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Sue Mortimore
 
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Default Water softner for shower

We have just built a shower room on the third floor of a building we
own. The hot water is heated by a tank which does the entire building
and the cold water is direct mains.

We are using a monsoon 4bar pressure pump to increase the hot water
flow, which has its own supply from the tank on the ground floor.the
cold is mains fed

The shower works a treat but as we are in a hard water area the
build up of scale on the shower doors and wall is quite noticeable.

can some recommend a way of softening the water for the shower only,
the pipe work is plastic by the way

further question?

does the scale come from both the cold and hot water or is one worse
than the other for scale.

TIA

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Andy Hall
 
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On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 12:45:11 +0100, Sue Mortimore
wrote:

We have just built a shower room on the third floor of a building we
own. The hot water is heated by a tank which does the entire building
and the cold water is direct mains.

We are using a monsoon 4bar pressure pump to increase the hot water
flow, which has its own supply from the tank on the ground floor.the
cold is mains fed

The shower works a treat but as we are in a hard water area the
build up of scale on the shower doors and wall is quite noticeable.

can some recommend a way of softening the water for the shower only,
the pipe work is plastic by the way


The pipework doesn't really influence this.

The only completely effective solution to this is to install an ion
exchange water softener. That will provide softened water for as
many outlets as you like. You then normally leave one cold outlet
(kitchen tap typically) as a direct supply from the mains.

You could arrange for the plumbing just to feed the shower with
softened water, but it seems a bit pointless when you could cover the
entire house.

Other side benefits are that detergent and shampoo consumption are
reduced by a third to a half and hair etc. washing is much easier and
better.

Another option that may just about work, at least in reducing the
scale deposits is a phosphate dosing device such as a Combimate.
This would have a positive effect on the shower head not becoming
bunged up, but probably won't leave the shower as deposit free as
softened water.

The so called electronic or magnetic water conditioners are a complete
chocolate teapot for this application and probably most others.

further question?

does the scale come from both the cold and hot water or is one worse
than the other for scale.


There are two forms of hardness in water, temporary and permanent.

Salts related to temporary hardness are deposited out of the water
during heating whiuch is why hot water cylinders become caked with
scale. Permanent hardness is always there.





TIA


..andy

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Sue Mortimore
 
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Default Water softner for shower



The pipework doesn't really influence this.


I was thinking of a electrolytic scale inhibitor which is fitted in
the pipes themselves(do these come under the chocolate teapot heading)

The only completely effective solution to this is to install an ion
exchange water softener. That will provide softened water for as
many outlets as you like. You then normally leave one cold outlet
(kitchen tap typically) as a direct supply from the mains.

This would have to be fitted to the incoming mains ,before it
branches off to the hot water tank and mains fed cold ?

You could arrange for the plumbing just to feed the shower with
softened water, but it seems a bit pointless when you could cover the
entire house.


It not a house its a lareg geogian building whith over 20 bedrooms.
so it would be quite a major operation. The scale is not bad in the
other rooms.

Other side benefits are that detergent and shampoo consumption are
reduced by a third to a half and hair etc. washing is much easier and
better.

Another option that may just about work, at least in reducing the
scale deposits is a phosphate dosing device such as a Combimate.
This would have a positive effect on the shower head not becoming
bunged up, but probably won't leave the shower as deposit free as
softened water.

The so called electronic or magnetic water conditioners are a complete
chocolate teapot for this application and probably most others.

further question?

does the scale come from both the cold and hot water or is one worse
than the other for scale.


There are two forms of hardness in water, temporary and permanent.

Salts related to temporary hardness are deposited out of the water
during heating whiuch is why hot water cylinders become caked with
scale. Permanent hardness is always there.





TIA


.andy

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Andy Hall
 
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Default Water softner for shower

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:59:20 +0100, Sue Mortimore
wrote:



The pipework doesn't really influence this.


I was thinking of a electrolytic scale inhibitor which is fitted in
the pipes themselves(do these come under the chocolate teapot heading)


I am afraid so.

If you do a Google Groups search on this newsgroup you will find that
this subject comes up about every month to two. We have one
individual who has one of these and claims that it works. He is in a
minority of almost one. Pretty much everybody else who has bought
one reports no, little or inconsistent results.



The only completely effective solution to this is to install an ion
exchange water softener. That will provide softened water for as
many outlets as you like. You then normally leave one cold outlet
(kitchen tap typically) as a direct supply from the mains.

