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#1
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
I have a Gitzo G1327 camera tripod with carbon fibre (CF) legs. The thread at the top of one of the legs where it screws into the platform(?) head of the tripod has partially stripped and cannot be tightened. The effect of this is that loosening the twist clamps for the lower sections of the leg in question turns the leg at the head end. Wasting time with Google I have found that most people seem to use variants of epoxy resin to glue CF to all manner of other stuff including metal. Is this the case or should I search out some frightfully expensive specialist adhesive? The leg can be fully removed from the socket which would allow for roughening of the mating surfaces of leg and socket. I do have some JB Weld if that would do a better job that Araldite. Any tips or solutions would be gratefully received. Richard |
#2
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On 17 Oct, 12:22, RJS wrote:
Wasting time with Google I have found that most people seem to use variants of epoxy resin to glue CF to all manner of other stuff including metal. * Is this the case or should I search out some frightfully expensive specialist adhesive? Epoxy is fine. It's worth seeking out better grades than Araldite though. West System etc. (try Axminster) sell a thin epoxy that you thicken as needed with powder or fibre fillers. Mixing before filling also gives a more reliable mixture. Even model shop epoxies are better than Araldite, although you pay a hefty premium for small packages. Avoid rapid epoxies. |
#3
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On 17 Oct, 12:36, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 17 Oct, 12:22, RJS wrote: Wasting time with Google I have found that most people seem to use variants of epoxy resin to glue CF to all manner of other stuff including metal. * Is this the case or should I search out some frightfully expensive specialist adhesive? Epoxy is fine. *It's worth seeking out better grades than Araldite though. West System etc. (try Axminster) sell a thin epoxy that you thicken as needed with powder or fibre fillers. Mixing before filling also gives a more reliable mixture. *Even model shop epoxies are better than Araldite, although you pay a hefty premium for small packages. Avoid rapid epoxies. Ta! |
#4
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
RJS wrote:
On 17 Oct, 12:36, Andy wrote: On 17 Oct, 12:22, wrote: Wasting time with Google I have found that most people seem to use variants of epoxy resin to glue CF to all manner of other stuff including metal. Is this the case or should I search out some frightfully expensive specialist adhesive? Epoxy is fine. It's worth seeking out better grades than Araldite though. West System etc. (try Axminster) sell a thin epoxy that you thicken as needed with powder or fibre fillers. Mixing before filling also gives a more reliable mixture. Even model shop epoxies are better than Araldite, although you pay a hefty premium for small packages. Avoid rapid epoxies. Ta! Once the glue has set, investigate the possibility of fitting a pin across the diameter of the tube to add more strength. A pin such as a section of a nail shank or a broken drill with the end filed/ground flush would be ideal. Bob |
#5
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On 17 Oct, 13:24, Bob Minchin
wrote: RJS wrote: On 17 Oct, 12:36, Andy *wrote: On 17 Oct, 12:22, *wrote: Wasting time with Google I have found that most people seem to use variants of epoxy resin to glue CF to all manner of other stuff including metal. * Is this the case or should I search out some frightfully expensive specialist adhesive? Epoxy is fine. *It's worth seeking out better grades than Araldite though. West System etc. (try Axminster) sell a thin epoxy that you thicken as needed with powder or fibre fillers. Mixing before filling also gives a more reliable mixture. *Even model shop epoxies are better than Araldite, although you pay a hefty premium for small packages. Avoid rapid epoxies. Ta! Once the glue has set, investigate the possibility of fitting a pin across the diameter of the tube to add more strength. A pin such as a section of a nail shank or a broken drill with the end filed/ground flush would be ideal. Bob Thanks Bob A pin would be good. Unfortunately the lower sections (2) of the leg go right to the top of the outer leg when they are collapsed - if that poor description makes any sense! Richard |
#6
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
RJS wrote:
