegrope blames 'hurricane force winds' - I thought they hadn't turned up apart from in pulp fiction. Cheers Dave R |
Lost a Nuke?
On 28/10/13 15:12, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 13:50:33 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 28/10/13 10:37, Dave Liquorice wrote: Seems to have been an instant drop of about 1 GW sourced from nuclear just after 0700 this morning. Capacity taken up by pumped and hydro. The EDF .pdf nuke status page hasn't been updated since the 21st. What has dropped off line? Dungeness IIRC, It lost the grid connection and shut down BBC have a story somewhere. Telegrope blames 'hurricane force winds' - I thought they hadn't turned up apart from in pulp fiction. Well they have an they haven't. Round here there are signs that nasty little highly localised eddies or tornadoes have snapped trees. so it is possible that something has bitched a power line - and quite a big power line if the station was cut off. Cheers Dave R -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
Lost a Nuke?
On 28/10/13 15:12, David.WE.Roberts wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 13:50:33 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 28/10/13 10:37, Dave Liquorice wrote: Seems to have been an instant drop of about 1 GW sourced from nuclear just after 0700 this morning. Capacity taken up by pumped and hydro. The EDF .pdf nuke status page hasn't been updated since the 21st. What has dropped off line? Dungeness IIRC, It lost the grid connection and shut down BBC have a story somewhere. Telegrope blames 'hurricane force winds' - I thought they hadn't turned up apart from in pulp fiction. Cheers Dave R (Reuters) - The storm that swept across southern Britain on Monday morning caused nuclear power outages at the Dungeness B21 and B22 units, operator EDF Energy said. EDF Energy said on its website that both units, which have a capacity of 550 megawatts (MW) each, came off at 0744 GMT on Monday, adding that unit availability was expected to be zero for the next seven days. "The shutdown was weather-related. The plant reacted as it should and shut down safely," an EDF Energy spokeswoman said. The company said in a separate statement that both reactors were shut after power to the site was cut off. "The station is liaising with National Grid regarding returning the power supply," the statement said. A strong storm battered southern parts of England and Wales early on Monday, with wind speeds reaching almost 100 miles per hour, cutting power supplies to around 220,000 homes, forcing flight cancellations, disrupting trains and closing many roads and bridges. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
Lost a Nuke?
On 28/10/2013 15:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 28/10/13 14:27, GB wrote: On 28/10/2013 14:20, Brian Gaff wrote: Well, that is rather odd, don't you think, surely as there are two of them, they of all people should have enough spare power for themselves! Brian Indeed, but what should they do with any power they generate, if they are off the grid? that is teh problem. Each reactor takes about 40MW to stay up and safe even when shut down cooling pumps and the like. But the reactor decay heats is only about 2MW. and you can't run an AGR reactor at 10% of its output. 30% is about the minimum and its an 'unusual' regime. I thought the answer was to have a few supercapacitors to charge up .... :-) -- Rod |
Lost a Nuke?
On 28/10/13 19:25, polygonum wrote:
On 28/10/2013 15:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 28/10/13 14:27, GB wrote: On 28/10/2013 14:20, Brian Gaff wrote: Well, that is rather odd, don't you think, surely as there are two of them, they of all people should have enough spare power for themselves! Brian Indeed, but what should they do with any power they generate, if they are off the grid? that is teh problem. Each reactor takes about 40MW to stay up and safe even when shut down cooling pumps and the like. But the reactor decay heats is only about 2MW. and you can't run an AGR reactor at 10% of its output. 30% is about the minimum and its an 'unusual' regime. I thought the answer was to have a few supercapacitors to charge up .... :-) reuters are reporting EDF as saying 'sometime later ths week' -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
Lost a Nuke?
