Hi,

Any help gratefully accepted!

I've been trying to attach a speaker bracket to a wall in the house
(1895ish Victoria terrace). The wall is the main front wall of the
house, so is presumably brick and plaster. I think some of the top layer
is probably lime plaster, as it looks like it, though we recently had it
reskimmed with pink and redecorated.

Pic of speaker and bracket:
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7264/imag0259x.jpg

Pic of wall: http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/323/imag0258m.jpg

When I was drilling the holes for this, the top inch or so did seem
kinda crumbly and the drill was making larger holes than intended! The
presence of the occasional pebble in the mixture also helped the drill
veer somewhat. It was fixed up there with the supplied screws and wall
plugs (and I used the 6mm drill bit suggested in the instructions).

Close up pic of damage (you can see another pebble there):
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1594/imag0260g.jpg

So basically, the bracket (and speaker) fell off the wall within a
minute of being put up. Obviously, as well as patching up the walls, I
still need to get the bracket up there and keep it up!

Does anyone have any suggestions on what filler and/or fixings to use? I
could either use holes in the same locations again or go a couple of
inches in either direction if new holes are a better idea.

I wouldn't mind quite so much if we hadn't just paid to have the room
reskimmed and and decorated. (And there was me thinking the lath and
plaster wall would be the difficult one - but I found the stud :-)

Cheers for any help!

Dave

On Aug 31, 9:33*pm, Dave Newt wrote:
Any help gratefully accepted!

Bosch Multi-Construction drills, used without hammer, will go through
fragile plaster without smashing lumps out. You can also use them with
hammer to drill bricks (although an SDS is better).

Drill a hole, maybe oversize, through the plaster. Then drill the
brick to the right size for the plugs. Use a fairly soft plug, like a
Rawl Uno. Push these deep enough into the hole that they're _entirely_
within the brick. If the plugs aren't below the plaster, then then
they expand sideways, they'll either break the plaster, or they'll
grip it so tightly that they pull it off the bricks when loaded. (One
of these seems to have happened here, but it's hard to tell which.)
Then use long enough screws to reach the deep plugs.

On Friday, 31 August 2012 21:33:57 UTC+1, Dave Newt wrote:
Hi,



Any help gratefully accepted!



I've been trying to attach a speaker bracket to a wall in the house

(1895ish Victoria terrace). The wall is the main front wall of the

house, so is presumably brick and plaster. I think some of the top layer

is probably lime plaster, as it looks like it, though we recently had it

reskimmed with pink and redecorated.



Pic of speaker and bracket:

http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7264/imag0259x.jpg



Pic of wall: http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/323/imag0258m.jpg



When I was drilling the holes for this, the top inch or so did seem

kinda crumbly and the drill was making larger holes than intended! The

presence of the occasional pebble in the mixture also helped the drill

veer somewhat. It was fixed up there with the supplied screws and wall

plugs (and I used the 6mm drill bit suggested in the instructions).



Close up pic of damage (you can see another pebble there):

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1594/imag0260g.jpg



So basically, the bracket (and speaker) fell off the wall within a

minute of being put up. Obviously, as well as patching up the walls, I

still need to get the bracket up there and keep it up!



Does anyone have any suggestions on what filler and/or fixings to use? I

could either use holes in the same locations again or go a couple of

inches in either direction if new holes are a better idea.



I wouldn't mind quite so much if we hadn't just paid to have the room

reskimmed and and decorated. (And there was me thinking the lath and

plaster wall would be the difficult one - but I found the stud :-)



Cheers for any help!



Dave

Another method is to chop away the grotty plaster and fix a piece of wood to the brick, using several screws. This way you decide where the screws go, into the brick and not into the cement between the bricks. (Which could happen if you're trying to match up the holes in the bracket). Then it's easy to screw you TV bracket into the wood.

Richard

Dave Newt wrote:
Hi,

Any help gratefully accepted!

