Green Deal - anyone worked out the up/downside yet?
 

The proposed Green Deal
http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cm...reen_deal.aspx
"The Energy Bill introduced to Parliament on 8 December 2010 includes
provision for a new "Green Deal". which we believe will revolutionise the
energy efficiency of British properties. The Government is establishing a
framework to enable private firms to offer consumers energy efficiency
improvements to their homes, community spaces and businesses at no upfront
cost, and recoup payments through a charge in instalments on the energy
bill."

This sounds remarkably similar to the deal where you rent your roof out - no
upfront cost but the proceeds go to a third party and the deal stays with
the house.

I assume that it would only be a better deal if you could expect to pay off
the loan and then start keeping any proceeds for yourself. Nominal payback
for self financing photo-voltaic seems to be around the 7-10 year mark (from
illustrations given to friends).

We are being tempted by the dark side through the gross subsidy currently
available for photo-voltaic installations so are obviously wondering if it
would be better to wait for a freebie loan.

However apart from the free electricity around noon in summer (when we don't
usually use very much) there doesn't seem to be much benefit, and if all the
potential savings on your electricity bill are immediately taken to repay
the loan then I can't initially see this as a major attraction.

I may well be missing a point here; what does the team think?

There are a range of options, but our house is double glazed, cavity wall
insulated, and the loft insulation is reasonable given that we have a chip
board floor over insulation. So not much room for improvement there.
The only thing left seems to be photo-voltaic generation and a more
efficient boiler.
Oh, and some minor(ish) things like floor insulation and more efficient
energy use.
Would they cough for a new fridge, washing machine and telly?

I note that the assesment will be based around Energy Performance
Certificates.
Perhaps an attempt to use the people trained at their own expense to be HIPS
assesors?
Although to be a Green Deal assesor will require extra training.
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." perhaps?

The proposed list in
http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/W...deal-cover.pdf
is interesting as it includes more efficient water usage, floor insulation,
lighting etc.

However the final list isn't due for a while, and if you have an assesment
it may well decide that there are no cost effective measures to justify the
finance.

Cheers

Dave R

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

Green Deal - anyone worked out the up/downside yet?
 

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...
The proposed Green Deal
http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cm...reen_deal.aspx
"The Energy Bill introduced to Parliament on 8 December 2010 includes
provision for a new "Green Deal". which we believe will revolutionise the
energy efficiency of British properties. The Government is establishing a
framework to enable private firms to offer consumers energy efficiency
improvements to their homes, community spaces and businesses at no upfront
cost, and recoup payments through a charge in instalments on the energy
bill."

This sounds remarkably similar to the deal where you rent your roof out -
no upfront cost but the proceeds go to a third party and the deal stays
with the house.

It's only partly similar

Firstly there is no subsidy involved here and secondly the loans are to be
made on "normal" commercial terms with the only difference being that they
are tied to the house, rather than the occupant.

But there's no guarantee that the nominal saving on the bill will repay the
loans and the risk of them no doing so rests with the occupant.

Personally, I can't see too many people being prepared to buy a house with
someone else's loan still in situ, they will expect it to be paid off by the
outgoing owner and in the rental sector I can see problems with people not
being told about these loans at all (until it is too late). ISTM that there
is potential for abuse by LLs using utility company loans to pay for house
improvements, charging a higher rent because of those improvements and then
having the (sucession of) tenants pay back the loan as well.

ISTM that they will only be useful for the (very) small number of people who
want to do improvements that they reasonably expect to fully pay back
themselves, but can't fund any other way. The idea (as in the article) that
all 26 million households will take advantage of this is ludicrous.

(And I'm assuming in the above that HMG will make sure that the existence of
these loans doesn't affect, in any way, an occupants right to a free market
choice of supplier, something which as yet, I've not seen them say)

tim

Green Deal - anyone worked out the up/downside yet?
 

"tim...." wrote in message
...

"David WE Roberts" wrote in message
...
The proposed Green Deal
http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cm...reen_deal.aspx
"The Energy Bill introduced to Parliament on 8 December 2010 includes
provision for a new "Green Deal". which we believe will revolutionise the
energy efficiency of British properties. The Government is establishing a
framework to enable private firms to offer consumers energy efficiency
improvements to their homes, community spaces and businesses at no
upfront cost, and recoup payments through a charge in instalments on the
energy bill."

This sounds remarkably similar to the deal where you rent your roof out -
no upfront cost but the proceeds go to a third party and the deal stays
with the house.

It's only partly similar

Firstly there is no subsidy involved here and secondly the loans are to be
made on "normal" commercial terms with the only difference being that they
are tied to the house, rather than the occupant.

But there's no guarantee that the nominal saving on the bill will repay
the loans and the risk of them no doing so rests with the occupant.

Personally, I can't see too many people being prepared to buy a house with
someone else's loan still in situ, they will expect it to be paid off by
the outgoing owner and in the rental sector I can see problems with people
not being told about these loans at all (until it is too late). ISTM that
there is potential for abuse by LLs using utility company loans to pay for
house improvements, charging a higher rent because of those improvements
and then having the (sucession of) tenants pay back the loan as well.

Replying to my own post I should have read all the documents first.

It seems that they have thought of this and will requite LLs to gain
explicit confirmation from tenants that they are aware of the loan. I'm
impressed, I bet it wasn't in the first draft :-). Nevertheless, I can
still see tenants being reluctant to take on this liability.

Green Deal - anyone worked out the up/downside yet?
 

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 04/06/2011 12:50, David WE Roberts wrote:

The proposed Green Deal
http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cm...reen_deal.aspx

"The Energy Bill introduced to Parliament on 8 December 2010 includes
provision for a new "Green Deal". which we believe will revolutionise
the energy efficiency of British properties. The Government is
establishing a framework to enable private firms to offer consumers
energy efficiency improvements to their homes, community spaces and
businesses at no upfront cost, and recoup payments through a charge in
instalments on the energy bill."

This sounds remarkably similar to the deal where you rent your roof out
- no upfront cost but the proceeds go to a third party and the deal
stays with the house.

Not quire - in the sense that there are no artificial incentives to make
non economic or environmentally unsound options desirable. This seems to
be "markets" led solution and hence a far more sustainable one.

massive snip

In the bits I skimmed I didn't see anything to suggest that you couldn't
participate in the subsidised photo-voltaic scheme.
The rates are due to go down over the years but AFAIK you will still be able
to get a feed in tarrif in 2012.
It doesn't seem equitable that you can get the PV scheme for cash or use
your own loan but not use the Green Deal loan.
This makes the scheme far less attractive.
I would have expected that a lot of any calculated payback would come from
PV subsidy (assuming that the new rates are still reasonably attractive).

However, I did skim :-)

Cheers

Dave R
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")