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 16:50:16 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
so it is possible that something has bitched a power line - and quite a big power line if the station was cut off. Or breakers in a grid switching center got upset by the surges caused by lines downstream being brought down and tripped Dungeness off. Once tripped off and Dungeness going into emergency shutdown it takes about a week to sort things out and bring it back online. I wonder if the operators at Dungeness could see the varying load and were aware of the possibilty of a trip or if the first thing they knew was AWOOGA! AWOOGA! SHUTDOWN! SHUTDOWN! causing them to spill their morning cup of tea? -- Cheers Dave. |
Lost a Nuke?
On Tuesday, October 29, 2013 1:02:31 AM UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 16:50:16 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: so it is possible that something has bitched a power line - and quite a big power line if the station was cut off. Or breakers in a grid switching center got upset by the surges caused by lines downstream being brought down and tripped Dungeness off. Once tripped off and Dungeness going into emergency shutdown it takes about a week to sort things out and bring it back online. If the reactor is tripped from full power then if you don't restart within a few hours Xenon135 builds up (it's not produced durectly by the fission reaction, but by decay of Iodine135, so production doesn't stop when fission stops) and absorbs so many neutrons you can't restart safely for several days (I don't have my textbook on reactor physics with me to give more detail...) If you get an unexpected trip it might take too long to assure yourself that it's safe to restart before the deadline. |
Lost a Nuke?
On 29/10/13 01:02, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 28 Oct 2013 16:50:16 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: so it is possible that something has bitched a power line - and quite a big power line if the station was cut off. Or breakers in a grid switching center got upset by the surges caused by lines downstream being brought down and tripped Dungeness off. Once tripped off and Dungeness going into emergency shutdown it takes about a week to sort things out and bring it back online. I wonder if the operators at Dungeness could see the varying load and were aware of the possibilty of a trip or if the first thing they knew was AWOOGA! AWOOGA! SHUTDOWN! SHUTDOWN! causing them to spill their morning cup of tea? AIUI there are automatic safety trips that would detect and undecurrent/overvoltage/overspeed and synch loss on the generators and essentially shut off the turbine steam before it revved beyiond safe limits. Thats a governor of sorts. Then one would expect te main breakers would blow isolating the station from the grid, at which point its on battery power and the diesels would start up, the rectorr would have been scrammed as part of the trip proecss, stopping te chain reaction instantly, and the only nucelar issues left aredeacy heat in te fuel rods, cibered by curculkatin te gas through te core. A cannot remember where AGRS use convection or pumped gas but they are very safe designs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance...cooled_reactor ah yes, forced water and gas coooling, so they need the pumps. At this point there will be steam to vent to prevent overpressures in the boilers, and probably some way to divert excess heat straight to the condensers without the turbines being involved. Thse will spin down and stop. Asyousay it takes time to get everything up and working again. restioing the grid to get off diesel power would be priority and take a day or two at most. Then they mighttae te opportunity to do spome minteneace work or cold refuelling (AGRS are usually refuelled at part power or cold) then spinning up and synching.. Anyway weve got 4 reactors down in three power plants - two at dungeness , and one each at two sites for regulatory inspections. Both will be back up by X mas.. EDF gives no firm date yet to restart dungeness. Presumably they will want to assess if any other damage ocurred. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
Lost a Nuke?
|
Lost a Nuke?
On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 09:58:00 +0000, Tim Streater
wrote: I expect JJ to try and dine out on what he would like to term an "emergency shutdown" for what was just SOP. Your bigotry is leading you to express opinions on my behalf that I myself have not expressed and would not express. JJ's "emergency" - nuke emergency - potential Chernobyl It's very interesting that you should say that, because it reveals a great deal about the way your mind works, and absolutely nothing about the way mine does. that is the sequence he'd like to establish in peoples' minds. Him and others, too. No, I'd just like it if you and others could learn to think in terms of logic rather than bigoted stereotypes. -- ================================================== ======= Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's header does not exist. Or use a contact address at: http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html |
Lost a Nuke?
I don't usually bother to post about spelling mistakes, but, like many
of your posts recently, this is getting ridiculously difficult to read - what exactly is your problem with using a spell checker? On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 13:34:48 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote: aredeacy heat in te fuel rods, cibered by curculkatin te gas through te core. -- ================================================== ======= Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's header does not exist. Or use a contact address at: http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html |
Lost a Nuke?
