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#1
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Dropped bricks above window
Hello,
Continuing my inspection of the brickwork I have noticed that the bricks above the kitchen window have dropped slightly and there are zig-zag cracks in the mortar going up and in from the corners. The lintel above the window is a row of bricks placed on end (verticalically), It is these vertical bricks that have dropped causing the brickwork above to drop. 9 years ago we had all the windows replaced with uPVC frames. This may be the cause as uPVC frames aren't structual. But this would mean the old wooden frames were taking some of the weight. Could this be right? Would it have been designed this way? So how do I fix it and also could someone explain how bricks placed on end work as a lintel? I don't really see it myself. Thanks, Graham |
#2
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Dropped bricks above window
On 16/07/2010 15:01, Graham Jones wrote:
Hello, Continuing my inspection of the brickwork I have noticed that the bricks above the kitchen window have dropped slightly and there are zig-zag cracks in the mortar going up and in from the corners. The lintel above the window is a row of bricks placed on end (verticalically), It is these vertical bricks that have dropped causing the brickwork above to drop. 9 years ago we had all the windows replaced with uPVC frames. This may be the cause as uPVC frames aren't structual. But this would mean the old wooden frames were taking some of the weight. Could this be right? Would it have been designed this way? So how do I fix it and also could someone explain how bricks placed on end work as a lintel? I don't really see it myself. Thanks, Graham Some further info. The uPVC window hasn't bowed in any way. Also the house is a cavity wall construction. All the windows in the house have solider bricks (I've just found out there are called this!) in the external walls above them as lintels. But what about the internal walls, would these too have soldier bricks or would these have proper lintels. There are no internal signs of problems above the kitchen window. Thanks, Graham |
#3
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Dropped bricks above window
On Jul 16, 3:01*pm, Graham Jones wrote:
Hello, Continuing my inspection of the brickwork I have noticed that the bricks above the kitchen window have dropped slightly and there are zig-zag cracks in the mortar going up and in from the corners. The lintel above the window is a row of bricks placed on end (verticalically), It is these vertical bricks that have dropped causing the brickwork above to drop. 9 years ago we had all the windows replaced with uPVC frames. This may be the cause as uPVC frames aren't structual. But this would mean the old wooden frames were taking some of the weight. Could this be right? Would it have been designed this way? So how do I fix it and also could someone explain how bricks placed on end work as a lintel? I don't really see it myself. Thanks, Graham piccy best so we see the extent of the issue NT |
#4
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Dropped bricks above window
Graham Jones wrote:
On 16/07/2010 15:01, Graham Jones wrote: Hello, Continuing my inspection of the brickwork I have noticed that the bricks above the kitchen window have dropped slightly and there are zig-zag cracks in the mortar going up and in from the corners. The lintel above the window is a row of bricks placed on end (verticalically), It is these vertical bricks that have dropped causing the brickwork above to drop. 9 years ago we had all the windows replaced with uPVC frames. This may be the cause as uPVC frames aren't structual. But this would mean the old wooden frames were taking some of the weight. Could this be right? Would it have been designed this way? So how do I fix it and also could someone explain how bricks placed on end work as a lintel? I don't really see it myself. Thanks, Graham Some further info. The uPVC window hasn't bowed in any way. Also the house is a cavity wall construction. All the windows in the house have solider bricks (I've just found out there are called this!) in the external walls above them as lintels. The soldiers aren't acting as lintels, they are stood upright on a lintel, you just can't see it. But what about the internal walls, would these too have soldier bricks or would these have proper lintels. There are no internal signs of problems above the kitchen window. The internal walls, depending on the age, could be timber, concrete or metal lintels, probably metal as it sounds like the exterior ones are on metal. This said, it was shoddy practice for a short while in the 60's to just build the external soldiers direclty on top of the frame, there was a housebuilder called calderbank & fairhurst who built several estates like this, needless to say they went out of buisness. To check if there is a lintel, get a screwdriver and poke it between frame and brickwork and see what's there, my guess is metal. -- Phil L RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008 |
