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.... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/

We've got the wind here but not the solar...

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On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 10:12:22 +0000, Mike Tomlinson wrote:


.... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/


99.9% = 8.766 hours per year without power.

Also look at the graph it still needed 20 to 30GW of fossil back up.

What is the enviromental cost of producing all those windmills, solar
panels, batteries. I see no mention of how many windmills are needed or
the required area of solar panels.

They also make the assumption that the sun always shines or the wind
always blows, somewhere.

They also include the costs of health problems supposedly caused by
pollution from the current fossil energy sources. How on earth do you
quantify that, except to massage the figures?

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On 15/12/2012 10:12, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

.... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/

We've got the wind here but not the solar...

"One of the key elements in their plan would be to have a widespread
geographical distribution of such intermittent sources as wind farms and
photovoltaic installations – when it's windy and sunny in one location
on the grid, it could be calm and overcast in another and all parts of
the grid would have enough power."

Widespread as in connecting UK and our severe lack of sun (at night, in
the winter) with, say, Australia? While we are at it, maybe a
transatlantic water grid so we can send some of our current excess to
the Mississippi...

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On 15/12/2012 10:58, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:

... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/

We've got the wind here but not the solar...


1) This is the US, not the UK

2) It spins the usual fallacy that "the wind is always blowing
somewhere", which may be true over a large area such as the US. Over
here, we just had three days with next to no wind. In addition, if you
actually have wind here, but not there, you could install enough kit so
that the wind here also provided volts to cover the no-wind there. So
you've just at least doubled the amount of kit you need to install, and
have committed yourself to shipping large amounts or power long
distances, something to be avoided on a grid (see TNP's paper for details).


You haven't thought this through Tim.

If its windy over there, you can use the turbines to power fans to blow
air in this direction, making it windy here as well.


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On 15/12/12 10:12, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/

We've got the wind here but not the solar...

its just green bollox commissioned by the oil companies to keep peop;le
stick to renewable energy and with fossil backup.

If you look carefully there's a lot of geographical diversity and
e;electrochemical storage in there. What that means is a grid round the
equator and batteries the size of australia.

Its pie in the sky fantasy.

Whose sole purpose is to stop people tumbling top the fact that
windmills won't work, ever.



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(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.



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On Saturday, December 15, 2012 10:12:22 AM UTC, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/
We've got the wind here but not the solar...


Using 2 huge costing fiddle factors, plus missing out the huge cost of running both renewables and fossil generation, plus missing out the cost of the equipment to control and use 2 types of heating in all homes, plus avoiding the cost of the huge extra transmission network capacity. Other than that it has some kind of connection with reality... somewhere.... that I sure cant find.


NT
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On 15/12/2012 10:12, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/

We've got the wind here but not the solar...


It could supply it all now.. if you just shut down everything else.
It isn't meaningful unless you can say it will supply all *required* power.
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En el artículo ,
Tim Streater escribió:

1) This is the US, not the UK


No ****, Sherlock. I do know where Delaware is.

I thought the article was worth flagging up if only for the dubious
claim that wind and solar could provide 99.9% of energy needs, since
power generation is a frequent subject of lively discussion in this
group.

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In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:

En el artículo ,
Tim Streater escribió:

1) This is the US, not the UK


No ****, Sherlock. I do know where Delaware is.

I thought the article was worth flagging up if only for the dubious
claim that wind and solar could provide 99.9% of energy needs, since
power generation is a frequent subject of lively discussion in this
group.


No probs, MT: I perceived it exactly that, and I'm sure most people did.

My question, raised by Tim's point:

2) It spins the usual fallacy that "the wind is always blowing
somewhere", which may be true over a large area such as the US. Over
here, we just had three days with next to no wind.


However, we are an island nation, of a small size (with nowhere further
than 70m from the coast). Why the heck aren't we pursuing wave and/or
tidal power? THAT will definitely always be there

Incidentally there's no doubt in my mind that the reason we're seeing
these monstrosities rearing up all over the landscape has less to do
with the efficacy of wind power, and more to do with the largesse doled
out to the landowners/sponsors who commission them: money for nothing.