I've been trying to attach a speaker bracket to a wall in the house
(1895ish Victoria terrace). The wall is the main front wall of the
house, so is presumably brick and plaster. I think some of the top layer
is probably lime plaster, as it looks like it, though we recently had it
reskimmed with pink and redecorated.

Pic of speaker and bracket:
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7264/imag0259x.jpg

Pic of wall: http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/323/imag0258m.jpg

When I was drilling the holes for this, the top inch or so did seem
kinda crumbly and the drill was making larger holes than intended! The
presence of the occasional pebble in the mixture also helped the drill
veer somewhat. It was fixed up there with the supplied screws and wall
plugs (and I used the 6mm drill bit suggested in the instructions).

Close up pic of damage (you can see another pebble there):
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1594/imag0260g.jpg

So basically, the bracket (and speaker) fell off the wall within a
minute of being put up. Obviously, as well as patching up the walls, I
still need to get the bracket up there and keep it up!

Does anyone have any suggestions on what filler and/or fixings to use? I
could either use holes in the same locations again or go a couple of
inches in either direction if new holes are a better idea.

I wouldn't mind quite so much if we hadn't just paid to have the room
reskimmed and and decorated. (And there was me thinking the lath and
plaster wall would be the difficult one - but I found the stud :-)

Cheers for any help!

Dave

Try drilling deeper and see if it gets more solid and use long fixings.

On 01/09/2012 04:12, F Murtz wrote:
Dave Newt wrote:
Hi,

Any help gratefully accepted!

I've been trying to attach a speaker bracket to a wall in the house
(1895ish Victoria terrace). The wall is the main front wall of the
house, so is presumably brick and plaster. I think some of the top layer
is probably lime plaster, as it looks like it, though we recently had it
reskimmed with pink and redecorated.

Pic of speaker and bracket:
http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7264/imag0259x.jpg

Pic of wall: http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/323/imag0258m.jpg

When I was drilling the holes for this, the top inch or so did seem
kinda crumbly and the drill was making larger holes than intended! The
presence of the occasional pebble in the mixture also helped the drill
veer somewhat. It was fixed up there with the supplied screws and wall
plugs (and I used the 6mm drill bit suggested in the instructions).

Close up pic of damage (you can see another pebble there):
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1594/imag0260g.jpg

So basically, the bracket (and speaker) fell off the wall within a
minute of being put up. Obviously, as well as patching up the walls, I
still need to get the bracket up there and keep it up!

Does anyone have any suggestions on what filler and/or fixings to use? I
could either use holes in the same locations again or go a couple of
inches in either direction if new holes are a better idea.

I wouldn't mind quite so much if we hadn't just paid to have the room
reskimmed and and decorated. (And there was me thinking the lath and
plaster wall would be the difficult one - but I found the stud :-)

Cheers for any help!

Dave

Try drilling deeper and see if it gets more solid and use long fixings.

I keep a large stock of 3 (or is it 4) mm masonry bits. If the hole is
sound it gets enlarged to 6mm or whatever. No hammer action to start
with. IME some cheap drills wobble under pressure, even if the bit
appears to rotate normally

On 31/08/2012 22:44, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Aug 31, 9:33 pm, Dave Newt wrote:
Any help gratefully accepted!

Bosch Multi-Construction drills, used without hammer, will go through
fragile plaster without smashing lumps out. You can also use them with
hammer to drill bricks (although an SDS is better).

Drill a hole, maybe oversize, through the plaster. Then drill the
brick to the right size for the plugs. Use a fairly soft plug, like a
Rawl Uno. Push these deep enough into the hole that they're _entirely_
within the brick. If the plugs aren't below the plaster, then then
they expand sideways, they'll either break the plaster, or they'll
grip it so tightly that they pull it off the bricks when loaded. (One
of these seems to have happened here, but it's hard to tell which.)
Then use long enough screws to reach the deep plugs.

AOL

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Aug 31, 9:33*pm, Dave Newt wrote:
Hi,

Any help gratefully accepted!

I've been trying to attach a speaker bracket to a wall in the house
(1895ish Victoria terrace). The wall is the main front wall of the
house, so is presumably brick and plaster. I think some of the top layer
is probably lime plaster, as it looks like it, though we recently had it
reskimmed with pink and redecorated.

