I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed & expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

On Dec 21, 8:22*am, " wrote:
I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed & expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

I should add, the f&e is mounted high on wooden platform on a gable
wall inside the loft - not in contact with the ceiling of the heated
room below. The tank is insulated to all sides and top (but only with
the kit supplied with it - i.e.not that great), and the (copper) pipes
to it well insulated with close fitting climaflex.

On Dec 21, 8:26*am, " wrote:
On Dec 21, 8:22*am, " wrote:



I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed & expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

I should add, the f&e is mounted high on wooden platform on a gable
wall inside the loft - not in contact with the ceiling of the heated
room below. The tank is insulated to all sides and top (but only with
the kit supplied with it - i.e.not that great), and the (copper) pipes
to it well insulated with close fitting climaflex.

Ok - just been up there to check, whilst the water is pretty chilly
(that's the SI value for a bit above freezing) - there's no sign of
ice at all, even after several days of outside temps continuously
below zero.

On Dec 21, 1:35*pm, " wrote:
On Dec 21, 8:26*am, " wrote:



On Dec 21, 8:22*am, " wrote:

I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed & expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

I should add, the f&e is mounted high on wooden platform on a gable
wall inside the loft - not in contact with the ceiling of the heated
room below. The tank is insulated to all sides and top (but only with
the kit supplied with it - i.e.not that great), and the (copper) pipes
to it well insulated with close fitting climaflex.

Ok - just been up there to check, whilst the water is pretty chilly
(that's the SI value for a bit above freezing) - there's no sign of
ice at all, even after several days of outside temps continuously
below zero.

When you say "continuously below zero", how far below? In south
Lincolnshire nighttime temperatures have sunk as low as -11C and it
had been -5 even at 08:00am.

MM

wrote in message
...


I should add, the f&e is mounted high on wooden platform on a gable
wall inside the loft - not in contact with the ceiling of the heated
room below. The tank is insulated to all sides and top (but only with
the kit supplied with it - i.e.not that great), and the (copper) pipes
to it well insulated with close fitting climaflex.

I would worry then.
My main tank is on stilts to increase the shower head.
The stilts and the tank are wrapped in insulation right down to the ceiling
and the insulation on the ceiling is removed.
I don't expect it to freeze as it gets some heat from below, yours can only
get colder by the sounds of it.

If you have time you could build a box around the whole thing using
insulation board down to the ceiling.

On Dec 21, 8:22*am, " wrote:
I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

Do you mean you are going to spend a few days sleeping on an airport
floor? :-)

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed & expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

Under present conditions I would say there is a fair chance you are
correct


My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

Not if the pipes to the tank are frozen solid


So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

Good idea

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?

They can be, especially if the pipes adjacent burst. You could have no
end of fun then


Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

Possible but if there is any trapped air/gas in the radiators etc., to
act as a cushion, only a low likelihood.
If you are a regular winter holidaymaker you might consider installing
self limiting trace heating to the pipes and tank in the loft.

On Dec 21, 8:22*am, " wrote:
I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed & expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

You can drain your hot water loft tank down by turning off your stop
tap and turning on your hot water taps. This drains the loft tank but
not the cylinder.
As the float valve is open, you can drain the coldwater pipe up there
by opening the cold taps about the house.
However you C Heating tank is at danger. I have seen the trick of
putting an extension lead with 100w lamp beneath the CH tank. I
imagine there's a small fire risk with this or the bulb could blow
leaving you without protection.
Maybe a small tubular heater? (Needs air circulation or may over heat.)

On 21/12/10 08:22, wrote:
I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed& expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

If you are that worried, leave the heating on a normal or slightly
reduced cycle - if it is only a few days.

If not now, can you in the future, insulate the FE tank?

You then have the option to include some trace heating tape around the
tank and any vunlnerable pipes, or to complete a box like insulation
structure all the way down to the ceiling, but not put a base on it
which would allow what little heat is in the room below to rise into the
FE insulated space.


After reading all this, I think I might include a short loop of CH pipe
under my FE tank so it gets a burst of warmth everytime the heating
comes on in frost protection mode.

HTH

Tim
--
Tim Watts

On Dec 21, 11:38*am, Tim Watts wrote:
On 21/12/10 08:22, wrote:



I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed& *expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

If you are that worried, leave the heating on a normal or slightly
reduced cycle - if it is only a few days.

That's exactly what I have done, although I have a conventional large
cold tank and small CH header tank mounted directly on the floor
joists. I also opened all the bedroom doors so that the heat from the
bedroom radiators should waft up into the loft (left hatch open). I
set the radiators to "medium", so they get fairly warm. And the hot
water in the airing cupboard will also throw off some warm air to
permeate the loft a bit.

I've been leaving the loft hatch open for a few days and placed a
thermometer in the loft. Even when the outside (garden) temperature
was reading -7C the loft measured +2.

I also ripped up some of the loft insulation covering the joists and
placed it around the pipes. The pipes all have the foam rubber tubing
around them, but sinc I was going away I thought an extra bit of
insulation can't do any harm.

But for next year I am deffo going to investigate warming
possibilities, for example greenhouse-type propagation heaters. I'm
also going to get a wireless thermometer to put in the loft that I can
monitor from the comfort of my living room. Thing to do is see what
they do in e.g. Canada and Russia.

Re the light bulb idea, I had also heard of someone using a 100w bulb
suspended from a loft beam to just take the chill off. Presumably this
would be hung within a few inches of the tank or pipework, but I, too,
would be worried about fire risk. In fact, although I had been leaving
the light in the loft on for the past few days (it's only 60w filament
and mounted on a rafter), I debated whether to leave it on while I was
away and in the end just couldn't do it. Let's hope that the CH
doesn't fail! Mind you, the weather appears to be getting slightly
warmer right now anyway. For example, the BBC weather page for
Spalding says the min temps for Wed, Thu, Fri, Sat, Sun are forecasted
to be -1, 0, 0, -2, -1

MM

wrote:
I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed & expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?


