Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19785689

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19785689

"excess energy generated from renewables. "

hahahaha ROFLMAO.

" this process is only 25% efficient but it is massively improved by
co-siting the cryo-generator next to an industrial plant or power
station producing low-grade heat that is currently vented and being
released into the atmosphere"

So like all renewables it depends on cheap fossil fuel to work.:-)

More green pie in the sky.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 13:59:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19785689

"excess energy generated from renewables. "

hahahaha ROFLMAO.

" this process is only 25% efficient but it is massively improved by
co-siting the cryo-generator next to an industrial plant or power
station producing low-grade heat that is currently vented and being
released into the atmosphere"

So like all renewables it depends on cheap fossil fuel to work.:-)

More green pie in the sky.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc -ra-cy) a system of government where the least capable
to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of
a
diminishing number of producers.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-19785689

"excess energy generated from renewables. "

hahahaha ROFLMAO.

" this process is only 25% efficient but it is massively improved by
co-siting the cryo-generator next to an industrial plant or power
station producing low-grade heat that is currently vented and being
released into the atmosphere"

So like all renewables it depends on cheap fossil fuel to work.:-)

More green pie in the sky.

It's a method of storing energy created at a time when it isn't needed
until it is in the short term. And the efficiency is said to possibly be
able to approach that of a rechargeable battery. But I dunno how practical
it is - pumping water up to the top of a hill and using that to run a
hydro electric system has its problems too.

--
*Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 13:59:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

"excess energy generated from renewables. "

hahahaha ROFLMAO.

Well yes. Would get rid of the stupid "we don't want your power but we'll
still pay you your well above market price". Every wind farm has to have
a liquid air plant (paid for by the wind co) to even out the
supply/demand problem.

" this process is only 25% efficient but it is massively improved by
co-siting the cryo-generator next to an industrial plant or power
station producing low-grade heat that is currently vented and being
released into the atmosphere"

So like all renewables it depends on cheap fossil fuel to work.:-)

More green pie in the sky.

But look at it another way instead of having to throttle your fossil
plants up and down with demand which isn't very effcient you can run them
with a steady throttle and dump to (or take) from the liquid air energy
bank to meet demand fluctuations and you have the waste heat from the
power station to help.

I'm also wondering what the energy density of liquid air is. Could it
become a replacement for diesel/petrol in smaller vehicles? We seem to be
able to handle LPG safely enough and that is flamable, liquid air is well
air... I can see problems in winter though with frozen "radiators" (aka
heat absorbers) to provide the energy for the phase change.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
I'm also wondering what the energy density of liquid air is. Could it
become a replacement for diesel/petrol in smaller vehicles? We seem to
be able to handle LPG safely enough and that is flamable, liquid air is
well air... I can see problems in winter though with frozen "radiators"
(aka heat absorbers) to provide the energy for the phase change.

Since it's only storing energy rather than producing it by burning, my gut
feeling is it won't store anything like as much by volume as LPG.

--
*There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 02/10/2012 16:00, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 13:59:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

"excess energy generated from renewables."

hahahaha ROFLMAO.

Well yes. Would get rid of the stupid "we don't want your power but we'll
still pay you your well above market price". Every wind farm has to have
a liquid air plant (paid for by the wind co) to even out the
supply/demand problem.

" this process is only 25% efficient but it is massively improved by
co-siting the cryo-generator next to an industrial plant or power
station producing low-grade heat that is currently vented and being
released into the atmosphere"

So like all renewables it depends on cheap fossil fuel to work.:-)

More green pie in the sky.

But look at it another way instead of having to throttle your fossil
plants up and down with demand which isn't very effcient you can run them
with a steady throttle and dump to (or take) from the liquid air energy
bank to meet demand fluctuations and you have the waste heat from the
power station to help.

I'm also wondering what the energy density of liquid air is. Could it
become a replacement for diesel/petrol in smaller vehicles? We seem to be

If you take it as a 80:20 mix of Nitrogen / Oxygen, you get a specific
latent heat of vaporisation of just over 200 kJ/kg compared to 46.8
MJ/kg if you oxidise petrol. So not an ideal replacement by the sounds
of it.

Which suggests you need 18,000 tonnes of liquid air to store 1MW/h. The
density is about 9/10ths that of water - so 20,000 litres roughly.

In gaseous form that is lots of air - hence you need to vent it rather
than store it after use. It also means stripping the CO2 from "new" air
each cycle.

able to handle LPG safely enough and that is flamable, liquid air is well
air... I can see problems in winter though with frozen "radiators" (aka
heat absorbers) to provide the energy for the phase change.

With LPG you can burn the thawed gas to provide the heat of vaporisation
- and its only a small proportion of the heat stored. The same trick is
unlikely to work for air!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tuesday, October 2, 2012 5:41:47 PM UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
snip

In gaseous form that is lots of air - hence you need to vent it rather
than store it after use. It also means stripping the CO2 from "new" air
each cycle.

Maybe they'll find somewhere to store the CO2 and claim to be carbon negative...

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

"excess energy generated from renewables. "


It's a method of storing energy created at a time when it isn't needed
until it is in the short term. And the efficiency is said to possibly be
able to approach that of a rechargeable battery. But I dunno how practical
it is - pumping water up to the top of a hill and using that to run a
hydro electric system has its problems too.

But renewables don't generate excess energy. Even with all renewables
going full tilt (which is unusual) the total output is nowhere near the
UK's lowest demand figure. So if the energy from renewables was used at
any time to power this storage scheme all it means is that gas-fired
stations would have to work a bit harder.

Bill

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

"excess energy generated from renewables. "


It's a method of storing energy created at a time when it isn't needed
until it is in the short term. And the efficiency is said to possibly be
able to approach that of a rechargeable battery. But I dunno how
practical
it is - pumping water up to the top of a hill and using that to run a
hydro electric system has its problems too.