Pic of speaker and bracket:http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7264/imag0259x.jpg

Pic of wall:http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/323/imag0258m.jpg

When I was drilling the holes for this, the top inch or so did seem
kinda crumbly and the drill was making larger holes than intended! The
presence of the occasional pebble in the mixture also helped the drill
veer somewhat. It was fixed up there with the supplied screws and wall
plugs (and I used the 6mm drill bit suggested in the instructions).

Close up pic of damage (you can see another pebble there):http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1594/imag0260g.jpg

So basically, the bracket (and speaker) fell off the wall within a
minute of being put up. Obviously, as well as patching up the walls, I
still need to get the bracket up there and keep it up!

Does anyone have any suggestions on what filler and/or fixings to use? I
could either use holes in the same locations again or go a couple of
inches in either direction if new holes are a better idea.

I wouldn't mind quite so much if we hadn't just paid to have the room
reskimmed and and decorated. (And there was me thinking the lath and
plaster wall would be the difficult one - but I found the stud :-)

Cheers for any help!

Dave

Use frame fixings intended for door and window frames. They are around
4"/100mm long

On 01/09/2012 09:40, harry wrote:
On Aug 31, 9:33 pm, Dave Newt wrote:
Hi,

Any help gratefully accepted!

I've been trying to attach a speaker bracket to a wall in the house
(1895ish Victoria terrace). The wall is the main front wall of the
house, so is presumably brick and plaster. I think some of the top layer
is probably lime plaster, as it looks like it, though we recently had it
reskimmed with pink and redecorated.

Pic of speaker and bracket:http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/7264/imag0259x.jpg

Pic of wall:http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/323/imag0258m.jpg

When I was drilling the holes for this, the top inch or so did seem
kinda crumbly and the drill was making larger holes than intended! The
presence of the occasional pebble in the mixture also helped the drill
veer somewhat. It was fixed up there with the supplied screws and wall
plugs (and I used the 6mm drill bit suggested in the instructions).

Close up pic of damage (you can see another pebble there):http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1594/imag0260g.jpg

So basically, the bracket (and speaker) fell off the wall within a
minute of being put up. Obviously, as well as patching up the walls, I
still need to get the bracket up there and keep it up!

Does anyone have any suggestions on what filler and/or fixings to use? I
could either use holes in the same locations again or go a couple of
inches in either direction if new holes are a better idea.

I wouldn't mind quite so much if we hadn't just paid to have the room
reskimmed and and decorated. (And there was me thinking the lath and
plaster wall would be the difficult one - but I found the stud :-)

Cheers for any help!

Dave

Use frame fixings intended for door and window frames. They are around
4"/100mm long

I often do just that, but replace the screw with a normal one. The
screws in frame/hammer fixings are often ribbed rather than threaded.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In article ,
Dave Newt wrote:
Does anyone have any suggestions on what filler and/or fixings to use? I
could either use holes in the same locations again or go a couple of
inches in either direction if new holes are a better idea.

I tend to use Rawlbolts. They expand further than any wall plug I've come
across so will usually grip even if you've hit the soft mortar between
brick courses. Much more expensive than screws and plugs - but IMHO worth
it for something near guaranteed to get a good fixing.

--
*I took an IQ test and the results were negative.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 31/08/2012 21:34, Dave Newt wrote:

Does anyone have any suggestions on what filler and/or fixings to use? I
could either use holes in the same locations again or go a couple of
inches in either direction if new holes are a better idea.

Thanks, everyone, for the comments - really helpful.

I think drilling deeper and using longer fixings is the only way forward
(with or without using a piece of wood between the bracket and the
wall). I'll go have a look at some fixings today and see what I can find.

I've just had another close up look at the holes and the deepest is a
good 2 inches deep, and yet still no sign of brick whatsoever! The
biggest difficulty so far is all the stones mixed in with the plaster,
which make the drill just go off course before you even know what has
happened. (Another advantage of using the piece of wood, as the
positions of the holes won't be so critical...)

