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Default Discussion - Earthing a ring main 13A socket metal back-box

It seems that the accepted method of earthing the metal back-box when wiring
a ring main socket is to terminate the two T&E cable earth cores (suitably
sleeved Gn/Y) into the 13A socket earth terminal, and then to run a separate
earth wire from the 13A socket earth terminal back to the earth terminal on
the metal back-box.

I don't know if it is mandatory to specifically wire the earths in this way,
or not. I have been unable to find anything conclusive on the Internet, or
in the IEE 17th Edition Wiring Regulations.

In the past I have used this alternative procedu

Sleeve the first section of the two T&E cable earth cores (Gn/Y) and take
them directly to the earth terminal on the metal back-box. Do NOT cut the
earth cores - instead fold them back on themselves, so they enter the
back-box earth terminal doubled-over. Now sleeve the trailing ends of the
two T&E cable earth cores (Gn/Y) and connect them into the 13A socket earth
terminal. The T&E cable earth cores remain continuous and uncut from where
they exit the stripped T&E cable, all the way to the 13A socket earth
terminal, but they pick up the back-box earth terminal on the way.

My thoughts on this method a

1. The metal back-box would always be earthed, even if someone
disconnected and removed the 13A socket.

2. If the earth wires became loose and fell out of the 13A socket earth
terminal, the continuity of the earth would remain whilst the 13A socket was
screwed into place on the metal back-box.

3. If the earth wires became loose and fell out of the metal back-box
earth terminal, the13A socket would still be earthed, as the earth cores are
continuous (uncut).

4. This wiring method does make the earth core wiring tidy and more
compact. It also avoids the problem of terminating three earth cores into
one earth terminal on the 13A socket (although I accept that many 13A
sockets now have two earth terminals). IMO, three cores into one terminal
is a recipe for a loose core.

The only downside I can see would be if the earth terminal on the metal
back-box was a bit crude and behaved more like a guillotine, cutting through
the earth cores.

Is there any reason not to wire the earth in this manner?

Any thoughts, comments, criticisms anyone?

--
Spike



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"Spike" wrote in message
...
It seems that the accepted method of earthing the metal back-box when
wiring
a ring main socket is to terminate the two T&E cable earth cores (suitably
sleeved Gn/Y) into the 13A socket earth terminal, and then to run a
separate
earth wire from the 13A socket earth terminal back to the earth terminal
on
the metal back-box.

I don't know if it is mandatory to specifically wire the earths in this
way,
or not. I have been unable to find anything conclusive on the Internet,
or
in the IEE 17th Edition Wiring Regulations.

In the past I have used this alternative procedu

Sleeve the first section of the two T&E cable earth cores (Gn/Y) and take
them directly to the earth terminal on the metal back-box. Do NOT cut the
earth cores - instead fold them back on themselves, so they enter the
back-box earth terminal doubled-over. Now sleeve the trailing ends of the
two T&E cable earth cores (Gn/Y) and connect them into the 13A socket
earth
terminal. The T&E cable earth cores remain continuous and uncut from
where
they exit the stripped T&E cable, all the way to the 13A socket earth
terminal, but they pick up the back-box earth terminal on the way.

My thoughts on this method a

1. The metal back-box would always be earthed, even if someone
disconnected and removed the 13A socket.

2. If the earth wires became loose and fell out of the 13A socket earth
terminal, the continuity of the earth would remain whilst the 13A socket
was
screwed into place on the metal back-box.

3. If the earth wires became loose and fell out of the metal back-box
earth terminal, the13A socket would still be earthed, as the earth cores
are
continuous (uncut).

4. This wiring method does make the earth core wiring tidy and more
compact. It also avoids the problem of terminating three earth cores into
one earth terminal on the 13A socket (although I accept that many 13A
sockets now have two earth terminals). IMO, three cores into one terminal
is a recipe for a loose core.

The only downside I can see would be if the earth terminal on the metal
back-box was a bit crude and behaved more like a guillotine, cutting
through
the earth cores.

Is there any reason not to wire the earth in this manner?

Any thoughts, comments, criticisms anyone?

--
Spike


Hi

The earthing of back boxes is not mandatory if there is at least one fixed
lug.