#5
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Dropped bricks above window
Phil L wrote:
This said, it was shoddy practice for a short while in the 60's to just build the external soldiers direclty on top of the frame, there was a housebuilder called calderbank & fairhurst who built several estates like this, needless to say they went out of buisness. just read your other post about cracks etc and noticed that the house is 45 years old? not a good sign considering it was mid 60's that these cowboys were operating...start ****ting bricks if any of the roads on your estate contain the words 'calder', 'fair', 'hurst' or 'bank', they usually named the roads after themselves or at least parts of their names were often used. Even saying that, there were other housebuilders around at the time who flung up these monstrosities, have a look around at neighbouring houses, have they had brickwork replaced above the downstairs front window? - usually in a triangle shape. -- Phil L RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008 |
#6
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Dropped bricks above window
On 16/07/2010 16:55, Phil L wrote:
Phil L wrote: This said, it was shoddy practice for a short while in the 60's to just build the external soldiers direclty on top of the frame, there was a housebuilder called calderbank& fairhurst who built several estates like this, needless to say they went out of buisness. just read your other post about cracks etc and noticed that the house is 45 years old? not a good sign considering it was mid 60's that these cowboys were operating...start ****ting bricks if any of the roads on your estate contain the words 'calder', 'fair', 'hurst' or 'bank', they usually named the roads after themselves or at least parts of their names were often used. Even saying that, there were other housebuilders around at the time who flung up these monstrosities, have a look around at neighbouring houses, have they had brickwork replaced above the downstairs front window? - usually in a triangle shape. Yes it was built mid 60's, I think it was a Wimpey house. There was only one place I could fit a screwdriver between frame and brick, all 6" of the blade disappeared. I am pretty sure the bricks are right on the frame as levering the screwdriver up and down moves the bricks and causes the frame to creak. have a look around at neighbouring houses, have they had brickwork replaced above the downstairs front window? This is interesting as nearly all similar houses on the estate have had some pointing in a triangular shape above the downstairs front window. In fact it was mentioned in the surveyors report when we bought the house. This seems OK though as it has not changed in the 10 years we have been here. Now the bricks have only moved dropped by at most 3mm, so this is either after 45 years or after 9 years of the window replaced. So I am guessing it is not a huge problem. But the bricks are unsupported, so what are my options? Thanks, Graham |
#7
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Dropped bricks above window
Graham Jones wrote:
On 16/07/2010 16:55, Phil L wrote: Phil L wrote: This said, it was shoddy practice for a short while in the 60's to just build the external soldiers direclty on top of the frame, there was a housebuilder called calderbank& fairhurst who built several estates like this, needless to say they went out of buisness. just read your other post about cracks etc and noticed that the house is 45 years old? not a good sign considering it was mid 60's that these cowboys were operating...start ****ting bricks if any of the roads on your estate contain the words 'calder', 'fair', 'hurst' or 'bank', they usually named the roads after themselves or at least parts of their names were often used. Even saying that, there were other housebuilders around at the time who flung up these monstrosities, have a look around at neighbouring houses, have they had brickwork replaced above the downstairs front window? - usually in a triangle shape. Yes it was built mid 60's, I think it was a Wimpey house. There was only one place I could fit a screwdriver between frame and brick, all 6" of the blade disappeared. I am pretty sure the bricks are right on the frame as levering the screwdriver up and down moves the bricks and causes the frame to creak. have a look around at neighbouring houses, have they had brickwork replaced above the downstairs front window? This is interesting as nearly all similar houses on the estate have had some pointing in a triangular shape above the downstairs front window. In fact it was mentioned in the surveyors report when we bought the house. This seems OK though as it has not changed in the 10 years we have been here. Now the bricks have only moved dropped by at most 3mm, so this is either after 45 years or after 9 years of the window replaced. So I am guessing it is not a huge problem. But the bricks are unsupported, so what are my options? You don't really have any! - there are no lintels in your house, you've just verified this by mentioning the neighbour's triangular pointing etc. If the windows are only 9 years old and they are adequateoly holding everything up, then just leave it as it is, other than that it means removing each window frame, at least all the downstairs ones, installing lintels and then putting the frames back in, if they fit. The bricks are supported, they're supported by the frame, and the frames will contain metal, I wouldn't ponder too long on this otherwise you may require another mortgage -- Phil L RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008 |
