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Recently received an email from LocksOnline (from whom I've bought
mechanical bits and pieces in the past) attempting to sell me a security
system. Details he
http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...Security_.html

The idea seems to be that when (if) it detects an intruder or a fire in
your home, it sends you and SMS message - together with photos of
whatever its camera can see - prompting you to contact the police or
fire brigade from wherever you happen to be.

Anyone come across this sort of system? Would it actually work?

I ask partly because a thread started by Bill Wright in another NG
seemed to suggest that SMS message may sometimes not be delivered for
several hours. If that were the case, your house may well have been
cleared or razed to the ground by the time you knew about it.
--
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Roger
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On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:23:52 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:

Recently received an email from LocksOnline (from whom I've bought
mechanical bits and pieces in the past) attempting to sell me a security
system. Details he
http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalog/

Alert_Pal_Alarm_Camera_Home__Fire___Security_.html

The idea seems to be that when (if) it detects an intruder or a fire in
your home, it sends you and SMS message - together with photos of
whatever its camera can see - prompting you to contact the police or
fire brigade from wherever you happen to be.

Anyone come across this sort of system? Would it actually work?

I ask partly because a thread started by Bill Wright in another NG
seemed to suggest that SMS message may sometimes not be delivered for
several hours. If that were the case, your house may well have been
cleared or razed to the ground by the time you knew about it.


SMS, like email, is inherently unreliable. It's not guaranteed to work,
and in instances where it doesn't the originator may not be aware of it's
failure.

If you want reliability, you need to add another layer of protocol on
top, to deal with acknowledgements and the like.

In a previous role, I added a feature to our emergency logging system, to
generate an SMS to the assigned engineer. I made it crystal clear at the
time this was simply an addition to help the engineer by having the
postcode on his phone, rather than having to call into the office for his
next call. Of course within 5 seconds they ignored that, and started
bitching when SMSs weren't received. Unfortunately for the helpdesk
staff, the front page of the training manual I prepared had in block
capitals a disclaimer that the SMS feature was not reliable, and they
should tell the engineers as much.

You can get secure messaging services. Another employer I worked for used
"Cognito" which allowed for delivery and read receipts. It was integrated
into the ticketing system, so we could work out how efficient the
engineers were - they hated it as we could tell exactly when they opened
a message. I think it was overlaid on the GSM network.
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On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 16:04:13 GMT, Jethro_uk wrote:

SMS, like email, is inherently unreliable. It's not guaranteed to work,


Yep had many occasions of SMS messages taking hours to arrive. Daughter
gets quite cross when her messages to arrive on my phone several hours
after she sent them.

and in instances where it doesn't the originator may not be aware of
it's failure.


You can turn on the delivery reciept thingy but that doesn't mean the
recipient has actually noticed the message let alone read it. I don't
have my phone glued to my body, so if a message arrives and I'm not in
ear shot it can be quite a while before I notice. Sometimes prompted by
daughter "haven't you got my message?"...


--
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Dave.



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Well that is my first thought as well. I don't do text messages myself, but
I noted the other day that I'm still waiting for a second message someone
sent me ten mins after the forst, its been three days now. In any case, how
can these companies be selling x number of free texts if its all clogged up
and unreliable. I'd have thought this kind of thing should be done over
something like https in any case for security.
Brian

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Email:
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"Roger Mills" wrote in message
...
Recently received an email from LocksOnline (from whom I've bought
mechanical bits and pieces in the past) attempting to sell me a security
system. Details he
http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...Security_.html

The idea seems to be that when (if) it detects an intruder or a fire in
your home, it sends you and SMS message - together with photos of whatever
its camera can see - prompting you to contact the police or fire brigade
from wherever you happen to be.

Anyone come across this sort of system? Would it actually work?

I ask partly because a thread started by Bill Wright in another NG seemed
to suggest that SMS message may sometimes not be delivered for several
hours. If that were the case, your house may well have been cleared or
razed to the ground by the time you knew about it.
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 16:46:15 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

You can turn on the delivery reciept thingy but that doesn't mean the
recipient has actually noticed the message let alone read it. I don't
have my phone glued to my body, so if a message arrives and I'm not in
ear shot it can be quite a while before I notice. Sometimes prompted by
daughter "haven't you got my message?"...


