Piano wheels
 

I have an upright piano (can't play but my daughter can).

It's a nice piano, and pretty heavy.

Problem is it has tiny metal wheels which play havoc with slate.

I found some meaty proper piano wheels on the web (designed for school
pianos).

But knowing that pianos are made out of pretty substantial wood, I was
wondering if there were any gotcha's with screwing them on? Like maybe
drilling clearance holes only a little smaller than the screw thread? And
the correct type of screw (coach screws?).

What sort of wood are piano structural members made from?

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

Piano wheels
 

Tim Watts wrote:

I have an upright piano (can't play but my daughter can).

It's a nice piano, and pretty heavy.

Problem is it has tiny metal wheels which play havoc with slate.

I found some meaty proper piano wheels on the web (designed for school

^^^^ rubber tyred

pianos).

But knowing that pianos are made out of pretty substantial wood, I was
wondering if there were any gotcha's with screwing them on? Like maybe
drilling clearance holes only a little smaller than the screw thread? And
the correct type of screw (coach screws?).

What sort of wood are piano structural members made from?

Cheers

Tim


--
Tim Watts

Piano wheels
 

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
Tim Watts wrote:

I have an upright piano (can't play but my daughter can).

It's a nice piano, and pretty heavy.

Problem is it has tiny metal wheels which play havoc with slate.

I found some meaty proper piano wheels on the web (designed for school

^^^^ rubber tyred

pianos).

But knowing that pianos are made out of pretty substantial wood, I was
wondering if there were any gotcha's with screwing them on? Like maybe
drilling clearance holes only a little smaller than the screw thread? And
the correct type of screw (coach screws?).

What sort of wood are piano structural members made from?

Cheers

Tim

The one we had in our hall (scratching the tiles as the tiny wheels rarely
actually turn in any case...) was anything but substantial wood inside.
Looked lovely on the outside, but when I pondered the internal wreckage of
crappy tinder dry bits of wood fallen down or broken all over the place, I
decided I had better things to do with my time and passed it on to someone
else for a restoral hobby. If yours is in any way valuable or antique I
would ask a valuer for an opinion before starting any changes. Otherwise,
just try it and see.

I can imagine the surface you stand it on and the degree of damping provided
by the wheel materials and attachment might make a difference to the sound.
I would imagine your daughter will have to be the final judge of that.

S

Piano wheels
 

Spamlet wrote:


The one we had in our hall (scratching the tiles as the tiny wheels rarely
actually turn in any case...) was anything but substantial wood inside.
Looked lovely on the outside, but when I pondered the internal wreckage of
crappy tinder dry bits of wood fallen down or broken all over the place, I
decided I had better things to do with my time and passed it on to someone
else for a restoral hobby. If yours is in any way valuable or antique I
would ask a valuer for an opinion before starting any changes.

I don't think it is an antique, but it is a very respectable make - hasn't
been tuned yet after many years and only a couple of notes are off.

Fair point though.

Otherwise,
just try it and see.

I can imagine the surface you stand it on and the degree of damping
provided by the wheel materials and attachment might make a difference to
the sound. I would imagine your daughter will have to be the final judge
of that.

I suppose that could make a difference - but at the end, my floor is more
important, so the piano gets the short straw on this one (I consider it
essential to be able to move it easily for cleaning without having to load
it on a dolly!). Daughter is 6 - so she won't notice. When I say she can
play better than me, it's true. She's well onto to two hands and can
basically sight read (I never could).

The other option I suppose, is to have a carrier frame with wheels that it
sits on. Sadly that's the sort of thing a few bits of box iron and a Mig
would knock up, but I'm Mig deprived right now.

I guess I should try normal pilot holes for the bolts, and if they are too
tight, drill out until it feels right. These mega wheels have a proper
square mounting plate that is larger than the area scribed by the wheel in
any rotation, so with no real turning forces, the screws are only for
lateral restraint - they don't have to take a huge amount of force.

Sounds like a couple of quilts and get it on its back time.

--
Tim Watts

Piano wheels
 

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
Spamlet wrote:


The one we had in our hall (scratching the tiles as the tiny wheels
rarely
actually turn in any case...) was anything but substantial wood inside.
Looked lovely on the outside, but when I pondered the internal wreckage
of
crappy tinder dry bits of wood fallen down or broken all over the place,
I
decided I had better things to do with my time and passed it on to
someone
else for a restoral hobby. If yours is in any way valuable or antique I
would ask a valuer for an opinion before starting any changes.