#8
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Dropped bricks above window
On Jul 16, 6:43*pm, "Phil L" wrote:
Graham Jones wrote: On 16/07/2010 16:55, Phil L wrote: Phil L wrote: This said, it was shoddy practice for a short while in the 60's to just build the external soldiers direclty on top of the frame, there was a housebuilder called calderbank& *fairhurst who built several estates like this, needless to say they went out of buisness. just read your other post about cracks etc and noticed that the house is 45 years old? not a good sign considering it was mid 60's that these cowboys were operating...start ****ting bricks if any of the roads on your estate contain the words 'calder', 'fair', 'hurst' or 'bank', they usually named the roads after themselves or at least parts of their names were often used. Even saying that, there were other housebuilders around at the time who flung up these monstrosities, have a look around at neighbouring houses, have they had brickwork replaced above the downstairs front window? - usually in a triangle shape. Yes it was built mid 60's, I think it was a Wimpey house. There was only one place I could fit a screwdriver between frame and brick, all 6" of the blade disappeared. I am pretty sure the bricks are right on the frame as levering the screwdriver up and down moves the bricks and causes the frame to creak. have a look around at neighbouring houses, have they had brickwork replaced above the downstairs front window? This is interesting as nearly all similar houses on the estate have had some pointing in a triangular shape above the downstairs front window. In fact it was mentioned in the surveyors report when we bought the house. This seems OK though as it has not changed in the 10 years we have been here. Now the bricks have only moved dropped by at most 3mm, so this is either after 45 years or after 9 years of the window replaced. So I am guessing it is not a huge problem. But the bricks are unsupported, so what are my options? You don't really have any! - there are no lintels in your house, you've just verified this by mentioning the neighbour's triangular pointing etc. If the windows are only 9 years old and they are adequateoly holding everything up, then just leave it as it is, other than that it means removing each window frame, at least all the downstairs ones, installing lintels and then putting the frames back in, if they fit. The bricks are supported, they're supported by the frame, and the frames will contain metal, I wouldn't ponder too *long on this otherwise you may require another mortgage Not at all. Such minor structural issues arent hard to fix. However it sounds like it probably just warrants patching up for now, and leave it. It then might or might not need a more thorough repair in another 20 years. Place timber support under the dropped brickwork, rake out the cracked joints and remortar them. Don't rake out lots at once as you don't want to destabilise it all, rake & remortar it part by part. A permanent fix would require a support fitting under the dropped brickwork, either a lintel or a sufficiently strong window frame to support it. With no picture though theres always the possibility of this being off, as I was remined on the last thread NT |
#9
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Dropped bricks above window
NT wrote:
Not at all. Such minor structural issues arent hard to fix. However it sounds like it probably just warrants patching up for now, and leave it. It then might or might not need a more thorough repair in another 20 years. Place timber support under the dropped brickwork, rake out the cracked joints and remortar them. Don't rake out lots at once as you don't want to destabilise it all, rake & remortar it part by part. The problem with this theory is that when cracks have appeared (as in this case) and the bricks have already dropped a few mm (as in this case) when the frame is removed, the brickwork above falls down A permanent fix would require a support fitting under the dropped brickwork, either a lintel or a sufficiently strong window frame to support it. A lintel is required, and it's probably safe to say that there are none in the house at all, so really, they could al do with being installed, this requires cutting out brickwork to the sides of the openings, thus making the patch of dropped brickwork even bigger With no picture though theres always the possibility of this being off, as I was remined on the last thread Nah, he's got no lintels, his house is a lintel-free zone, he owns as many lintels as my dog, IE none :-p -- Phil L RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008 |
