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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Injet printer cartridge refills
Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as
I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? -- Michael Chare |
#2
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Injet printer cartridge refills
Michael Chare wrote:
Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! are you surprised? There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Can be. You risk entirely clogging the ink paths if they aren't though. Consider a small color laser. |
#3
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 1 Oct, 21:18, "Michael Chare"
wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. *Are these any good? -- Michael Chare I've been using refill kits, both black and colour, for about 7 years, and I've always been very happy with the results. |
#4
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Injet printer cartridge refills
"Mr Fuxit" wrote in message ... On 1 Oct, 21:18, "Michael Chare" wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? -- Michael Chare I've been using refill kits, both black and colour, for about 7 years, and I've always been very happy with the results. Same here - never had a problem except once when I didn't use the printer for abour six weeks and the heads dried up. But I believe this could have happened even if I had been using Canon ink. |
#5
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On Oct 1, 9:18*pm, "Michael Chare"
wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. *Are these any good? -- Michael Chare I've not had much look with refill kits - a lot of faffing about and dubious success for the savings involved - and after using mx2 and then svp for compatible carts, I eventually found these guys up in Darlington: http://www.inkredible.co.uk/ They worked out at a quid a cart (for a compatible chipped Canon MP600) and they've been indistinguishable from the Canon originals, so personally I wouldn't mess around trying to refill at that price. I have to say though, I was a bit dubious at first, and what finally made me take a punt was that my niece is up that way and I thought I could combine a visit to her with kicking their door down if they turned out to be conmen! |
#6
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Injet printer cartridge refills
In message , The Natural Philosopher
wrote Consider a small color laser. Where the replacement toners cost 4 times the price of the printer. With my Epson inkjet I have been using third party compatible cartridges for years without problems. These cost around £1 to £2 each excl. postage. With prices as low as this why bother with refills? Original inks and papers may only be important if you want top quality photos for display or archive. Lesser quality inks may start fading or changing colour when exposed to sunlight over a (short) period of time. However, I'm not sure all manufactures of original ink guarantee the longevity of their product when exposed to sunlight. A few years back some of the top printer companies used to advertise in trade papers by including a photo printed with their inks and paper. These were placed on a notice board at work with half covered up. After month or so the covering was removed and compared to the part of the photo exposed to daylight. There was always a marked difference between the two halves. -- Alan news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
#7
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 01/10/2010 21:18, Michael Chare wrote:
Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Cheap printers and expensive cartridges are all part of the marketing strategy because manufacturers can virtually give you the printer and rely on making their money from ink sales. [Bit like mobile phones, really] We buy genuine Canon cartridges from the likes of www.7dayshop.com - where they are a lot cheaper than in the High Street. They - as do the likes of Lidl from time to time - also sell 'compatible' cartridges, which are a lot cheaper still. I've never fancied refill kits - I reckon it could get a bit messy! -- Cheers, Roger ____________ Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom checked. |
#8
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 01/10/2010 21:18, Michael Chare wrote:
Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Some are good, some are not. Universal kits usually owe more to the desire of supermarkets to minimise the amount of space required on their shelves than to the needs of the user. I recommend a specialist kit, designed to suit a particular cartridge or a small range of physically similar cartridges. This site sells the InkTec range, which I fully recommend, and, for the more popular cartridges, extra ink that can be used with the tools in a kit for even more savings. http://www.ink4print.co.uk/ Colin Bignell |
#9
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Injet printer cartridge refills
I've not had much look with refill kits - a lot of faffing about and dubious success for the savings involved - and after using mx2 and then svp for compatible carts, I eventually found these guys up in Darlington: http://www.inkredible.co.uk/ Me too, but got a Dell 1300c instead, and never looked back... |
#10
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Injet printer cartridge refills
In article , Nightjar