However, if you are going to do it, then either of your methods are fine.
When I have to to earth the back box I use method 1 as it is a) faster and
b) easier to split the earth if required for testing/ fault finding etc.

I have also frequently encountered a 3rd method. Which is to use just one of
the cpcs folded over in the manner you suggested.

Cheers

Adam


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On 15 July, 15:40, "Spike" wrote:
It seems that the accepted method of earthing the metal back-box when wiring
a ring main socket is to terminate the two T&E cable earth cores (suitably
sleeved Gn/Y) into the 13A socket earth terminal, and then to run a separate
earth wire from the 13A socket earth terminal back to the earth terminal on
the metal back-box.

I don't know if it is mandatory to specifically wire the earths in this way,
or not. *I have been unable to find anything conclusive on the Internet, or
in the IEE 17th Edition Wiring Regulations.

In the past I have used this alternative procedu

Sleeve the first section of the two T&E cable earth cores (Gn/Y) and take
them directly to the earth terminal on the metal back-box. *Do NOT cut the
earth cores - instead fold them back on themselves, so they enter the
back-box earth terminal doubled-over. *Now sleeve the trailing ends of the
two T&E cable earth cores (Gn/Y) and connect them into the 13A socket earth
terminal. *The T&E cable earth cores remain continuous and uncut from where
they exit the stripped T&E cable, all the way to the 13A socket earth
terminal, but they pick up the back-box earth terminal on the way.

My thoughts on this method a

* 1. * The metal back-box would always be earthed, even if someone
disconnected and removed the 13A socket.

* 2. * If the earth wires became loose and fell out of the 13A socket earth
terminal, the continuity of the earth would remain whilst the 13A socket was
screwed into place on the metal back-box.

* 3. * If the earth wires became loose and fell out of the metal back-box
earth terminal, the13A socket would still be earthed, as the earth cores are
continuous (uncut).

* 4. * This wiring *method does make the earth core wiring tidy and more
compact. *It also avoids the problem of terminating three earth cores into
one earth terminal on the 13A socket (although I accept that many 13A
sockets now have two earth terminals). *IMO, three cores into one terminal
is a recipe for a loose core.

The only downside I can see would be if the earth terminal on the metal
back-box was a bit crude and behaved more like a guillotine, cutting through
the earth cores.

Is there any reason not to wire the earth in this manner?

Any thoughts, comments, criticisms anyone?

--
Spike


I also use method 1, simply because the backbox terminal is rather
crude.
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Default Discussion - Earthing a ring main 13A socket metal back-box

dom wrote:

I also use method 1, simply because the backbox terminal
is rather crude.


The back-boxes I usually buy have a nice, brass tunnel terminal.

So there's no code of practice that specifies exactly how the back-box earth
should be connected?

--
Spike


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Default Discussion - Earthing a ring main 13A socket metal back-box



"Spike" wrote in message
...

So there's no code of practice that specifies exactly how the back-box
earth should be connected?
Spike

Correct, because as was stated in the first reply there is normally no
requirement to earth the back box.

Regards
Bruce



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Default Discussion - Earthing a ring main 13A socket metal back-box

BruceB wrote:


"Spike" wrote in message
...

So there's no code of practice that specifies exactly how the back-box
earth should be connected?
Spike

Correct, because as was stated in the first reply there is normally no
requirement to earth the back box.

Regards
Bruce



which is how you get a nice shock off the screws used to connect the
front plate to the back box.

Are you serious?
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Default Discussion - Earthing a ring main 13A socket metal back-box

The Natural Philosopher
wibbled on Thursday 15 July 2010 18:18

BruceB wrote:


"Spike" wrote in message
...

So there's no code of practice that specifies exactly how the back-box
earth should be connected?
Spike

Correct, because as was stated in the first reply there is normally no
requirement to earth the back box.

Regards
Bruce



which is how you get a nice shock off the screws used to connect the
front plate to the back box.

Are you serious?


With the caveat of there being at least one fixed lug, he's right.
Accessories usually have earthed metal rings in the screwholes.

Personally I do run a fly to the backbox even though it isn't strictly
necessary in my case, because it takes about 30 seconds extra effort.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

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"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher
wibbled on Thursday 15 July 2010 18:18


Personally I do run a fly to the backbox even though it isn't strictly
necessary in my case, because it takes about 30 seconds extra effort.