Anyway, will see how I go. Will have to fix up the mess of the wall
after too...

Cheers! d

On 31/08/2012 22:44, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Aug 31, 9:33 pm, Dave Newt wrote:
Any help gratefully accepted!

Bosch Multi-Construction drills, used without hammer, will go through
fragile plaster without smashing lumps out. You can also use them with
hammer to drill bricks (although an SDS is better).

Drill a hole, maybe oversize, through the plaster. Then drill the
brick to the right size for the plugs. Use a fairly soft plug, like a
Rawl Uno. Push these deep enough into the hole that they're _entirely_
within the brick. If the plugs aren't below the plaster, then then
they expand sideways, they'll either break the plaster, or they'll
grip it so tightly that they pull it off the bricks when loaded. (One
of these seems to have happened here, but it's hard to tell which.)
Then use long enough screws to reach the deep plugs.


Would these make any sense, do you think?

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs...umber =711213

Also, if I just used a shorter plug into the brick, I'm not sure how I'd
best fill the larger hole (ie where the plaster has been pulled off when
the bracket fell). If I fill it first, then I'll be back to guessing
whether I've got the plug into the brick, but on the other hand it
sounds a bit clumsy to put the filler in afterwards around the screw/plug...

On 02/09/2012 20:39, Dave Newt wrote:
On 31/08/2012 22:44, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Aug 31, 9:33 pm, Dave Newt wrote:
Any help gratefully accepted!

Bosch Multi-Construction drills, used without hammer, will go through
fragile plaster without smashing lumps out. You can also use them with
hammer to drill bricks (although an SDS is better).

Drill a hole, maybe oversize, through the plaster. Then drill the
brick to the right size for the plugs. Use a fairly soft plug, like a
Rawl Uno. Push these deep enough into the hole that they're _entirely_
within the brick. If the plugs aren't below the plaster, then then
they expand sideways, they'll either break the plaster, or they'll
grip it so tightly that they pull it off the bricks when loaded. (One
of these seems to have happened here, but it's hard to tell which.)
Then use long enough screws to reach the deep plugs.


Would these make any sense, do you think?

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs...umber =711213

'Kinell! £6:49 for a pack of 8 FFS?

Pack of 10 for 80p from Toolsatan.

Ten times the bloody price. Homobase are rip off merchants big time.


Also, if I just used a shorter plug into the brick, I'm not sure how I'd
best fill the larger hole (ie where the plaster has been pulled off when
the bracket fell). If I fill it first, then I'll be back to guessing
whether I've got the plug into the brick, but on the other hand it
sounds a bit clumsy to put the filler in afterwards around the
screw/plug...

Plug first, fill after.
--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 02/09/2012 13:22, Dave Newt wrote:
On 31/08/2012 21:34, Dave Newt wrote:

Does anyone have any suggestions on what filler and/or fixings to use? I
could either use holes in the same locations again or go a couple of
inches in either direction if new holes are a better idea.

Thanks, everyone, for the comments - really helpful.

I think drilling deeper and using longer fixings is the only way forward
(with or without using a piece of wood between the bracket and the
wall). I'll go have a look at some fixings today and see what I can find.

I've just had another close up look at the holes and the deepest is a
good 2 inches deep, and yet still no sign of brick whatsoever! The
biggest difficulty so far is all the stones mixed in with the plaster,
which make the drill just go off course before you even know what has
happened. (Another advantage of using the piece of wood, as the
positions of the holes won't be so critical...)

Anyway, will see how I go. Will have to fix up the mess of the wall
after too...

Make your life easier by getting some lightweight filler

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Pain.../sd3169/p20822


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 02/09/2012 21:49, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 02/09/2012 13:22, Dave Newt wrote:
On 31/08/2012 21:34, Dave Newt wrote:

Does anyone have any suggestions on what filler and/or fixings to use? I
could either use holes in the same locations again or go a couple of
inches in either direction if new holes are a better idea.