#10
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Dropped bricks above window
On 16 July, 15:01, Graham Jones wrote:
Hello, Continuing my inspection of the brickwork I have noticed that the bricks above the kitchen window have dropped slightly and there are zig-zag cracks in the mortar going up and in from the corners. The lintel above the window is a row of bricks placed on end (verticalically), It is these vertical bricks that have dropped causing the brickwork above to drop. 9 years ago we had all the windows replaced with uPVC frames. This may be the cause as uPVC frames aren't structual. But this would mean the old wooden frames were taking some of the weight. Could this be right? Would it have been designed this way? So how do I fix it and also could someone explain how bricks placed on end work as a lintel? I don't really see it myself. Thanks, Graham You don't say how wide the window s which has a bearing on the subject. Also how close the window is to the corner of the house. The wider the adjacent pillar, the better chance yo have of getting away with it. PVC windows are not gong to hold anything up. If the glass cracks or they become hard to open is the time to worry. Just pointing up is a bodge which you might get away with but most likely not. If new cracks appear after repointing, brickwork will have to be removed and a steel lintel installed. this will also affect the interior wall (any cracks there BTW?) and decorations. |
#11
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Dropped bricks above window
On Jul 16, 7:13*pm, "Phil L" wrote:
NT wrote: Not at all. Such minor structural issues arent hard to fix. However it sounds like it probably just warrants patching up for now, and leave it. It then might or might not need a more thorough repair in another 20 years. Place timber support under the dropped brickwork, rake out the cracked joints and remortar them. Don't rake out lots at once as you don't want to destabilise it all, rake & remortar it part by part. The problem with this theory is that when cracks have appeared (as in this case) and the bricks have already dropped a few mm (as in this case) when the frame is removed, the brickwork above falls down First its not a theory. Second why do you think bricks mortared in place would fall down? The added support is only needed while mortar is cut out in the damaged area. A permanent fix would require a support fitting under the dropped brickwork, either a lintel or a sufficiently strong window frame to support it. A lintel is required, and it's probably safe to say that there are none in the house at all, so really, they could al do with being installed, this requires cutting out brickwork to the sides of the openings, thus making the patch of dropped brickwork even bigger nonsense, there are masses of houses with no lintels. There's no reason to do work that doesnt need doing. With no picture though theres always the possibility of this being off, as I was remined on the last thread Nah, he's got no lintels, his house is a lintel-free zone, he owns as many lintels as my dog, IE none :-p Probably so, so what. NT |
#12
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Dropped bricks above window
NT wrote:
On Jul 16, 7:13 pm, "Phil L" wrote: NT wrote: Not at all. Such minor structural issues arent hard to fix. However it sounds like it probably just warrants patching up for now, and leave it. It then might or might not need a more thorough repair in another 20 years. Place timber support under the dropped brickwork, rake out the cracked joints and remortar them. Don't rake out lots at once as you don't want to destabilise it all, rake & remortar it part by part. The problem with this theory is that when cracks have appeared (as in this case) and the bricks have already dropped a few mm (as in this case) when the frame is removed, the brickwork above falls down First its not a theory. Second why do you think bricks mortared in place would fall down? The added support is only needed while mortar is cut out in the damaged area. Bricks have a tendency not to float in mid-air, hence the requirement of lintels. It's fine as it is with a frame in place, and I suppose it could be strengthened up by some fairly strong patch pointing, with the frame still in place, but removing the frame now would cause the brickwork to land on the floor A permanent fix would require a support fitting under the dropped brickwork, either a lintel or a sufficiently strong window frame to support it. A lintel is required, and it's probably safe to say that there are none in the house at all, so really, they could al do with being installed, this requires cutting out brickwork to the sides of the openings, thus making the patch of dropped brickwork even bigger nonsense, there are masses of houses with no lintels. There's no reason to do work that doesnt need doing. I