making new copper look aged green
How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable,
Verdigris. I have used acids Hydrochloric, Hydroflouric, and find the Verdigris is a top layer and sometimes bluer or darker green than naturaly aged copper. I have found Toilet bowl cleaner that has Hydrochloric acid is great on old black copper gutters that wont fully turn green, as its already buffered and gelled so it stays wet and doesnt drip on you as you brush it on, and safer to use. I have fumed copper in a heated tub but the results are darker and more green than natural aging and the finish flakes off. I have heard to sand and or heat the copper with a propane torch and that even Pee is great, this I willl try next. There is a process to make copper green and stable but I dont know it. Revere copper does it. Im on the other side of the pond so excuse my terminology, this week will be back to 0f degree, a bit cold. |
making new copper look aged green
On 26 Jan, 01:04, ransley wrote:
* How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable, You find a copy of "The Colouring, Bronzing, and Patination of Metals" and then spend ages studying it. Copper goes either brown(ish) or green(ish) with most reagents (so buy some nitrate-based stuff). Much depends on the copper alloy, the reagent (obviously) and the process (time / temperature / agitation) you use to apply it. Getting nice colours is one thing, getting consistent results, stable results or predictable results is quite another. Japanese work uses the same reagent repeatedly and varies the alloy instead. This is allegedly an easier route to reliable consistency (although some of their alloys are arsenical and quite toxic). Avoid chlorides. That's not patina, it's corrosion - and it's very far from stable or robust. For simple results, buy a commercial bottle of Green Goop or Brown Goop. You'll get better results than anything short of serious investment in materials and techniques. |
making new copper look aged green
On Jan 25, 7:39*pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 26 Jan, 01:04, ransley wrote: * How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable, You find a copy of "The Colouring, Bronzing, and Patination of Metals" and then spend ages studying it. Copper goes either brown(ish) or green(ish) with most reagents (so buy some nitrate-based stuff). Much depends on the copper alloy, the reagent (obviously) and the process (time / temperature / agitation) you use to apply it. Getting nice colours is one thing, getting consistent results, stable *results or predictable results is quite another. Japanese work uses the same reagent repeatedly and varies the alloy instead. This is allegedly an easier route to reliable consistency (although some of their alloys are arsenical and quite toxic). Avoid chlorides. That's not patina, it's corrosion - and it's very far from stable or robust. For simple results, buy a commercial bottle of Green Goop or Brown Goop. You'll get better results than anything short of serious investment in materials and techniques. Nitrate base, do you mean plant fertilizer. Green Goop, Brown Goop, what is in the products, I never heard of them in the US, I will try google on the goop. |
making new copper look aged green
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:04:01 -0800 (PST), ransley
wrote: How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable, Verdigris. I have used acids Hydrochloric, Hydroflouric, and find the Verdigris is a top layer and sometimes bluer or darker green than naturaly aged copper. You might somthing of interest he http://asuwlink.uwyo.edu/~metal/patinas.html I've also tried fuming the copper in amonnia. -- Nige Danton email: swop the obvious for g_m_a_i_l --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- |
making new copper look aged green
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:30:50 +0700, Nige Danton
wrote: Also maybe search rec.crafts.metalworking for more ideas and tips. -- Nige Danton email: swop the obvious for g_m_a_i_l --- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: --- |
making new copper look aged green
On 26 Jan, 05:30, Nige Danton wrote:
I've also tried fuming the copper in amonnia. Ammonia fuming is great, but it tends to give a mild "antique" patina, rather than a deliberate verdigris. Works very well on brass. Didn't we discuss that recently? The trick is to keep the metal out of the liquid ammonia, otherwise it develops splotches. The usual method is a big Tupperware box, with ammonia in the bottom, then a layer of wood shavings, with the metal above. |
making new copper look aged green
On 26 Jan, 01:47, ransley wrote:
Nitrate base, do you mean plant fertilizer. No, I generally mean ferric nitrate, the base for a great many patination recipes. Also nitric acid. You're unlikely to get far "trying out brews with plant fertiliser". In particular you'll find yourself with a weak mixture that acts very slowly. This is a bad thing. In particular, you might think it looks good but the stuff is so slow acting you don't realise it's still working - a week later it has turned to ugly crud. This is particularly a problem with chlorides. Washing and cleaning afterwards, maybe even deliberate neutralising, can be as important as the patination itself. This looks like a decent online starting point http://www.sciencecompany.com/patina...naformulas.htm Then of course there's Ganoksin for serious metalsmithing. http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nena...a-formulas.htm Green Goop, Brown Goop what is in the products, No idea. Many chemicals used in metal finishing (especially plating) are obscure and difficult to find, then only used in small doses. It's too awkward to buy your own, so you're better buying a ready-mixed patination fluid. This still applies, even if you're an industrial chemist (unless you can sneak through a 40 gallon drum of something that you only need a teaspoon of). Find your local finishing supplies people (Rustin or Liberon in the UK) and check their catalogues. It does work better if you buy the ready-mixed potions, then follow the recipes carefully. |