Java Jive wrote:
On Tue, 29 Oct 2013 09:58:00 +0000, Tim Streater wrote: I expect JJ to try and dine out on what he would like to term an "emergency shutdown" for what was just SOP. Your bigotry is leading you to express opinions on my behalf that I myself have not expressed and would not express. JJ's "emergency" - nuke emergency - potential Chernobyl It's very interesting that you should say that, because it reveals a great deal about the way your mind works, and absolutely nothing about the way mine does. that is the sequence he'd like to establish in peoples' minds. Him and others, too. No, I'd just like it if you and others could learn to think in terms of logic rather than bigoted stereotypes. You could always lead by example. -- Terry Fields |
Lost a Nuke?
On Monday, 28 October 2013 10:37:55 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
Seems to have been an instant drop of about 1 GW sourced from nuclear just after 0700 this morning. Capacity taken up by pumped and hydro. -- Cheers Dave. Where are you seeing this information? |
Lost a Nuke?
On 30/10/13 20:45, Steven Langdale wrote:
On Monday, 28 October 2013 10:37:55 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote: Seems to have been an instant drop of about 1 GW sourced from nuclear just after 0700 this morning. Capacity taken up by pumped and hydro. -- Cheers Dave. Where are you seeing this information? http://gridwatch.templar.co.uk ? both Dungeness reactors **** down, one scheduled to restart thuis weekm, the other next week. http://www.edfenergy.com/about-us/en...ant-status.pdf -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
Lost a Nuke?
Coming from you, that's prize hypocrisy. Why don't you see if you can
even start, in which case I'll happily follow. On 30 Oct 2013 18:10:41 GMT, Terry Fields wrote: You could always lead by example. -- ================================================== ======= Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's header does not exist. Or use a contact address at: http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html |
Lost a Nuke?
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes: the rectorr would have been scrammed as part of the trip proecss, stopping te chain reaction instantly, and the only nucelar issues left aredeacy heat in te fuel rods, cibered by curculkatin te gas through te core. A cannot remember where AGRS use convection or pumped gas but they are very safe designs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance...cooled_reactor ah yes, forced water and gas coooling, so they need the pumps. They can get away without pumps in an emergency - convection cooling by the gas alone can take away the power generated when shutdown. That's one of their key safety design features. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
Lost a Nuke?
On 30/10/2013 22:27, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher writes: the rectorr would have been scrammed as part of the trip proecss, stopping te chain reaction instantly, and the only nucelar issues left aredeacy heat in te fuel rods, cibered by curculkatin te gas through te core. A cannot remember where AGRS use convection or pumped gas but they are very safe designs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance...cooled_reactor ah yes, forced water and gas coooling, so they need the pumps. They can get away without pumps in an emergency - convection cooling by the gas alone can take away the power generated when shutdown. That's one of their key safety design features. Correct. And things happen relatively slowly with some thousands of tons of graphite to heat up. |
Lost a Nuke?
On Wed, 30 Oct 2013 13:45:55 -0700 (PDT), Steven Langdale wrote:
Seems to have been an instant drop of about 1 GW sourced from nuclear just after 0700 this morning. Capacity taken up by pumped and hydro. Where are you seeing this information? Interpreted from the plots on gridwatch, the 1 GW loss from Dungeness is still very visible in the weekly plot the pickup from pumped and hydro less so: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ Ooo, we have percentages now... -- Cheers Dave. |
Lost a Nuke?
Dave Liquorice wrote:
http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ Ooo, we have percentages now... Two decimal places seems excessive though (especially considering the fudge-factors for non-metered solar/wind/digester sources). |
Lost a Nuke?