This would have to be fitted to the incoming mains ,before it
branches off to the hot water tank and mains fed cold ?


It can go where you like, really. If you just wanted to cover the
shower then you would need to soften the cold water going to it, plus
all the hot water unless you had separate water heating for the
shower.


You could arrange for the plumbing just to feed the shower with
softened water, but it seems a bit pointless when you could cover the
entire house.


It not a house its a lareg geogian building whith over 20 bedrooms.
so it would be quite a major operation. The scale is not bad in the
other rooms.


This does make it difficult, because you also have the running costs
from the use of salt in the softener.



..andy

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IMM
 
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Default Water softner for shower


"Sue Mortimore" wrote in message
...
We have just built a shower room on the third floor of a building we
own. The hot water is heated by a tank which does the entire building
and the cold water is direct mains.

We are using a monsoon 4bar pressure pump to increase the hot water
flow, which has its own supply from the tank on the ground floor.the
cold is mains fed

The shower works a treat but as we are in a hard water area the
build up of scale on the shower doors and wall is quite noticeable.

can some recommend a way of softening the water for the shower only,
the pipe work is plastic by the way


Fit a phosphor de-scaler on the mains supply, so will do the whole house,
hot and cold. It can't be on the drinking water and a double check valve
needs to be between it and the drinking supply. Available from B&Q,
Homebase etc for about £45 with £15 per year for the cartridge. It will not
remove existing scale, so use Viakal for that.

further question?

does the scale come from both the cold and hot water or is one worse
than the other for scale.


Both, but hot is far worse.


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IMM
 
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Default Water softner for shower


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

The so called electronic or magnetic water conditioners are a complete
chocolate teapot for this application and probably most others.


I have one of these and it works. There is a current thread on this topic
with a number of people having success.



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  #7   Report Post  
IMM
 
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Default Water softner for shower


"Sue Mortimore" wrote in message
...

It not a house its a lareg geogian building whith over 20 bedrooms.
so it would be quite a major operation. The scale is not bad in the
other rooms.


Phosphor descalers come in 15mm and 22mm. How many bathrooms?


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IMM
 
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Default Water softner for shower

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

I was thinking of a electrolytic scale inhibitor which is fitted in
the pipes themselves(do these come under the chocolate teapot heading)


I am afraid so.

If you do a Google Groups search on this newsgroup you will find that
this subject comes up about every month to two. We have one
individual who has one of these and claims that it works. He is in a
minority of almost one. Pretty much everybody else who has bought
one reports no, little or inconsistent results.


You should Goggle a bit more, "many" claim they work. I have come across
many very large industrial units that work very well in hopitals and the
likes.

Mine is an Aqua Dial, who make salt softeners and phosphor de-scalers too.



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  #9   Report Post  
IMM
 
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Default Water softner for shower


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 01:09:22 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

The so called electronic or magnetic water conditioners are a complete
chocolate teapot for this application and probably most others.


I have one of these and it works. There is a current thread on this

topic
with a number of people having success.

Well, one anyway :-)


Your eyesight is failing.


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  #10   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
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Default Water softner for shower

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 01:20:30 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 01:09:22 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

The so called electronic or magnetic water conditioners are a complete
chocolate teapot for this application and probably most others.

I have one of these and it works. There is a current thread on this

topic
with a number of people having success.

Well, one anyway :-)


Your eyesight is failing.

Do you think that some snake oil from the shop where you bought your
Water Wonder would help?


..andy

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  #11   Report Post  
IMM
 
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Default Water softner for shower


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 01:20:30 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 01:09:22 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

The so called electronic or magnetic water conditioners are a

complete
chocolate teapot for this application and probably most others.

I have one of these and it works. There is a current thread on this

topic
with a number of people having success.

Well, one anyway :-)


Your eyesight is failing.

Do you think that some snake oil from the shop where you bought your
Water Wonder would help?


Homebase the shop. The make is Aqua Dial. Isn't your salt softener Aqua
Dial? They probably have this oil on the parts list.



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Charles M Atkinson
 
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Default Water softner for shower


"IMM" wrote in message
...
The so called electronic or magnetic water conditioners

are a complete
chocolate teapot for this application and probably most

others.

I have one of these and it works. There is a current

thread on this topic
with a number of people having success.


Don't be coy -- what's the title of the thread?