know, which is why I typed: "then just leave it as it is, other than that it means removing each window frame, at least all the downstairs ones, installing lintels and then putting the frames back in, if they fit. The bricks are supported, they're supported by the frame, and the frames will contain metal, I wouldn't ponder too long on this otherwise you may require another mortgage" With no picture though theres always the possibility of this being off, as I was remined on the last thread Nah, he's got no lintels, his house is a lintel-free zone, he owns as many lintels as my dog, IE none :-p Probably so, so what. So nothing, you said you may be mistaken and I said you weren't, he has no lintels, and my advice is to do nothing unless problems start to arise like buckled window frames, cracked units etc -- Phil L RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008 |
#13
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Dropped bricks above window
On Jul 17, 4:44*pm, "Phil L" wrote:
NT wrote: On Jul 16, 7:13 pm, "Phil L" wrote: NT wrote: Not at all. Such minor structural issues arent hard to fix. However it sounds like it probably just warrants patching up for now, and leave it. It then might or might not need a more thorough repair in another 20 years. Place timber support under the dropped brickwork, rake out the cracked joints and remortar them. Don't rake out lots at once as you don't want to destabilise it all, rake & remortar it part by part. The problem with this theory is that when cracks have appeared (as in this case) and the bricks have already dropped a few mm (as in this case) when the frame is removed, the brickwork above falls down First its not a theory. Second why do you think bricks mortared in place would fall down? The added support is only needed while mortar is cut out in the damaged area. Bricks have a tendency not to float in mid-air, hence the requirement of lintels. Firstly bricks interlock. Secondly mortar keeps them in place for as long as it doesnt fail. Thirdly soldier courses and arches are held by the fact that they are prevented from spreading sideways, which generally they would do if they dropped. These are the reasons that many houses have no lintels and _dont_ need them. There are also a small subset of lintel-less houses that have no arches and no soldier courses and even those hold up until the mortar disintegrates, such is the power of mortar and the tendency of bricks to try to rotate as they fall, which they are prevented from doing. It's fine as it is with a frame in place, and I suppose it could be strengthened up by some fairly strong patch pointing, with the frame still in place, but removing the frame now would cause the brickwork to land on the floor Why would anyone do that? A permanent fix would require a support fitting under the dropped brickwork, either a lintel or a sufficiently strong window frame to support it. A lintel is required, and it's probably safe to say that there are none in the house at all, so really, they could al do with being installed, this requires cutting out brickwork to the sides of the openings, thus making the patch of dropped brickwork even bigger nonsense, there are masses of houses with no lintels. There's no reason to do work that doesnt need doing. I know, which is why I typed: "then just leave it as it is, other than that it means removing each window frame, at least all the downstairs ones, installing lintels and then putting the frames back in, if they fit. there's simply no need to do that. Things would have to be far worse for that to be indicated. The bricks are supported, they're supported by the frame, and the frames will contain metal, I wouldn't ponder too *long on this otherwise you may require another mortgage" Its just basic brickwork. A bag of cement and a bag or 2 of sand, and in some cases a bit of wood... £8 - £30. With no picture though theres always the possibility of this being off, as I was remined on the last thread Nah, he's got no lintels, his house is a lintel-free zone, he owns as many lintels as my dog, IE none :-p Probably so, so what. So nothing, you said you may be mistaken and I said you weren't, he has no lintels, and my advice is to do nothing unless problems start to arise like buckled window frames, cracked units etc NT |
#14
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Dropped bricks above window
NT wrote:
