On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 12:04:30 +0000
Tim Watts wrote:

TheOldFellow
wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 10:38

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 09:52:59 +0000
David Hansen wrote:




It is best to connect it via one of these
http://www.screwfix.com/prods/52616/Electrical-
Supplies/Industrial/240V/200-250V-MK-Commando-Interlocked-Angled-Socket-2P-
E-IP44



I hope (and pray) you
meant:http://www.screwfix.com/prods/45929/Electrical-
Supplies/Industrial/240V/Industrial-Socket-32A-240V

:-)

Except your's is a 32A and not interlocked


Yes, as you say. I learned something today too.
I have to fit one for my planer (16A)
R.

In article
,
JP Coetzee wrote:
An Interlocked Socket is simply this:
- 16A Round Socket
- Lever or Rotary Switch

Ah OK. The reason I ask is that some sockets I've seen called
"Interlocked" don't seem to have an integral switch.

On Feb 3, 2:33 pm, "js.b1" wrote:
The compact socket looks like the following (joint the link back up in
notepad):

http://cgi.ebay.it/GEWISS-COMBIBLOC-...-16A-230V-GW66...

That's very neat. Is the switch the black bar across the top of the
socket?

Will you actually have to unplug the kiln that often? And since you said
it has integral switching no need to worry about arcing. So why bother
with a switched type? The CU is presumably nearby if you did need to
isolate things quickly for any reason.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 03/02/2010 11:57, Andy Dingley wrote:

Secondly (maybe first) it's important to split the RCD protection.

Thirdly diversity is hard in a workshop - the planer auto-starts the
dust extractor, the plasma cutter uses the compressor too. That's
multi-kW loads kicking in in pairs. Some of the assumptions underlying
the design of the domestic ring just aren't applicable here.

Have to agree with you on this one Andy.

IME, most workshops are wired so that each "machine position" has it's
own radial circuit. There is usually only a 13A ring main for a bunch of
13A socket outlets for light-bench top use and then, if there are
multiple benches, each one often has its own radial circuit with a local
RCD.

Notwithstanding whether it's allowed on the 17th, I would be inclined to
install a 20A radial circuit (i.e min 2.5mm2 cable) with a 16A MCB
dedicated for this equipment.

OK, I've checked the 17th OSG and Appendix 8 Sec 8.3 allows for a radial
final circuit using a 16A socket-outlet complying with BS EN 60309-2 (BS
4343).

The use of an interlocked socket outlet is *not* prescribed.
The use of a switched socket outlet is *not* prescribed.

However, according to Appendix 10 of the OSG, whilst an IEC 309
connector is good for isolation and functional switching (by virtue of
pulling the plug), it is not good for emergency switching, so really,
there should be an isolating switch adjacent to or incorporated with the
socket outlet.

Having allowed for diversity (none in this case) a 20A radial circuit is
acceptable, in which case, the number of sockets is unlimited.

Minimum conductor size is 2.5/1.5 mm2 (Table 8A). Table 7.1 and Appendix
6 apply for grouping/derating.

On 03/02/2010 10:20, Tim Watts wrote:
James Salisburynntp.dsl.pipex.com @invalid
wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 09:41

Hi,
The unit you have found is for plugging a caravan in. Something like
this is needed
http://uk.farnell.com/pro-power/sq16...t-interlocked-
switch-240v/dp/1017260
and fit a 16A breaker and rcd as required.


I should have added that. IEE Regs (17th) preclude fitting unshuttered
sockets in a domestic premises (although I wouldn't worry too much for a
workshop *if* the socket were nice and high) - just in case you have
(visiting) kids...

Not so, according to OSG Appendix 8. BS4343 socket outlets are allowed
and interlocking/shuttering is not prescribed.

On Feb 3, 2:44*pm, JP Coetzee wrote:
On Feb 3, 2:33 pm, "js.b1" wrote:
The compact socket looks like the following (joint the link back up in notepad):
http://cgi.ebay.it/GEWISS-COMBIBLOC-...-16A-230V-GW66...