On 30/10/13 22:36, newshound wrote:
On 30/10/2013 22:27, Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , The Natural Philosopher writes: the rectorr would have been scrammed as part of the trip proecss, stopping te chain reaction instantly, and the only nucelar issues left aredeacy heat in te fuel rods, cibered by curculkatin te gas through te core. A cannot remember where AGRS use convection or pumped gas but they are very safe designs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance...cooled_reactor ah yes, forced water and gas coooling, so they need the pumps. They can get away without pumps in an emergency - convection cooling by the gas alone can take away the power generated when shutdown. That's one of their key safety design features. Correct. And things happen relatively slowly with some thousands of tons of graphite to heat up. no, in fact they dont. An its not thousands, its hundreds at most. The reasons for the delays are more about the nuclear-chemical consequences of shutting down in a hurry. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
Lost a Nuke?
On 31/10/13 07:18, Andy Burns wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote: http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ Ooo, we have percentages now... Two decimal places seems excessive though (especially considering the fudge-factors for non-metered solar/wind/digester sources). The are no fudge factors. Just not everything is metered centrally. Gridwatch doesnt fudge. Renewable UK and DECC fudge. Gridwtach is an accurate report of *limited data*, not a 'guess' as to what the total data is. -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
Lost a Nuke?
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 31/10/13 07:18, Andy Burns wrote: Two decimal places seems excessive though (especially considering the fudge-factors for non-metered solar/wind/digester sources). The are no fudge factors. Just not everything is metered centrally. Gridwatch doesnt fudge. Renewable UK and DECC fudge. I didn't say you fudged, but you did say it was based on fudged data. |
Lost a Nuke?
On 31/10/2013 10:26, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/10/13 22:36, newshound wrote: On 30/10/2013 22:27, Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , The Natural Philosopher writes: the rectorr would have been scrammed as part of the trip proecss, stopping te chain reaction instantly, and the only nucelar issues left aredeacy heat in te fuel rods, cibered by curculkatin te gas through te core. A cannot remember where AGRS use convection or pumped gas but they are very safe designs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance...cooled_reactor ah yes, forced water and gas coooling, so they need the pumps. They can get away without pumps in an emergency - convection cooling by the gas alone can take away the power generated when shutdown. That's one of their key safety design features. Correct. And things happen relatively slowly with some thousands of tons of graphite to heat up. no, in fact they dont. An its not thousands, its hundreds at most. The reasons for the delays are more about the nuclear-chemical consequences of shutting down in a hurry. Well it is much slower than in a water reactor, partly because of the lower fuel rating and partly the greater mass of moderator in the UK plant. I don't have the figures for AGRs to hand, but the Wylfa core contains 3740 tonnes of graphite. The AGR core is the same height, but certainly quite a bit smaller in diameter. It must be close to a thousand tons. |
Lost a Nuke?
On 31/10/13 22:16, newshound wrote:
On 31/10/2013 10:26, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 30/10/13 22:36, newshound wrote: On 30/10/2013 22:27, Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , The Natural Philosopher writes: the rectorr would have been scrammed as part of the trip proecss, stopping te chain reaction instantly, and the only nucelar issues left aredeacy heat in te fuel rods, cibered by curculkatin te gas through te core. A cannot remember where AGRS use convection or pumped gas but they are very safe designs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance...cooled_reactor ah yes, forced water and gas coooling, so they need the pumps. They can get away without pumps in an emergency - convection cooling by the gas alone can take away the power generated when shutdown. That's one of their key safety design features. Correct. And things happen relatively slowly with some thousands of tons of graphite to heat up. no, in fact they dont. An its not thousands, its hundreds at most. The reasons for the delays are more about the nuclear-chemical consequences of shutting down in a hurry. Well it is much slower than in a water reactor, partly because of the lower fuel rating and partly the greater mass of moderator in the UK plant. I don't have the figures for AGRs to hand, but the Wylfa core contains 3740 tonnes of graphite. The AGR core is the same height, but certainly quite a bit smaller in diameter. It must be close to a thousand tons. I take it back. there is less graphite in the AGRS, but its still over 1000 tonnes per reactor:-( -- Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers. |
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