"cpb"@ "insertmysurnamehere@?.? writes On 01/10/2010 21:18, Michael Chare wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Some are good, some are not. Universal kits usually owe more to the desire of supermarkets to minimise the amount of space required on their shelves than to the needs of the user. I recommend a specialist kit, designed to suit a particular cartridge or a small range of physically similar cartridges. This site sells the InkTec range, which I fully recommend, and, for the more popular cartridges, extra ink that can be used with the tools in a kit for even more savings. http://www.ink4spam.co.uk/ Colin Bignell Did you really do that? That is promote your own site as a fake testimonial? -- fred FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ******** |
#11
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On Fri, 1 Oct 2010 21:18:18 +0100, "Michael Chare"
wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? For a Pixma avoid the very cheap ebay ones. (£5 for 20) but I have had good results from the ones from large web suppliers priced about 25% of the originals. |
#12
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Injet printer cartridge refills
in 991519 20101001 213531 Mr Fuxit wrote:
On 1 Oct, 21:18, "Michael Chare" wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much= as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. =A0Are these a= ny good? -- Michael Chare I've been using refill kits, both black and colour, for about 7 years, and I've always been very happy with the results. Me too, I use the ones from Argos at £7.99 black and £9.99 colour. |
#13
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Injet printer cartridge refills
In article , fred wrote:
http://www.ink4spam.co.uk/ Colin Bignell Did you really do that? That is promote your own site as a fake testimonial? It would appear so, yes :-/ Darren |
#14
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 01/10/2010 23:41, fred wrote:
In article , Nightjar "cpb"@ "insertmysurnamehere@?.? writes On 01/10/2010 21:18, Michael Chare wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Some are good, some are not. Universal kits usually owe more to the desire of supermarkets to minimise the amount of space required on their shelves than to the needs of the user. I recommend a specialist kit, designed to suit a particular cartridge or a small range of physically similar cartridges. This site sells the InkTec range, which I fully recommend, and, for the more popular cartridges, extra ink that can be used with the tools in a kit for even more savings. http://www.ink4spam.co.uk/ Colin Bignell Did you really do that? That is promote your own site as a fake testimonial? I sold the business that runs that site some time ago and no longer have any connection with either business or site, except as a customer. The testimonial is also quite genuine. I buy and use the refill kits they sell myself and have never found any as good as them. These days I am semi-retired and the only business I run is http://www.norscreenfilters.co.uk/ Colin Bignell |
#15
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 01/10/2010 21:56, mike wrote:
On Oct 1, 9:18 pm, "Michael http://www.inkredible.co.uk/ They worked out at a quid a cart (for a compatible chipped Canon MP600) and they've been indistinguishable from the Canon originals, so personally I wouldn't mess around trying to refill at that price. £19.06 for an HP21 :-( Another Dave |
#16
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 1 Oct, 21:18, "Michael Chare"
wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. *Are these any good? -- Michael It depends. You can refill for quite a few times but at some point you get a blockage of a jet which sometimes can be cleared and somtimes not. If the jets are part of the cartridge, you can just buy a new cartride. No problem. But if the jets are not part of the cartridge this could be major. Incidently I'm not sure if it blocks or if there is some other problem sometimes. I've also noticed that the inks supplied are sometimes slightly different colours or not as dense as the originals. |
#17
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 1 Oct, 22:07, Alan wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher wrote Consider a small color laser. Where the replacement toners cost 4 times the price of the printer. With my Epson inkjet I have been using third party compatible cartridges for years without problems. These cost around £1 to £2 each excl. postage. *With prices as low as this why bother with refills? Original inks and papers may only be important if you want top quality photos for display or archive. Lesser quality inks may start fading or changing colour when exposed to sunlight over a (short) period of time. However, *I'm not sure all manufactures of original ink guarantee the longevity of their product when exposed to sunlight. A few years back some of the top printer companies used to advertise *in trade papers by including a *photo printed with their inks and paper. These were placed on a notice board at work with half covered up. After month or so the covering was removed and compared to the part of the photo exposed to daylight. There was always a marked difference between the two halves. -- Alan news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk We have three or four local shops will refill your cartridges on and exchange basis. |
#18
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Injet printer cartridge refills
In article , Nightjar