IIRC SMS delivery reports are like email delivery/read receipts. An
optional extension to the standard which not all servers are guaranteed
to honour. And it only takes one server in the hop to not honour it, and
it gets lost.

This is why I appreciate organisations (like my local council) that email
you a receipt when they receive an email - at least you know they've got
it. By the same token, I am always a little wary of organisations which
don't acknowledge emails (whether direct, or by their irritating
"webform" (which must be designed to deter complainants) as all to often
you never hear anything from them, and further contact results in "we
never got an email" ......).


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On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:23:52 +0000, Roger Mills
wrote:


Anyone come across this sort of system? Would it actually work?


There have been at least two previous incarnations of this idea, and
both companies making them have failed. I had one on trial for
some time. It worked well enough but as others have said SMS delivery
wasn't always quick (although to be fair it usually was, but don't get
broken into at midnight on DEC 31st). Using a PAYG SIM also made it
difficult to know how much (if any) credit you had left on the card so
you could be left with nothing when you needed it (especially as some
PAYG SIM's time out after a fixed period).

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On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:23:52 +0000, Roger Mills
wrote:

Recently received an email from LocksOnline (from whom I've bought
mechanical bits and pieces in the past) attempting to sell me a security
system. Details he
http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...Security_.html



You can buy the basics of the system, ie the camera and mobile phone
part here for £82. I've used the suppliers before and apart from a
minor customs gltch it all went very smoothly and arrived in five
days. Can't comment on the cam exactly, but text messages round here
seem to arrive reliably and promptly. A relative used a similar system
(but no photographs) to text him when an intruder alarm was triggered
at a house he was renovating nearby. It has worked reliably AFAIK.


http://www.chinavasion.com/7w0p/

GSM Remote Security Camera (Quad-band, Motion Detection, Nightvision):
Keep an eye on your home or office from anywhere in the world by
receiving MMS messages when this ingenious surveillance device detects
an intruder.
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On 17/12/2012 15:23, Roger Mills wrote:

I ask partly because a thread started by Bill Wright in another NG
seemed to suggest that SMS message may sometimes not be delivered for
several hours. If that were the case, your house may well have been
cleared or razed to the ground by the time you knew about it.


If you are on the O2 network then it would not be unusual for messages
to be delayed from 2 to 24 hours.


--
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On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 15:23:52 +0000, Roger Mills wrote:
The idea seems to be that when (if) it detects an intruder or a fire in
your home, it sends you and SMS message - together with photos of
whatever its camera can see - prompting you to contact the police or
fire brigade from wherever you happen to be.

Anyone come across this sort of system? Would it actually work?


No. It's an utterly useless idea, because I don't have a mobile phone :-)
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In message , at 15:23:52 on Mon, 17
Dec 2012, Roger Mills remarked:
The idea seems to be that when (if) it detects an intruder or a fire in
your home, it sends you and SMS message - together with photos of
whatever its camera can see - prompting you to contact the police or
fire brigade from wherever you happen to be.

Anyone come across this sort of system? Would it actually work?


I think a chum who lives near me has one. But he was struggling because
he didn't have mobile coverage in his premises (for the network it was
supplied with).

As for delays in SMS delivery - I agree! When it became known about 10
years ago that some emergency services were considering dispatching
vehicles with SMS, the response was: "no, just NO".
--
Roland Perry


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You can get secure messaging services. Another employer I worked for used
"Cognito" which allowed for delivery and read receipts. It was integrated
into the ticketing system, so we could work out how efficient the
engineers were - they hated it as we could tell exactly when they opened
a message. I think it was overlaid on the GSM network.


COGNETO!
I had one of those in a previous life and I've been wracking my brain
for years trying to remember what it was called.

I think we had them before we got Band III radios installed in our
cars.