  #13   Report Post  
Andy Hall
 
Posts: n/a
Default Water softner for shower

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:17:45 +0100, "Charles M Atkinson"
wrote:

I have just used Google to search this newsgroup for all of
the words "electronic magnetic water conditioner" and the
most recent hit was in March 2003 -- not what you'd call
current.


That's current enough. If you were to search using keywords of "IMM"
and "water" you will get about 3000 articles. Qualify further with
"magnetic" or similar and it comes down to about 160 in several
threads which all tend to be very similar. Generally the ratio of
bad to good experience is at least 10:1 as measured by the number of
posts for and against.





Enough of the touchy cut and thrust of newsgroup banter.
:-) On to the meat ...

I'm beginning to understand that "physical conditioners"
could be a better choice than a water softener if you:

a) don't mind the possibility of it being useless (as
sometimes happens, hence all the stress on money back
guarantees)


I am always suspicious of products which claim wonderful things,
backed up with pseudo-science and a money back guarantee.
The price point is usually at the level where a significant proportion
of people who buy won't bother to return the product when it doesn't
work.



b) are short of space


Most domestic water softeners will easily fit the space under a sink.


c) only want scale reduction, not water softening


Fine, but the main purpose for that is to prolong the life of
appliances that heat the water. For little more cost than a "water
conditioner", one can buy a polyphosphate doser which definitely does
this job, so I don't see the point of messing around with something
that might or might not do anything and there being little way of
knowing until the damage is done.


d) are worried about having to load salt every month or so


That's an economic no-brainer. In one of the threads I posted some
data about the savings in detergents and shampoos that are made by
using ion-exchange softened water. Overall this easily covers the
cost of the salt and may even make a small contribution to the capital
cost of the equipment - not that that is large anyway.


..andy

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IMM
 
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Default Water softner for shower


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:17:45 +0100, "Charles M Atkinson"
wrote:

I have just used Google to search this newsgroup for all of
the words "electronic magnetic water conditioner" and the
most recent hit was in March 2003 -- not what you'd call
current.


That's current enough. If you were to search using keywords of "IMM"
and "water" you will get about 3000 articles. Qualify further with
"magnetic" or similar and it comes down to about 160 in several
threads which all tend to be very similar. Generally the ratio of
bad to good experience is at least 10:1 as measured by the number of
posts for and against.


Not so, in those who have actually used them, unlike yourself and other
windbags.

Enough of the touchy cut and thrust of newsgroup banter.
:-) On to the meat ...

I'm beginning to understand that "physical conditioners"
could be a better choice than a water softener if you:

a) don't mind the possibility of it being useless (as
sometimes happens, hence all the stress on money back
guarantees)


I am always suspicious of products which claim wonderful things,
backed up with pseudo-science and a money back guarantee.
The price point is usually at the level where a significant proportion
of people who buy won't bother to return the product when it doesn't
work.


Mine works. These are used extensively in industry, where I first came
across them about 25 years ago.

b) are short of space


Most domestic water softeners will easily fit the space under a sink.


And take a useful cupboard.

c) only want scale reduction, not water softening


Fine, but the main purpose for that is to prolong the life of
appliances that heat the water. For little more cost than a "water
conditioner", one can buy a polyphosphate doser which definitely does
this job, so I don't see the point of messing around with something
that might or might not do anything and there being little way of
knowing until the damage is done.


d) are worried about having to load salt every month or so


And so you should be.



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Andy Hall
 
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Default Water softner for shower

On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:26:24 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:17:45 +0100, "Charles M Atkinson"
wrote:

I have just used Google to search this newsgroup for all of
the words "electronic magnetic water conditioner" and the
most recent hit was in March 2003 -- not what you'd call
current.


That's current enough. If you were to search using keywords of "IMM"
and "water" you will get about 3000 articles. Qualify further with
"magnetic" or similar and it comes down to about 160 in several
threads which all tend to be very similar. Generally the ratio of
bad to good experience is at least 10:1 as measured by the number of
posts for and against.


Not so, in those who have actually used them, unlike yourself and other
windbags.


In fact I did try one some years ago and found that it didn't work
even to the extent of making a difference to a kettle filled from a
nearby tap.



Enough of the touchy cut and thrust of newsgroup banter.
:-) On to the meat ...

