On Mar 16, 3:34*am, "Ala" wrote:
"Bram" wrote in ....

But looking at the footage, when the No.3 building exploded, the fallout
didn't appear to be going out to sea. *Also, if it was a hydrogen
explosion, why was the flame orange?

Also, notice that there has been no video footage of the No.2 reactor
building exploding? *Or of the No.4 reactor on fire?

The explosions appear to be quite sequential, and therefore quite possibly
planned, as opposed to an accidental explosion, so it's more than likely
that they know what they are doing and making do with a worst case
scenario. But, the situation only escalated after all three working
reactors (out of the six) have now suffered explosions.

I don't doubt the the Japanese for their technical ability, but I also
don't feel that they are giving people the facts.

as of tonight they'd evacuated workers- Hide quoted text -


IMHO, a better way to fix it, now it seems to have got completely out
of hand, thanks to the usual 'incompetence of engineers' who designed
emergency systems that don't work in an emergency, would be:

1. Get everybody out of the plant, tell all local residents to stay
inside and close the windows, 'Protect and Survive' stylee (much
better than the daft policy of evacuating the surrounding area, which
is going to cause major problems with housing evacuees)

2. Induce intentional meltdowns in all reactors, by precision-bombing
them from the air, so that the cooling systems are completely smashed
and all coolant escapes. This would cause the fuel to melt down into
the layer of graphite provided beneath the reactors for just this
scenario, you then monitor the situation from the air with thermal
cameras etc.

3. Once the graphite has absorbed all the fuel, you really let the
site have it with large bombs, so that the graphite layer is buried
under rubble and displaced soil etc.

4. Finally you finish the job by sending men and machines in, with
appropriate NBC precautions, to entomb the whole thing in concrete.

On Mar 16, 1:24*pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 16, 3:34*am, "Ala" wrote:





"Bram" wrote in ....

But looking at the footage, when the No.3 building exploded, the fallout
didn't appear to be going out to sea. *Also, if it was a hydrogen
explosion, why was the flame orange?

Also, notice that there has been no video footage of the No.2 reactor
building exploding? *Or of the No.4 reactor on fire?

The explosions appear to be quite sequential, and therefore quite possibly
planned, as opposed to an accidental explosion, so it's more than likely
that they know what they are doing and making do with a worst case
scenario. But, the situation only escalated after all three working
reactors (out of the six) have now suffered explosions.

I don't doubt the the Japanese for their technical ability, but I also
don't feel that they are giving people the facts.

as of tonight they'd evacuated workers- Hide quoted text -

IMHO, a better way to fix it, now it seems to have got completely out
of hand, thanks to the usual 'incompetence of engineers' who designed
emergency systems that don't work in an emergency, would be:

1. Get everybody out of the plant, tell all local residents to stay
inside and close the windows, 'Protect and Survive' stylee (much
better than the daft policy of evacuating the surrounding area, which
is going to cause major problems with housing evacuees)

2. Induce *intentional meltdowns in all reactors, by precision-bombing
them from the air, so that the cooling systems are completely smashed
and all coolant escapes. This would cause the fuel to melt down into
the layer of graphite provided beneath the reactors for just this
scenario, you then monitor the situation from the air with thermal
cameras etc.

3. Once the graphite has absorbed all the fuel, you really let the
site have it with large bombs, so that the graphite layer is buried
under rubble and displaced soil etc.

4. Finally you finish the job by sending men and machines in, with
appropriate NBC precautions, to entomb the whole thing in concrete.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

BTW, does the 'exploding reactor' footage remind anybody of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW6OrdLkCLU

( 1 min 28 sec in)

Somebody who knows how to do this sort of thing should mash the two
up...

wrote:
On Mar 16, 1:24 pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 16, 3:34 am, "Ala" wrote:





"Bram" wrote in ...
But looking at the footage, when the No.3 building exploded, the fallout
didn't appear to be going out to sea. Also, if it was a hydrogen
explosion, why was the flame orange?
Also, notice that there has been no video footage of the No.2 reactor
building exploding? Or of the No.4 reactor on fire?
The explosions appear to be quite sequential, and therefore quite possibly
planned, as opposed to an accidental explosion, so it's more than likely
that they know what they are doing and making do with a worst case
scenario. But, the situation only escalated after all three working
reactors (out of the six) have now suffered explosions.
I don't doubt the the Japanese for their technical ability, but I also
don't feel that they are giving people the facts.
as of tonight they'd evacuated workers- Hide quoted text -
IMHO, a better way to fix it, now it seems to have got completely out
of hand, thanks to the usual 'incompetence of engineers' who designed
emergency systems that don't work in an emergency, would be:

1. Get everybody out of the plant, tell all local residents to stay
inside and close the windows, 'Protect and Survive' stylee (much
better than the daft policy of evacuating the surrounding area, which
is going to cause major problems with housing evacuees)

2. Induce intentional meltdowns in all reactors, by precision-bombing
them from the air, so that the cooling systems are completely smashed
and all coolant escapes. This would cause the fuel to melt down into
the layer of graphite provided beneath the reactors for just this
scenario, you then monitor the situation from the air with thermal
cameras etc.

