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  #11   Report Post  
Old July 17th 10, 12:09 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Dropped bricks above window

On Jul 16, 7:13*pm, "Phil L" > wrote:
> NT wrote:
>
> > Not at all. Such minor structural issues arent hard to fix. However it
> > sounds like it probably just warrants patching up for now, and leave
> > it. It then might or might not need a more thorough repair in another
> > 20 years.

>
> > Place timber support under the dropped brickwork, rake out the cracked
> > joints and remortar them. Don't rake out lots at once as you don't
> > want to destabilise it all, rake & remortar it part by part.

>
> The problem with this theory is that when cracks have appeared (as in this
> case) and the bricks have already dropped a few mm (as in this case) when
> the frame is removed, the brickwork above falls down


First its not a theory. Second why do you think bricks mortared in
place would fall down? The added support is only needed while mortar
is cut out in the damaged area.


> > A permanent fix would require a support fitting under the dropped
> > brickwork, either a lintel or a sufficiently strong window frame to
> > support it.

>
> A lintel is required, and it's probably safe to say that there are none in
> the house at all, so really, they could al do with being installed, this
> requires cutting out brickwork to the sides of the openings, thus making the
> patch of dropped brickwork even bigger


nonsense, there are masses of houses with no lintels. There's no
reason to do work that doesnt need doing.


> > With no picture though theres always the possibility of this being
> > off, as I was remined on the last thread

>
> Nah, he's got no lintels, his house is a lintel-free zone, he owns as many
> lintels as my dog, IE none :-p


Probably so, so what.


NT

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Old July 17th 10, 04:44 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Dropped bricks above window

NT wrote:
> On Jul 16, 7:13 pm, "Phil L" > wrote:
>> NT wrote:
>>
>>> Not at all. Such minor structural issues arent hard to fix. However
>>> it sounds like it probably just warrants patching up for now, and
>>> leave it. It then might or might not need a more thorough repair in
>>> another 20 years.

>>
>>> Place timber support under the dropped brickwork, rake out the
>>> cracked joints and remortar them. Don't rake out lots at once as
>>> you don't want to destabilise it all, rake & remortar it part by
>>> part.

>>
>> The problem with this theory is that when cracks have appeared (as
>> in this case) and the bricks have already dropped a few mm (as in
>> this case) when the frame is removed, the brickwork above falls down

>
> First its not a theory. Second why do you think bricks mortared in
> place would fall down? The added support is only needed while mortar
> is cut out in the damaged area.
>


Bricks have a tendency not to float in mid-air, hence the requirement of
lintels.
It's fine as it is with a frame in place, and I suppose it could be
strengthened up by some fairly strong patch pointing, with the frame still
in place, but removing the frame now would cause the brickwork to land on
the floor


>
>>> A permanent fix would require a support fitting under the dropped
>>> brickwork, either a lintel or a sufficiently strong window frame to
>>> support it.

>>
>> A lintel is required, and it's probably safe to say that there are
>> none in the house at all, so really, they could al do with being
>> installed, this requires cutting out brickwork to the sides of the
>> openings, thus making the patch of dropped brickwork even bigger

>
> nonsense, there are masses of houses with no lintels. There's no
> reason to do work that doesnt need doing.
>


I know, which is why I typed:

"then just leave it as it is, other than that it means
removing each window frame, at least all the downstairs ones, installing
lintels and then putting the frames back in, if they fit.

The bricks are supported, they're supported by the frame, and the frames
will contain metal, I wouldn't ponder too long on this otherwise you may
require another mortgage"



>
>>> With no picture though theres always the possibility of this being
>>> off, as I was remined on the last thread

>>
>> Nah, he's got no lintels, his house is a lintel-free zone, he owns
>> as many lintels as my dog, IE none :-p

>
> Probably so, so what.
>


So nothing, you said you may be mistaken and I said you weren't, he has no
lintels, and my advice is to do nothing unless problems start to arise like
buckled window frames, cracked units etc


--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008


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Old July 17th 10, 07:45 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Dropped bricks above window

On Jul 17, 4:44*pm, "Phil L" > wrote:
> NT wrote:
> > On Jul 16, 7:13 pm, "Phil L" > wrote:
> >> NT wrote:


> >>> Not at all. Such minor structural issues arent hard to fix. However
> >>> it sounds like it probably just warrants patching up for now, and
> >>> leave it. It then might or might not need a more thorough repair in
> >>> another 20 years.