On Jul 17, 4:44 pm, "Phil L" wrote: NT wrote: On Jul 16, 7:13 pm, "Phil L" wrote: NT wrote: Not at all. Such minor structural issues arent hard to fix. However it sounds like it probably just warrants patching up for now, and leave it. It then might or might not need a more thorough repair in another 20 years. Place timber support under the dropped brickwork, rake out the cracked joints and remortar them. Don't rake out lots at once as you don't want to destabilise it all, rake & remortar it part by part. How would you plan on inserting wooden supports as mentioned in your first post on this subject? - considering the brickwork is in direct contact with the frame, where does this wood go? Firstly bricks interlock. Secondly mortar keeps them in place for as long as it doesnt fail. Thirdly soldier courses and arches are held by the fact that they are prevented from spreading sideways, which generally they would do if they dropped. These are the reasons that many houses have no lintels and _dont_ need them. There are also a small subset of lintel-less houses that have no arches and no soldier courses and even those hold up until the mortar disintegrates, such is the power of mortar and the tendency of bricks to try to rotate as they fall, which they are prevented from doing. Except the whole soldier course has already dropped, causing the courses above to also drop It's fine as it is with a frame in place, and I suppose it could be strengthened up by some fairly strong patch pointing, with the frame still in place, but removing the frame now would cause the brickwork to land on the floor Why would anyone do that? It was a scenario of installing a lintel now he would have to take the frame out first, or risk having it smashed to pieces by falling masonry whilst cutting out for a lintel. -- Phil L RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008 |
#15
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Dropped bricks above window
On Jul 17, 8:01*pm, "Phil L" wrote:
NT wrote: On Jul 17, 4:44 pm, "Phil L" wrote: NT wrote: On Jul 16, 7:13 pm, "Phil L" wrote: NT wrote: Not at all. Such minor structural issues arent hard to fix. However it sounds like it probably just warrants patching up for now, and leave it. It then might or might not need a more thorough repair in another 20 years. Place timber support under the dropped brickwork, rake out the cracked joints and remortar them. Don't rake out lots at once as you don't want to destabilise it all, rake & remortar it part by part. How would you plan on inserting wooden supports as mentioned in your first post on this subject? - considering the brickwork is in direct contact with the frame, where does this wood go? The window frame isnt as deep as the brickwork, just put a horizontal timber across the window opening under the bricks, against the outside of the window, and prop it with verticals resting on the window cill if its concrete or stone, or fixed to something else if its plastic. Firstly bricks interlock. Secondly mortar keeps them in place for as long as it doesnt fail. Thirdly soldier courses and arches are held by the fact that they are prevented from spreading sideways, which generally they would do if they dropped. These are the reasons that many houses have no lintels and _dont_ need them. There are also a small subset of lintel-less houses that have no arches and no soldier courses and even those hold up until the mortar disintegrates, such is the power of mortar and the tendency of bricks to try to rotate as they fall, which they are prevented from doing. Except the whole soldier course has already dropped, causing the courses above to also drop Usually not, but in sometimes it will. But this doesnt mean houses need lintels. This is popularly misunderstood, lnitels are backup devices more than prime supports. It's fine as it is with a frame in place, and I suppose it could be strengthened up by some fairly strong patch pointing, with the frame still in place, but removing the frame now would cause the brickwork to land on the floor Why would anyone do that? It was a scenario of installing a lintel now he would have to take the frame out first, or risk having it smashed to pieces by falling masonry whilst cutting out for a lintel. I dont seen any necessity for a lintel. The only time a lintel is necessary is if a) the brickwork above has dropped far enough that it needs to be removed and rebuilt, at such a time it would not be good practice to omit a lintel b) the brickwork is in danger of destroying the window, ie when the bricks have dropped badly and the window is too weak to prevent fall. And finally, if one does install a lintel under bricks so badly dropped that they might collapse, it makes sense to take the bricks out first. NT |
#16
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Dropped bricks above window
"Graham Jones" wrote in message ... Hello, Continuing my inspection of the brickwork I have noticed that the bricks above the kitchen window have dropped slightly and there are zig-zag cracks in the mortar going up and in from the corners. The lintel above the window is a row of bricks placed on end (verticalically), It is these vertical bricks that have dropped causing the brickwork above to drop. 9 years ago we had all the windows replaced with uPVC frames. This may be the cause as uPVC frames aren't structual. But this would mean the old wooden frames were taking some of the weight. Could this be right? Would it have been designed this way? So how do I fix it and also could someone explain how bricks placed on end work as a lintel? I don't really see it myself. What sort of windows did the uPVC ones replace? Were they concrete, wooden, or steel? |
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