[asalcedo]

I have a Waterfront brass paper holder C240 in antique gold, cost new £160

Paper Holder - C240 | Waterfront Designer Bathrooms

with a worn out thread in the screwed union inside the ball between the bar parallel to the wall and the bar perpendicular to the wall.

I don't know the exact thread but I'll try to find out.

Since I am not familiar with tap and die sets, but I am willing to learn, what is the way to use a tap and die set to repair these threads?


If I use the same diameter as the original one, will I gain anything by rethreading?

If I use a smaller diameter in the male thread, then the female thread will be too big.

I have seen in You Tube that bolts with worn out thread are rethreaded successfully by using the same thread die.

Or do I have to use a thread repair kit like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQHRB2ElZJ0

Thanks,

Antonio

[Lee]

Personally I'd have gone for the polyester resin first, if the material
is soft enough to have worn the first time surely it will do so again?

[Martin Brown]

On 16/08/2013 14:55, asalcedo wrote:

I have a Waterfront brass paper holder C240 in antique gold, cost new
£160

Very expensive for something that should never wear out then!

'Paper Holder - C240 | Waterfront Designer Bathrooms'
(http://www.waterfrontbathrooms.com/b...er-holder-c240)

with a worn out thread in the screwed union inside the ball between the
bar parallel to the wall and the bar perpendicular to the wall.

Boggle! How did you wear it out?

My money would be on a filled epoxy repair.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

[[email protected]]

Firstly, I'm a little taken aback at spending £160 on a toilet roll holder!
And at that price, I would expect it to outlast 100 generations of Andrex puppies.

As it hasn't, I'd suspect it's made of monkey metal, and retheading will get you nowhere. Use epoxy.

[Phil L]

Martin Brown wrote:
On 16/08/2013 14:55, asalcedo wrote:

I have a Waterfront brass paper holder C240 in antique gold, cost new
£160

Very expensive for something that should never wear out then!



That's **** all, there's one here for £709, guess the op missed this when he
was looking for something to hang his **** roll on
http://snipurl.com/27mvrbp

[Nthkentman[_2_]]

"asalcedo" wrote in message ...


I have a Waterfront brass paper holder C240 in antique gold, cost new
£160

'Paper Holder - C240 | Waterfront Designer Bathrooms'
(http://www.waterfrontbathrooms.com/b...er-holder-c240)

with a worn out thread in the screwed union inside the ball between the
bar parallel to the wall and the bar perpendicular to the wall.

I don't know the exact thread but I'll try to find out.

Since I am not familiar with tap and die sets, but I am willing to
learn, what is the way to use a tap and die set to repair these
threads?


If I use the same diameter as the original one, will I gain anything by
rethreading?

If I use a smaller diameter in the male thread, then the female thread
will be too big.

I have seen in You Tube that bolts with worn out thread are rethreaded
successfully by using the same thread die.

Or do I have to use a thread repair kit like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQHRB2ElZJ0



For that price I'd send the ****er back to the manufacturers for replacement

[asalcedo]

Originally Posted by Martin Brown

On 16/08/2013 14:55, asalcedo wrote:

I have a Waterfront brass paper holder C240 in antique gold, cost new
£160

Very expensive for something that should never wear out then!

'Paper Holder - C240 | Waterfront Designer Bathrooms'
(Paper Holder - C240 | Waterfront Designer Bathrooms)

with a worn out thread in the screwed union inside the ball between the
bar parallel to the wall and the bar perpendicular to the wall.

Boggle! How did you wear it out?

My money would be on a filled epoxy repair.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

It is solid brass and brass is soft. I think someone over tightened it

It is coated with real gold, thus the higher price of the chrome version.

Can you please point me to the epoxy resin I should try.

Will it last long?

Thanks.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Sure it's not solid gold at that price?

Whatever. If the female thread has failed but the male one ok, a helicoil
repair would be the best way to go.

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[Bob H]

On 16/08/2013 16:21, asalcedo wrote:
Following up from my previous thread.

I am going to try and tap a 7/32" BSW countersunk screw 10 mm long

I have found the following dies:

'7/32 BSW dies'
(http://www.tap-die.com/contents/en-u..._BSW_dies.html)

'Rotagrip - 04) 7/32 x 24 BSW HSS Die 13/16\" Diameter'
(http://tinyurl.com/pzecw2y)

A couple of questions:

1. Which blank can I use?
2. I have a 25mm die holder from a metric tap and die set. Do I need to
get a 13/16" die holder for the dies above?

Thanks,

Antonio





What blank do you mean?