I have a Gitzo G1327 camera tripod with carbon fibre (CF) legs. The thread at the top of one of the legs where it screws into the platform(?) head of the tripod has partially stripped and cannot be tightened. The effect of this is that loosening the twist clamps for the lower sections of the leg in question turns the leg at the head end. Wasting time with Google I have found that most people seem to use variants of epoxy resin to glue CF to all manner of other stuff including metal. Is this the case or should I search out some frightfully expensive specialist adhesive? The leg can be fully removed from the socket which would allow for roughening of the mating surfaces of leg and socket. I do have some JB Weld if that would do a better job that Araldite. that tends to stick better than epoxy. With epoxy you need to load it a bit with a filler, clean degrease and scuff the ally, and use moderated heat to get the epoxy well mixed and runny enough to get into the aluminium scratches. Any tips or solutions would be gratefully received. Richard |
#7
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On 17 Oct, 13:39, The Natural Philosopher
wrote: that tends to stick better than epoxy. With epoxy you need to load it a bit with a filler, clean degrease and scuff the ally, and use moderated heat to get the epoxy well mixed and runny enough to get into the aluminium scratches. Any tips or solutions would be gratefully received. Richard Thanks I've found that JB Weld is generally better than Araldite - but I've never used a decent epoxy only ever Araldite. I've found that JB Weld is very difficult to find. Richard |
#8
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On 17 Oct, 13:47, RJS wrote:
I've found that JB Weld is very difficult to find. I've noticed that recently too. I wanted some for its visual appearance (filling in the buffers on this: http://quercus.livejournal.com/300504.html ) but couldn't find it anywhere across two towns and two cities. Ended up using silver Milliput instead. |
#9
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On 17 Oct, 15:21, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 17 Oct, 13:47, RJS wrote: I've found that JB Weld is very difficult to find. I've noticed that recently too. I wanted some for its visual appearance (filling in the buffers on this:http://quercus.livejournal.com/300504.html ) but couldn't find it anywhere across two towns and two cities. Ended up using silver Milliput instead. Excellent! However, I've always believed - and tried to ensure it is so - that the role of an uncle is to enable the nephew/niece to experience all those things that their parents believe inappropriate or unsuitable. ;-) Consequently, I'm in fairly high demand with the small people who all seem undamaged by things such as gruesomely realistic dinosaur books or stomach-churning fun fairs! Richard |
#10
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
In message
, RJS writes On 17 Oct, 13:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote: that tends to stick better than epoxy. With epoxy you need to load it a bit with a filler, clean degrease and scuff the ally, and use moderated heat to get the epoxy well mixed and runny enough to get into the aluminium scratches. Any tips or solutions would be gratefully received. Richard Thanks I've found that JB Weld is generally better than Araldite - but I've never used a decent epoxy only ever Araldite. I've found that JB Weld is very difficult to find. Does your local car accessory shop not stock it ? CPC just down the road from you has it -- geoff |
#11
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On 17 Oct, 18:35, geoff wrote:
In message , RJS writes On 17 Oct, 13:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote: that tends to stick better than epoxy. With epoxy you need to load it a bit with a filler, clean degrease and scuff the ally, and use moderated heat to get the epoxy well mixed and runny enough to get into the aluminium scratches. Any tips or solutions would be gratefully received. Richard Thanks I've found that JB Weld is generally better than Araldite - but I've never used a decent epoxy only ever Araldite. I've found that JB Weld is very difficult to find. Does your local car accessory shop not stock it ? CPC just down the road from you has it -- geoff Hi Geoff What did you search the CPC site for? I've plugged 'JB Weld' in and found nothing. It would be great if I could find a supplier. By the way, pictures of the tripod can be seen he http://richard2808.fotopic.net/c1907473.html Cheers Richard |
#12
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
In message