Thanks, everyone, for the comments - really helpful.

I think drilling deeper and using longer fixings is the only way forward
(with or without using a piece of wood between the bracket and the
wall). I'll go have a look at some fixings today and see what I can find.

I've just had another close up look at the holes and the deepest is a
good 2 inches deep, and yet still no sign of brick whatsoever! The
biggest difficulty so far is all the stones mixed in with the plaster,
which make the drill just go off course before you even know what has
happened. (Another advantage of using the piece of wood, as the
positions of the holes won't be so critical...)

Anyway, will see how I go. Will have to fix up the mess of the wall
after too...

Make your life easier by getting some lightweight filler

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Pain.../sd3169/p20822



Kinell, just realised how cheap that is From Toolsatan. I'll buy it
there in future.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 02/09/2012 21:48, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 02/09/2012 20:39, Dave Newt wrote:
On 31/08/2012 22:44, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Aug 31, 9:33 pm, Dave Newt wrote:
Any help gratefully accepted!

Bosch Multi-Construction drills, used without hammer, will go through
fragile plaster without smashing lumps out. You can also use them with
hammer to drill bricks (although an SDS is better).

Drill a hole, maybe oversize, through the plaster. Then drill the
brick to the right size for the plugs. Use a fairly soft plug, like a
Rawl Uno. Push these deep enough into the hole that they're _entirely_
within the brick. If the plugs aren't below the plaster, then then
they expand sideways, they'll either break the plaster, or they'll
grip it so tightly that they pull it off the bricks when loaded. (One
of these seems to have happened here, but it's hard to tell which.)
Then use long enough screws to reach the deep plugs.


Would these make any sense, do you think?

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs...umber =711213


'Kinell! £6:49 for a pack of 8 FFS?

Pack of 10 for 80p from Toolsatan.

Ten times the bloody price. Homobase are rip off merchants big time.

Sure, I saw cheaper ones after I posted that, but is that the sort of
thing that I could use for this? Sorry, but I'm quite amateur :-)

Also, if I just used a shorter plug into the brick, I'm not sure how I'd
best fill the larger hole (ie where the plaster has been pulled off when
the bracket fell). If I fill it first, then I'll be back to guessing
whether I've got the plug into the brick, but on the other hand it
sounds a bit clumsy to put the filler in afterwards around the
screw/plug...

Plug first, fill after.

Ta.

On Sun, 02 Sep 2012 21:48:00 +0100, The Medway Handyman
wrote:


Pack of 10 for 80p from Toolsatan.

I Read That As (IRTA) "from Todmorden".

--
Frank Erskine

On Sep 2, 8:39*pm, Dave Newt wrote:
Would these make any sense, do you think?

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs...ductDisplay?la...

No idea, I haven't looked.

....but if it's from Homebase, they'll be at least four times what you
ought to be paying, from Toolstation or Screwfix.

On 03/09/2012 03:02, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Sep 2, 8:39 pm, Dave Newt wrote:
Would these make any sense, do you think?

http://www.homebase.co.uk/webapp/wcs...ductDisplay?la...

No idea, I haven't looked.

...but if it's from Homebase, they'll be at least four times what you
ought to be paying, from Toolstation or Screwfix.

Yes indeed - I just wanted to know if that was even an appropriate
fixing for the job? It was just a more helpful photo than the one on the
screwfix site.

In article ,
Dave Newt wrote:
...but if it's from Homebase, they'll be at least four times what you
ought to be paying, from Toolstation or Screwfix.

Yes indeed - I just wanted to know if that was even an appropriate
fixing for the job? It was just a more helpful photo than the one on the
screwfix site.

I've already said fixings of the Rawlbolt type are best as they expand
more than any wall plug/screw. They are more expensive - but you tend to
get what you pay for. They are also good in that you can remove the
fitting easily for re-decoration, etc.

--
*I went to school to become a wit, only got halfway through.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Monday, September 3, 2012 10:42:21 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

Dave Newt wrote:

...but if it's from Homebase, they'll be at least four times what you

ought to be paying, from Toolstation or Screwfix.