13/16ths equates to about 20m.
You might get away with using a 25 die holder, but you wont have much
adjustment. I'd be more inclined to get a smaller die holder to suit better.

[Bob H]

On 16/08/2013 17:17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Sure it's not solid gold at that price?

Whatever. If the female thread has failed but the male one ok, a helicoil
repair would be the best way to go.


In uPVC windows industry gold fittings were always brass coating ones,
but customers were always told that they were gold.

[Dave Liquorice[_2_]]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 15:28:37 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

Boggle! How did you wear it out?

Quite. Once in place nothing needs to unscrew on a regular basis
unless the design is wrong. ie the gap between inner face of ball on
the end of the arm and wall is too small to a allow a standard full
bog roll to simply slide on.

The other possibilty is that it's been installed the wrong way up so
the weight of the bog roll tends to unscrew the standoff bar from the
joint ball.

As for paying £160 for it, boggle again. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

[The Other Mike[_3_]]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 17:21:28 +0200, asalcedo
wrote:


Following up from my previous thread.

I am going to try and tap a 7/32" BSW countersunk screw 10 mm long

I have found the following dies:

'7/32 BSW dies'
(http://www.tap-die.com/contents/en-u..._BSW_dies.html)

'Rotagrip - 04) 7/32 x 24 BSW HSS Die 13/16\" Diameter'
(http://tinyurl.com/pzecw2y)

A couple of questions:

1. Which blank can I use?
2. I have a 25mm die holder from a metric tap and die set. Do I need to
get a 13/16" die holder for the dies above?

You can't buy countersink screw 'blanks'

Holding countersink screws and machining a new thread on them is not
straightforward so you need to machine from solid

What you are trying to do requires machine tools not a diestock and a die. At
the very least a lathe, preferably a milling machine as well to cut the slots
for the screw head. Think a minimum of 750 quid, a few months to learn, jigs
to hold the blanks and part machined screws and quite possibly a **** end
product.

A 13/16" die holder is needed for 13/16" diameter dies.



What is wrong with buying the as near as dammit 12 24 UNC screws off the shelf
at 60p a piece?


--

[The Other Mike[_3_]]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 16:05:15 +0100, "Nthkentman" wrote:

For that price I'd send the ****er back to the manufacturers for replacement

For that price I would have sent the wife back for replacement


--

[John Rumm]

On 16/08/2013 14:55, asalcedo wrote:

I have a Waterfront brass paper holder C240 in antique gold, cost new
£160

'Paper Holder - C240 | Waterfront Designer Bathrooms'
(http://www.waterfrontbathrooms.com/b...er-holder-c240)

with a worn out thread in the screwed union inside the ball between the
bar parallel to the wall and the bar perpendicular to the wall.

I don't know the exact thread but I'll try to find out.

Since I am not familiar with tap and die sets, but I am willing to
learn, what is the way to use a tap and die set to repair these
threads?


If I use the same diameter as the original one, will I gain anything by
rethreading?

Not really - that will clean up threads with minor damage or those that
are partly blocked with debris.

If I use a smaller diameter in the male thread, then the female thread
will be too big.

I have seen in You Tube that bolts with worn out thread are rethreaded
successfully by using the same thread die.

Normally if you have a machine screw fitting into a tapped hole, and the
hole has enlarged and the thread been damaged, you would redrill the
hole larger, and re-tap it one size up. Then use a large diameter bolt.

Or do I have to use a thread repair kit like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQHRB2ElZJ0

That works where the male thread is undamaged...

If you have a pair of threads where both sides are worn, then it becomes
harder to fix properly. An epoxy fix would be simpler (perhaps a metal
loaded one like JB Weld)

If you really want to go to town, then drill out the female thread, and
then turn down an insert so its a press fit into the hole. Fit that then
redrill and retap to the original spec. For the male bit either turn it
down, sleeve and re-thread it, or braise / silver solder onto it, turn
it to the major diameter, and then rethread it.

(this all assumes you have a lathe to hand!)




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[asalcedo]

Originally Posted by The Other Mike[_3_]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 17:21:28 +0200, asalcedo
wrote:


Following up from my previous thread.

I am going to try and tap a 7/32" BSW countersunk screw 10 mm long

I have found the following dies:

'7/32 BSW dies'
(7/32 BSW dies)

'Rotagrip - 04) 7/32 x 24 BSW HSS Die 13/16\" Diameter'
(Rotagrip - 04) 7/32 x 24 BSW HSS Die 13/16" Diameter)

A couple of questions:

1. Which blank can I use?
2. I have a 25mm die holder from a metric tap and die set. Do I need to
get a 13/16" die holder for the dies above?