That's very neat. Is the switch the black bar across the top of the
socket?

Yes, you pull it forward or push it back.
- It will not turn ON unless a plug is in (paperclip safe)
- It will not allow a plug to be removed unless turned OFF (flash
safe)

If you search on that GW66xxxx part number you should get a website
showing the dimensions - it is not huge, not small. It is smaller than
the MK Commando version which is an extremely large "wedge shaped
block of grey cheese".

The dedicated 16A circuit breaker is required because the 16A plug has
no fuse :-)
Contrast with your 32A ring final circuit which has 13A fused plugs,
obviously you can not connect anything 16A to a 13A fuse (plug, spur)
because it will blow the fuse within a few minutes as well as cause
overheating.

On 03/02/2010 14:21, JP Coetzee wrote:
What does "interlocked" mean?

It was explained in another post. To withdraw the plug the supply
must be switched off. This prevents someone unplugging it on load.
Arcs from 16A equipment are not too bad, but this sort of socket
goes up to 125A, which would be much more impressive if not somewhat
frightening.

So if I just fit an RCD and an interlocked socket, I would have to
turn the supply off at the RCD to withdraw the plug? It's not enough
to turn off the switch on the kiln?

No, an interlocked socket has a socket with an adjacent switch which are
mechanically interlinked.

That is to say:

1. If there is no plug in the socket, the switch can not be turned to
the on position.
2. If the switch is on, then the plug can not be removed from the socket.

This is good because, with this arrangement:

1. You can not connect or disconnect the plug under load.
2. The socket outlet can not be live if there is no plug inserted. This
gives the same effect as shuttered 13A socket outlets (i.e. protects
from prying fingers).

On 03/02/2010 15:01, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
JP wrote:
An Interlocked Socket is simply this:
- 16A Round Socket
- Lever or Rotary Switch

Ah OK. The reason I ask is that some sockets I've seen called
"Interlocked" don't seem to have an integral switch.

On Feb 3, 2:33 pm, wrote:
The compact socket looks like the following (joint the link back up in
notepad):

http://cgi.ebay.it/GEWISS-COMBIBLOC-...-16A-230V-GW66...

That's very neat. Is the switch the black bar across the top of the
socket?

Will you actually have to unplug the kiln that often? And since you said
it has integral switching no need to worry about arcing. So why bother
with a switched type? The CU is presumably nearby if you did need to
isolate things quickly for any reason.


Such a solution would not (IMO) comply with regulation 537.4.2.5 which
effectively requires emergency switching at the socket outlet as table
53.2 does not allow the use of an IEC309 connector for emergency switching.

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 05:56:54 -0800 (PST), Scrump
wrote:

What does "interlocked" mean?

It was explained in another post. To withdraw the plug the supply
must be switched off. This prevents someone unplugging it on load.
Arcs from 16A equipment are not too bad, but this sort of socket
goes up to 125A, which would be much more impressive if not somewhat
frightening.


So if I just fit an RCD and an interlocked socket, I would have to
turn the supply off at the RCD to withdraw the plug? It's not enough
to turn off the switch on the kiln?

No - it's a switched socket. Switching it on mechanically (at least on
the ones I've seen) locks the plug to prevent it being withdrawn. The
same mechanism prevents you from switching on unless there's a plug
in.

--
Frank Erskine

Will you actually have to unplug the kiln that often? And since you said
it has integral switching no need to worry about arcing. So why bother
with a switched type? The CU is presumably nearby if you did need to
isolate things quickly for any reason.


The missus likes to turn the kiln off at the wall. That's pretty wise
in a wooden shed.

*waits for questions about fire security*

That switched outlet is pretty compact, and angled downward so the
cable will be out of the way. I like it.

Scrump
wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 13:35

But I'll add, as the OP is starting out to install new kit, I would
strongly recommend interlocked commando sockets - this is about as bomb
proof as it gets...