I don't think it is an antique, but it is a very respectable make - hasn't
been tuned yet after many years and only a couple of notes are off.

Fair point though.

Otherwise,
just try it and see.

I can imagine the surface you stand it on and the degree of damping
provided by the wheel materials and attachment might make a difference to
the sound. I would imagine your daughter will have to be the final judge
of that.

I suppose that could make a difference - but at the end, my floor is more
important, so the piano gets the short straw on this one (I consider it
essential to be able to move it easily for cleaning without having to load
it on a dolly!). Daughter is 6 - so she won't notice. When I say she can
play better than me, it's true. She's well onto to two hands and can
basically sight read (I never could).

The other option I suppose, is to have a carrier frame with wheels that it
sits on. Sadly that's the sort of thing a few bits of box iron and a Mig
would knock up, but I'm Mig deprived right now.

I guess I should try normal pilot holes for the bolts, and if they are too
tight, drill out until it feels right. These mega wheels have a proper
square mounting plate that is larger than the area scribed by the wheel in
any rotation, so with no real turning forces, the screws are only for
lateral restraint - they don't have to take a huge amount of force.

Sounds like a couple of quilts and get it on its back time.

--
Tim Watts

Whip the front panels off first and look inside to see what is above where
you intend to drill; and watch out for the wooden levers that operate the
foot pedals: they may come adrift if you try tipping it up etc. Inside will
be tinder dry and glue and string (used variously to hold the hammers
together and possibly other things) will be ready to give up the ghost at
any time, if it is anything like the inside of the one we had.

Carefully does it!
And my niece was similar: sight reading second nature to her and cannot
understand why I can't hum along when she flourishes some music in front of
me!

Incidentally, I often find the easiest way to move heavy things is to pull
them along on a piece of carpet. My handy piece actually was borrowed quite
extensively up and down the road this winter for moving cars out of the
snow!

S

Piano wheels
 

Tim Watts wrote:
I have an upright piano (can't play but my daughter can).

It's a nice piano, and pretty heavy.

Problem is it has tiny metal wheels which play havoc with slate.

I found some meaty proper piano wheels on the web (designed for school
pianos).

But knowing that pianos are made out of pretty substantial wood, I was
wondering if there were any gotcha's with screwing them on? Like maybe
drilling clearance holes only a little smaller than the screw thread? And
the correct type of screw (coach screws?).

What sort of wood are piano structural members made from?


Ooh, you don't want to do that. I expect that the wheels you have seen
are for making a dolly to move the piano, and require a mechanism to put
the piano back on the floor when you're finished moving it.

If you put large diameter wheels permanently on (the bottom of) a piano,
you will have to consider that you will be raising the piano up, which
means that the pedals will be off the floor, the keyboard will be too
high and you may not have enough adjustment in the bench. To get around
this you would need to put the piano on a dolly which was big enough to
put the bench on as well. This would not look good in a domestic
environment.

What you would normally do in a domestic environment is put your piano
on castor cups. There are various options: -

http://www.pianoaccessoryshop.co.uk/...ups-368-0.html

http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-access...shop/index.php

also called caster cups and glides if you're Googling.


HTH
DaveyOz

Piano wheels
 

Dave Osborne wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:
I have an upright piano (can't play but my daughter can).

It's a nice piano, and pretty heavy.

Problem is it has tiny metal wheels which play havoc with slate.

I found some meaty proper piano wheels on the web (designed for school
pianos).

But knowing that pianos are made out of pretty substantial wood, I was
wondering if there were any gotcha's with screwing them on? Like maybe
drilling clearance holes only a little smaller than the screw thread? And
the correct type of screw (coach screws?).

What sort of wood are piano structural members made from?


Ooh, you don't want to do that. I expect that the wheels you have seen
are for making a dolly to move the piano, and require a mechanism to put
the piano back on the floor when you're finished moving it.

If you put large diameter wheels permanently on (the bottom of) a piano,
you will have to consider that you will be raising the piano up, which
means that the pedals will be off the floor, the keyboard will be too
high and you may not have enough adjustment in the bench. To get around
this you would need to put the piano on a dolly which was big enough to
put the bench on as well. This would not look good in a domestic
environment.

What you would normally do in a domestic environment is put your piano
on castor cups. There are various options: -

http://www.pianoaccessoryshop.co.uk/...ups-368-0.html

http://www.uk-piano.org/piano-access...shop/index.php

also called caster cups and glides if you're Googling.