--

I would not criticise anyone who does normally run an extra wire to the back
box, many were trained that way. I normally do not run one because I take
the view an extra wire is just one more thing to go wrong, come loose and
cause trouble.
Regards
Bruce

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"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
BruceB wrote:


"Spike" wrote in message
...

So there's no code of practice that specifies exactly how the back-box
earth should be connected?
Spike

Correct, because as was stated in the first reply there is normally no
requirement to earth the back box.

Regards
Bruce



which is how you get a nice shock off the screws used to connect the front
plate to the back box.

Are you serious?


http://www.gtectraining.co.uk/images/back%20boxes.pdf

is the best link I can find.

Cheers

Adam


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Default Discussion - Earthing a ring main 13A socket metal back-box

On 15 July, 22:46, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in ...



BruceB wrote:


"Spike" wrote in message
...


So there's no code of practice that specifies exactly how the back-box
earth should be connected?
Spike


Correct, because as was stated in the first reply there is normally no
requirement to earth the back box.


Regards
Bruce


which is how you get a nice shock off the screws used to connect the front
plate to the back box.


Are you serious?


http://www.gtectraining.co.uk/images/back%20boxes.pdf

is the best link I can find.

Cheers

Adam


Thanks, very useful.


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Default Discussion - Earthing a ring main 13A socket metal back-box

Bruce wrote:

I wrote:

So there's no code of practice that specifies exactly how
the back-box earth should be connected?


Correct, because as was stated in the first reply there is
normally no requirement to earth the back box.


Terminologically incorrect!

Back-boxes (flush or surface) are classified as 'exposed conductive parts'
and are therefore required to be earthed. IMO, earthing of the back-box is
mandatory.

You (and Adam in the first reply) obviously meant that there is often no
requirement to fit an earthing tail to achieve the earthing of the back-box,
not that the back-box itself does not need earthing. Where the cpc is a
cable or core connected into the socket outlet earth terminal, you can
(allegedly) 'rely' on the back-box fixed lug and the socket outlet earthing
strap and eyelet.

Personally, I would always fit an earthing tail, rather than rely on a
dubious combination of fixed lugs and eyelets.

--
Spike


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Adam wrote:

http://www.gtectraining.co.uk/images/back%20boxes.pdf

is the best link I can find.


Interesting document, thanks Adam - but all this convolution as to whether
the back-box has no fixed lugs, or one fixed lug, or two fixed lugs; and
whether the socket outlet has no earthing strap, or an earthing strap and
one eyelet, or an earthing strap and two eyelets; and whether the back-box
has been mounted the right way up, so that the fixed lug corresponds to the
eyelet on a single-eyelet socket outlet, or whether the customer will accept
their 13A socket mounted upside-down so that it does. Good grief, what sort
of committee wrote this ridiculous, labyrinthine precept?

What if someone (e.g. the householder) replaces a double-eyelet socket
outlet at some future time with a single eyelet socket outlet and ends up
with the eyelet screwed to the adjustable lug? What if the socket outlet
mounting screw(s) become loose?

As back-boxes (flush or surface) are classified as 'exposed conductive
parts' and are therefore required to be earthed, surely the short answer is
to ALWAYS install an earthing tail between the socket earth terminal and the
back-box?

I think I shall continue to pick-up the back-box earth terminal with the
(uncut) earth core in the T&E ring main cable, as I described in my op.

--
Spike


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"Spike" wrote in message
...
Adam wrote:



What if someone (e.g. the householder) replaces a double-eyelet socket
outlet at some future time with a single eyelet socket outlet and ends up
with the eyelet screwed to the adjustable lug?


Not sure I have seen any sockets with just one eyelet so that should not be
a problem.

What if the socket outlet
mounting screw(s) become loose?


Then they should be tightened up. It is easy enough to notice and rectify.
Also I have never known of anyone getting shocks from these screws with or
without a flylead.


As back-boxes (flush or surface) are classified as 'exposed conductive
parts' and are therefore required to be earthed, surely the short answer
is to ALWAYS install an earthing tail between the socket earth terminal
and the back-box?


Not according to the NICEIC.