making new copper look aged green
"ransley" wrote in message ... How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable, Verdigris. I have used acids Hydrochloric, Hydroflouric, and find the Verdigris is a top layer and sometimes bluer or darker green than naturaly aged copper. I have found Toilet bowl cleaner that has Hydrochloric acid is great on old black copper gutters that wont fully turn green, as its already buffered and gelled so it stays wet and doesnt drip on you as you brush it on, and safer to use. I have fumed copper in a heated tub but the results are darker and more green than natural aging and the finish flakes off. I have heard to sand and or heat the copper with a propane torch and that even Pee is great, this I willl try next. There is a process to make copper green and stable but I dont know it. Revere copper does it. Im on the other side of the pond so excuse my terminology, this week will be back to 0f degree, a bit cold. I have experience of this although unintentionally. I once kept a bottle of concentrated hydrochloric acid under the kitchen sink. Over time, the cap of the bottle degraded allowing hydrogen chloride gas to escape from the bottle (the acid is basically this gas dissolved in water). All the copper piping went green (copper chloride). I suggest you get some concentrated hycrochloric acid (available from Robert Dyas - sold as drain cleaner) and leave the copper item in a small chamber with an open container of hydrochloric acid for a few days. Warning: The gas is very harmful to your lungs and other moist membranes so make sure you do this somewhere safe. |
making new copper look aged green
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:04:01 -0800 (PST), ransley wrote:
How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable, Verdigris. I have used acids Hydrochloric, Hydroflouric, and find the Verdigris is a top layer and sometimes bluer or darker green than naturaly aged copper. I have found Toilet bowl cleaner that has Hydrochloric acid is great on old black copper gutters that wont fully turn green, as its already buffered and gelled so it stays wet and doesnt drip on you as you brush it on, and safer to use. I have fumed copper in a heated tub but the results are darker and more green than natural aging and the finish flakes off. I have heard to sand and or heat the copper with a propane torch and that even Pee is great, this I willl try next. There is a process to make copper green and stable but I dont know it. Revere copper does it. Im on the other side of the pond so excuse my terminology, this week will be back to 0f degree, a bit cold. Got any cow-pats nearby? |
making new copper look aged green
The message
from ransley contains these words: How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable, Horse urine was the traditional material used in Eastern Canada where there were and are a lot of copper roofs in the Montréal - Ottawa area. |
making new copper look aged green
On Jan 26, 4:46*am, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 26 Jan, 01:47, ransley wrote: Nitrate base, do you mean plant fertilizer. No, I generally mean ferric nitrate, the base for a great many patination recipes. Also nitric acid. You're unlikely to get far "trying out brews with plant fertiliser". In particular you'll find yourself with a weak mixture that acts very slowly. This is a bad thing. In particular, you might think it looks good but the stuff is so slow acting you don't realise it's still working - a week later it has turned to ugly crud. This is particularly a problem with chlorides. Washing and cleaning afterwards, maybe even deliberate neutralising, can be as important as the patination itself. This looks like a decent online starting pointhttp://www.sciencecompany.com/patinas/patinaformulas.htm Then of course there's Ganoksin for serious metalsmithing.http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nena...a-formulas.htm Green Goop, Brown Goop what is in the products, No idea. Many chemicals used in metal finishing (especially plating) are obscure and difficult to find, then only used in small doses. It's too awkward to buy your own, so you're better buying a ready-mixed patination fluid. This still applies, even if you're an industrial chemist (unless you can sneak through a 40 gallon drum of something that you only need a teaspoon of). Find your local finishing supplies people (Rustin or Liberon in the UK) and check their catalogues. It does work better if you buy the ready-mixed potions, then follow the recipes carefully. Thanks, Ganoskin has procedures listed I was not even aware of, the pre cleaning. I thought dirty was better. This is more an art form and experiment than anything. |
making new copper look aged green
ransley wrote:
How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable, Verdigris. I have used acids Hydrochloric, Hydroflouric, and find the Verdigris is a top layer and sometimes bluer or darker green than naturaly aged copper. snip I understand that urine works quite well. I heard a tale once - possibly apocryphal - of a university piping the urinals from the gents onto a copper dome... Andy |
making new copper look aged green
On 1/26/2010 4:33 PM, Appin wrote:
The from contains these words: How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable, Horse urine was the traditional material used in Eastern Canada where there were and are a lot of copper roofs in the Montréal - Ottawa area. An architect I used to know, claimed that the roofers were encouraged to pee on the copper roof... |
making new copper look aged green