Yes indeed - I just wanted to know if that was even an appropriate

fixing for the job? It was just a more helpful photo than the one on the

screwfix site.



I've already said fixings of the Rawlbolt type are best as they expand

more than any wall plug/screw. They are more expensive - but you tend to

get what you pay for. They are also good in that you can remove the

fitting easily for re-decoration, etc.


Sorry - that suggestion slipped my mind when I was replying.

Will take a look, thank you. Looks like my only concern will be getting one of those long enough while still being narrow enough to fit through the bracket mounting holes. The M6 70mm might just be OK...

In article ,
wrote:
Sorry - that suggestion slipped my mind when I was replying.

Will take a look, thank you. Looks like my only concern will be getting
one of those long enough while still being narrow enough to fit through
the bracket mounting holes. The M6 70mm might just be OK...


Only the bolt needs to fit the fixing holes. And you could likely enlarge
those if needed. They tend to come with bolts or studs and nuts - but you
can use longer ones if needed. I've got some M4 ones here which I use for
rads.

I realise they cost more per fixing, but a small price compared to the
cost of your expensive speakers falling off the wall taking chunks of
plaster with them.

I've used all sorts of wall fixings and still have yet to find a better
one.

--
*If you think nobody cares about you, try missing a couple of payments *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Monday, September 3, 2012 1:00:48 PM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,

wrote:

Sorry - that suggestion slipped my mind when I was replying.



Will take a look, thank you. Looks like my only concern will be getting

one of those long enough while still being narrow enough to fit through

the bracket mounting holes. The M6 70mm might just be OK...





Only the bolt needs to fit the fixing holes. And you could likely enlarge

those if needed. They tend to come with bolts or studs and nuts - but you

can use longer ones if needed. I've got some M4 ones here which I use for

rads.

Thanks! (See, this is why I was in Homebase - it's easier to make sure the bolts actually fit, something I can't easily do in places like Screwstation!)

Will deffo give this type a go I think once I've found one of the right dimensions. Would rather not try to enlarge the bracket hole if I can help it - just one more thing for me to **** up!

I realise they cost more per fixing, but a small price compared to the

cost of your expensive speakers falling off the wall taking chunks of

plaster with them.

Absolutely - after all the rewiring/plastering/decoration costs, a few quid on fixings (even at Homebase prices!) really is neither here nor there.

Thanks!

In article ,
wrote:
Only the bolt needs to fit the fixing holes. And you could likely
enlarge

those if needed. They tend to come with bolts or studs and nuts - but
you

can use longer ones if needed. I've got some M4 ones here which I use
for

rads.

Thanks! (See, this is why I was in Homebase - it's easier to make sure
the bolts actually fit, something I can't easily do in places like
Screwstation!)

True - have you a Wicks handy? They're cheaper than Homebase. Almost
anywhere is. M6 ones need a 12mm hole in the wall. They are big enough to
expand between bricks if you hit the mortar course and get a good grip
that way.
Will deffo give this type a go I think once I've found one of the right
dimensions. Would rather not try to enlarge the bracket hole if I can
help it - just one more thing for me to **** up!

--
Is the hardness of the butter proportional to the softness of the bread?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 03/09/2012 17:37, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

True - have you a Wicks handy? They're cheaper than Homebase. Almost
anywhere is. M6 ones need a 12mm hole in the wall. They are big enough to
expand between bricks if you hit the mortar course and get a good grip
that way.

The easiest one for me to get to is Screwfix - a 5 min walk from the
tube station which is half way on my journey home.

And that's what I've just done - so we'll see how it goes!

On 03/09/2012 18:59, Dave Newt wrote:
so we'll see how it goes!

To-do List:

1) Go back to Screwfix and get a 12mm drill bit.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Is the hardness of the butter proportional to the softness of the bread?*

Why do they insist on serving butter fresh from the fridge, and
thus unspreadable?

I have got used to putting the butter pat on top of the teapot
for a while, which can give you a fighting chance.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.