HTH
DaveyOz

I was just thinking of sliding it over something. Like hardboard. Remembered
people said that worked for washing machines and the like. If that doesn't
work, sheet metal probably would. Or teflon sheet, if that could be had for
sensible money. It's fairly hard stuff in solid form from my recollection of
once seeing a block of it.

For cleaning/decorating, it's not too much trouble to whip out a bit of
hardboard, and it should be perfectly feasible to move it into the hall with
3-4 boards.

I take your point about raising the height, and Spamlet's about bits falling
off. Having just tried lifting it, I could just get one end off the ground,
barely, and I'm used to lifting. Got to be 1/4 ton or more in all.

I expect the wheel bearings are shot anyway and bumpy slate doesn't really
go well with 3cm dia brass rollers!

However, it would be quite easy to tip it slightly to get hardboard under
the front. I'll get some next time I'm down B&Q and try it.

It's an inherited piano - not complaining, it's very nice - but if I had to
actually buy one, I know for sure I'd get an electronic one - they weigh and
cost rather less!

Re the castor cups - do you think they'd work on slate? I can see them
(assuming they are plastic) getting ground away in pretty short order.

--
Tim Watts

Piano wheels
 

Tim Watts wrote:


http://www.pianoaccessoryshop.co.uk/...ups-368-0.html

BTW - these were the wheels I was looking at a month or so ago:

http://www.pianoaccessoryshop.co.uk/...et-1212-0.html
--
Tim Watts

Piano wheels
 

On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 02:44:45 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

For cleaning/decorating, it's not too much trouble to whip out a bit of
hardboard, and it should be perfectly feasible to move it into the hall
with 3-4 boards.

I don't think you'll find hardboard will work particulary well for a
piano, they are damn sight heavier than a washing machine. Also any
small bits of grit caught between the hardboard and floor will make
some lovely scratches... I think you'll also need something thick
enough to raise the piano off its wheels and spread the load over as
much of the base area as possible. Working on the basis that friction
between two surfaces is a function of the load pressing them
together.

How about a bit of ply (15mm?) and thick carpet glued firmly
together? Carpet back to ply, use with pile side against the slate
floor. You may need something noslip on the other side of the ply to
stop the piano sliding on the ply and include some large handles in
the sides/ends of the ply so you can push pull it with a rope rather
than shove on the piano.

Got to be 1/4 ton or more in all.

At least... how often do you intend to move the piano? Generally
speaking they don't like being moved as it messes up the tuning, same
for the enviroment they are in they like a steady temp and humidity.

Re the castor cups - do you think they'd work on slate? I can see them
(assuming they are plastic) getting ground away in pretty short order.

Again hard so any grit will make a nice grinding paste... You might
get away with felt pads on the bottom of castor cups. They would be
good for felt based ones would be good for spreading the load when
the piano is in posisition without raising it up 3"...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Piano wheels
 

In article ,
Dave Osborne writes:

If you put large diameter wheels permanently on (the bottom of) a piano,
you will have to consider that you will be raising the piano up, which
means that the pedals will be off the floor, the keyboard will be too
high and you may not have enough adjustment in the bench. To get around
this you would need to put the piano on a dolly which was big enough to
put the bench on as well. This would not look good in a domestic
environment.

I've seen larger casters fixed on outriggers on upright pianos
in schools. Enables the piano to remain correct hight off the
ground, and adds stability when wheeling. Tried googling but I
couldn't find any pictures. Probably got some special name.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Piano wheels
 

Tim Watts wrote:

Re the castor cups - do you think they'd work on slate? I can see them
(assuming they are plastic) getting ground away in pretty short order.


Run of the mill castor cups are thermosetting plastic with a disc of
nylon or (in the deluxe version Teflon) bonded to the base. They will
last forever.

I recommend you find a location for the piano and aim not to move it!
Use castor cups for everyday floor protection.

If you need to move the piano occasionally to decorate behind, buy or
improvise a temporary dolly.

If you are set on using the rubber wheels shown, then screw them in
place of the existing castors.

Piano wheels
 

Dave Osborne wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:

Re the castor cups - do you think they'd work on slate? I can see them
(assuming they are plastic) getting ground away in pretty short order.


Run of the mill castor cups are thermosetting plastic with a disc of
nylon or (in the deluxe version Teflon) bonded to the base. They will
last forever.

I recommend you find a location for the piano and aim not to move it!
Use castor cups for everyday floor protection.