--
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%Profound_observation%
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On Mon, 17 Dec 2012 23:11:55 +0000, Graham. wrote:

You can get secure messaging services. Another employer I worked for
used "Cognito" which allowed for delivery and read receipts. It was
integrated into the ticketing system, so we could work out how efficient
the engineers were - they hated it as we could tell exactly when they
opened a message. I think it was overlaid on the GSM network.


COGNETO!
I had one of those in a previous life and I've been wracking my brain
for years trying to remember what it was called.

I think we had them before we got Band III radios installed in our cars.


Ah, the dangers of hearing a word, and never seeing it written down
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On 17/12/2012 15:23, Roger Mills wrote:
Recently received an email from LocksOnline (from whom I've bought
mechanical bits and pieces in the past) attempting to sell me a security
system. Details he
http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...Security_.html


The idea seems to be that when (if) it detects an intruder or a fire in
your home, it sends you and SMS message - together with photos of
whatever its camera can see - prompting you to contact the police or
fire brigade from wherever you happen to be.

Anyone come across this sort of system? Would it actually work?

I ask partly because a thread started by Bill Wright in another NG
seemed to suggest that SMS message may sometimes not be delivered for
several hours. If that were the case, your house may well have been
cleared or razed to the ground by the time you knew about it.


Seems London Fire Brigade is considering twitter to report fires...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20754978

Is that any more reliable than SMS?

I do appreciate the issues about gathering extra information mentioned
in story. But the inherent one-wayness strikes me as a problem - and the
inherent interaction is most often a significant advantage of an
ordinary phone call.

--
Rod
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Roger Mills wrote:

I ask partly because a thread started by Bill Wright in another NG
seemed to suggest that SMS message may sometimes not be delivered for
several hours. If that were the case, your house may well have been
cleared or razed to the ground by the time you knew about it.


The longest delay I've had on an SMS was 14 *days*. Yes, the phone was
turned on and usable during the whole period, and there had been no
network problems reported by either operator.

Usually, though, it's a few seconds.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.
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On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 11:30:34 +0000, John Williamson wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:

I ask partly because a thread started by Bill Wright in another NG
seemed to suggest that SMS message may sometimes not be delivered for
several hours. If that were the case, your house may well have been
cleared or razed to the ground by the time you knew about it.


The longest delay I've had on an SMS was 14 *days*. Yes, the phone was
turned on and usable during the whole period, and there had been no
network problems reported by either operator.


The point is an SMS can just be lost - the protocol doesn't provide a
return path for acknowledgement. Same as email.


Usually, though, it's a few seconds.


"Usually" isn't good enough when it's real time and/or high risk.


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Jethro_uk wrote:
On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 11:30:34 +0000, John Williamson wrote:

Roger Mills wrote:

I ask partly because a thread started by Bill Wright in another NG
seemed to suggest that SMS message may sometimes not be delivered for
several hours. If that were the case, your house may well have been
cleared or razed to the ground by the time you knew about it.

The longest delay I've had on an SMS was 14 *days*. Yes, the phone was
turned on and usable during the whole period, and there had been no
network problems reported by either operator.


The point is an SMS can just be lost - the protocol doesn't provide a
return path for acknowledgement. Same as email.

Vodafone do provide a delivery notification, though I'm not sure if
that's actually to the recipient or just their network. It certainly
doesn't tell you when the message has been opened.

Usually, though, it's a few seconds.


"Usually" isn't good enough when it's real time and/or high risk.


I wasn't suggesting that it is. I've had quite a few occasions when the
client has asked me why I didn't arrive at the new time they texted me.
Either the text hadn't arrived within a few minutes or I'd not heard the
alert....

--
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John.
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In message , at 11:23:01 on Tue, 18
Dec 2012, polygonum remarked:

Seems London Fire Brigade is considering twitter to report fires...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-20754978

Is that any more reliable than SMS?


You can see if a tweet has been posted, and unless there's a system-wide
outage (which does happen very occasionally) it's reliably almost
instantaneous.