3. Once the graphite has absorbed all the fuel, you really let the
site have it with large bombs, so that the graphite layer is buried
under rubble and displaced soil etc.

4. Finally you finish the job by sending men and machines in, with
appropriate NBC precautions, to entomb the whole thing in concrete.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

BTW, does the 'exploding reactor' footage remind anybody of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW6OrdLkCLU

( 1 min 28 sec in)

Somebody who knows how to do this sort of thing should mash the two
up...


What surprised me, was the apparent vulnerability of the standby power,
unless there was more to the loss of coolant circulation than I've
understood!

On 16/03/2011 14:28, Andy Cap wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 16, 1:24 pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 16, 3:34 am, "Ala" wrote:





"Bram" wrote in
...
But looking at the footage, when the No.3 building exploded, the
fallout
didn't appear to be going out to sea. Also, if it was a hydrogen
explosion, why was the flame orange?
Also, notice that there has been no video footage of the No.2 reactor
building exploding? Or of the No.4 reactor on fire?
The explosions appear to be quite sequential, and therefore quite
possibly
planned, as opposed to an accidental explosion, so it's more than
likely
that they know what they are doing and making do with a worst case
scenario. But, the situation only escalated after all three working
reactors (out of the six) have now suffered explosions.
I don't doubt the the Japanese for their technical ability, but I also
don't feel that they are giving people the facts.
as of tonight they'd evacuated workers- Hide quoted text -
IMHO, a better way to fix it, now it seems to have got completely out
of hand, thanks to the usual 'incompetence of engineers' who designed
emergency systems that don't work in an emergency, would be:

1. Get everybody out of the plant, tell all local residents to stay
inside and close the windows, 'Protect and Survive' stylee (much
better than the daft policy of evacuating the surrounding area, which
is going to cause major problems with housing evacuees)

2. Induce intentional meltdowns in all reactors, by precision-bombing
them from the air, so that the cooling systems are completely smashed
and all coolant escapes. This would cause the fuel to melt down into
the layer of graphite provided beneath the reactors for just this
scenario, you then monitor the situation from the air with thermal
cameras etc.

3. Once the graphite has absorbed all the fuel, you really let the
site have it with large bombs, so that the graphite layer is buried
under rubble and displaced soil etc.

4. Finally you finish the job by sending men and machines in, with
appropriate NBC precautions, to entomb the whole thing in concrete.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

BTW, does the 'exploding reactor' footage remind anybody of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW6OrdLkCLU

( 1 min 28 sec in)

Somebody who knows how to do this sort of thing should mash the two
up...


What surprised me, was the apparent vulnerability of the standby power,
unless there was more to the loss of coolant circulation than I've
understood!

The emergency systems withstood an earthquake five times as powerful as
they were designed for and worked perfectly afterwards. The reactors
shut down exactly as planned. However, the core remains hot for some
days afterwards and, on this design, that needs pumped coolant. To
provide that, there were generators, backup generators and backup
battery power. The generators worked as planned, until the tsunami hit.
They were designed to withstand a wave the height of a house, but the
one that hit was too high. It knocked out the generators and the backup
generators, but the batteries continued to run the systems for eight
hours, as planned. The problem came in getting the fourth level of
backup - mobile generators - into operation within the eight hours the
batteries gave them. Given the circumstances, it is more surprising
everything worked as well as it did.