I will put in a new RCD + spur + single socket. What does
"interlocked" mean?

I mentioned a few posts back:

If the plug is out, you cannot move the switch to "On";

If the plug is in, you can now switch On;

Once "On", you cannot withdraw the plug (which is good also as it prevents
any possibility of the plug being half out and making bad contact and
getting hot.


Downside, is you can't yank the plug out by the flex in an emergency (but
you generally cannot with commandos as on the other non-interlocked
versions, the lid retains the plug). So the machine, if dangerous, should
have suitable emergency stop button(s) or isolators, but I guess they mostly
do...

Beware - these can be stupidly expensive until you google around, then you
can get them for sensible money.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Scrump
wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 13:56

What does "interlocked" mean?

It was explained in another post. To withdraw the plug the supply
must be switched off. This prevents someone unplugging it on load.
Arcs from 16A equipment are not too bad, but this sort of socket
goes up to 125A, which would be much more impressive if not somewhat
frightening.


So if I just fit an RCD and an interlocked socket, I would have to
turn the supply off at the RCD to withdraw the plug? It's not enough
to turn off the switch on the kiln?

No, you turn the switch off at the socket (it's integrated).

See he

http://www.gwsupplies.co.uk/p/5467/i...p44+iec309.htm

In fact, that is one of the more sensible prices you will see...

Another thing that is useful, is you can often put a padlock through the
isolator to prevent anyone else turning it on when you don't want them to.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

JP Coetzee
wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 12:33

* It's shed wiring. Pulling 3kW through existing rings(?) in sheds
that were wired who-knows-when out of who-knows-what has often been a
problem.

House CU with dedicated 40A RCD to shed -- buried 15 metre 40A
armoured cable spur -- CU in the shed with 30A RCD socket ring and
10A RCD lighting ring. Put in on 31st December 2004.

I'll put in a new breaker. What is an "interlocking" socket?

I can't find a suitable downward-pointing, switched socket anywhere.
Can anyone help?

Thanks for all your help

They exist:

http://www.neweysonline.co.uk/newlec...-socket-screw-
terminal-16a-230v-2p-+-e-
ip44/1050152387/ProductInformation.raction?campaign=Googlebase

But that's silly money... Look around, the same part should be available
from somewhere for rather less...

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

Dave Osborne
wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 15:08

On 03/02/2010 10:20, Tim Watts wrote:
James Salisburynntp.dsl.pipex.com @invalid
wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 09:41

Hi,
The unit you have found is for plugging a caravan in. Something like
this is needed
http://uk.farnell.com/pro-power/sq16...t-interlocked-
switch-240v/dp/1017260
and fit a 16A breaker and rcd as required.


I should have added that. IEE Regs (17th) preclude fitting unshuttered
sockets in a domestic premises (although I wouldn't worry too much for a
workshop *if* the socket were nice and high) - just in case you have
(visiting) kids...

Not so, according to OSG Appendix 8. BS4343 socket outlets are allowed
and interlocking/shuttering is not prescribed.

Reg 553.1.4: "Every socket outlet for household and similar use shall be of
the shuttered type, and for an AC installation, shall preferably be of a
type complying with BS1363."

As I said, I wouldn't get too hung up for a workshop, but the intention is
clear - stop kiddies sticking things in...

Interlocking is the best way IMHO to achieve the spirit, but ensuring either
unreachable sockets or a locked workshop would be other ways.

It's worth bearing in mind what happens if you sell the house - the next
person may not be so clueful.

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

On 03/02/2010 15:50, Tim Watts wrote:
Dave
wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 15:08

On 03/02/2010 10:20, Tim Watts wrote:
James Salisburynntp.dsl.pipex.com @invalid
wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 09:41

Hi,
The unit you have found is for plugging a caravan in. Something like
this is needed
http://uk.farnell.com/pro-power/sq16...t-interlocked-
switch-240v/dp/1017260
and fit a 16A breaker and rcd as required.