John


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On 15/12/12 13:04, dennis@home wrote:
On 15/12/2012 10:12, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/

We've got the wind here but not the solar...


It could supply it all now.. if you just shut down everything else.
It isn't meaningful unless you can say it will supply all *required* power.


Renewable energy supplies all the energy in my greenhouse. Trouble is it
was -5C last week.

Renewable energy supplies all Rockall's needs. No one lives there.


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lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
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Mike Tomlinson wrote:
... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/

We've got the wind here but not the solar...


Renewables will have to provide 100% of the power one day, so they might as
well start somewhere.



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On 15/12/2012 16:30, Another John wrote:
However, we are an island nation, of a small size (with nowhere further
than 70m from the coast). Why the heck aren't we pursuing wave and/or
tidal power? THAT will definitely always be there


Wave is as unpredictable as wind. Tides happen twice a day (roughly) and
you can only pull out power while the tide is flowing. There's also a
scale problem - we use (waste?) far too much energy for tide to do more
than help a bit.

The paper that Mike posted is behind a paywall. But it seems to suggest
hydrogen tanks being used for storage for 9-72 hours of power. I guess
they get it from electrolysis and feed it into fuel cells - but I can't
help thinking "terrorist target".

They also talk about having 3 times the generating capacity that the
system needs, because it's better to throw power away than not have any.

Andy
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On 15/12/12 20:36, Phil L wrote:
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/

We've got the wind here but not the solar...


Renewables will have to provide 100% of the power one day, so they might as
well start somewhere.



No they wont.
The universe is not renewable.

You mihght equally say 'we all have to die, so lets commit suicide now
and get used to it'.

WE have always been living ion borrowed time. The only question is which
time to borrow.

Since there is enough nuclear fissile material to last as long as
civilisation has already, that's a start. Then fusion might get us off
planet.





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lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
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rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
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On 15/12/12 21:40, Andy Champ wrote:
On 15/12/2012 16:30, Another John wrote:
However, we are an island nation, of a small size (with nowhere further
than 70m from the coast). Why the heck aren't we pursuing wave and/or
tidal power? THAT will definitely always be there


Wave is as unpredictable as wind. Tides happen twice a day (roughly) and
you can only pull out power while the tide is flowing. There's also a
scale problem - we use (waste?) far too much energy for tide to do more
than help a bit.

The paper that Mike posted is behind a paywall. But it seems to suggest
hydrogen tanks being used for storage for 9-72 hours of power. I guess
they get it from electrolysis and feed it into fuel cells - but I can't
help thinking "terrorist target".

I cant help thinking 'higher body count than chernobyl when it goes off
bang' but there you go. Its cool to die a green death apparently.

They also talk about having 3 times the generating capacity that the
system needs, because it's better to throw power away than not have any.


greens don't do sums with other peoples money
#

Andy



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rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.



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On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 10:12:22 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:


... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/

We've got the wind here but not the solar...


Don't you just love statements like "could" provide....?

By 2030 these proponents will likely have retired or gone on to
propose other far-fetchèd possibilities, no doubt publically funded
too.

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On 16/12/12 02:07, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 10:12:22 +0000, Mike Tomlinson
wrote:


... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/

We've got the wind here but not the solar...


Don't you just love statements like "could" provide....?

By 2030 these proponents will likely have retired or gone on to
propose other far-fetchèd possibilities, no doubt publically funded
too.

The name of the game is to provide a plausible excuse to the
addle-brained politician to keep funding these ridiculous white
elephants, and give the Faithful something 'academic' and 'peer
reviewed' (by another fully paid up renewable 'scientist') so that
Greenpeace and FOE, and any other Luddites of the Left- also full paid
up and in the pocket of the big businesses - can carry on lobbying for
things that simply don't work.

"You mission, should you choose to accept it, is to produce a document
that shows how we *could* have an almost entirely renewable grid by
2030: Any assumptions you need to make about science, technology, the
laws of physics and the availability of infinite supplies of money,
advances in technology beyond your wildest dreams, and the existence of
a world government capable of stabilising most of the planet to achieve
geographical diversity, should be made to produce a plausible document.
What matters is the headline"

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lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
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On Dec 15, 10:57 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Since there is enough nuclear fissile material to last as long as
civilisation has already, that's a start.