Colin BIgnell

Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 16/03/2011 14:28, Andy Cap wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 16, 1:24 pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 16, 3:34 am, "Ala" wrote:





"Bram" wrote in
...
But looking at the footage, when the No.3 building exploded, the
fallout
didn't appear to be going out to sea. Also, if it was a hydrogen
explosion, why was the flame orange?
Also, notice that there has been no video footage of the No.2 reactor
building exploding? Or of the No.4 reactor on fire?
The explosions appear to be quite sequential, and therefore quite
possibly
planned, as opposed to an accidental explosion, so it's more than
likely
that they know what they are doing and making do with a worst case
scenario. But, the situation only escalated after all three working
reactors (out of the six) have now suffered explosions.
I don't doubt the the Japanese for their technical ability, but I
also
don't feel that they are giving people the facts.
as of tonight they'd evacuated workers- Hide quoted text -
IMHO, a better way to fix it, now it seems to have got completely out
of hand, thanks to the usual 'incompetence of engineers' who designed
emergency systems that don't work in an emergency, would be:

1. Get everybody out of the plant, tell all local residents to stay
inside and close the windows, 'Protect and Survive' stylee (much
better than the daft policy of evacuating the surrounding area, which
is going to cause major problems with housing evacuees)

2. Induce intentional meltdowns in all reactors, by precision-bombing
them from the air, so that the cooling systems are completely smashed
and all coolant escapes. This would cause the fuel to melt down into
the layer of graphite provided beneath the reactors for just this
scenario, you then monitor the situation from the air with thermal
cameras etc.

3. Once the graphite has absorbed all the fuel, you really let the
site have it with large bombs, so that the graphite layer is buried
under rubble and displaced soil etc.

4. Finally you finish the job by sending men and machines in, with
appropriate NBC precautions, to entomb the whole thing in concrete.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

BTW, does the 'exploding reactor' footage remind anybody of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW6OrdLkCLU

( 1 min 28 sec in)

Somebody who knows how to do this sort of thing should mash the two
up...


What surprised me, was the apparent vulnerability of the standby power,
unless there was more to the loss of coolant circulation than I've
understood!

The emergency systems withstood an earthquake five times as powerful as
they were designed for and worked perfectly afterwards. The reactors
shut down exactly as planned. However, the core remains hot for some
days afterwards and, on this design, that needs pumped coolant. To
provide that, there were generators, backup generators and backup
battery power. The generators worked as planned, until the tsunami hit.
They were designed to withstand a wave the height of a house, but the
one that hit was too high. It knocked out the generators and the backup
generators, but the batteries continued to run the systems for eight
hours, as planned. The problem came in getting the fourth level of
backup - mobile generators - into operation within the eight hours the
batteries gave them. Given the circumstances, it is more surprising
everything worked as well as it did.

Colin BIgnell

Thanks for that explanation. I couldn't believe there was only one level
of backup. Looks like a higher location is in order then. Can't see us
abandoning the nuclear option whatever the present concerns.

On 16/03/2011 15:47, Andy Cap wrote:
Nightjar "cpb"@ insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 16/03/2011 14:28, Andy Cap wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 16, 1:24 pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 16, 3:34 am, "Ala" wrote:





"Bram" wrote in
...
But looking at the footage, when the No.3 building exploded, the
fallout
didn't appear to be going out to sea. Also, if it was a hydrogen
explosion, why was the flame orange?
Also, notice that there has been no video footage of the No.2
reactor
building exploding? Or of the No.4 reactor on fire?
The explosions appear to be quite sequential, and therefore quite
possibly
planned, as opposed to an accidental explosion, so it's more than
likely
that they know what they are doing and making do with a worst case
scenario. But, the situation only escalated after all three working
reactors (out of the six) have now suffered explosions.
I don't doubt the the Japanese for their technical ability, but I
also
don't feel that they are giving people the facts.
as of tonight they'd evacuated workers- Hide quoted text -
IMHO, a better way to fix it, now it seems to have got completely out
of hand, thanks to the usual 'incompetence of engineers' who designed
emergency systems that don't work in an emergency, would be:

1. Get everybody out of the plant, tell all local residents to stay
inside and close the windows, 'Protect and Survive' stylee (much
better than the daft policy of evacuating the surrounding area, which
is going to cause major problems with housing evacuees)

2. Induce intentional meltdowns in all reactors, by precision-bombing
them from the air, so that the cooling systems are completely smashed
and all coolant escapes. This would cause the fuel to melt down into
the layer of graphite provided beneath the reactors for just this
scenario, you then monitor the situation from the air with thermal
cameras etc.

3. Once the graphite has absorbed all the fuel, you really let the
site have it with large bombs, so that the graphite layer is buried
under rubble and displaced soil etc.

4. Finally you finish the job by sending men and machines in, with
appropriate NBC precautions, to entomb the whole thing in concrete.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

BTW, does the 'exploding reactor' footage remind anybody of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW6OrdLkCLU

( 1 min 28 sec in)

Somebody who knows how to do this sort of thing should mash the two
up...