I should have added that. IEE Regs (17th) preclude fitting unshuttered
sockets in a domestic premises (although I wouldn't worry too much for a
workshop *if* the socket were nice and high) - just in case you have
(visiting) kids...

Not so, according to OSG Appendix 8. BS4343 socket outlets are allowed
and interlocking/shuttering is not prescribed.

Reg 553.1.4: "Every socket outlet for household and similar use shall be of
the shuttered type, and for an AC installation, shall preferably be of a
type complying with BS1363."


OK.

As I said, I wouldn't get too hung up for a workshop, but the intention is
clear - stop kiddies sticking things in...

Agreed.

Interlocking is the best way IMHO to achieve the spirit, but ensuring either
unreachable sockets or a locked workshop would be other ways.

Agreed.

However, unfortunately, "unreachable sockets" are generally proscribed
and in this case would likely break one or more provisions of Reg 537
(Isolation and Switching) e.g. 537.4.2.5 "The means of operation shall
be readily accessible...".

Also, not so much a locked workshop, but a padlocked isolating switch
would be in order again as per various provisions of Reg 537.

===

OK, the Regs and the OSG are at odds then.

In the Regs it hinges on the interpretation of "household and similar use".

Reg. 553.1.3 allows for IEC309 connectors for low voltage circuits, but

Reg. 553.1.4 then effectively precludes them for "household and similar
use" because they are not shuttered.

However, the OSG recognises IEC309 connectors on a 16A radial circuit as
a standard circuit arrangement for household and similar use, but does
not prescribe interlocking in lieu of shuttering.

Section 20 of the Regs does not define shuttering and the word is not
indexed either, so unless someone can point to a regulation (or BS)
where shuttering is further defined, we would have to fall back on
regulation 120.3 and make the argument that interlocking is just as safe
as shuttering and may be implemented in lieu with impunity.

Cheers,
DaveyOZ

JP Coetzee wrote :
We have a new kiln rated at 3.6kW. It requires a single-phase supply.
3600/230=15.7A. It has 16A 2P+E plug on it like this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:16A-plug.jpg

In the shed I have a 30A ring with standard 13A dual-gang switched
sockets. Can I use one of these:
http://www.toolstation.com/images/li...bbig/47166.jpg ?

If not, what are those connectors for? And what is the best way to
power the kiln?

There is a consumer unit in the shed with space for another breaker.

Many thanks.

You need to add another breaker rated 16amp and wire from that to a
dedicated 16amp socket and fit a 16amp plug (like that of your URL, but
a plug rather than the socket shown) to the kiln. The 16amp with an
attached 13amp (in the URL) is to enable a caravan to be plugged in to
the mains at home.

--
Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk

In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
In article ,
David Hansen wrote:
Fixed loads of up to 16A, protected by a suitable fuse or circuit
breaker, can be connected to ring mains. A socket is simply a means
of providing a connection point which does not need someone with
electrical skills to connect/disconnect the equipment.

Are you absolutely certain about this?

Yes.

I've never seen a device intended for this sort of use. FCUs are
limited to 13 amps. Indeed it's now frowned upon to connect any
sustained fixed load - like say an immersion - to a ring circuit, even
within the 13 amp limit.

Not saying it's a good idea, but it's allowed, with a fuse
or breaker up to 16A.

Connecting the primary electric heating system (space or water)
to a ring is not allowed though. Supplementary heating and
small water heaters are allowed.

Then I'd say a kiln would come under this in practice if not in name -
since it's likely to be on for long periods.

I've no idea what the warm-up period and duty cycle are,
but you could well be right. This is not the case for a
domestic oven though, as warm-up is usually quite quick,
and then the duty cycle is low.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Dave Osborne writes:

Have to agree with you on this one Andy.