, RJS writes On 17 Oct, 18:35, geoff wrote: In message , RJS writes On 17 Oct, 13:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote: that tends to stick better than epoxy. With epoxy you need to load it a bit with a filler, clean degrease and scuff the ally, and use moderated heat to get the epoxy well mixed and runny enough to get into the aluminium scratches. Any tips or solutions would be gratefully received. Richard Thanks I've found that JB Weld is generally better than Araldite - but I've never used a decent epoxy only ever Araldite. I've found that JB Weld is very difficult to find. Does your local car accessory shop not stock it ? CPC just down the road from you has it -- geoff Hi Geoff What did you search the CPC site for? I've plugged 'JB Weld' in and found nothing. It would be great if I could find a supplier. I didn't search, I've ordered it from there in the past I was assuming they would still have it else, I expect I've got some at work, I normally order half a dozen at a time (JB Quick, though) - I'll check tomorrow By the way, pictures of the tripod can be seen he http://richard2808.fotopic.net/c1907473.html Cheers Richard -- geoff |
#13
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
In message
, RJS writes On 17 Oct, 13:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote: that tends to stick better than epoxy. With epoxy you need to load it a bit with a filler, clean degrease and scuff the ally, and use moderated heat to get the epoxy well mixed and runny enough to get into the aluminium scratches. Any tips or solutions would be gratefully received. Richard Thanks I've found that JB Weld is generally better than Araldite - but I've never used a decent epoxy only ever Araldite. I've found that JB Weld is very difficult to find. I asked my local supplier (car accessory shop) today, he didn't think that there was any problem getting JB Weld. If you just want a bit to repair this tripod, I can prolly find a partially used set -- geoff |
#14
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On 18 Oct, 22:59, geoff wrote:
In message , RJS writes On 17 Oct, 13:39, The Natural Philosopher wrote: that tends to stick better than epoxy. With epoxy you need to load it a bit with a filler, clean degrease and scuff the ally, and use moderated heat to get the epoxy well mixed and runny enough to get into the aluminium scratches. Any tips or solutions would be gratefully received. Richard Thanks I've found that JB Weld is generally better than Araldite - but I've never used a decent epoxy only ever Araldite. I've found that JB Weld is very difficult to find. I asked my local supplier (car accessory shop) today, he didn't think that there was any problem getting JB Weld. If you just want a bit to repair this tripod, I can prolly find a partially used set -- geoff Thanks Geoff That's very kind. However, I do have some JB Weld and make a point of buying it whenever I see it - which hasn't been for a couple of years. Regards Richard |
#15
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On 17 Oct, 12:22, RJS wrote:
I have a Gitzo G1327 camera tripod with carbon fibre (CF) legs. The thread at the top of one of the legs where it screws into the platform(?) head of the tripod has partially stripped and cannot be tightened. The effect of this is that loosening the twist clamps for the lower sections of the leg in question turns the leg at the head end. Wasting time with Google I have found that most people seem to use variants of epoxy resin to glue CF to all manner of other stuff including metal. Is this the case or should I search out some frightfully expensive specialist adhesive? The leg can be fully removed from the socket which would allow for roughening of the mating surfaces of leg and socket. I do have some JB Weld if that would do a better job that Araldite. Any tips or solutions would be gratefully received. Richard gorilla glue? |
#16
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On 17 Oct, 12:22, RJS wrote:
I have a Gitzo G1327 camera tripod with carbon fibre (CF) legs. The thread at the top of one of the legs where it screws into the platform(?) head of the tripod has partially stripped and cannot be tightened. *The effect of this is that loosening the twist clamps for the lower sections of the leg in question turns the leg at the head end. Wasting time with Google I have found that most people seem to use variants of epoxy resin to glue CF to all manner of other stuff including metal. * Is this the case or should I search out some frightfully expensive specialist adhesive? The leg can be fully removed from the socket which would allow for roughening of the mating surfaces of leg and socket. I do have some JB Weld if that would do a better job that Araldite. Any tips or solutions would be gratefully received. Richard Carbon fibre is in fact laid up in either epoxy or polyesther resin in a mould. Ideally would be to use a similar resin as a glue. Epoxy is the commonest. The problem with adhesion arises when the finished product has been polished or has release agents from the mould still on the surface. If any form of silicone polish/release agent/lubricant has been used (as is common) repairs are difficult because a bond cannot be achieved. The silicone gets right into the resin which is in fact quite porous. You need to abrade the surface and try. If it fails it's probably for this reason. |