What surprised me, was the apparent vulnerability of the standby power,
unless there was more to the loss of coolant circulation than I've
understood!

The emergency systems withstood an earthquake five times as powerful
as they were designed for and worked perfectly afterwards. The
reactors shut down exactly as planned. However, the core remains hot
for some days afterwards and, on this design, that needs pumped
coolant. To provide that, there were generators, backup generators and
backup battery power. The generators worked as planned, until the
tsunami hit. They were designed to withstand a wave the height of a
house, but the one that hit was too high. It knocked out the
generators and the backup generators, but the batteries continued to
run the systems for eight hours, as planned. The problem came in
getting the fourth level of backup - mobile generators - into
operation within the eight hours the batteries gave them. Given the
circumstances, it is more surprising everything worked as well as it did.

Colin BIgnell

Thanks for that explanation. I couldn't believe there was only one level
of backup. Looks like a higher location is in order then. Can't see us
abandoning the nuclear option whatever the present concerns.

The reason the plant was near the sea was so that any tsunami that hit
would only be water, not water plus bits of building, cars and other
assorted debris. More modern designs have, in any case, done away with
the need for pumped coolant and, hence, for the generators that were
knocked out.

Colin Bignell

On Mar 16, 3:33*pm, "Nightjar \"cpb\"@" "insertmysurnamehere wrote:
On 16/03/2011 14:28, Andy Cap wrote:





wrote:
On Mar 16, 1:24 pm, "
wrote:
On Mar 16, 3:34 am, "Ala" wrote:

"Bram" wrote in
...
But looking at the footage, when the No.3 building exploded, the
fallout
didn't appear to be going out to sea. Also, if it was a hydrogen
explosion, why was the flame orange?
Also, notice that there has been no video footage of the No.2 reactor
building exploding? Or of the No.4 reactor on fire?
The explosions appear to be quite sequential, and therefore quite
possibly
planned, as opposed to an accidental explosion, so it's more than
likely
that they know what they are doing and making do with a worst case
scenario. But, the situation only escalated after all three working
reactors (out of the six) have now suffered explosions.
I don't doubt the the Japanese for their technical ability, but I also
don't feel that they are giving people the facts.
as of tonight they'd evacuated workers- Hide quoted text -
IMHO, a better way to fix it, now it seems to have got completely out
of hand, thanks to the usual 'incompetence of engineers' who designed
emergency systems that don't work in an emergency, would be:

1. Get everybody out of the plant, tell all local residents to stay
inside and close the windows, 'Protect and Survive' stylee (much
better than the daft policy of evacuating the surrounding area, which
is going to cause major problems with housing evacuees)

2. Induce intentional meltdowns in all reactors, by precision-bombing
them from the air, so that the cooling systems are completely smashed
and all coolant escapes. This would cause the fuel to melt down into
the layer of graphite provided beneath the reactors for just this
scenario, you then monitor the situation from the air with thermal
cameras etc.

3. Once the graphite has absorbed all the fuel, you really let the
site have it with large bombs, so that the graphite layer is buried
under rubble and displaced soil etc.

4. Finally you finish the job by sending men and machines in, with
appropriate NBC precautions, to entomb the whole thing in concrete.-
Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

BTW, does the 'exploding reactor' footage remind anybody of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW6OrdLkCLU

( 1 min 28 sec in)

Somebody who knows how to do this sort of thing should mash the two
up...

What surprised me, was the apparent vulnerability of the standby power,
unless there was more to the loss of coolant circulation than I've
understood!

The emergency systems withstood an earthquake five times as powerful as
they were designed for and worked perfectly afterwards. The reactors
shut down exactly as planned. However, the core remains hot for some
days afterwards and, on this design, that needs pumped coolant.

Longer than days, given that reactor 5 (which was shut down for
maintenance way before the earthquake) appears to be boiling off its
coolant.

To provide that, there were generators, backup generators and backup
battery power. The generators worked as planned, until the tsunami hit.
They were designed to withstand a wave the height of a house, but the
one that hit was too high.

Not much of an excuse, given that there is evidence of a similar size
tsunami there within the last 1000 years.

It's all very well saying that it worked to its design criteria, but
right now they aren't looking like the right design criteria.

It knocked out the generators and the backup
generators, but the batteries continued to run the systems for eight
hours, as planned. The problem came in getting the fourth level of
backup - mobile generators - into operation within the eight hours the
batteries gave them. Given the circumstances, it is more surprising
everything worked as well as it did.

Oh right, well that's ok then.