IME, most workshops are wired so that each "machine position" has it's
own radial circuit. There is usually only a 13A ring main for a bunch of
13A socket outlets for light-bench top use and then, if there are
multiple benches, each one often has its own radial circuit with a local
RCD.

Notwithstanding whether it's allowed on the 17th, I would be inclined to
install a 20A radial circuit (i.e min 2.5mm2 cable) with a 16A MCB
dedicated for this equipment.

OK, I've checked the 17th OSG and Appendix 8 Sec 8.3 allows for a radial
final circuit using a 16A socket-outlet complying with BS EN 60309-2 (BS
4343).

The use of an interlocked socket outlet is *not* prescribed.
The use of a switched socket outlet is *not* prescribed.

However, according to Appendix 10 of the OSG, whilst an IEC 309
connector is good for isolation and functional switching (by virtue of
pulling the plug), it is not good for emergency switching, so really,
there should be an isolating switch adjacent to or incorporated with the
socket outlet.

There is no requirement for emergency switching though.
If you're leaning on the kiln and getting burned, disconnecting
the supply quickly isn't going to make any difference.
That's not to say that having a switch isn't sensible, but it
would be for functional switching, not emergency switching.

Having allowed for diversity (none in this case) a 20A radial circuit is
acceptable, in which case, the number of sockets is unlimited.

Minimum conductor size is 2.5/1.5 mm2 (Table 8A). Table 7.1 and Appendix
6 apply for grouping/derating.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:47:12 +0000 someone who may be Dave Osborne
wrote this:-

Section 20 of the Regs does not define shuttering and the word is not
indexed either, so unless someone can point to a regulation (or BS)
where shuttering is further defined, we would have to fall back on
regulation 120.3 and make the argument that interlocking is just as safe
as shuttering and may be implemented in lieu with impunity.

I would just list the sockets as an exception, something provided
for in the forms and regulations, and argue the case in court if it
came to that.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 17:48:41 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

I've no idea what the warm-up period and duty cycle are,
but you could well be right. This is not the case for a
domestic oven though, as warm-up is usually quite quick,
and then the duty cycle is low.

I imagine that a kiln is a fairly steady load, I would consider it
to be at least as steady as an immersion heater, probably more
steady. However, that doesn't matter if the ring circuit is
otherwise lightly loaded, give it some work to do for once.

Given the spare way in this case it makes sense to wire a socket to
that in most cases. However, in other circumstances, if the ring
only powers a few hand tools, connecting the kiln will not be a
problem.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 17:55:22 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

There is no requirement for emergency switching though.
If you're leaning on the kiln and getting burned, disconnecting
the supply quickly isn't going to make any difference.

A point I was going to make. Emergency switching is essentially a
means for unskilled persons to turn off some bit of equipment which
can be stopped quickly from causing a danger, a drilling machine or
lathe being an example, largely things with motors which can rip
into human bodies. This might best be provided on the machine
itself, at the starter rather than on some out of the way wiring
point, where what is provided is a means of isolation, so that
skilled persons can work on the wiring to the equipment.

In this case I understand that the kiln has a switch on it, which
can be used as functional switching. If, for some reason, the kiln
or the socket has burst into flames then I certainly wouldn't try to
operate a switch which was beside the kiln at the socket, I value my
health too much, I would be heading towards the consumer unit to
switch everything off.



--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

On 03/02/2010 19:03, David Hansen wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 17:55:22 +0000 (UTC) someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

There is no requirement for emergency switching though.
If you're leaning on the kiln and getting burned, disconnecting
the supply quickly isn't going to make any difference.

A point I was going to make. Emergency switching is essentially a
means for unskilled persons to turn off some bit of equipment which
can be stopped quickly from causing a danger, a drilling machine or
lathe being an example, largely things with motors which can rip
into human bodies. This might best be provided on the machine
itself, at the starter rather than on some out of the way wiring
point, where what is provided is a means of isolation, so that
skilled persons can work on the wiring to the equipment.