>
> >>> Place timber support under the dropped brickwork, rake out the
> >>> cracked joints and remortar them. Don't rake out lots at once as
> >>> you don't want to destabilise it all, rake & remortar it part by
> >>> part.

>
> >> The problem with this theory is that when cracks have appeared (as
> >> in this case) and the bricks have already dropped a few mm (as in
> >> this case) when the frame is removed, the brickwork above falls down

>
> > First its not a theory. Second why do you think bricks mortared in
> > place would fall down? The added support is only needed while mortar
> > is cut out in the damaged area.

>
> Bricks have a tendency not to float in mid-air, hence the requirement of
> lintels.


Firstly bricks interlock. Secondly mortar keeps them in place for as
long as it doesnt fail. Thirdly soldier courses and arches are held by
the fact that they are prevented from spreading sideways, which
generally they would do if they dropped. These are the reasons that
many houses have no lintels and _dont_ need them. There are also a
small subset of lintel-less houses that have no arches and no soldier
courses and even those hold up until the mortar disintegrates, such is
the power of mortar and the tendency of bricks to try to rotate as
they fall, which they are prevented from doing.


> It's fine as it is with a frame in place, and I suppose it could be
> strengthened up by some fairly strong patch pointing, with the frame still
> in place, but removing the frame now would cause the brickwork to land on
> the floor


Why would anyone do that?


> >>> A permanent fix would require a support fitting under the dropped
> >>> brickwork, either a lintel or a sufficiently strong window frame to
> >>> support it.

>
> >> A lintel is required, and it's probably safe to say that there are
> >> none in the house at all, so really, they could al do with being
> >> installed, this requires cutting out brickwork to the sides of the
> >> openings, thus making the patch of dropped brickwork even bigger

>
> > nonsense, there are masses of houses with no lintels. There's no
> > reason to do work that doesnt need doing.

>
> I know, which is why I typed:
>
> "then just leave it as it is, other than that it means
> removing each window frame, at least all the downstairs ones, installing
> lintels and then putting the frames back in, if they fit.


there's simply no need to do that. Things would have to be far worse
for that to be indicated.


> The bricks are supported, they're supported by the frame, and the frames
> will contain metal, I wouldn't ponder too *long on this otherwise you may
> require another mortgage"


Its just basic brickwork. A bag of cement and a bag or 2 of sand, and
in some cases a bit of wood... 8 - 30.


> >>> With no picture though theres always the possibility of this being
> >>> off, as I was remined on the last thread

>
> >> Nah, he's got no lintels, his house is a lintel-free zone, he owns
> >> as many lintels as my dog, IE none :-p

>
> > Probably so, so what.

>
> So nothing, you said you may be mistaken and I said you weren't, he has no
> lintels, and my advice is to do nothing unless problems start to arise like
> buckled window frames, cracked units etc



NT
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Old July 17th 10, 08:01 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Dropped bricks above window

NT wrote:
> On Jul 17, 4:44 pm, "Phil L" > wrote:
>> NT wrote:
>>> On Jul 16, 7:13 pm, "Phil L" > wrote:
>>>> NT wrote:

>
>>>>> Not at all. Such minor structural issues arent hard to fix.
>>>>> However it sounds like it probably just warrants patching up for
>>>>> now, and leave it. It then might or might not need a more
>>>>> thorough repair in another 20 years.

>>
>>>>> Place timber support under the dropped brickwork, rake out the
>>>>> cracked joints and remortar them. Don't rake out lots at once as
>>>>> you don't want to destabilise it all, rake & remortar it part by
>>>>> part.

>>


How would you plan on inserting wooden supports as mentioned in your first
post on this subject? - considering the brickwork is in direct contact with
the frame, where does this wood go?