I can tell this because I have three Twitter accounts linked to my
Tweetdeck and one follows the other two, so I can see the messages
coming straight back.
--
Roland Perry
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In message , at 11:43:38 on Tue, 18 Dec
2012, Jethro_uk remarked:
The point is an SMS can just be lost - the protocol doesn't provide a
return path for acknowledgement. Same as email.


Depends what you are using to send email (and what the person receiving
it is using).

I sometimes send emails "direct" to the recipient's local email server,
rather than via a third party mail relay, and this means I can
inherently tell if it's been received by that local server.

Also sat by my desk is such a local email server (independent of any ISP
relays) which collects emails sent to one of my many domains. The
contents are on my screen immediately.
--
Roland Perry
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In message , Roger Mills
writes
Recently received an email from LocksOnline (from whom I've bought
mechanical bits and pieces in the past) attempting to sell me a
security system. Details he
http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...ra_Home__Fire_
__Security_.html

The idea seems to be that when (if) it detects an intruder or a fire in
your home, it sends you and SMS message - together with photos of
whatever its camera can see - prompting you to contact the police or
fire brigade from wherever you happen to be.

I immediately thought this would be great for fitting inside my
allotment shed. But the battery life is stated as 10-12 hours so no
good. Anyone know of a setup which would last longer?

--
Simon

12) The Second Rule of Expectations
An EXPECTATION is a Premeditated resentment.
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On Tuesday, December 18, 2012 12:03:44 PM UTC, Roland Perry wrote:

I sometimes send emails "direct" to the recipient's local email server,
rather than via a third party mail relay, and this means I can inherently
tell if it's been received by that local server.


You still cannot reliably determine that the message has reached the recipient's mailbox, or that it has been opened/read.


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In message , at
02:08:14 on Wed, 19 Dec 2012, Mathew Newton
remarked:
I sometimes send emails "direct" to the recipient's local email server,
rather than via a third party mail relay, and this means I can inherently
tell if it's been received by that local server.


You still cannot reliably determine that the message has reached the recipient's mailbox, or that it has been opened/read.


That depends on how they collect their mail. If I send such an email to
my own local email server, the only thing stopping it appearing in one
of the recipient's mailboxes (barring the internal network failing) is
if they've switched off their email client.

But even if you send someone a telex for FAX, with delivery confirmed,
you can't guarantee it'll ever be taken off the machine and given to
anyone.
--
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On Wednesday, December 19, 2012 10:19:10 AM UTC, Roland Perry wrote:

But even if you send someone a telex for FAX, with delivery confirmed,
you can't guarantee it'll ever be taken off the machine and given to
anyone.


I don't recall anyone saying you could. The comparison being made was that the (un)reliability of SMS was similar to e-mail.
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On 19/12/2012 08:55, usenet2012 wrote:
In message , Roger Mills
writes
Recently received an email from LocksOnline (from whom I've bought
mechanical bits and pieces in the past) attempting to sell me a
security system. Details he
http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...ra_Home__Fire_
__Security_.html

The idea seems to be that when (if) it detects an intruder or a fire
in your home, it sends you and SMS message - together with photos of
whatever its camera can see - prompting you to contact the police or
fire brigade from wherever you happen to be.

I immediately thought this would be great for fitting inside my
allotment shed. But the battery life is stated as 10-12 hours so no
good. Anyone know of a setup which would last longer?


I wonder what the output of the power adapter is, and whether you could
derive that from a car battery. If so, that should last a bit longer!
--
Cheers,
Roger
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On Tue, 18 Dec 2012 11:52:16 +0000, John Williamson wrote:

Vodafone do provide a delivery notification, though I'm not sure if
that's actually to the recipient or just their network. It certainly
doesn't tell you when the message has been opened.


I'm not as au fait with SMS as email, but if they're analogous, then it
only takes a node in the chain which *doesn't* support receipts, and the
mechanism is broken.
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In message , at
03:05:36 on Wed, 19 Dec 2012, Mathew Newton
remarked:
But even if you send someone a telex for FAX, with delivery confirmed,
you can't guarantee it'll ever be taken off the machine and given to
anyone.


I don't recall anyone saying you could. The comparison being made was
that the (un)reliability of SMS was similar to e-mail.