I'm beginning to understand that "physical conditioners"
could be a better choice than a water softener if you:

a) don't mind the possibility of it being useless (as
sometimes happens, hence all the stress on money back
guarantees)


I am always suspicious of products which claim wonderful things,
backed up with pseudo-science and a money back guarantee.
The price point is usually at the level where a significant proportion
of people who buy won't bother to return the product when it doesn't
work.


Mine works. These are used extensively in industry, where I first came
across them about 25 years ago.


This is complete misinformation. All of the references to industrial
use are for closed recirculating systems with proportionately much
larger conditioners than would be used domestically.




b) are short of space


Most domestic water softeners will easily fit the space under a sink.


And take a useful cupboard.


That was an example. There are plenty of other options.



c) only want scale reduction, not water softening


Fine, but the main purpose for that is to prolong the life of
appliances that heat the water. For little more cost than a "water
conditioner", one can buy a polyphosphate doser which definitely does
this job, so I don't see the point of messing around with something
that might or might not do anything and there being little way of
knowing until the damage is done.


d) are worried about having to load salt every month or so


And so you should be.


For what reason? Certainly nothing economic or even ecological when
the reduction in detergent consumption is considered.

If you're worried about lifting, then there are now 5kg and 10kg packs
of salt.



..andy

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IMM
 
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Default Water softner for shower


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 23:26:24 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 22:17:45 +0100, "Charles M Atkinson"
wrote:

I have just used Google to search this newsgroup for all of
the words "electronic magnetic water conditioner" and the
most recent hit was in March 2003 -- not what you'd call
current.

That's current enough. If you were to search using keywords of "IMM"
and "water" you will get about 3000 articles. Qualify further with
"magnetic" or similar and it comes down to about 160 in several
threads which all tend to be very similar. Generally the ratio of
bad to good experience is at least 10:1 as measured by the number of
posts for and against.


Not so, in those who have actually used them, unlike yourself and other
windbags.


In fact I did try one some years ago and found that it didn't work
even to the extent of making a difference to a kettle filled from a
nearby tap.


I don't believe you Andy. Also the better makes work better. Surprise,
surprise, as Cilla says.

Mine works. These are used extensively in industry, where I first came
across them about 25 years ago.


This is complete misinformation. All of the references to industrial
use are for closed recirculating systems


That you have read, and not had contact with.

with proportionately much
larger conditioners than would be used domestically.


Go away!! They are larger for hospitals???




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IMM
 
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Default Water softner for shower


"Charles M Atkinson" wrote in message
...

I don't see the point of messing around with
something that might or might not do anything
and there being little way of
knowing until the damage is done.


Good point -- that might be the way to go


What damage?? No plumbing is involved. An old lady can fit one.



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Andy Hall
 
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Default Water softner for shower

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:48:42 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


..

In fact I did try one some years ago and found that it didn't work
even to the extent of making a difference to a kettle filled from a
nearby tap.


I don't believe you Andy.


That's your affair.

Also the better makes work better.


What defines "better make" and why does this allegedly make a
difference?



Mine works. These are used extensively in industry, where I first came
across them about 25 years ago.


This is complete misinformation. All of the references to industrial
use are for closed recirculating systems


That you have read, and not had contact with.


So give me a substantiable reference to where this is used
industrially in an environment where the water is not being
circulated.



..andy

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IMM
 
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Default Water softner for shower


"Sue Mortimore" wrote in message
...

does the scale come from both the cold and hot water or is one worse
than the other for scale.


See this recent thread on Google.
"Electronic Water Descalers / softeners"

http://tinyurl.com/adis




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Andy Hall
 
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Default Water softner for shower

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:29:57 +0100, "Tony"
wrote:

If you have a septic tank you might worry about the salt concentration....


You might think so, but don't forget that the volume of detergents is
reduced.

Have a look at this article

http://www.swopnet.com/geo_wastewate...t_To_Know.html

I found several others which suggest much the same - that increased
sodium concentration within reason is beneficial to bacteria growth,
and that provided the tank is sized adequately for the water resulting
from regeneration then there is not a problem.



..andy

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Andy Hall
 
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On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 13:22:11 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 12:48:42 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


.

In fact I did try one some years ago and found that it didn't work
even to the extent of making a difference to a kettle filled from a
nearby tap.

I don't believe you Andy.


That's your affair.

Also the better makes work better.


What defines "better make" and why does this allegedly make a
difference?


Use a car analogy.

???


..andy

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