I think I shall continue to pick-up the back-box earth terminal with the
(uncut) earth core in the T&E ring main cable, as I described in my op.


And there is nothing wrong with you doing that. I gave my reasons why I
prefered the method of going from the socket to the back box in preference
to your method.

Your method is safe and that is all that matters.

Cheers

Adam


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"Spike" wrote in message
...
Bruce wrote:

I wrote:

So there's no code of practice that specifies exactly how
the back-box earth should be connected?


Correct, because as was stated in the first reply there is
normally no requirement to earth the back box.


Terminologically incorrect!

Back-boxes (flush or surface) are classified as 'exposed conductive parts'
and are therefore required to be earthed. IMO, earthing of the back-box
is mandatory.

You (and Adam in the first reply) obviously meant that there is often no
requirement to fit an earthing tail to achieve the earthing of the
back-box, not that the back-box itself does not need earthing. Where the
cpc is a cable or core connected into the socket outlet earth terminal,
you can (allegedly) 'rely' on the back-box fixed lug and the socket outlet
earthing strap and eyelet.

Personally, I would always fit an earthing tail, rather than rely on a
dubious combination of fixed lugs and eyelets.

--
Spike

Yes OK I was incorrect in the pedantic way you describe. That is the risk
of opting for brevity in a reply!

Introducing an earth tail when not required does introduce additional
failure modes.

On another pedantic point, note the pdf link in another message dates from
the 16th edition so the reg references are incorrect

Regards
Bruce

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Adam wrote:

I wrote:

As back-boxes (flush or surface) are classified as 'exposed
conductive parts' and are therefore required to be earthed,
surely the short answer is to ALWAYS install an earthing tail
between the socket earth terminal and the back-box?


Not according to the NICEIC.


Well, the NICEIC doesn't preclude always fitting an earth tail - they just
seem to have seriously overcomplicated an otherwise simple earthing
procedure with too many options. Give people a choice, and some will get it
wrong!

Always fit an earth tail, and the back-box/socket outlet earthing
requirements will always be met. Why make it any more complicated than
that?

Inspection Council, existence, justify?

--
Spike




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Bruce wrote:

Introducing an earth tail when not required does introduce
additional failure modes.


Such as?

By always fitting an earth tail, I think the benefits to the integrity of
the earthing scheme will outweigh any envisaged adverse failure modes.

At worst, fitting an earth tail between the back-box and the socket outlet
earth terminal will provide a parallel earth path in some instances. The
converse could result in no earth path.

Making the earth tail mandatory would certainly remove any uncertainty about
how to interpret the socket outlet/back-box earthing requirements.

--
Spike


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"Spike" wrote in message
...
Adam wrote:

I wrote:

As back-boxes (flush or surface) are classified as 'exposed
conductive parts' and are therefore required to be earthed,
surely the short answer is to ALWAYS install an earthing tail
between the socket earth terminal and the back-box?


Not according to the NICEIC.


Well, the NICEIC doesn't preclude always fitting an earth tail - they just
seem to have seriously overcomplicated an otherwise simple earthing
procedure with too many options. Give people a choice, and some will get
it wrong!


Of course they will. And one of the reasons people post here is to make sure
that they get it right by getting views from people who have been there
before or are qualified in such things.

Always fit an earth tail, and the back-box/socket outlet earthing
requirements will always be met. Why make it any more complicated than
that?


Because it is not needed. Two adustable lugs on back boxes have long gone
and so have single eyelet sockets. The rules cover your arse in older
installations.


Inspection Council, existence, justify?


It means that the person doing work at your house should be competent. It
could be any one of the electrical domestic installer schemes, GasSafe,
Fensa etc depending upon what work you have done at home. Not everyone here
DIYs and not everyone DIYs everything.

Notice the words "should be competent":-)
There are often posts about bad workmanship done by people who are
qualified. Some posts are justified and some are not.

Cheers

Adam


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There is an issue about any earth terminal must be used.

This created hilarious situations with Masterseal plastic boxes having
a brass terminal which were intended for loop-in earth use, rather
than someone adding an earth to earth the terminal.