#17
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On Sun, 17 Oct 2010 12:10:33 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote: Carbon fibre is in fact laid up in either epoxy or polyesther resin in a mould. Ideally would be to use a similar resin as a glue. Epoxy is the commonest. The problem with adhesion arises when the finished product has been polished or has release agents from the mould still on the surface. If any form of silicone polish/release agent/lubricant has been used (as is common) repairs are difficult because a bond cannot be achieved. The silicone gets right into the resin which is in fact quite porous. If the correct release agents have been used then bonding shouldn't ever be a problem if the joint is correctly cleaned. Silicones in liquid, wax or spray form, simply aren't used by those who lay up composites professionally. Semi rigid silicones can very occasionally be used, these are similar to baking trays / cake / jelly moulds used in the kitchen. This is for the simple reason that uncured silicones are really bad news as their presence can seriously compromise the integrity of the entire manufacturing process not only in composite sub-assembly but also when applying paint finishes. You need to abrade the surface and try. If it fails it's probably for this reason. What remains adhered to the composite needs examining. Ideally it needs removing back to the original finished surface but no further. flap wheels work quite well for this task. Then a simple degrease is sufficient. Aluminium when exposed to the atmosphere almost instantly forms an oxide surface that reduces the effectiveness of the bonding. Abrading should therefore be done in an inert atmosphere, for all practical purposes when working on a repair, a fine scotchbrite pad should be used for surface preparation. Initially in the air, then again when below the surface of a suitable solvent degreaser, then quickly remove the component from the degreaser and wipe with a clean lint free cloth, then immediately place in a container of catalysed epoxy and wipe again with a piece of clean scotchbrite pad keeping the newly abraded surface below the epoxy at all times. Remove and bring the two parts to be bonded together, maintaining an epoxy covering all over the bond surface, wiping any excess that exudes from the joint. Then maintain the parts in alignment, keeping a precise gap between the parts until the epoxy fully cures. Of course you could just bang the bits together and forget the preparation, some 'experts' do just that, and members of the public, particularly those with more money than sense, experience the failings of just such an approach every day. -- |
#18
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On 18 Oct, 22:51, The Other Mike
wrote: If the correct release agents have been used then bonding shouldn't ever be a problem if the joint is correctly cleaned. Silicones in liquid, wax or spray form, simply aren't used by those who lay up composites professionally. *Semi rigid silicones can very occasionally be used, these are similar to baking trays / cake / jelly moulds used in the kitchen. This is for the simple reason that uncured silicones are really bad news as their presence can seriously compromise the integrity of the entire manufacturing process not only in composite sub-assembly but also when applying paint finishes. You need to abrade the surface and try. *If it fails it's probably for this reason. What remains adhered to the composite needs examining. Ideally it needs removing back to the original finished surface but no further. flap wheels work quite well for this task. *Then a simple degrease is sufficient. Aluminium when exposed to the atmosphere almost instantly forms an oxide surface that reduces the effectiveness of the bonding. Abrading should therefore be done in an inert atmosphere, for all practical purposes when working on a repair, a fine scotchbrite pad should be used for surface preparation. *Initially in the air, then again when below the surface of a suitable solvent degreaser, then quickly remove the component from the degreaser and wipe with a clean lint free cloth, then immediately place in a container of catalysed epoxy and wipe again with a piece of clean scotchbrite pad keeping the newly abraded surface below the epoxy at all times. *Remove and bring the two parts to be bonded together, maintaining an epoxy covering all over the bond surface, wiping any excess that exudes from the joint. Then maintain the parts in alignment, keeping a precise gap between the parts until the epoxy fully cures. Of course you could just bang the bits together and forget the preparation, some 'experts' do just that, and members of the public, particularly those with more money than sense, experience the failings of just such an approach every day. -- Can I say 'er blimey'. But thanks for the in depth solution. Richard ;-) |