Isn't there a point to having it remote as well, so people seeing fred
being chopped up from the other side of the room can do something about
it? Yes, it depends enormously on the circumstances, but I would think
having a stop switch at eg near the door as well as the machine itself
would be appropriate.
(and of course this still doesn't apply to the kiln).

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 17:33:48 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

JP Coetzee wrote :
We have a new kiln rated at 3.6kW. It requires a single-phase supply.
3600/230=15.7A. It has 16A 2P+E plug on it like this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:16A-plug.jpg

In the shed I have a 30A ring with standard 13A dual-gang switched
sockets. Can I use one of these:
http://www.toolstation.com/images/li...bbig/47166.jpg ?

If not, what are those connectors for? And what is the best way to
power the kiln?

There is a consumer unit in the shed with space for another breaker.

Many thanks.

You need to add another breaker rated 16amp and wire from that to a
dedicated 16amp socket and fit a 16amp plug (like that of your URL, but
a plug rather than the socket shown) to the kiln. The 16amp with an
attached 13amp (in the URL) is to enable a caravan to be plugged in to
the mains at home.

Does it need to be connected by plug and socket at all?

I'd be tempted to fit a metal-clad isolator adjacent to the kiln, then
hard-wire the flexible cord from the kiln through a gland on the
isolator.

--
Frank Erskine

David Hansen
wibbled on Wednesday 03 February 2010 18:43

On Wed, 03 Feb 2010 16:47:12 +0000 someone who may be Dave Osborne
wrote this:-

Section 20 of the Regs does not define shuttering and the word is not
indexed either, so unless someone can point to a regulation (or BS)
where shuttering is further defined, we would have to fall back on
regulation 120.3 and make the argument that interlocking is just as safe
as shuttering and may be implemented in lieu with impunity.

I would just list the sockets as an exception, something provided
for in the forms and regulations, and argue the case in court if it
came to that.




If you can show that you took sensible measures to justify an exception,
then I think you'd be on good ground:

It's a domestic premises, so shuttered sockets are normally prescribed.
The exception was made on the grounds that:
a) The socket is interlocked;
or
b) It's too high for kids to reach;
or
c) The workshop is dangerous anyway and is always kept locked.

c) Might be the most risky if either the person forgot to lock the shed or
the house was sold and the next occupier did not use the shed as a workshop,
and therefore did not keep it locked, but left the socket energised due to a
lack of understanding.

However, just arguing "Your honour, I made an exception 'cos I felt like it"
won't go down too well ;-

I would be very happy to do a) (in fact I plan to), then b) (I'll be doing
that too because it's convenient).

--
Tim Watts

Managers, politicians and environmentalists: Nature's carbon buffer.

On 03/02/2010 20:20, Frank Erskine wrote:
Does it need to be connected by plug and socket at all?

I've just read the whole thread looking for a slightly less newsgroupy
response before I suggested ditching the plug and socket!

I'll just add the 'I agree' onto yours.
--
Stuart

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

In article ,
Lurch wrote:
On 03/02/2010 20:20, Frank Erskine wrote:
Does it need to be connected by plug and socket at all?

I've just read the whole thread looking for a slightly less newsgroupy
response before I suggested ditching the plug and socket!

I'll just add the 'I agree' onto yours.

Since the plug is provided, an unswitched socket would have really no
disadvantages over hard wiring - and some advantages. Even if it was
rarely unplugged.

--
*Wrinkled was not one of the things I wanted to be when I grew up

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 04/02/2010 00:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:
On 03/02/2010 20:20, Frank Erskine wrote:
Does it need to be connected by plug and socket at all?

I've just read the whole thread looking for a slightly less newsgroupy
response before I suggested ditching the plug and socket!

I'll just add the 'I agree' onto yours.

Since the plug is provided, an unswitched socket would have really no
disadvantages over hard wiring - and some advantages. Even if it was
rarely unplugged.