Some councils still insist on it, can not recall the reg in 17th, but
it prompted MK to specifically state they need not be connected and
later on to remove them for a time. Someone nit-picking. Another nit-
picking is the various IPx4 fan heaters for kitchens/bathrooms/toilets
- they are actually German to IPx3 but get re-written to IPx4. Dimplex
deceitly boast about how their new fan heater is IPx4 when the old one
was labelled IPx4 with an open fan cover on the lid (the new one is
somewhat shielded).
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"Spike" wrote in message
...
Bruce wrote:

Introducing an earth tail when not required does introduce
additional failure modes.


Such as?


Such as one end coming out, touching a neutral or phase terminal and
tripping the rcd or mcb.


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On Jul 16, 5:39*pm, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
Two adustable lugs on back boxes have long
gone and so have single eyelet sockets.


You can find them with MK Grid frame on a conventional backbox.
A grid frame has an adjustable lug which depending on orientation may
combine with the conventional box adjustable lug to result in two
adjustable lugs. The grid frame has its own earth terminal. MK grid
backboxes (flush n surface) have two fixed lugs since the grid frame
provides an adjustable one.


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"js.b1" wrote in message
...
On Jul 16, 5:39 pm, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
Two adustable lugs on back boxes have long
gone and so have single eyelet sockets.


You can find them with MK Grid frame on a conventional backbox.
A grid frame has an adjustable lug which depending on orientation may
combine with the conventional box adjustable lug to result in two
adjustable lugs. The grid frame has its own earth terminal. MK grid
backboxes (flush n surface) have two fixed lugs since the grid frame
provides an adjustable one.

Yes, but the OP was refering to normal sockets.

I would bond a grid switch to the back box:-)

Cheers

Adam


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----- Original Message -----
From: "js.b1"
Newsgroups: uk.d-i-y
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2010 5:48 PM
Subject: Discussion - Earthing a ring main 13A socket metal back-box


There is an issue about any earth terminal must be used.

This created hilarious situations with Masterseal plastic boxes having
a brass terminal which were intended for loop-in earth use, rather
than someone adding an earth to earth the terminal.

Some councils still insist on it, can not recall the reg in 17th, but
it prompted MK to specifically state they need not be connected and
later on to remove them for a time. Someone nit-picking. Another nit-
picking is the various IPx4 fan heaters for kitchens/bathrooms/toilets
- they are actually German to IPx3 but get re-written to IPx4. Dimplex
deceitly boast about how their new fan heater is IPx4 when the old one
was labelled IPx4 with an open fan cover on the lid (the new one is
somewhat shielded).


I once had a customer complaining about getting electric shocks from the
washing machine.

I do believe that because the kitchen fitter has terminated the cpcs at the
brass terminal of the plastic pattress and not at the socket's earth
terminals probably had something to do with that:-)

To be fair, the terminal did have an earth symbol embossed in the
plastic!!!!!

Cheers

Adam



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On Jul 16, 7:05*pm, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
To be fair, the terminal did have an earth symbol embossed in the
plastic!!!!!


Ours removed FT because of no CPC, then fitted FTE - but without
connecting the CPC to backboxes or class-1 light which was directly
over and inches from the only place to put a kettle. The insulated
cores were stripped somewhere near ceiling level.

The light switch did not get the CPC connected before tiling. We know
that because the tiles were cut to go over the backbox stopping short
of hitting the mechanism at the back of the light switch and obscure
the terminal. Makes you laugh, cry, laugh!

Indeed, does flickr work...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/51108025@N03/4799943135/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/51108025@N03/4799943039/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/51108025@N03/4800576820/

That is what happens when kettle steam under a cupboard hits a cold
area. No the pipe did not leak. Sockets do not seal well against
tiles, you can see the "tile overlapping into socket cut around a
particular socket". The wall is solid, subject to penetrating rain,
low wet verge, zone box required due to sloping roof, backboxes now
Clipsal BS4662 55mm deep plastic. Did think about flush mounting
Clipsal IP66 with the clear lid, easy undo, but they lack a switch.
Would look ok tho and great re splashproof self closure. The
waterproof box was considered for a leaking washer hose which was
pointed directly at the fitting. I may Clipsal IP66 that so when a
plumber works the plug is out, the fitting is at least sealed.
Plumbers get messy when they see solid floors.
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