If you need to move the piano occasionally to decorate behind, buy or
improvise a temporary dolly.

If you are set on using the rubber wheels shown, then screw them in
place of the existing castors.

I'm very much against having stuff I can't move without a huge effort
(especially now as I need to move stuff around for fixing the house and if
nothing else, it always gets filthy down the back).

I'll try with various sheets of material as a sliding sheet (aiming that the
sheet remains still on the floor and the piano slides on the sheet) and if
that doesn't work, I'll go talk to the piano shop in T Wells and ask about
castors.

Thinking about the height variation with large castors, that can always be
solved by a footrest in front of the pedals.

The emphasis here is pianos are very nice, unless they hamper everything I
try and do around them. Compromises are fine because if this thing gets in
my way too often, it's out the door! It's already in my bad books for
scratching the dining room floor (despite being delivered on a dolly). I'm
pretty sure the scratches will disappear with another coat of floor sealer,
but I don't want to be doing that too often.

I'll check out some felt glides too, possibly something in metal with wide
area.

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

Piano wheels
 

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Dave Osborne writes:
If you put large diameter wheels permanently on (the bottom of) a piano,
you will have to consider that you will be raising the piano up, which
means that the pedals will be off the floor, the keyboard will be too
high and you may not have enough adjustment in the bench. To get around
this you would need to put the piano on a dolly which was big enough to
put the bench on as well. This would not look good in a domestic
environment.

I've seen larger casters fixed on outriggers on upright pianos
in schools. Enables the piano to remain correct hight off the
ground, and adds stability when wheeling. Tried googling but I
couldn't find any pictures. Probably got some special name.


AOL Can't find 'em either. I've got a feeling some have some sort of
cam arrangement, so you jack the piano up off its normal casters to move
it and drop it down again when in place.

Did find these, tho'

http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/cat...stors/723.html

http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/cat...stors/725.html

Piano wheels
 

Dave Osborne wrote:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Dave Osborne writes:
If you put large diameter wheels permanently on (the bottom of) a
piano, you will have to consider that you will be raising the piano
up, which means that the pedals will be off the floor, the keyboard
will be too high and you may not have enough adjustment in the bench.
To get around this you would need to put the piano on a dolly which
was big enough to put the bench on as well. This would not look good
in a domestic environment.

I've seen larger casters fixed on outriggers on upright pianos
in schools. Enables the piano to remain correct hight off the
ground, and adds stability when wheeling. Tried googling but I
couldn't find any pictures. Probably got some special name.


AOL Can't find 'em either. I've got a feeling some have some sort of
cam arrangement, so you jack the piano up off its normal casters to move
it and drop it down again when in place.

Did find these, tho'

http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/cat...stors/723.html

http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/cat...stors/725.html

and this:

http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/cat...ment/m106.html

Piano wheels
 

On 8/22/2010 5:57 AM, Dave Liquorice wrote:

How about a bit of ply (15mm?) and thick carpet glued firmly
together? Carpet back to ply, use with pile side against the slate
floor. You may need something noslip on the other side of the ply to
stop the piano sliding on the ply

Or shallow recesses in the plywood?

Piano wheels
 

Dave Osborne wrote:


http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/cat...stors/725.html

Those look like the business - thanks! Minimum fitting and big runner
wheels.

I bet they cost, but they'll be worth it :)

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

Piano wheels
 

On Sun, 22 Aug 2010 13:16:39 +0100, Tim Watts wrote:

Dave Osborne wrote:


http://www.fletcher-newman.co.uk/cat...stors/725.html

Those look like the business - thanks! Minimum fitting and big runner
wheels.

I bet they cost, but they'll be worth it :)

In the spirit of the group, build yourself a hover-piano... :-)

Our piano's early 1900s and weighs a flippin' ton - was a chore getting
it across the hardwood floors without damaging them. I re-christened it
the paino.

cheers

Jules

you have more than likely sorted this out but for future readers

if its a 1900 piano then it more than likely has front toes this type of piano needs a rear toe kit if it is to be moved a lot, as the piano is back heavy However, if you do not intend to move it a lot then stranded homa castors will do with rubber wheels.

Modern pianos with no toe need a cradle type castor for stability

Fixing new casters to a piano is not difficult However, Putting the wrong type of castors on a piano can be dangerous and if the piano is in a public place you have a duty of care to fill safety castors


there is a website that lists the different types of castors to fit to pianos not sure if I can post links to sites but if you type in Google

"What Type of castor do we need for our piano"

you should find it

Barrie