Well no, but I would fit a switched one as the future usage cannot be
determined, and there is a strong feeling that a interlocked socket
should be used due to the shutter issue.

Unless it really needs to be truly portable, easiest, cheapest and
definitely compliant method of installing the kiln is to hard wire it
into an isolator on a new circuit run from the shed CU.
--
Stuart

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Feb 4, 1:00*am, Lurch wrote:
On 04/02/2010 00:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In ,
* * *wrote:
On 03/02/2010 20:20, Frank Erskine wrote:
Does it need to be connected by plug and socket at all?

I've just read the whole thread looking for a slightly less newsgroupy
response before I suggested ditching the plug and socket!

I'll just add the 'I agree' onto yours.

Since the plug is provided, an unswitched socket would have really no
disadvantages over hard wiring - and some advantages. *Even if it was
rarely unplugged.

Well no, but I would fit a switched one as the future usage cannot be
determined, and there is a strong feeling that a interlocked socket
should be used due to the shutter issue.

Unless it really needs to be truly portable, easiest, cheapest and
definitely compliant method of installing the kiln is to hard wire it
into an isolator on a new circuit run from the shed CU.


Years ago we used to run 15A continuous loads on standard 13A plugs.
With metal clad sockets (MK IIRC) and plugs without sleeved pins they
were fine, no melting or fuse popping. But when sleeved pin MK plugs
were used they melted. I'm not recommending this of course, just for
curiosity.


NT

On 4 Feb, 12:57, NT wrote:

Years ago we used to run 15A continuous loads on standard 13A plugs.

I've done loads of this over the years, chiefly welders, and had
little trouble (but as you say, use MK kit). Until you try to unplug
it, then you find the contacts are welded in place...

On the whole, I wouldn't recommend it. The worst risk is probably
chronic overheating, then the insulator failing and live contacts
dropping into contact with the earth. If you're not RCDing because
it's a leaky or inductive load, and it's it's fused at mongo current
anyway, then there's far too much risk of a firestarter arc developing
and neither safety provision tripping. That's how Americans burn their
workshops down.

On Feb 4, 1:19*pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 4 Feb, 12:57, NT wrote:

Years ago we used to run 15A continuous loads on standard 13A plugs.

I've done loads of this over the years, chiefly welders, and had
little trouble (but as you say, use MK kit). *Until you try to unplug
it, then you find the contacts are welded in place...

On the whole, I wouldn't recommend it. The worst risk is probably
chronic overheating, then the insulator failing and live contacts
dropping into contact with the earth. If you're not RCDing because
it's a leaky or inductive load, and it's it's fused at mongo current
anyway, then there's far too much risk of a firestarter arc developing
and neither safety provision tripping. That's how Americans burn their
workshops down.

I was tempted to make a humorous suggestion involving a pc fan, but
there's always one that might think it a smart idea.


NT

In article
,
Andy Dingley wrote:
On 4 Feb, 12:57, NT wrote:

Years ago we used to run 15A continuous loads on standard 13A plugs.

I've done loads of this over the years, chiefly welders, and had
little trouble (but as you say, use MK kit). Until you try to unplug
it, then you find the contacts are welded in place...

On the whole, I wouldn't recommend it. The worst risk is probably
chronic overheating, then the insulator failing and live contacts
dropping into contact with the earth. If you're not RCDing because
it's a leaky or inductive load, and it's it's fused at mongo current
anyway, then there's far too much risk of a firestarter arc developing
and neither safety provision tripping. That's how Americans burn their
workshops down.

The alternative might be to use a 15 amp three round pin plug and socket -
if getting the BS4343 stuff is a problem. Present day versions are
shuttered. And according to my theatre pals these sockets will stand a
fair bit of overloading.

--
large*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Feb 4, 3:44*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
The alternative might be to use a 15 amp three round pin plug and socket -
if getting the BS4343 stuff is a problem. Present day versions are
shuttered. And according to my theatre pals these sockets will stand a
fair bit of overloading.