"cpb"@ "insertmysurnamehere@?.? writes On 01/10/2010 23:41, fred wrote: In article , Nightjar "cpb"@ "insertmysurnamehere@?.? writes On 01/10/2010 21:18, Michael Chare wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Some are good, some are not. Universal kits usually owe more to the desire of supermarkets to minimise the amount of space required on their shelves than to the needs of the user. I recommend a specialist kit, designed to suit a particular cartridge or a small range of physically similar cartridges. This site sells the InkTec range, which I fully recommend, and, for the more popular cartridges, extra ink that can be used with the tools in a kit for even more savings. http://www.ink4spam.co.uk/ Colin Bignell Did you really do that? That is promote your own site as a fake testimonial? I sold the business that runs that site some time ago and no longer have any connection with either business or site, except as a customer. The testimonial is also quite genuine. I buy and use the refill kits they sell myself and have never found any as good as them. These days I am semi-retired and the only business I run is http://www.norscreenfilters.co.uk/ Colin Bignell It certainly didn't sound like your style, you have been very discrete in mentioning the ink business in the past. It might have been an idea to declare your former interest though, just so it was out in the open, as praising a site that is registered to Bignell Online Ltd was bound to get the antennae twitching. -- fred FIVE TV's superbright logo - not the DOG's, it's ******** |
#19
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 01/10/2010 21:18, Michael Chare wrote:
Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Get a cheap BW laser printer and keep the Pixma on Canon original colour inks for use when colour printing really matters. Going down the compatibles route with cheap ink and then mixing different formulations is asking for weird and fustrating jet blockages, some which may mean in my experience (with Epsons though) scrapping the printer. For ink carts 7dayshop's prices aren't that bad, and if you go for a Brother HL-2035 laser which has cheap consumables (£33.69 for Brother originals on Amazon) with 1500 page yield, you won't be buying so much ink, and that £70 laser will almost pay for itself. Also if it's photo printing you are doing, online companies do very fast and cheap next day delivery - at very good quality. I wouldn't bother printing own photos and using up all my ink, unless it truly was an urgent requirement. -- Adrian C |
#20
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Injet printer cartridge refills
"Alan" wrote in message ... In message , The Natural Philosopher wrote Consider a small color laser. Where the replacement toners cost 4 times the price of the printer. With my Epson inkjet I have been using third party compatible cartridges for years without problems. These cost around £1 to £2 each excl. postage. With prices as low as this why bother with refills? Original inks and papers may only be important if you want top quality photos for display or archive. Lesser quality inks may start fading or changing colour when exposed to sunlight over a (short) period of time. However, I'm not sure all manufactures of original ink guarantee the longevity of their product when exposed to sunlight. A few years back some of the top printer companies used to advertise in trade papers by including a photo printed with their inks and paper. These were placed on a notice board at work with half covered up. After month or so the covering was removed and compared to the part of the photo exposed to daylight. There was always a marked difference between the two halves. To which most people's response will be "so what". How much of your printing do you archive? Very little I would guess. tim |
#21
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Injet printer cartridge refills
Michael Chare wrote:
Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Refilling your own at home is far too messy. I use http://www.cartridgeworld.co.uk/ and buy their compatibles - 16 quid for a set of four (3 colour and one black) for an Epson Stylus DX4200. Epson originals are over 30 quid now. |
#22
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Injet printer cartridge refills
Djornsk wrote:
I can remember at different times it being cheaper to buy a whole Colour laser printer with toners than the toners alone. The cartridges sold with such a printer are usually only 1/3rd full. So not such a bargain as it might at first appear. The printers are also usually slow, clunky GDI printers. Recently I've been forced to accept a change from Xerox Postscript printers to another make at the place where I work. This is largely because of ideology. The replacement printers are the same physical size but they are slow, clunky and rattle through consumables at about 2x the rate of the printers they replaced. At home I voted with my wallet and use only Xerox Phasers which are expensive to buy but have a much lower consumable cost than many others. I think Kyocera are cheaper for consumables but I have no experience of the brand. Ink jets seem largely pointless apart from photo quality printers and large format printing. |
#23
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Injet printer cartridge refills
In message , Djornsk
wrote I can remember at different times it being cheaper to buy a whole Colour laser printer with toners than the toners alone. These days you have to be careful with this. Printer manufactures now produce "demo" cartridges included with their printers enough for a limited number of test pages. -- Alan news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
#24