#19
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On 19 Oct, 20:56, RJS wrote:
On 18 Oct, 22:51, The Other Mike wrote: If the correct release agents have been used then bonding shouldn't ever be a problem if the joint is correctly cleaned. Silicones in liquid, wax or spray form, simply aren't used by those who lay up composites professionally. *Semi rigid silicones can very occasionally be used, these are similar to baking trays / cake / jelly moulds used in the kitchen. This is for the simple reason that uncured silicones are really bad news as their presence can seriously compromise the integrity of the entire manufacturing process not only in composite sub-assembly but also when applying paint finishes. You need to abrade the surface and try. *If it fails it's probably for this reason. What remains adhered to the composite needs examining. Ideally it needs removing back to the original finished surface but no further. flap wheels work quite well for this task. *Then a simple degrease is sufficient. Aluminium when exposed to the atmosphere almost instantly forms an oxide surface that reduces the effectiveness of the bonding. Abrading should therefore be done in an inert atmosphere, for all practical purposes when working on a repair, a fine scotchbrite pad should be used for surface preparation. *Initially in the air, then again when below the surface of a suitable solvent degreaser, then quickly remove the component from the degreaser and wipe with a clean lint free cloth, then immediately place in a container of catalysed epoxy and wipe again with a piece of clean scotchbrite pad keeping the newly abraded surface below the epoxy at all times. *Remove and bring the two parts to be bonded together, maintaining an epoxy covering all over the bond surface, wiping any excess that exudes from the joint. Then maintain the parts in alignment, keeping a precise gap between the parts until the epoxy fully cures. Of course you could just bang the bits together and forget the preparation, some 'experts' do just that, and members of the public, particularly those with more money than sense, experience the failings of just such an approach every day. -- Can I say 'er blimey'. But thanks for the in depth solution. Richard *;-) Ditto - and it does explain why I've had Al joints fail despite cleaning, abrading, etc. Interestingly I have not had a failure with PU glue on Al joints, admittedly in low stress situations. What does a 'precise gap' mean; do it take it that firm clamping is also not recommended ? Are you suggesting that the bond layer should have minimum thickness and not a minimal thickness ? Rob |
#20
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Glue for sticking carbon fibre to alloy
On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:34:28 -0700 (PDT), robgraham
wrote: Ditto - and it does explain why I've had Al joints fail despite cleaning, abrading, etc. Interestingly I have not had a failure with PU glue on Al joints, admittedly in low stress situations. What does a 'precise gap' mean; do it take it that firm clamping is also not recommended ? Are you suggesting that the bond layer should have minimum thickness and not a minimal thickness ? Clamping is good but you need to maintain a certain thickness in the glue line whilst keeping the parts concentric or spaced by a certain distance depending on the adhesive used. This ought to be engineered into the design of the joint but often isn't. A typical epoxy, and indeed some polyurethanes ideally require a joint gap of around 0.05 - 0.2 mm or about 2 - 8 thousandths of an inch. With some consumer products, and with repairs you'll often have much bigger gaps than that and hence more reliance on the gap filling properties and thus a greater tendency for joint failure. When joining two flat surfaces thin shims would be fixed in a grid pattern to the surface with appropriately distributed clamping in order that a consistent glue line is maintained. On circular parts you would ideally have a recess in one or both of the parts such that there was almost full annular contact between the two parts you were joining (and thus almost no glue) whilst in the recess would be the glue that joined the two parts together. Vent paths for air and glue are then needed when assembling these tightly fitting joints. Fitting pins across the joint to lock the two parts together is a bodge that really isn't needed unless required for fail safe purposes. -- |
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