You can't buy countersink screw 'blanks'

Holding countersink screws and machining a new thread on them is not
straightforward so you need to machine from solid

What you are trying to do requires machine tools not a diestock and a die. At
the very least a lathe, preferably a milling machine as well to cut the slots
for the screw head. Think a minimum of 750 quid, a few months to learn, jigs
to hold the blanks and part machined screws and quite possibly a **** end
product.

A 13/16" die holder is needed for 13/16" diameter dies.



What is wrong with buying the as near as dammit 12 24 UNC screws off the shelf
at 60p a piece?


--

I have indeed ordered the 12 24 UNC screw from the place you pointed me to, a2stainless.com (they have been close for holidays and delivery will be delayed)

But I wanted to give a try as well to making a 7/32 BSW, if it were easy.

So, is it not possible to make the screw using the 7/32 BSW die from a tap and die set starting with an M6 slotted countersunk screw where I had removed the thread and holding it tight on a vice?


Also, and excuse my ignorance, other than to clean a thread or rethread a slightly worn out one, what use are the dies in a tap and die set for?

Thanks.

[asalcedo]

Originally Posted by Dave Plowman (News)

Sure it's not solid gold at that price?

Whatever. If the female thread has failed but the male one ok, a helicoil
repair would be the best way to go.

--
*Husband and cat lost -- reward for cat

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Actually the male thread is the one that is worst.

Yes, I have seen the helicoil repair kits. They are good to know.

Can I rethread the male thread to a slightly smaller thread and use a helicoil repair kit for that new size?

[The Other Mike[_3_]]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 19:50:21 +0200, asalcedo
wrote:


'The Other Mike[_3_ Wrote:
;3108109']On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 17:21:28 +0200, asalcedo

wrote:
-

Following up from my previous thread.

I am going to try and tap a 7/32" BSW countersunk screw 10 mm long

I have found the following dies:

'7/32 BSW dies'
('7/32 BSW dies'
(http://www.tap-die.com/contents/en-u...BSW_dies.html))

'Rotagrip - 04) 7/32 x 24 BSW HSS Die 13/16\" Diameter'
('Rotagrip - 04) 7/32 x 24 BSW HSS Die 13/16\" Diameter'
(http://tinyurl.com/pzecw2y))

A couple of questions:

1. Which blank can I use?
2. I have a 25mm die holder from a metric tap and die set. Do I need to
get a 13/16" die holder for the dies above?-

You can't buy countersink screw 'blanks'

Holding countersink screws and machining a new thread on them is not
straightforward so you need to machine from solid

What you are trying to do requires machine tools not a diestock and a
die. At
the very least a lathe, preferably a milling machine as well to cut the
slots
for the screw head. Think a minimum of 750 quid, a few months to learn,
jigs
to hold the blanks and part machined screws and quite possibly a ****
end
product.

A 13/16" die holder is needed for 13/16" diameter dies.



What is wrong with buying the as near as dammit 12 24 UNC screws off the
shelf
at 60p a piece?


--

I have indeed ordered the 12 24 UNC screw from the place you pointed me
to, a2stainless.com (they have been close for holidays and delivery will
be delayed)

But I wanted to give a try as well to making a 7/32 BSW, if it were
easy.

So, is it not possible to make the screw using the 7/32 BSW die from a
tap and die set starting with an M6 slotted countersunk screw where I
had removed the thread and holding it tight on a vice?

You need to remove the thread, keeping the bolt exactly round and parallel,
reducing it in size to the major diameter of the thread you are trying to
produce

7/32" BSW or 12 24 UNC are 0.216" or 5.48mm.

Given that an M6 x 1 thread is 6mm diameter and 5mm at the root you cannot
produce a 7/32 BSW thread from this as by the time the M6 thread form is removed
the diameter of the bolt is 0.48mm smaller than that of the diameter needed for
the new thread.

Also, and excuse my ignorance, other than to clean a thread or rethread
a slightly worn out one, what use are the dies in a tap and die set for?

For cutting new theads on usually round material, exactly what you want to do
but you are starting from the wrong start point.


--

[asalcedo]

Originally Posted by John Rumm

On 16/08/2013 14:55, asalcedo wrote:[color=blue][i]


That works where the male thread is undamaged...

If you have a pair of threads where both sides are worn, then it becomes
harder to fix properly. An epoxy fix would be simpler (perhaps a metal
loaded one like JB Weld)

If you really want to go to town, then drill out the female thread, and
then turn down an insert so its a press fit into the hole. Fit that then
redrill and retap to the original spec. For the male bit either turn it
down, sleeve and re-thread it, or braise / silver solder onto it, turn
it to the major diameter, and then rethread it.