>
> Firstly bricks interlock. Secondly mortar keeps them in place for as
> long as it doesnt fail. Thirdly soldier courses and arches are held by
> the fact that they are prevented from spreading sideways, which
> generally they would do if they dropped. These are the reasons that
> many houses have no lintels and _dont_ need them. There are also a
> small subset of lintel-less houses that have no arches and no soldier
> courses and even those hold up until the mortar disintegrates, such is
> the power of mortar and the tendency of bricks to try to rotate as
> they fall, which they are prevented from doing.
>


Except the whole soldier course has already dropped, causing the courses
above to also drop


>
>> It's fine as it is with a frame in place, and I suppose it could be
>> strengthened up by some fairly strong patch pointing, with the frame
>> still in place, but removing the frame now would cause the brickwork
>> to land on the floor

>
> Why would anyone do that?
>


It was a scenario of installing a lintel now he would have to take the frame
out first, or risk having it smashed to pieces by falling masonry whilst
cutting out for a lintel.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008


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Old July 17th 10, 11:24 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Dropped bricks above window

On Jul 17, 8:01*pm, "Phil L" > wrote:
> NT wrote:
> > On Jul 17, 4:44 pm, "Phil L" > wrote:
> >> NT wrote:
> >>> On Jul 16, 7:13 pm, "Phil L" > wrote:
> >>>> NT wrote:

>
> >>>>> Not at all. Such minor structural issues arent hard to fix.
> >>>>> However it sounds like it probably just warrants patching up for
> >>>>> now, and leave it. It then might or might not need a more
> >>>>> thorough repair in another 20 years.

>
> >>>>> Place timber support under the dropped brickwork, rake out the
> >>>>> cracked joints and remortar them. Don't rake out lots at once as
> >>>>> you don't want to destabilise it all, rake & remortar it part by
> >>>>> part.

>
> How would you plan on inserting wooden supports as mentioned in your first
> post on this subject? - considering the brickwork is in direct contact with
> the frame, where does this wood go?


The window frame isnt as deep as the brickwork, just put a horizontal
timber across the window opening under the bricks, against the outside
of the window, and prop it with verticals resting on the window cill
if its concrete or stone, or fixed to something else if its plastic.


> > Firstly bricks interlock. Secondly mortar keeps them in place for as
> > long as it doesnt fail. Thirdly soldier courses and arches are held by
> > the fact that they are prevented from spreading sideways, which
> > generally they would do if they dropped. These are the reasons that
> > many houses have no lintels and _dont_ need them. There are also a
> > small subset of lintel-less houses that have no arches and no soldier
> > courses and even those hold up until the mortar disintegrates, such is
> > the power of mortar and the tendency of bricks to try to rotate as
> > they fall, which they are prevented from doing.

>
> Except the whole soldier course has already dropped, causing the courses
> above to also drop


Usually not, but in sometimes it will. But this doesnt mean houses
need lintels. This is popularly misunderstood, lnitels are backup
devices more than prime supports.


> >> It's fine as it is with a frame in place, and I suppose it could be
> >> strengthened up by some fairly strong patch pointing, with the frame
> >> still in place, but removing the frame now would cause the brickwork
> >> to land on the floor

>
> > Why would anyone do that?

>
> It was a scenario of installing a lintel now he would have to take the frame
> out first, or risk having it smashed to pieces by falling masonry whilst
> cutting out for a lintel.


I dont seen any necessity for a lintel. The only time a lintel is
necessary is if
a) the brickwork above has dropped far enough that it needs to be
removed and rebuilt, at such a time it would not be good practice to
omit a lintel
b) the brickwork is in danger of destroying the window, ie when the
bricks have dropped badly and the window is too weak to prevent fall.

And finally, if one does install a lintel under bricks so badly
dropped that they might collapse, it makes sense to take the bricks
out first.


NT


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Old July 18th 10, 03:42 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Dropped bricks above window


"Graham Jones" > wrote in message
...
> Hello,
>
> Continuing my inspection of the brickwork I have noticed that the bricks
> above the kitchen window have dropped slightly and there are zig-zag
> cracks in the mortar going up and in from the corners.
>
> The lintel above the window is a row of bricks placed on end
> (verticalically),
>
> It is these vertical bricks that have dropped causing the brickwork above
> to drop.
>
> 9 years ago we had all the windows replaced with uPVC frames. This may be
> the cause as uPVC frames aren't structual. But this would mean the old
> wooden frames were taking some of the weight. Could this be right? Would
> it have been designed this way?
>
> So how do I fix it and also could someone explain how bricks placed on end
> work as a lintel? I don't really see it myself.
>


What sort of windows did the uPVC ones replace? Were they concrete, wooden,
or steel?




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