Appin wrote:
The message from ransley contains these words: How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable, Horse urine was the traditional material used in Eastern Canada where there were and are a lot of copper roofs in the Montréal - Ottawa area. How do you get the horse onto the roof? wait for xmas and reindeer? [g] |
making new copper look aged green
On 26/01/2010 22:50, S Viemeister wrote:
On 1/26/2010 4:33 PM, Appin wrote: The from contains these words: How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable, Horse urine was the traditional material used in Eastern Canada where there were and are a lot of copper roofs in the Montréal - Ottawa area. An architect I used to know, claimed that the roofers were encouraged to pee on the copper roof... Easier than getting the horses to do so. -- Rod |
making new copper look aged green
In message , Rod
writes On 26/01/2010 22:50, S Viemeister wrote: On 1/26/2010 4:33 PM, Appin wrote: The from contains these words: How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable, Horse urine was the traditional material used in Eastern Canada where there were and are a lot of copper roofs in the Montréal - Ottawa area. An architect I used to know, claimed that the roofers were encouraged to pee on the copper roof... Easier than getting the horses to do so. I dunno once you got them on the roof, of course ... -- geoff |
making new copper look aged green
On Jan 26, 3:47*pm, Andy Champ wrote:
ransley wrote: * How do you get new copper to look naturaly aged green and stable, Verdigris. I have used acids Hydrochloric, Hydroflouric, and find the Verdigris is a top layer and sometimes bluer or darker green than naturaly aged copper. snip I understand that urine works quite well. *I heard a tale once - possibly apocryphal - of a university piping the urinals from the gents onto a copper dome... Andy Andy Warhol did some works in 1978 where he peed on paintings done in copper paint, they turned green. |
making new copper look aged green
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:50:03 -0500, S Viemeister
wrote: An architect I used to know, claimed that the roofers were encouraged to pee on the copper roof... Here copper won't go green anymore, it stays brown. An architect explained to me it's the lack of sulphur compounds in the air. Used to be the sulphur in coal used for heating (and ISTR heating oil and diesel is now low-sulphur) caused the green -- along with acid rain... Thomas Prufer |
making new copper look aged green
On 1/27/2010 3:15 AM, Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:50:03 -0500, S wrote: An architect I used to know, claimed that the roofers were encouraged to pee on the copper roof... Here copper won't go green anymore, it stays brown. An architect explained to me it's the lack of sulphur compounds in the air. Used to be the sulphur in coal used for heating (and ISTR heating oil and diesel is now low-sulphur) caused the green -- along with acid rain... That explains it - the architect who told me that, worked in Edinburgh in the 1960s - _lots_ of coal in the air. |
making new copper look aged green
"S Viemeister" wrote in message ... On 1/27/2010 3:15 AM, Thomas Prufer wrote: On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:50:03 -0500, S wrote: An architect I used to know, claimed that the roofers were encouraged to pee on the copper roof... Here copper won't go green anymore, it stays brown. An architect explained to me it's the lack of sulphur compounds in the air. Used to be the sulphur in coal used for heating (and ISTR heating oil and diesel is now low-sulphur) caused the green -- along with acid rain... That explains it - the architect who told me that, worked in Edinburgh in the 1960s - _lots_ of coal in the air. Google for ' liver of sulphur ' |
making new copper look aged green
Thomas Prufer wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:50:03 -0500, S Viemeister wrote: An architect I used to know, claimed that the roofers were encouraged to pee on the copper roof... Here copper won't go green anymore, it stays brown. An architect explained to me it's the lack of sulphur compounds in the air. Used to be the sulphur in coal used for heating (and ISTR heating oil and diesel is now low-sulphur) caused the green -- along with acid rain... I'm staggered that it took so long in the thread to come to this reply. T'was bleedin obvious to me, though I do have a chemistry degree and have been involved in environmental pollution issues for many years. Psst! Anyone got a can of tributyltin they don't want? I just want to keep the barnacles off the bottom of the boat! |
making new copper look aged green
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 23:16:18 -0000, "Clot"
wrote: Thomas Prufer wrote: On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 17:50:03 -0500, S Viemeister wrote: An architect I used to know, claimed that the roofers were encouraged to pee on the copper roof... Here copper won't go green anymore, it stays brown. An architect explained to me it's the lack of sulphur compounds in the air. Used to be the sulphur in coal used for heating (and ISTR heating oil and diesel is now low-sulphur) caused the green -- along with acid rain... I'm staggered that it took so long in the thread to come to this reply. T'was bleedin obvious to me, though I do have a chemistry degree and have been involved in environmental pollution issues for many years. Psst! Anyone got a can of tributyltin they don't want? I just want to keep the barnacles off the bottom of the boat! The easiest way is to keep the boat out of the water. Coincidentally this also means that you don't waste money on mooring fees, or harbour fees, or diesel. No sea sickness, torn sails, worn out engine, blocked toilet. Much reduced insurance fees are also a bonus. -- |
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