(this all assumes you have a lathe to hand!)




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - Internode Limited - Computer Consultancy and Software Development |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Hi John, your knowledge is vast!

I have one more idea:

What about filing down the existing male thread to the maximum possible smooth diameter, let say it is M7 (I think it is going to be around M7) and then rethreading the male end to M7 using an M7 die from my tap and die set

Laser 4554 Metric Tap & Die Set 110pc: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike

Then drill a hole into the second ball of the paper holder and tap an M7 thread into it?

Since the original ball will have the hole facing the wall it will not be noticed at all.

Question

Will I need to file down the worn out male thread to a very precise, smooth and centered cylindrical shape?

I would think that using a hand file should be good enough.

[Tim Lamb[_2_]]

In message , The Other Mike
writes

So, is it not possible to make the screw using the 7/32 BSW die from a
tap and die set starting with an M6 slotted countersunk screw where I
had removed the thread and holding it tight on a vice?

You need to remove the thread, keeping the bolt exactly round and parallel,
reducing it in size to the major diameter of the thread you are trying to
produce

7/32" BSW or 12 24 UNC are 0.216" or 5.48mm.

Given that an M6 x 1 thread is 6mm diameter and 5mm at the root you cannot
produce a 7/32 BSW thread from this as by the time the M6 thread form
is removed
the diameter of the bolt is 0.48mm smaller than that of the diameter needed for
the new thread.

Also, and excuse my ignorance, other than to clean a thread or rethread
a slightly worn out one, what use are the dies in a tap and die set for?

For cutting new theads on usually round material, exactly what you want to do
but you are starting from the wrong start point.

I suppose he might be able to grip the counter sunk head in a *soft jaw
vice*. I use off cuts of aluminium angle.




--
Tim Lamb

[asalcedo]

Originally Posted by Dave Liquorice[_2_]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 15:28:37 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

Boggle! How did you wear it out?

Quite. Once in place nothing needs to unscrew on a regular basis
unless the design is wrong. ie the gap between inner face of ball on
the end of the arm and wall is too small to a allow a standard full
bog roll to simply slide on.

The other possibilty is that it's been installed the wrong way up so
the weight of the bog roll tends to unscrew the standoff bar from the
joint ball.

As for paying £160 for it, boggle again. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

The house came with Waterfront and Lefroy Brooks bathroom accessories. They have lasted at least 20 years and still going strong.

That particular Waterfront toilet paper holder looks and feels really good and solid.

It is heavy and it is unavoidable that over the years and given the high leverage any impact at the end of the holder could have over tightened the thread.

I installed once a cheaper towel ring and the plating rusted away in no time.

It is expensive though, I agree. Thus the interest in the repair (and the fun of learning about tapping metal).

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article ,
asalcedo wrote:

Dave Plowman (News);3108095 Wrote:
Sure it's not solid gold at that price?

Whatever. If the female thread has failed but the male one ok, a
helicoil
repair would be the best way to go.


Actually the male thread is the one that is worst.

Often the case.

Yes, I have seen the helicoil repair kits. They are good to know.

Can I rethread the male thread to a slightly smaller thread and use a
helicoil repair kit for that new size?

No. There may be some thread repair inserts that allow this. However, a
smaller thread than original will simply give trouble more quickly than
the original.

--
*PMS jokes aren't funny; period.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

[asalcedo]

Originally Posted by Dave Plowman (News)

In article ,
asalcedo wrote:

Dave Plowman (News);3108095 Wrote:
Sure it's not solid gold at that price?

Whatever. If the female thread has failed but the male one ok, a
helicoil
repair would be the best way to go.


Actually the male thread is the one that is worst.

Often the case.

Yes, I have seen the helicoil repair kits. They are good to know.

Can I rethread the male thread to a slightly smaller thread and use a
helicoil repair kit for that new size?

No. There may be some thread repair inserts that allow this. However, a
smaller thread than original will simply give trouble more quickly than
the original.

--
*PMS jokes aren't funny; period.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

What about the other idea that I repeat he

Filing down the existing male thread to the maximum possible smooth diameter, let say it is M7 (I think it is going to be around M7) and then rethreading the male end to M7 using an M7 die from my tap and die set

Laser 4554 Metric Tap & Die Set 110pc

Then drill a hole into the second ball of the paper holder and tap an M7 thread into it?

Since the original ball will have the hole facing the wall it will not be noticed at all.