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 02/10/2010 12:48, Pete Zahut wrote:
Michael Chare wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Refilling your own at home is far too messy. That depends upon which kit you buy. Colin Bignell |
#25
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Injet printer cartridge refills
Nightjar "cpb"@" wrote:
On 02/10/2010 12:48, Pete Zahut wrote: Michael Chare wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Refilling your own at home is far too messy. That depends upon which kit you buy. Colin Bignell You may well be right Colin. I tried once, got it all over the kitchen (admittedly I am a bit of a clumsy sod) and was banned on pain of death from ever trying again by SWMBO :-) £16 at Cartridgeworld is, BY FAR, the easiest option! |
#26
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 02/10/2010 10:33, harry wrote:
On 1 Oct, 21:18, "Michael wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? -- Michael It depends. You can refill for quite a few times but at some point you get a blockage of a jet which sometimes can be cleared and somtimes not. Provided you don't let the cartridge stand empty for more than a day or two before refilling, you should avoid blocked jets and manage at least 5 refills, with 10-15 being more typical. If the jets are part of the cartridge, you can just buy a new cartride. No problem. But if the jets are not part of the cartridge this could be major. There are not many kits around for printers where the print head is not part of the cartridge. They are simply not attractive when compatible ink cartridges can be made so cheaply to suit such printers. Incidently I'm not sure if it blocks or if there is some other problem sometimes. The heads simply wear out with use. For a few thousand quid you can buy a machine that will check the nozzle function before you try to refill the cartridge. I've also noticed that the inks supplied are sometimes slightly different colours or not as dense as the originals. Dye coloured inks are cheaper than pigment coloured inks, so the cheaper kits will use dye inks, even if the original is a pigment ink. Pigment inks provide more vibrant colours than dye inks. The better manufacturers have huge R&D departments that carefully match colour and ink type to the originals. Indeed, some of them even supply the ink for OEM cartridges. Colin Bignell |
#27
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 01/10/2010 22:48, Roger Mills wrote:
On 01/10/2010 21:18, Michael Chare wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Cheap printers and expensive cartridges are all part of the marketing strategy because manufacturers can virtually give you the printer and rely on making their money from ink sales. [Bit like mobile phones, really] Mm... chatting to my daughter away at uni the other day, she told me how she'd just bought a new Epson printer for about 35 quid and was really chuffed with herself (ie having done this without having to get Dad's advice). Me: "So presumably it's an inkjet then?" Her: "Eh? it's a printer." Me: (having established that she'd just installed inkjet cartridges) "How much are new cartridges then?" Her: "No idea, I don't need any at the moment" Hey ho. The answer turned out to be about 45 pounds a set... :-( David |
#28
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 2 Oct, 16:46, Lobster wrote:
On 01/10/2010 22:48, Roger Mills wrote: On 01/10/2010 21:18, Michael Chare wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Cheap printers and expensive cartridges are all part of the marketing strategy because manufacturers can virtually give you the printer and rely on making their money from ink sales. [Bit like mobile phones, really] Mm... chatting to my daughter away at uni the other day, she told me how she'd just bought a new Epson printer for about 35 quid and was really chuffed with herself (ie having done this without having to get Dad's advice). Me: "So presumably it's an inkjet then?" Her: "Eh? it's a printer." Me: (having established that she'd just installed inkjet cartridges) "How much are new cartridges then?" Her: "No idea, I don't need any at the moment" Hey ho. *The answer turned out to be about 45 pounds a set... :-( David All part of the learning curve! |
#29
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 01/10/2010 21:18, Michael Chare wrote:
Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Depends on what pixma series it is, I have both the 4300 and 4500, been refilling them for years with no issues. I get my ink from hobbicolors in the USA as its almost a direct match to the oem canon ink. You would need a re setting gizmo to reset the carts chips Have a look here for sound advice. www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/ -- |
#30
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 2 Oct,
harry wrote: It depends. You can refill for quite a few times but at some point you get a blockage of a jet which sometimes can be cleared and somtimes not. If the jets are part of the cartridge, you can just buy a new cartride. No problem. But if the jets are not part of the cartridge this could be major. Incidently I'm not sure if it blocks or if there is some other problem sometimes. I've also noticed that the inks supplied are sometimes slightly different colours or not as dense as the originals. I gave up filling inkjets many years ago. I got a laser printer, originally a mono one. Cartridges are more expensive, but last much longer, particularly with irregular use. Not much later I added a colour laser, replacing a standby inkjet. A cyan cartridge ran out (so it said) after a year and a half. I bought a replacement set (they did cost nearly as much as the printer) but two years later I haven't fitted them, but will need to soon. If I'd still used the inkjet I'd have got through more money, and torn even more of my (scant) hair out trying to get it to print. Get a laser printer, you know it makes sense! I'm now looking to replace my B&W laser with a colour multifunction networked one. Any suggestions? -- B Thumbs Change lycos to yahoo to reply |