I'm pro-nuke generally, but this isn't a good advert for it. There's
a risk of complacent hubris, especially as this incident isn't over or
even seemingly coming under control yet.

On 16/03/2011 13:24, wrote:

IMHO, a better way to fix it, now it seems to have got completely out
of hand, thanks to the usual 'incompetence of engineers' who designed
emergency systems that don't work in an emergency, would be:

1. Get everybody out of the plant, tell all local residents to stay
inside and close the windows, 'Protect and Survive' stylee (much
better than the daft policy of evacuating the surrounding area, which
is going to cause major problems with housing evacuees)

2. Induce intentional meltdowns in all reactors, by precision-bombing
them from the air, so that the cooling systems are completely smashed
and all coolant escapes. This would cause the fuel to melt down into
the layer of graphite provided beneath the reactors for just this
scenario, you then monitor the situation from the air with thermal
cameras etc.

3. Once the graphite has absorbed all the fuel, you really let the
site have it with large bombs, so that the graphite layer is buried
under rubble and displaced soil etc.

4. Finally you finish the job by sending men and machines in, with
appropriate NBC precautions, to entomb the whole thing in concrete.


I've read this through and I find myself completely unable to decide if
this is a spoof of some sort - or you really mean it.

Andy

On Mar 16, 9:35 pm, Andy Champ wrote:
On 16/03/2011 13:24, wrote:





IMHO, a better way to fix it, now it seems to have got completely out
of hand, thanks to the usual 'incompetence of engineers' who designed
emergency systems that don't work in an emergency, would be:

1. Get everybody out of the plant, tell all local residents to stay
inside and close the windows, 'Protect and Survive' stylee (much
better than the daft policy of evacuating the surrounding area, which
is going to cause major problems with housing evacuees)

2. Induce intentional meltdowns in all reactors, by precision-bombing
them from the air, so that the cooling systems are completely smashed
and all coolant escapes. This would cause the fuel to melt down into
the layer of graphite provided beneath the reactors for just this
scenario, you then monitor the situation from the air with thermal
cameras etc.

3. Once the graphite has absorbed all the fuel, you really let the
site have it with large bombs, so that the graphite layer is buried
under rubble and displaced soil etc.

4. Finally you finish the job by sending men and machines in, with
appropriate NBC precautions, to entomb the whole thing in concrete.

I've read this through and I find myself completely unable to decide if
this is a spoof of some sort - or you really mean it.

Andy

+1
check his profile......

Jim K

On Wed, 16 Mar 2011 14:37:52 -0700, Jim K wrote:

On Mar 16, 9:35 pm, Andy Champ wrote:
On 16/03/2011 13:24, wrote:





IMHO, a better way to fix it, now it seems to have got completely out
of hand, thanks to the usual 'incompetence of engineers' who designed
emergency systems that don't work in an emergency, would be:

1. Get everybody out of the plant, tell all local residents to stay
inside and close the windows, 'Protect and Survive' stylee (much
better than the daft policy of evacuating the surrounding area, which
is going to cause major problems with housing evacuees)

2. Induce intentional meltdowns in all reactors, by
precision-bombing them from the air, so that the cooling systems are
completely smashed and all coolant escapes. This would cause the fuel
to melt down into the layer of graphite provided beneath the reactors
for just this scenario, you then monitor the situation from the air
with thermal cameras etc.

3. Once the graphite has absorbed all the fuel, you really let the
site have it with large bombs, so that the graphite layer is buried
under rubble and displaced soil etc.

4. Finally you finish the job by sending men and machines in, with
appropriate NBC precautions, to entomb the whole thing in concrete.

I've read this through and I find myself completely unable to decide if
this is a spoof of some sort - or you really mean it.

Andy

+1
check his profile......

Jim K

What 'profile'? Do you mean Google Groups? Most of us don't use it...



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

" wrote in
message
...
On Mar 16, 3:34 am, "Ala" wrote:
"Bram" wrote in
...

But looking at the footage, when the No.3 building exploded, the
fallout
didn't appear to be going out to sea. Also, if it was a hydrogen
explosion, why was the flame orange

er, it is by the sea, and has just been innundated by a tsunami more than
6.5 metres high. So there is a bit of salt around. Sodium Chloride?

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "newshound"
saying something like:

But looking at the footage, when the No.3 building exploded, the
fallout
didn't appear to be going out to sea. Also, if it was a hydrogen
explosion, why was the flame orange

er, it is by the sea, and has just been innundated by a tsunami more than
6.5 metres high. So there is a bit of salt around. Sodium Chloride?

I knew those Bunsen displays would come in handy, some day.