I understand that since I have reduced the male thread it will not be as strong but, it should be good enough for a number of years.

Question

Will I need to file down the worn out male thread to a very precise, smooth and centered cylindrical shape?

[[email protected]]

On Friday, 16 August 2013 18:56:09 UTC+2, The Other Mike wrote:

What you are trying to do requires machine tools not a diestock and a die. At

the very least a lathe, preferably a milling machine as well to cut the slots

for the screw head.

A milling machine to cut screw heads? Seems like overkill!
Broaching attachments that can cut - for example - hexagonal allen key holes in screw heads are an altogether simpler and cheaper solution.

[John Rumm]

On 16/08/2013 20:57, asalcedo wrote:
John Rumm;3108139 Wrote:

Hi John, your knowledge is vast!

Na that's my waistline ;-)

I have one more idea:

What about filing down the existing male thread to the maximum possible
smooth diameter, let say it is M7 (I think it is going to be around M7)
and then rethreading the male end to M7 using an M7 die from my tap and
die set

Yup, you might manage that - it will be hard getting a consistent
diameter on the filed bit - although if you spin it and hold the file
you might manage.

'Laser 4554 Metric Tap & Die Set 110pc: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike'
(http://tinyurl.com/kr55x5a)

Then drill a hole into the second ball of the paper holder and tap an M7
thread into it?

Yup that would be ok. You would need a drill bit that matches the minor
diameter of a M7 thread (which I have a feeling is 6mm, which makes life
easy ;-)

Drilling a ball shaped surface will take a little doing though. Start by
centre punching a starting dent. Then use a small drill for the first
hole (better still a proper centre drill), before working up to the
required size.

Since the original ball will have the hole facing the wall it will not
be noticed at all.

Question

Will I need to file down the worn out male thread to a very precise,
smooth and centered cylindrical shape?

It would help. But with care you may be able to do it by hand.

I would think that using a hand file should be good enough.

If you were to grip the end of the male thread in a chuck in a drill,
then spin the exposed threaded section against the file, that will get
that bit consistent. You can then hand file the last bit using the
"spun" section as a guide.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

[asalcedo]

Originally Posted by John Rumm

On 16/08/2013 20:57, asalcedo wrote:
John Rumm;3108139 Wrote:

Hi John, your knowledge is vast!

Na that's my waistline ;-)

I have one more idea:

What about filing down the existing male thread to the maximum possible
smooth diameter, let say it is M7 (I think it is going to be around M7)
and then rethreading the male end to M7 using an M7 die from my tap and
die set

Yup, you might manage that - it will be hard getting a consistent
diameter on the filed bit - although if you spin it and hold the file
you might manage.

'Laser 4554 Metric Tap & Die Set 110pc: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike'
(Laser 4554 Metric Tap & Die Set 110pc: Amazon.co.uk: Car & Motorbike)

Then drill a hole into the second ball of the paper holder and tap an M7
thread into it?

Yup that would be ok. You would need a drill bit that matches the minor
diameter of a M7 thread (which I have a feeling is 6mm, which makes life
easy ;-)

Drilling a ball shaped surface will take a little doing though. Start by
centre punching a starting dent. Then use a small drill for the first
hole (better still a proper centre drill), before working up to the
required size.

Since the original ball will have the hole facing the wall it will not
be noticed at all.

Question

Will I need to file down the worn out male thread to a very precise,
smooth and centered cylindrical shape?

It would help. But with care you may be able to do it by hand.

I would think that using a hand file should be good enough.

If you were to grip the end of the male thread in a chuck in a drill,
then spin the exposed threaded section against the file, that will get
that bit consistent. You can then hand file the last bit using the
"spun" section as a guide.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - Internode Limited - Computer Consultancy and Software Development |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Good tips.

Yeap, I'm ready now. And I have a feeling that it will be a job well done.

I will do it somewhere else where I have a pillar drill and a few other tools

Thank you.

[The Other Mike[_3_]]

On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 07:06:51 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, 16 August 2013 18:56:09 UTC+2, The Other Mike wrote:

What you are trying to do requires machine tools not a diestock and a die. At

the very least a lathe, preferably a milling machine as well to cut the slots

for the screw head.

A milling machine to cut screw heads? Seems like overkill!
Broaching attachments that can cut - for example - hexagonal allen key holes in screw heads are an altogether simpler and cheaper solution.

A hacksaw/needle file is cheapest but a bargain basement chinese mill with a
slitting saw is a damn sight cheaper and quicker for a slotted screw head than
buying a press, building a suitable fixture and making a broach


--