Yes.

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

Yes

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 12:40:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

wrote:
I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed & expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?


Yes.

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

Yes

Some years ago a neighbour drained their tank in the loft because they
were off to Spain for a couple of months to miss the worst of the
English winter. On their return, in chilly February, they turned on
their main water stopcock and got their c/h running.

After a while there was a horrible rushing noise from upstairs, and
water was seen pouring through the lounge ceiling.

The ballcock in the tank had stuck in the down position....

David J

On Dec 21, 7:26*pm, David J wrote:
On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 12:40:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher



wrote:
wrote:
I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed & expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?

Yes.

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

Yes

Some years ago a neighbour drained their tank in the loft because they
were off to Spain for a couple of months to miss the worst of the
English winter. On their return, in chilly February, they turned on
their main water stopcock and got their c/h running.

After a while there was a horrible rushing noise from upstairs, and
water was seen pouring through the lounge ceiling.

The ballcock in the tank had stuck in the down position....

David J

One would hope the overflow could cope with that.

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 11:30:03 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 21, 7:26*pm, David J wrote:
On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 12:40:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher



wrote:
wrote:
I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed & expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?

Yes.

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

Yes

Some years ago a neighbour drained their tank in the loft because they
were off to Spain for a couple of months to miss the worst of the
English winter. On their return, in chilly February, they turned on
their main water stopcock and got their c/h running.

After a while there was a horrible rushing noise from upstairs, and
water was seen pouring through the lounge ceiling.

The ballcock in the tank had stuck in the down position....

David J

One would hope the overflow could cope with that.

Is it designed to cope with full flow input?

On Dec 21, 7:30*pm, " wrote:
On Dec 21, 7:26*pm, David J wrote:



On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 12:40:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

wrote:
wrote:
I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed & expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?

Yes.

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

Yes

Some years ago a neighbour drained their tank in the loft because they
were off to Spain for a couple of months to miss the worst of the
English winter. On their return, in chilly February, they turned on
their main water stopcock and got their c/h running.

After a while there was a horrible rushing noise from upstairs, and
water was seen pouring through the lounge ceiling.

The ballcock in the tank had stuck in the down position....

David J

One would hope the overflow could cope with that.

NB: The overflow ~can~ freeze up, thus no longer behaving as an
overflow! That's yet another job to take on for next year: What to do
to prevent that from happening. Although I have the water alarm
mentioned above, I don't hear it very well from 50 miles away!

Maybe that's the next level of technical wizardry: a water alarm-cum-
wireless thermometer that "phones home" when there's a problem.

MM

On Dec 22, 4:06*pm, MM wrote:
On Dec 21, 7:30*pm, " wrote:





On Dec 21, 7:26*pm, David J wrote:

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 12:40:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher

wrote:
wrote:
I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed & expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?

Yes.

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

Yes

Some years ago a neighbour drained their tank in the loft because they
were off to Spain for a couple of months to miss the worst of the
English winter. On their return, in chilly February, they turned on
their main water stopcock and got their c/h running.

After a while there was a horrible rushing noise from upstairs, and
water was seen pouring through the lounge ceiling.

The ballcock in the tank had stuck in the down position....

David J

One would hope the overflow could cope with that.

NB: The overflow ~can~ freeze up, thus no longer behaving as an
overflow! That's yet another job to take on for next year: What to do
to prevent that from happening. Although I have the water alarm
mentioned above, I don't hear it very well from 50 miles away!

Maybe that's the next level of technical wizardry: a water alarm-cum-
wireless thermometer that "phones home" when there's a problem.

MM- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Best thing is to get a mains pressurised system and do away with all
plumbing in the loft.

On Dec 21, 7:26*pm, David J wrote:
On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 12:40:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher



wrote:
wrote:
I'm about to go away for a few days, and usually I would switch the
central heating thermostat down to the frost setting.

That of course will be sufficient to ensure that the pipework inside
the house won't freeze, but my feed & expansion tank is in the loft -
and with the exceptionally cold weather, I could imagine that might
freeze.

My system is a thermal store (i.e. large volume of water), so hot/cold
cycling actually results in a fair bit of movement of the water level
in the f&e tank. I'm guessing that because it's never off for more
than 8 hours on the current timer settings, that any ice "skin" in the
tank gets broken up by the movements in water level.

So I think I'm going to play safe as temperatures are remaining below
freezing for days - and leave the system on its normal settings.

But I'd like to hear - are f&e tanks freezing a real problem?

Yes.

Are burst pipes elsewhere in the system (due to inadvertently creating
a "sealed system") a possible outcome?

Yes

Some years ago a neighbour drained their tank in the loft because they
were off to Spain for a couple of months to miss the worst of the
English winter. On their return, in chilly February, they turned on
their main water stopcock and got their c/h running.

After a while there was a horrible rushing noise from upstairs, and
water was seen pouring through the lounge ceiling.

The ballcock in the tank had stuck in the down position....

David J

(a) didn't the overflow work?
and (b) I have an audible alarm that goes off when the water level
approaches the overflow outlet. It's gone off a couple of times, too,
due to a bit of grit in the ball valve. I got mine from Tschibo, which
is now defunct in the UK, but Maplin do a water alarm:
http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=22564

Mine has a rubber sucker that "clings" to the inside of the tank and
you just move it about accordingly. Also easy to test because you just
make the probes wet.

MM