Voltage drop at the shed might actually make it draw 15A anyway.
3.6kW wasn't it... if that is the 240V rating it is 15.0A so ok.

That said, c.£20 delivered for a BS4343 Interlocked Socket isn't bad.
There is no chance of any problem re interlock and proposed EV
connectors using similar.

In article
,
js.b1 wrote:
On Feb 4, 3:44 pm, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
The alternative might be to use a 15 amp three round pin plug and
socket - if getting the BS4343 stuff is a problem. Present day
versions are shuttered. And according to my theatre pals these sockets
will stand a fair bit of overloading.

Voltage drop at the shed might actually make it draw 15A anyway.
3.6kW wasn't it... if that is the 240V rating it is 15.0A so ok.

That said, c.£20 delivered for a BS4343 Interlocked Socket isn't bad.
There is no chance of any problem re interlock and proposed EV
connectors using similar.

Just thought it gets round the problem of the flex exiting horizontally.

--
*Not all men are annoying. Some are dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

MK Commando Switch Disconnector would provide a good fixed solution.
Couple of inches deep on a wall, bottom cable gland exit possible,
lockable in off position, IP54 16A are cheap, easy wire(*).


(*) By "easy wire" I mean their terminals are round-hole brass like a
13A plug, rather than Rotary Disconnectors which use an inverted V
cable clamp which has mandatory min cable size (otherwise the clamp is
tight but your cable is loose re fire).

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember David Hansen
saying something like:

Fit a 16A socket as a spur above one of your normal sockets - as it's a
ring, it's good. Or run a radial from the CU.

Only if the spur is suitably protected with a 16A circuit breaker.

Oh, ffs, need I spell that out?

On Fri, 05 Feb 2010 04:35:57 +0000 someone who may be Grimly
Curmudgeon wrote this:-

Fit a 16A socket as a spur above one of your normal sockets - as it's a
ring, it's good. Or run a radial from the CU.

Only if the spur is suitably protected with a 16A circuit breaker.

Oh, ffs, need I spell that out?

I think so, which is why I went to the trouble of typing it out.

I have seen a number spurs which were not properly protected. Almost
certainly installed by people who thought they knew what they were
doing.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...#pt3-pb3-l1g54

I have a reverse query

Sir what will happen if a European oven with 13A main fuse rating is used in India where Standard power plugs are rated 16A after changing European plug to the Indian plug

Not a lot.
I'm assuming the voltages and cps are the same. If its fused at 13 amp then
why not. I'm assuming that you can fit normal fuses to their 16 amp plugs of
course If its not fused then that really depends on the safety rules over
there. Just don't call out the repair man as they might be a bit expensive!
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
wrote in message
...
I have a reverse query

Sir what will happen if a European oven with 13A main fuse rating is used
in India where Standard power plugs are rated 16A after changing European
plug to the Indian plug

Sir what will happen if a European oven with 13A main fuse rating is used in India where Standard power plugs are rated 16A after changing European plug to the Indian plug

As \ISay if the right fuse is used cannot see a problem.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
wrote in message
...
I have a reverse query

Sir what will happen if a European oven with 13A main fuse rating is used
in India where Standard power plugs are rated 16A after changing European
plug to the Indian plug

On Fri, 22 Sep 2017 16:22:16 +0100, pamela wrote:

On 16:07 22 Sep 2017, Brian Gaff wrote:

Not a lot. I'm assuming the voltages and cps are the same. If
its fused at 13 amp then why not. I'm assuming that you can fit
normal fuses to their 16 amp plugs of course If its not fused
then that really depends on the safety rules over there. Just
don't call out the repair man as they might be a bit expensive!
Brian

This somehow reminds me of Prince Philip looking at a fuseboard on
a factory tour and saying: "It looks as if it was put in by an
Indian electrician".

Unlike HRH I don't suppose you are accustomed to being addressed as
"Sir".
--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%