But renewables don't generate excess energy. Even with all renewables
going full tilt (which is unusual) the total output is nowhere near the
UK's lowest demand figure. So if the energy from renewables was used at
any time to power this storage scheme all it means is that gas-fired
stations would have to work a bit harder.

Renewables are erratic, if you can use the energy storage system to absorb
the peaks and troughs it will probably make renewables useful.

What's the energy density of liquid air? Does it make a useful fuel for
cars/lorries?

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

I'm also wondering what the energy density of liquid air is. Could it
become a replacement for diesel/petrol in smaller vehicles? We seem to be
able to handle LPG safely enough and that is flamable, liquid air is well
air... I can see problems in winter though with frozen "radiators" (aka
heat absorbers) to provide the energy for the phase change.

Well you're not burning the air unlike LPG - and for LPG you already need
a largish tank. And what are the wind farm people expecting to do with the
liquid air? Not, I hope, piping it anywhere. Are they just expecting to
have yet more expensive equipment at the site of the wind farm with a low
load factor?

Put the plant next to nuclear stations.
then they can use the waste heat to boil the air.
Think of how much better that makes nuclear power. ;-)

Bill Wright wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

"excess energy generated from renewables. "


It's a method of storing energy created at a time when it isn't needed
until it is in the short term. And the efficiency is said to possibly be
able to approach that of a rechargeable battery. But I dunno how
practical
it is - pumping water up to the top of a hill and using that to run a
hydro electric system has its problems too.

But renewables don't generate excess energy. Even with all renewables
going full tilt (which is unusual) the total output is nowhere near the
UK's lowest demand figure. So if the energy from renewables was used at
any time to power this storage scheme all it means is that gas-fired
stations would have to work a bit harder.


Ah but once we have 60GW of solar panels on tap on harries house we will
have a winters worth of energy to store!

I estimate that 3 moths of 10GW over the whole winter has the energy of
400 Hiroshima bombs. Just hope it doesn't let go all at once.


Bill


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

dennis@home wrote:


"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

"excess energy generated from renewables. "


It's a method of storing energy created at a time when it isn't needed
until it is in the short term. And the efficiency is said to possibly be
able to approach that of a rechargeable battery. But I dunno how
practical
it is - pumping water up to the top of a hill and using that to run a
hydro electric system has its problems too.

But renewables don't generate excess energy. Even with all renewables
going full tilt (which is unusual) the total output is nowhere near
the UK's lowest demand figure. So if the energy from renewables was
used at any time to power this storage scheme all it means is that
gas-fired stations would have to work a bit harder.

Renewables are erratic, if you can use the energy storage system to
absorb the peaks and troughs it will probably make renewables useful.

Nothing can make reneables useful

What's the energy density of liquid air? Does it make a useful fuel for
cars/lorries?
No.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 02 Oct 2012 13:59:24 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

"excess energy generated from renewables. "

hahahaha ROFLMAO.

Well yes. Would get rid of the stupid "we don't want your power but we'll
still pay you your well above market price". Every wind farm has to have
a liquid air plant (paid for by the wind co) to even out the
supply/demand problem.

" this process is only 25% efficient but it is massively improved by
co-siting the cryo-generator next to an industrial plant or power
station producing low-grade heat that is currently vented and being
released into the atmosphere"

So like all renewables it depends on cheap fossil fuel to work.:-)

More green pie in the sky.

But look at it another way instead of having to throttle your fossil
plants up and down with demand which isn't very effcient you can run them
with a steady throttle and dump to (or take) from the liquid air energy
bank to meet demand fluctuations and you have the waste heat from the
power station to help.


At 25% turnaround efficiency its still more fuel efficient to dispatch
the power stations

I'm also wondering what the energy density of liquid air is. Could it
become a replacement for diesel/petrol in smaller vehicles? We seem to be
able to handle LPG safely enough and that is flamable, liquid air is well
air... I can see problems in winter though with frozen "radiators" (aka
heat absorbers) to provide the energy for the phase change.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

dennis@home wrote:


"Tim Streater" wrote in message
...
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

I'm also wondering what the energy density of liquid air is. Could it
become a replacement for diesel/petrol in smaller vehicles? We seem
to be able to handle LPG safely enough and that is flamable, liquid
air is well air... I can see problems in winter though with frozen
"radiators" (aka heat absorbers) to provide the energy for the phase
change.

Well you're not burning the air unlike LPG - and for LPG you already
need a largish tank. And what are the wind farm people expecting to do
with the liquid air? Not, I hope, piping it anywhere. Are they just
expecting to have yet more expensive equipment at the site of the wind
farm with a low load factor?

Put the plant next to nuclear stations.
then they can use the waste heat to boil the air.
Think of how much better that makes nuclear power. ;-)
Commercially it simply reduces the profit. Uranium is dirt cheap. So
adding capital expense to reduce something that costs little doesn't
gain you any thing in emissions which are zero, or profit. In fact it
costs you money.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

In message , Tim
Streater writes
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

I'm also wondering what the energy density of liquid air is. Could it
become a replacement for diesel/petrol in smaller vehicles? We seem to
be able to handle LPG safely enough and that is flamable, liquid air
is well air... I can see problems in winter though with frozen
"radiators" (aka heat absorbers) to provide the energy for the phase


Well you're not burning the air unlike LPG - and for LPG you already
need a largish tank. And what are the wind farm people expecting to do
with the liquid air? Not, I hope, piping it anywhere. Are they just
expecting to have yet more expensive equipment at the site of the wind
farm with a low load factor?

Err, well, ... duh

you point it at the windmills and hey presto - perpetual motion


--
geoff