I'm trying to explore what people think "reliable" means.

Is it knowing I've got the email onto a server three feet away from the
recipient (with onward delivery to their PC the default), or are we
looking for a receipt which says they've also opened it?

There is of course the whole MDN thing, but it's almost never used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_receipt
--
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In message , Roger Mills
writes
On 19/12/2012 08:55, usenet2012 wrote:
In message , Roger Mills
writes
Recently received an email from LocksOnline (from whom I've bought
mechanical bits and pieces in the past) attempting to sell me a
security system. Details he
http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...ra_Home__Fire_
__Security_.html

The idea seems to be that when (if) it detects an intruder or a fire
in your home, it sends you and SMS message - together with photos of
whatever its camera can see - prompting you to contact the police or
fire brigade from wherever you happen to be.

I immediately thought this would be great for fitting inside my
allotment shed. But the battery life is stated as 10-12 hours so no
good. Anyone know of a setup which would last longer?


I wonder what the output of the power adapter is, and whether you could
derive that from a car battery. If so, that should last a bit longer!


5.5V - I could bodgerise a mobile car charging lead I guess.

--
Simon

12) The Second Rule of Expectations
An EXPECTATION is a Premeditated resentment.
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On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 11:48:09 +0000, Roland Perry wrote:

I'm trying to explore what people think "reliable" means.


In this context it's knowledge that once the message is sent, it will get
to it's destination within a set period of time - enough to be useful.
Which is of course impossible.

The next best thing, is the knowledge that if the message could not be
delivered (for whatever reason) the sender will be notified within a set
period of time - enough to be able to either resend the message, or
arrange an alternative route.

The old world analogy of course, would be with the postal system. It's an
inherently unreliable one, but can be enhanced with recorded delivery.
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usenet2012 wrote:
In message , Roger Mills
writes
On 19/12/2012 08:55, usenet2012 wrote:
In message , Roger Mills
writes
Recently received an email from LocksOnline (from whom I've bought
mechanical bits and pieces in the past) attempting to sell me a
security system. Details he
http://www.locksonline.co.uk/acatalo...ra_Home__Fire_
__Security_.html

The idea seems to be that when (if) it detects an intruder or a
fire in your home, it sends you and SMS message - together with
photos of whatever its camera can see - prompting you to contact
the police or fire brigade from wherever you happen to be.

I immediately thought this would be great for fitting inside my
allotment shed. But the battery life is stated as 10-12 hours so no
good. Anyone know of a setup which would last longer?


I wonder what the output of the power adapter is, and whether you
could derive that from a car battery. If so, that should last a bit
longer!


5.5V - I could bodgerise a mobile car charging lead I guess.

A 6volt 12ah dryfit would last weeks, then recharge overnight
on a car battery charger

Steve Terry
--
Get a free GiffGaff PAYG Sim and £5 bonus after activation at:
http://giffgaff.com/orders/affiliate/gfourwwk


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In message , at 14:51:10 on Wed, 19
Dec 2012, Jethro_uk remarked:
I'm trying to explore what people think "reliable" means.


In this context it's knowledge that once the message is sent, it will get
to it's destination within a set period of time - enough to be useful.
Which is of course impossible.


Depends on how you define destination. I can provide people knowledge
that an email to one of my domains has reached the in-house server three
feet from me.

The next best thing, is the knowledge that if the message could not be
delivered (for whatever reason) the sender will be notified within a set
period of time - enough to be able to either resend the message, or
arrange an alternative route.


And anyone sending an email direct to that server will be informed
immediately if it's undeliverable. Although if they go through an
intermediary (such as their ISP) to send the email then there will be a
process of silent retries for maybe a day or two, followed by noisy
retries for anything up to a week.

The old world analogy of course, would be with the postal system. It's an
inherently unreliable one, but can be enhanced with recorded delivery.


Recorded delivery just says it got to the premises. Not to the person,
nor that they opened (let alone read) the letter.

My scheme above is at least as good as Recorded Delivery as far as those
aspects are concerned.
--
Roland Perry
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