#31
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Injet printer cartridge refills
Martop wrote:
On 01/10/2010 21:18, Michael Chare wrote: Canon replacement cartridges for my Pixma printer now cost almost as much as I originally paid for the printer! There are various cartridge refill kits which I could buy. Are these any good? Depends on what pixma series it is, I have both the 4300 and 4500, been refilling them for years with no issues. I get my ink from hobbicolors in the USA as its almost a direct match to the oem canon ink. You would need a re setting gizmo to reset the carts chips Have a look here for sound advice. www.nifty-stuff.com/forum/ -- As you said,just buy the ink in bulk, fill with hypodermic, plug hole with bluetac. with pixma you can cancel the chip reporting and just watch ink levels manually. |
#32
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#34
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 3 Oct,
Alan wrote: In message , wrote Get a laser printer, you know it makes sense! Do colour laser printers give an acceptable results for photo outputs or are they more suited to the type of output where you have blocks of a limited colour range in, say, something like a logo. Mine is reasonably good on photos, a dedicated photo printer would be better, but it doesn't have any striations that a typical 3/4 colour inkjet gives. Photo prints are achievable next day, and much cheaper than inkjets, from many on-line printers. Many of the cheap inkjets these days are 1400 to 5000+ dpi whereas a most of the affordable lasers are still in the 300 or 600 dpi range. I think the laser will modulate the dots, unlike a typical inkjet. This allows gradations that would need more dots on an inkjet. I'm much more impressed with its output than I've ever been been with inkjets. SWMBO has never complained either! Another big advantage is the output is waterproof. -- B Thumbs Change lycos to yahoo to reply |
#36
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Injet printer cartridge refills
Dave Liquorice wrote:
Yep, that was my logic as well for dumping the mono laser and colour inkjet in favour of a colour laser. The colour laser is fine for most output and if I want something done properly I send away and get it done properly... What colour laser printer did you choose, as a matter of interest? (I'm about to make such a choice choice.) -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland |
#37
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 12:58:06 +0100, Timothy Murphy wrote:
What colour laser printer did you choose, as a matter of interest? HP Colour LaserJet CP1515n. It's on my LAN so is accessable from all machines. It does occasionally (once every couple of months) disappear from the LAN as far as printing is concerned but you can still talk to it over the LAN to its web interface... -- Cheers Dave. |
#38
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 01/10/2010 21:50, Wesley wrote:
I've been using refill kits, both black and colour, for about 7 years, and I've always been very happy with the results. Same here - never had a problem except once when I didn't use the printer for abour six weeks and the heads dried up. But I believe this could have happened even if I had been using Canon ink. Out of nothing but curiosity, are the ink nozzles in the printer or the cartridge? I once had an Epson photo printer and the nozzles on that are in the printer and I had to use a full brand new cartridge to unblock them when I hadn't used it over the summer. I have now switched to HP printers and in general, I have been pleased with them. I was in Staples yesterday and there was a woman pushing Kodak printers and how little the ink costs and how many pages it would print. She showed me one manufactures cart. that was reputed to print X number of photos and then the Kodak one, which would print twice the number at a lower cost per cart. Has anyone had any experience with Kodak printers? Dave |
#39
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 03/10/2010 09:46, Alan wrote:
In message , wrote Get a laser printer, you know it makes sense! Do colour laser printers give an acceptable results for photo outputs or are they more suited to the type of output where you have blocks of a limited colour range in, say, something like a logo. Many of the cheap inkjets these days are 1400 to 5000+ dpi whereas a most of the affordable lasers are still in the 300 or 600 dpi range. I tried printing a colour photo onto an A4 glossy photo paper and it came out matte I couldn't fault the quality though. Dave |
#40
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Injet printer cartridge refills
On 5 Oct,
Dave wrote: I tried printing a colour photo onto an A4 glossy photo paper and it came out matte I couldn't fault the quality though. Be wary with using inkjet (coated) photo paper on lasers. It may ruin the fuser. Lasers use heat to fix the toner. Anyone know a source of laser photo paper? -- B Thumbs Change lycos to yahoo to reply |
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