+1 - do pass the thorium salt

Then fusion might get us off
planet.


er... to where before the cosmic radiation "out there" kills us?

Jim K
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On 15/12/2012 21:31, Tim Streater wrote:
Same sort of issue really. You could have a tidal barrage across the
Severn, and then one or more across, I dunno, the Humber or something
(anyway, somewhere where the tide is 90deg out of phase with the Severn).


Morecambe Bay IIRC.

"H R Wallingfords research consisted of both on site measurement and
modelling and identified that the maximum outputs for power production
outputs in the Bay could be as much as 2-3GW."

http://www.imeche.org/knowledge/industries/power/news/bridge-across-the-bay

The biggest Severn scheme, if Wikipedia and the Beeb can be believed, is
8Gw. For 8 hours per day, and not at neaps.

Andy
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On Dec 15, 10:12*am, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/

We've got the wind here but not the solar...

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We have the largest tidal potential here of almost anywhere.


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On 16/12/12 17:22, harry wrote:
On Dec 15, 10:12 am, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/

We've got the wind here but not the solar...

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We have the largest tidal potential here of almost anywhere.

And its still not worth even ****ing around with


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On 16/12/12 11:05, Jim K wrote:
On Dec 15, 10:57 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Since there is enough nuclear fissile material to last as long as
civilisation has already, that's a start.


+1 - do pass the thorium salt

Then fusion might get us off
planet.


er... to where before the cosmic radiation "out there" kills us?

who knows? easy enough to push shielded spaceships about.

Lets face it half of today's yoof never go outside anyway, so living
underground on deep fried Mars Bars would seem to be ideal.

We could fire off generation ships full of greens to mess up some other
planet.


Jim K



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On 16/12/12 16:43, Andy Champ wrote:
On 15/12/2012 21:31, Tim Streater wrote:
Same sort of issue really. You could have a tidal barrage across the
Severn, and then one or more across, I dunno, the Humber or something
(anyway, somewhere where the tide is 90deg out of phase with the Severn).


Morecambe Bay IIRC.

"H R Wallingfords research consisted of both on site measurement and
modelling and identified that the maximum outputs for power production
outputs in the Bay could be as much as 2-3GW."

http://www.imeche.org/knowledge/industries/power/news/bridge-across-the-bay


The biggest Severn scheme, if Wikipedia and the Beeb can be believed, is
8Gw. For 8 hours per day, and not at neaps.

Andy

peak outputs are useless. Its lowest output and peak to mean ratio that
determines usefulness.

http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/R...imitations.pdf

read it.



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lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
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rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
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On 16/12/2012 18:03, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 16/12/12 16:43, Andy Champ wrote:
On 15/12/2012 21:31, Tim Streater wrote:
Same sort of issue really. You could have a tidal barrage across the
Severn, and then one or more across, I dunno, the Humber or something
(anyway, somewhere where the tide is 90deg out of phase with the
Severn).


Morecambe Bay IIRC.

"H R Wallingfords research consisted of both on site measurement and
modelling and identified that the maximum outputs for power production
outputs in the Bay could be as much as 2-3GW."

http://www.imeche.org/knowledge/industries/power/news/bridge-across-the-bay



The biggest Severn scheme, if Wikipedia and the Beeb can be believed, is
8Gw. For 8 hours per day, and not at neaps.

Andy

peak outputs are useless. Its lowest output and peak to mean ratio that
determines usefulness.

http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/R...imitations.pdf

read it.

You are preaching to the choir Which part of "For 8 hours per day,
and not at neaps." did you not understand?

I'm quite aware that Morecambe Bay plus the Severn might let us shut
down Sizewell B, and perhaps Hinkley Point - but nothing else. And only
at the cost of some pretty significant wildlife sites.

Andy

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On Sat, 15 Dec 2012 10:12:22 +0000, Mike Tomlinson wrote:


... according to a study by the Uni of Delaware.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/12...ewables_study/

We've got the wind here but not the solar...


It's time to start burning the greens


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